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I know there is a similar thread but I can't seem to find the answer I need!! LOL!!!

My kid had been asked to call a D1 school nearby and one he likes.One of the AAU parents parents said -oh you don't want to look there -they take on over 50 kids then cut down to  30.When I asked how they knew this I didn't get a tangible answer. A different parent said no - that they only cut 2 or 3 kids each year.

SO.... other than asking the college coach - how do you find out which programs take on a lot of freshmen which they then cut and which ones don't?  I am willing to do the research but have no idea where to start. We are so naive going into this that I figured that once you are signed to a school that you play all 4 years!!!! Is there  thread on this board that could help me understand the process?

Thanks for the help! This board is amazing!!!!

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You say it's "a nearby D1"....does your son know anyone currently in the program or know anyone that does?  That would be the easiest way to start.  Your location says "north"....there are a lot of D1's in the "north"....lol.  My son is at a D1 and he has a lot of friends playing at D1's.....I'm sure you don't want to name the school.....but if you want to PM me with the name of the school, I will do my best to get you an answer.....there may be someone else here that has knowledge of the school....I'm thinking  we can probably get you an answer without having to post the info publicly. 

Good advice so far.

"We are so naive going into this that I figured that once you are signed to a school that you play all 4 years!!!! "  

Wish that were the case. There are zero guarantees at any school. That's why it's important to do lots of research before selecting the school.

You're in the right place for that research. Take all the help you can get from the experience ones here on this sight. 

Good luck!

BB-Mom,

One way to research a school’s recruiting history over past 5 years or so is to study the PG college commits page.   PG has a wealth of info on their college commits page.  Example, Go to Big State U’s PG commits page for 2015 for example.   They may have had 10 kids committed per PG for that 2015 class.   Next go to Big State’s archive for rosters the past few years (usually found as a tab on same page as Big State’s current roster).  See how many of those 10 commits were on the 2016 roster?  2017 roster?   Etc.   See if or how often they played.  

Takes some time but you can get a feel for a program’s last five years of recruiting history to see how kids fair.   

Any more clarification questions on this PM me.   

Last edited by #1 Assistant Coach

Power 5 scholarships are now 4-year guarantees....BUT that is the scholarship money only....no guarantee that you'll be playing baseball.  If they cut you you keep the $$$ if you decide to stay at the school

Other D1's you are guaranteed the scholarship for the first year.  After that it's year to year...no guarantees on if you'll get any money....or how much.

compare posted:

"There are zero guarantees at any school."

There are schools out there that guarantee 4 years.

Starting in 2013 NCAA allowed schools to offer multi year scholarships. You sign your NLI and along with that comes a financial agreement that outlines amounts for years 2,3,4 & 5 if needed. The NLI is for one year. If the coach decides to cut you after the first year, he can and will. The financial part of the agreement still stands until you leave the school or the timeframe ends. 

Very few, if any stay. Most move on to the next school where they are wanted and have a better chance of playing.

Picked Off posted:
compare posted:

"There are zero guarantees at any school."

There are schools out there that guarantee 4 years.

Starting in 2013 NCAA allowed schools to offer multi year scholarships. You sign your NLI and along with that comes a financial agreement that outlines amounts for years 2,3,4 & 5 if needed. The NLI is for one year. If the coach decides to cut you after the first year, he can and will. The financial part of the agreement still stands until you leave the school or the timeframe ends. 

Very few, if any stay. Most move on to the next school where they are wanted and have a better chance of playing.

Not sure what you mean when you state that the NLI is for one year.  The coach can (and do) cut NLI signees in year one.  Have watched this firsthand with freshmen this fall being cut.

Because they signed their NLI, they are "required" to attend the institution for one academic year as a full time student.  If they do not fulfill this, and they enroll in another institution participating in the NLI program, they are required to complete one full academic year at that institution before being eligible to compete in intercollegiate athletics.  This can be appealed, but without appeal and favorable ruling, the student athlete must sit out.

So to that point, the school is under NO obligation to not cut the player in year one.

As for the financial agreement, the school IS obligated to meet the terms provided the student remains in good standing.  As you mention, most want to play and will leave, freeing the institution of the financial agreement at that time.

All the NLI really does is ban any active recruitment of the athlete from other schools and lock the student athlete into penalties should they transfer to another school.  Nothing in the NLI guarantees that the team retain a player in year one.

Nuke83 posted:
Picked Off posted:
compare posted:

"There are zero guarantees at any school."

There are schools out there that guarantee 4 years.

Starting in 2013 NCAA allowed schools to offer multi year scholarships. You sign your NLI and along with that comes a financial agreement that outlines amounts for years 2,3,4 & 5 if needed. The NLI is for one year. If the coach decides to cut you after the first year, he can and will. The financial part of the agreement still stands until you leave the school or the timeframe ends. 

Very few, if any stay. Most move on to the next school where they are wanted and have a better chance of playing.

Not sure what you mean when you state that the NLI is for one year.  The coach can (and do) cut NLI signees in year one.  Have watched this firsthand with freshmen this fall being cut.

Because they signed their NLI, they are "required" to attend the institution for one academic year as a full time student.  If they do not fulfill this, and they enroll in another institution participating in the NLI program, they are required to complete one full academic year at that institution before being eligible to compete in intercollegiate athletics.  This can be appealed, but without appeal and favorable ruling, the student athlete must sit out.

So to that point, the school is under NO obligation to not cut the player in year one.

As for the financial agreement, the school IS obligated to meet the terms provided the student remains in good standing.  As you mention, most want to play and will leave, freeing the institution of the financial agreement at that time.

All the NLI really does is ban any active recruitment of the athlete from other schools and lock the student athlete into penalties should they transfer to another school.  Nothing in the NLI guarantees that the team retain a player in year one.

Like I originally said "zero guarantees".

Nuke83, good call, I did not intend to infer that an NLI player could not be cut. Only that it was for a one year period. 

Picked Off posted:
Nuke83 posted:
Picked Off posted:
compare posted:

"There are zero guarantees at any school."

There are schools out there that guarantee 4 years.

Starting in 2013 NCAA allowed schools to offer multi year scholarships. You sign your NLI and along with that comes a financial agreement that outlines amounts for years 2,3,4 & 5 if needed. The NLI is for one year. If the coach decides to cut you after the first year, he can and will. The financial part of the agreement still stands until you leave the school or the timeframe ends. 

Very few, if any stay. Most move on to the next school where they are wanted and have a better chance of playing.

Not sure what you mean when you state that the NLI is for one year.  The coach can (and do) cut NLI signees in year one.  Have watched this firsthand with freshmen this fall being cut.

Because they signed their NLI, they are "required" to attend the institution for one academic year as a full time student.  If they do not fulfill this, and they enroll in another institution participating in the NLI program, they are required to complete one full academic year at that institution before being eligible to compete in intercollegiate athletics.  This can be appealed, but without appeal and favorable ruling, the student athlete must sit out.

So to that point, the school is under NO obligation to not cut the player in year one.

As for the financial agreement, the school IS obligated to meet the terms provided the student remains in good standing.  As you mention, most want to play and will leave, freeing the institution of the financial agreement at that time.

All the NLI really does is ban any active recruitment of the athlete from other schools and lock the student athlete into penalties should they transfer to another school.  Nothing in the NLI guarantees that the team retain a player in year one.

Like I originally said "zero guarantees".

Nuke83, good call, I did not intend to infer that an NLI player could not be cut. Only that it was for a one year period. 

The only thing that has a "zero guarantee" is the fact that there is NO GUARANTEE that a kid will EVER see the field.  I've seen kids get big $$$$, don't show up ready to work in the fall and leave before spring practice.  The athletic money is GUARANTEED...and it's spelled out for you in the paperwork you get when you sign your NLI.  If the financials say it's $xxxx for four years the kid gets the $$$ for 4 years....even if he gets cut his sophomore year.  If it's a 1 year award...then he's guaranteed that money the first year....nothing more.  You can't say "zero guarantees"....like it's some crapshoot and the kid is blindly signing his life away....everything regarding $$$$  is clearly spelled out.

RJM posted:

Signing an NLI does not “guarantee” a coach will not tell a player “We don’t see you fitting into our plans.”  How many kids hear this and stay for the guaranteed four year scholarship? Chances are if this is the talent level the player only received 25%.

Agreed, and I doubt that most kids would stay....but who knows...25% for 4 years at a state public school may be enough difference for some kids to be able to afford college.  Leaving a state public school to attend a big $$$ D2 or D3 may not be feasible.....and at that point (maybe after a kid's sophomore year) the kid may just take the $$$ and stay.  I said that the baseball aspect is never guaranteed...but the amount of money a kid can have to  put toward school is in writing.

BackstopDad32 posted:

Pretty sure all NLI guys count towards the 35 whether they are actually rostered or not that first spring  

To the OP.  Have you son find a player on a visit or on Twitter and ask.  Haven’t seen a player yet who won’t answer most any question posed to them. 

An exception can occur in the case of an injured player. Normally all players with athletic scholarships must count toward the 35 roster total, but in our son's case the school was able to apply to the NCAA for a medical hardship waiver to replace him on the roster his freshman season while he rehabbed from TJ incurred during his senior year in HS. He still received his athletic aid and they graciously listed him on the website roster but they weren't prevented from fielding a full team by having him take up a spot when he wouldn't be competing. In addition, he ended up getting paid to run the scoreboard that spring 😊

  Ask the coach.  Different schools have different philosophies on rosters.  When we were going through the recruiting process, we asked every coach how many kids they would bring in during the fall and everyone answered truthfully.  One school said they only bring in 35.  I have checked their fall roster the past couple of years and they only list 35 players.  Most said they will have 40-42 players in the fall.  Players will get hurt.  Players will become academically ineligible and some will not develop and will be redshirted and some kids will quit or move on to another school.  

   During sons last fall playing showcase, he played a tournament at a top 10 program.  Sons team was playing the first game of the night and the school was playing a scrimmage. They had 52 players in uniform and another 4 or 5 walking around in shorts.   This school hasn't posted a fall roster for the past 3 years either.

  

 

I apologize for being "late to the party" on this discussion, although I recall that my upcoming point was included in a thread on another Forum.  

The "guarantee" of the Power Five conferences - that an athletic scholarship won't be reduced as long as the athlete maintains good academic standing and conduct while attending the university - only applies when an athlete receives an athletic scholarship in their initial year attending the university (either as a freshman or a transfer).  

For example, if an incoming freshman was given a two-year agreement showing 0% in Year One and 50% in Year Two, there is no guarantee that he will get 50% in Year Three.  

There are also other examples where a scholarship can be reduced but would be known "up front", such as a multi-year agreement granting 30% in Year One, 0% in Year Two, and 30% in Year Three.  

My 2017 was recruited by two D1 schools who guaranteed him a spot on the roster for 4 years.  Knowing those programs, I believed both.  They didn't have a lot of baseball money, so this was their pitch to him.  So to make statements like there are zero guarantees does not ring true for me.  There's close to 300 D1 schools, so there's going to be more than one recruiting philosopy out there.  That said, it's certainly wise to fact check those types of offers.  And the guarantee in that case 100% relies on the integrity of the coaches in question.

I think most folks when they make that statement mean it in the context of no guarantees for playing time as much as a roster spot.   Most parents and players don’t hear it that way either .  IMO most go to college expecting that the others won’t play and the others will be the ones cut  

From what I have seen there aren’t a lot of players who are happy putting in 40+ hours a week on baseball and sitting on the bench for four years.   Most players aren’t wired like that.   Those that do more often than not move on no matter what they were guaranteed.  

Some of the over-recruiting at the D1 level has to do with coaches being on the hot seat.  The more stable the program, the more entrenched the HC is, the less need (and less likelihood) for over-recruiting.  Not to pick on Wichita State but they are a good case in point. Todd Butler's chair is warm and not coincidentally they have already signed 17 recruits for 2018.  Simple math will tell you that half of those wont be around for long. I have said this before but I will say it again - evaluating baseball talent is not easy.  Once you get past the very best players (that everyone agrees are great) it is a crapshoot.  That's why so much emphasis is put on measurables - because they are tangible. That way if a kid doesn't pan out the RC can fall back on "well he threw 90, so it made sense to give him a chance." But good measurables don't mean that a player is good in game situations.  It just increases the probability. I have seen plenty of OF's that run a 6.5 sixty and throw to the wrong base - or run the bases like a 7.0 guy.  So when in doubt (or just because they can) many schools will bring in 20 guys in the fall, look at all of them for 3 months and then keep the 10 they want.  I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

adbono posted:

Some of the over-recruiting at the D1 level has to do with coaches being on the hot seat.  The more stable the program, the more entrenched the HC is, the less need (and less likelihood) for over-recruiting.  Not to pick on Wichita State but they are a good case in point. Todd Butler's chair is warm and not coincidentally they have already signed 17 recruits for 2018.  Simple math will tell you that half of those wont be around for long. I have said this before but I will say it again - evaluating baseball talent is not easy.  Once you get past the very best players (that everyone agrees are great) it is a crapshoot.  That's why so much emphasis is put on measurables - because they are tangible. That way if a kid doesn't pan out the RC can fall back on "well he threw 90, so it made sense to give him a chance." But good measurables don't mean that a player is good in game situations.  It just increases the probability. I have seen plenty of OF's that run a 6.5 sixty and throw to the wrong base - or run the bases like a 7.0 guy.  So when in doubt (or just because they can) many schools will bring in 20 guys in the fall, look at all of them for 3 months and then keep the 10 they want.  I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

well said...

not just D1, my sons D3 had 10 in freshman class last September, they have 7 now. One couldn't play, 2 couldn't study. IMO next September of 7 left now there will 4 maybe 5, the good news I think 2 of them will be freshman starters, one of the others is going to be a very good player but he is behind a 3 year starter, next season a sophomore I expect he will be very good.

the failure rate is huge but you can see pretty quickly who is overmatched.  

SSBuckeye posted:

My 2017 was recruited by two D1 schools who guaranteed him a spot on the roster for 4 years.  Knowing those programs, I believed both.  They didn't have a lot of baseball money, so this was their pitch to him.  So to make statements like there are zero guarantees does not ring true for me.  There's close to 300 D1 schools, so there's going to be more than one recruiting philosopy out there.  That said, it's certainly wise to fact check those types of offers.  And the guarantee in that case 100% relies on the integrity of the coaches in question.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 4 year guarantee. I've been a college coach for a number of years and I can guarantee any PSA 4 years on my roster if he guarantees he will not drop below a 2.5 and will be an asset to the team even if he never plays in a game. Even that is a stretch since taking up a bench spot is valuable property. There would have to be many guarantees from the player.  Unfortunately the reality is that every coaches job is to find someone who is a better fit for the program than the player he just recruited. Not many coaches are guaranteed a contract or may be around for the PSA's 4 years. 

Check the archives of the teams rosters the past five years and you may not see the same bench players for for 4 years running. 

 SS,

 "So to make statements like there are zero guarantees does not ring true for me".

I think I'm one of the posters on here that stated "Zero" guarantees. Maybe I should have said 1 in a 100 zero guarantees. DI coaches have roster limits of 35, some don't even carry that many. I would be cautious when a coach says you have a roster spot for four years guaranteed. Especially before stepping on the field. Coaches will say a lot to get a kid committed, money or no money. But once on campus, all bets are off. They are recruiting his replacement before he steps on the field. 

If in fact that is the case for your son, consider him very fortunate, because that is very rare!

 

Good luck to your player!  

 

adbono posted:

Some of the over-recruiting at the D1 level has to do with coaches being on the hot seat.  The more stable the program, the more entrenched the HC is, the less need (and less likelihood) for over-recruiting.  Not to pick on Wichita State but they are a good case in point. Todd Butler's chair is warm and not coincidentally they have already signed 17 recruits for 2018.  Simple math will tell you that half of those wont be around for long. I have said this before but I will say it again - evaluating baseball talent is not easy.  Once you get past the very best players (that everyone agrees are great) it is a crapshoot.  That's why so much emphasis is put on measurables - because they are tangible. That way if a kid doesn't pan out the RC can fall back on "well he threw 90, so it made sense to give him a chance." But good measurables don't mean that a player is good in game situations.  It just increases the probability. I have seen plenty of OF's that run a 6.5 sixty and throw to the wrong base - or run the bases like a 7.0 guy.  So when in doubt (or just because they can) many schools will bring in 20 guys in the fall, look at all of them for 3 months and then keep the 10 they want.  I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

100%

SSBuckeye posted:

My 2017 was recruited by two D1 schools who guaranteed him a spot on the roster for 4 years.  Knowing those programs, I believed both.  They didn't have a lot of baseball money, so this was their pitch to him.  So to make statements like there are zero guarantees does not ring true for me.  There's close to 300 D1 schools, so there's going to be more than one recruiting philosopy out there.  That said, it's certainly wise to fact check those types of offers.  And the guarantee in that case 100% relies on the integrity of the coaches in question.

The money may be guaranteed for four years. It’s unlikely the roster spot is guaranteed. What happens if the coach wants the money back he will tell the player it’s Unlikely he will get on the field or make the roster. Most kids wanting to play will transfer. This is how coaches get out of guarantees.

roothog66 posted:

So, if you're on scholarship, but get "cut," you have to be on the roster if you're in school. If you're at a P5 with a 4-year scholly, I assume a coach that wants a player gone wouldn't cut them but rather make them attend every practice, give them no playing time and not put them on the travel roster.

Actually playing out at my son's school now.  P5, scholarship freshman cut after fall.  Was pitcher, but injury has basically ended his playing career.  Kid has chosen to remain at the school as a student.

He'll continue to get his athletic scholarship AND take one of the 35 roster spots, so coach cannot carry full roster as long as he remains in good standing as required of any other student athlete.

Nuke83 posted:
roothog66 posted:

So, if you're on scholarship, but get "cut," you have to be on the roster if you're in school. If you're at a P5 with a 4-year scholly, I assume a coach that wants a player gone wouldn't cut them but rather make them attend every practice, give them no playing time and not put them on the travel roster.

Actually playing out at my son's school now.  P5, scholarship freshman cut after fall.  Was pitcher, but injury has basically ended his playing career.  Kid has chosen to remain at the school as a student.

He'll continue to get his athletic scholarship AND take one of the 35 roster spots, so coach cannot carry full roster as long as he remains in good standing as required of any other student athlete.

Lite bulb thought here:  Might this scenario be one of the reasons many D1 programs carry only 32, 33, or 34 guys on their roster?  Could be a variety of other reasons too, but this could be one of them.  Yes?

Nuke83 posted:
roothog66 posted:

So, if you're on scholarship, but get "cut," you have to be on the roster if you're in school. If you're at a P5 with a 4-year scholly, I assume a coach that wants a player gone wouldn't cut them but rather make them attend every practice, give them no playing time and not put them on the travel roster.

Actually playing out at my son's school now.  P5, scholarship freshman cut after fall.  Was pitcher, but injury has basically ended his playing career.  Kid has chosen to remain at the school as a student.

He'll continue to get his athletic scholarship AND take one of the 35 roster spots, so coach cannot carry full roster as long as he remains in good standing as required of any other student athlete.

I thought once they are not on the team, they count towards the scholarship allotment but not the roster?

Shoveit4Ks posted:
Nuke83 posted:
roothog66 posted:

So, if you're on scholarship, but get "cut," you have to be on the roster if you're in school. If you're at a P5 with a 4-year scholly, I assume a coach that wants a player gone wouldn't cut them but rather make them attend every practice, give them no playing time and not put them on the travel roster.

Actually playing out at my son's school now.  P5, scholarship freshman cut after fall.  Was pitcher, but injury has basically ended his playing career.  Kid has chosen to remain at the school as a student.

He'll continue to get his athletic scholarship AND take one of the 35 roster spots, so coach cannot carry full roster as long as he remains in good standing as required of any other student athlete.

I thought once they are not on the team, they count towards the scholarship allotment but not the roster?

It'd be cool to get clarification, because I thought if it was career ending, than they wouldn't count for either one.  This comes from reading about SEC Football, and I think this happens quite a bit.  A player gets a career injury, and that gives the scholarship back to the team. They may have to apply to the NCAA for it?

Last edited by rynoattack

Here is another article that states,

"A medical exemption can be given to an athlete who suffers an injury or illness that ends their career. It ensures that, for their remaining eligibility, they receive all the financial aid they would have received before the medical problem. A medical exemption does not count against the program's scholarship limit (for football, it is 85), but is still paid for from the program's budget. If the injury occurs during a season, that player still does count against the scholarship limit. Once the season ends, they can be moved to medical exemption and another scholarship is freed up.

http://newsok.com/article/3697118

Most D-1 Scholarships are renewable annually . They are only guaranteed for 1 year. Did the NCAA modify the rules recently ? YES . But that only applies to very small number of schools . There are 300 D1 programs . Most aren't even fully funded ( 11.5 ) .... Put another way only about 35-45 schools were fully funded last year.

As far as guarantees and cuts. As was already mentioned NLI money is guaranteed for 1 year. They can't take that away from you. As far as baseball goes , The only guarantee is that NCAA coaches are going to roster spot guys that they believe can help them win . Period.

Look at it this way, NCAA D1 ball couldn't survive without non-baseball money academic money guys . Coastal won it all 2 years ago with 5 starters that didn't have any baseball money.

The point is there are no guarantees . A baseball scholarship gets you a ticket to the dance. Nothing more . And when you get there the dance floor is FULL . Guys have to perform immediately when they get on campus for fall ball. And generally , that only buys you a playing option. Meaning , you're an option at your position because freshman don't start at quality D1 programs . Or let me rephrase that , 1 or maybe 2 freshman might start out of the 9-10 that are coming in to the program. Freshman learn how to sit their first year. And if you see maybe 20-30 AB's your first year consider yourself lucky.

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