Comments about 2018 Commitments

Coach Dragum's son I assume? If so, doesn't he have at least one other younger son?

Yes, Coach Dragum's son.

The next time someone on here tells me to stop trying to learn the ropes for my 2020 and just enjoy him being 12.... I'm going to point them to this thread  

 

Jack & Kyle are at the top of their class, not only in VA, but nationwide.  

 

I would encourage you to continue to enjoy your son being 12 and encourage him to work hard at whatever he does.  You can do all of your background work of understanding the process but your son has to drive this with his ability and hard work.  

   

 

Totally understood!

My son has played with + against them, they are exceptional talents.

Two very good ball players.  Congrats and best of luck in your future on and off the field.

Florida woman gives birth to 14.1 pound baby over the weekend. Doctors say the 2033 recruit committed to Florida State before leaving the hospital.

well played!! Free shoes U is he playing football or baseball there? is it Jameis Winston kid? does he get cash for a no show job or does he just get to shop lift around town for his college years?

FSU LOL what a joke they are.

Brought over from "2018 Commits" Thread:

 

Ohio Dad posted:

Awesome for those young men!  My question........Why would a 2018 verbally commit?  What benefit is that to the young man, and/or the school?  I know there have been discussions on HSBBW regarding this, but it seems these early verbals would cause more harm than good.  Wonder how many actually will end up at the "early verbal" school?  Not trying to be negative, but just trying to see the positives.  Again, congrats to those involved! 

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My response:

 

For the school, they lock up a premium talent before another school does.  After all, coaches are paid to win.  For the player, he is promised a scholarship to the school of his choice when he graduates, provided he makes the grade academically and continues to progress on the field.  There are a handful of occurrences each year where an "early verbal" does not actually sign with the school due to issues on either end (or both).  For this reason, we counsel kids extensively about committing early.

 

In Jack's case, with which I am familiar, he can't go wrong with UVA.  A top academic school and a CWS runner up last year.  It is also in-state, affordable and near his family.

 

For Kyle, a somewhat similar story.  He lives near Liberty (a program on the rise), he is very comfortable with the school as well as Coach Toman and his brother will be a freshman at Liberty next year.  A win-win.

Much can happen in that time frame--coach switches schools, grades aren't what admissions wants, etc. I always wondered how an "early commit" feels when the coach recruits 2 or three others for his similar position after he "commits."

keewartson was the first commit of his class to his college, and the coach promptly recruited two more players for "his similar position" after he committed.  

 

What keewartson did....and others in his position (pun intended) should do....is work their butt off.  He also will need to beat out several upperclassmen to play this year.

 

Don't expect the coach to recruit only one player for the position.  If not this year, then surely the next year there will be more of the position coming in. The coach needs to account for injury, grades, yada yada yada, that can shorten his roster.   keewartson's coach told him something on the order of "after pitchers and catchers, he would like fill his roster with all short stops."  That being said, be versatile and ready to move into any position the coach puts you in.

 

 

LCA students get quite a tuition discount (up to 100%) at Liberty University.  This would be a no-brainer for many families.  A good win-win for both sides.

If you're a pitcher, you should expect that your and every other recruiting class will include numerous pitchers. 

 

Also true if you're a shortstop.  It's often the case that the kid playing SS in HS is just the team's best athlete, and SS may not actually be his best position fit.  In college, you'll see many teams with several former SS's on the field, because when recruiting the coaches saw an athlete who could hit.  The guy who isn't quite fast enough moves to third.  The guy whose arm isn't quite strong enough to throw from the hole moves to second.  The guy who could hit but maybe wasn't as fluid on grounders moved to LF.  One guy wins the competition and starts at SS.

 

An interesting guy to look back on is Phil Gosselin, a PA private school SS who came to UVA as a SS but almost never played there.  Lots of time at 2B and in LF, also as DH.  Last year I saw him playing for the Atlanta Braves on a callup from Gwinnett.  He started at shortstop!  You just never know.

I truly respect those that have posted in the thread so far and I think their opinions are valuable.  That said, I can see what's in it for the school - they lock the kid up with ZERO risk to the program.  If he doesn't develop academically or athletically, they simply walk away.  What I can't figure out is what's in it for the player.  I totally understand and respect the young man's situation in wanting to play for his home state school that offers stellar academics and top of the top baseball.  However, if he's that good, won't UVA (and Liberty) still be interested in a year, or two, or three?  That kid is now essentially off the market.  Why would you want to lock out other potential opportunities at such a young age?  I just fail to see the advantage to the player.  If he's that special, UVA will still want him when he's old enough to make a somewhat more considered decision. Just seems like the kid takes all the risk for very little to no gain.

 

All that said, I really hope it works out for both of them. 

Sorry 9and7.  I condensed your reply to address the two sentences that stuck out the most for me.

In GHHS jr's case, several D1s made several offers.  We got the same story from every one of them:  The longer GHHS jr waited to commit, the less athletic money would be available.  As redbird5 stated above, many upper level (and mid-level) D1s try to lock up the talent as early as possible.  In many cases, when one player decides to wait a year (or two, or three), the program will simply move on to their next prospect at that position.

 

I'm not saying early verbals are the way to go for every player.  Each player (and family) has to look at the advantages and disadvantages and make their own decision.  In our case, I asked every coach three questions before I would even allow the recruitment to progress further:  1)  Can your school make him a better man, 2)  Can he do something (employment and connection wise) with the degree and 3)  Can you make him a better ballplayer.  If those three questions were answered in the affirmative, then and only then did we get into percentages, deadlines for replies, and whatever else.  It just so happened we managed to find a great school with a great pitching coach (GHHS jr and he clicked immediately) and got a great offer, so GHHS jr committed early.

 

GHHS  Hit the nail on the head.

 

It certainly is well within the players rights to choose to wait - but there is a risk in waiting as well. 

 

Opportunity knocks and you don't have to answer the door - but someone else might be ready and take that spot. Right or wrong the thing I see mostly is that coaches have the opinion that "a kid either wants to play here or not" - and they aren't always as patient as one might like them to be.   The upstanding programs out there don't over-offer scholarships so it's not like a school can just make a bunch of promises and then pare that down to their 11.7 come signing day (unless you are Bobby Petrino of course).

 

Some programs do that so it's caveat emptor when dealing with them.  But generally speaking I would guess the early commit (2-3 years out) hits at about a 90%-95% rate - which is pretty solid. 

Regarding recruiting others for your position...the coaches are always trying to recruit your replacement. That's a fact of life at any level.

Unless a recruit steps up and becomes a stud, locked in starter the recruiting coach will spend the next three years of his baseball career looking for someone better. Some players start for a year or two and lose their positions to freshmen or JuCo transfers. Thirty-five players show up for fall ball believing they will be one of the 18-20 impact players. 15-17 of them will be wrong.

 

I don't know if the new transfer sit out rule has changed the percentages. But about five years ago I read 50% of D1 players transfer to play somewhere else. I'm guessing now they transfer to top D2s or go 4-2-4.

Gotta jump in because I think parents and players will increasingly wrestle with this as schools attempt to lock in talent earlier and earlier. As the dad of a boy who could've committed to a major D1 following his freshman year, but who committed to a different major D1 midway through his junior year a couple weeks ago, here are a few random thoughts:

 

• If it's a young man's DREAM school, go for it. If not, don't.
• On balance, committing early benefits the school more than it does the ballplayer.
• Schools are accepting verbals from more players than they will ultimately follow through on -- so know that going in.
• Parents' and players' egos too often interfere with sound judgement.
• FEAR that "I will not be recruited" should never be a reason to say yes.
• In the very near future, we'll be talking more and more about schools that broke promises -- and about ballplayers "decommitting" like they do in football.
• GHHS asks exactly the right questions: 1) Can your school make him a better man, 2) Can he do something (employment and connection wise) with the degree and 3) Can you make him a better ballplayer.
• Those questions are age-agnostic. 

 

 

In regards to what RJM (transfers away from D1 and losing your spot) and jp24 (accepting more verbals than they can honor) said, I agree.  That's exactly why you and your son need to do your homework.  One of GHHS jr's offers came from a school known to "over recruit".  We didn't feel that was the case in my son's situation, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't enter into his decision not to attend that school.

 

Ask to see "the board" if you get a chance to take a visit (official or otherwise).  Every team has one.  It's a prospect board that lists the prospects they're watching (both HS and JuCo), by year, position and HS/state in which they play.  It pretty much lays out their recruiting strategy for future players.  If your son isn't on it, they're not serious (yet) about recruiting him and/or they're over recruiting.  If they don't want to show you, well, there's a whole other bunch of questions.

redbird5:  My apologies.  You've already moved this thread once and here we are morphing it into something that probably doesn't even belong in the VA forum now.  I'll leave it at this:

 

Early verbals (2018s are freshman ballplayers right now) should only be made after doing a LOT of homework.  In the end, it's a case-by-case situation/decision.  If a player is an absolute beast as a freshman and gets a chance to commit to his dream school, more power to him.

I came across another example of how shortstops can migrate over time.

 

Hanover 2013 SS Andrew Knizner was a highly sought after talent who committed to N.C. State.  I know that a big factor in his commitment was that he was promised he would come in and start at SS right away.  Well, he did start right away, but it turned out to be at 3B.  He had a stellar freshman season last year.

 

This year, I see he's the team's starting catcher.

 

The operative word is not shortstop, it's "starting."  If you can hit and you're an athlete, you're going to find your way into the lineup somewhere. 

As someone with close knowledge of Kiz's recruitment, I will say that Midlo's recollection of events is not correct. I can say with 100 percent accuracy that Andrew was never promised a starting position anywhere on the field, much less SS where a guy named Trea Turner was playing.

 

Andrew was a straight A student that wanted to play at the highest level possible and study engineering. Going into the winter (jan-feb) of his Senior year, he had one offer to that point, Valpo. He certainly had some interest from bigger schools, but with only one committable offer to that point, not sure that would quantify as "highly sought after", or as someone that would expect a starting SS position over a future 1st round draft pick at an ACC program.

 

Kiz's opportunity came when a Hanover assistant coach contacted a former Wolfpack All-American about Andrew, who inturn contacted Avent and Kiz was invited to a prospect camp. Andrew has made the most of his opportunity to this point and he is maintaining an A average in his engineering curriculum.

 

I am sure Midlo is correct about recruiting "Sales pitch" and playing time in general...but that was certainly not the case with Andrew Knizner....and for the record Jack Dragum was not promised a starting position either...

 

 

 

 

 

Correction...he got the offer his Junior year...

HawksBP's version sounds more in line with what I know of Knizner's recruitment. 

 

We've had 100 EvoShield Canes sign with a Division I school in the 2015 class, including a few Perfect Game & Under Armour All Americans.  I don't know of any who were promised to start right away.  Coaches will guarantee the "opportunity" to start  which means you will have to compete for the spot but NONE of them were promised playing time, much less a starting spot.

 

 

Regrettably, you are both without the benefit of discussions I had with the Knizner family at the time.  (Andrew had committed to our team in the late fall of his junior year, and that resulted in our being very much in the loop during the period when he committed.  He later decided that, having committed, he no longer needed to travel, so in the end he never actually played for us.  Our loss.)

 

I don't believe I can go into further detail here, out in the open and behind their backs.  But I can tell you that what I set forth above is 100% accurate.

I would add that some of the views as to Trea Turner were offered with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.  At the time Andrew committed, Turner was in the fall of his freshman year.  He had been drafted the preceding June, so obviously everyone knew he had a ton of talent.  But as this all shows, whether someone who played SS in HS ultimately sticks at SS in college is a very open question.  I cannot speak to what NCSU had in mind for Turner before the 2012 season began.  Obviously Turner ultimately stuck at SS, performed brilliantly and earned himself a first round position last June.  If Andrew keeps performing at the level he did last year, then by June 2016 he may be high on a lot of draft boards as well.  Indeed, his stock at catcher may well be higher than it would've been anywhere else.

regrettably, you are without the benefit of text messages I exchanged directly with Kiz yesterday asking him whether or not he was promised a starting position at shortstop...to which he responded he was never promised a position as a freshman or even say he would be a shortstop...when he was offered the scholly they had never seen him play in a game...but you are implying he was promised a starting position at a position that was held by an all-american...after he attended a prospect camp! 

 

Are you now saying the actual player does not know if he was was promised a starting position?

 

I also find it interesting you display Andrew as a Cardinal alumni when he never played a game for your organization or to my knowledge even attended a practice.  Kind of stretch right there.  No?

You guys are joking right, does it really matter, he said she said. I hope you guys have a great spring.  

Andrew's recruitment was handled with substantial involvement of our program at a time when he considered himself a part of our program and we felt likewise.  There is a lot that goes on off the field, as you may know.  So to answer the "kind of a stretch?" question is, not at all.

 

As to the other matter, I have vivid and, I am confident, accurate recollections of what went down at the time.  If someone as of today wants to tell it differently, that's up to them.  Beyond that, I do not believe it's appropriate for me to get into it further.  Frankly, at this point, I'm sorry I even brought it up.  I thought it was a useful story, but we seem to have gotten sidetracked.

Midlo Dad,

 

It is clear that we disagree on the subject of Andrew Knizner's recruitment. Maybe our definition of substantial and your definition of substantial differ greatly. We have remained silent on this subject for 3 years while your organization took credit for Andrew going to NC State. Your comments in this thread brought us out of our silence. We fee strongly that you have misrepresented your role in his recruitment.

 

 

We work really hard to find our baseball players a place to play in college if that is what they want to do. We also know that you guys do good things for your players as well. We congratulate you on that!

 

If you wish to discuss this further, we invite you to practice to talk to us. We will not respond anymore to this thread. Practice starts Monday and we have a lot of work to do Best of luck to you guys this summer! 

Honestly, I don't know who you are.

 

I also don't know why you want to argue about this.  All I can glean is that you have some info from someone that you have chosen to believe despite the fact that, as far as I know, you and I have never spoken.  Nothing I can do about that.

 

I had a nice point to make about someone I consider a fine young man who is having a very successful time of it at N.C. State.

 

Beyond that, I don't feel comfortable discussing his personal business in this open forum. 

I hate to wade into this debate but in reading the threads above, it should be pointed out that Trea Turner, in 2012, played 3B for the Wolfpack. He didn't move to shortstop until his sophomore year.