An often overlooked aspect of recruiting

We have a similar problem in Iowa with only having one D1 school, although we have more schools that extend in-state tuition to us. We have talked to son about looking at that, and explained that a school that charges out of state tuition is going to have to give him more money than a school that charges in state just to be competitive. And in their minds, he might not be worth it.

My father worked at a private college for 40 years. Very often, their financial aid can mean a student pays the same as a public, and in some cases, less. Don't write them off before you see what they can do just because of a high sticker price.

The issue becomes even more complicated if you fall in the "middle" where your income suggests you do not deserve "need based" aid so you are left to rely entirely on scholarships and merit aid.  With few in-state options to play baseball, you are then left to find a way to pay out of state tuition at a public school or consider JUCO.

Never has it been clearer to me just how critical it is for your son to have a really strong academic record if they want to play baseball and are not a D1 level player.  While I wish my 2017 had a better GPA, his test scores are really high and that has opened up the discussion with coaches from some of the really high academic D3 programs.  He has even received some interest from Ivy schools because of his academics, but he is not quite good enough in baseball to wind up at one of those even if we could somehow find a way to afford it.  But when you start adding up the merit award and scholarships at the D3 schools, they are now real options for him.  Absent the test scores, they would not even be an option because their cost is too high without financial assistance.

While everyone would love to have a son with the talent level to not worry about the issues brought up in the article, the rest of us are left to navigate the maze of trying to find the right school, academic fit, and a chance to play college baseball.

Root, & others...just an fyi...it's also a VERY GOOD idea to check with NCAA to see which schools have academic violations/probation, either pending or recent (within the last 5 yrs, say...

U of A has a history of academic violations & probation abt 8-10 yrs ago...

just saying...they do a great "sales job"...so, do your homework!

Just to echo the others it became apparent to me that with an above average student (not spectacular) and a solid ACT score  even as just a regular student (qualifying for no need based aide) we would have been better off financially dealing with the private schools vs. almost any state school's out of state tuition.

He chose to stay in state but even with no baseball money in the mix I am paying less for him to attend the private than I would any of the state schools here.  Solid academic money and generous institutional money goes along way vs. a state school where he would have received nothing.

For everyone but the absolute baseball stud a solid academic record can be more beneficial to where you play vs. your ability.  Lots of kids have the ability.

We live in a state that has a single D1 baseball school, and it's an Ivy.  Both my sons play in college right now, one at a D1 and the other D3, both private schools out of state.  Everyone's family financials are different, so giving blanket advice relative to financials is hard.  The only thing I would say is when searching, keep an open mind.  Just because you think your family can't afford it doesn't necessarily make it so.  Some private schools have incredible financial aid opportunities, even for families that would not qualify for any aid at other schools.  Keep your options open - you may be pleasantly surprised. 

9and7Dad,

First post on this forum and I hope to continue to learn as much from reading current and past posts as I do in corresponding with members of the forum.

I look at college a little differently than some, I guess, as I paid my own way through college and took the 15-year route to finishing a bachelors degree while working (no college debt). I don't look at financial aid that you have to pay back as any kind of assistance to a student, it's just debt that you have to pay back with interest - yuck! Like you said, every family is different based on a number of factors. I have a daughter in a Pac-12 school currently (out-of-state) and we are only paying about $1,800 per term, including housing and meal plan, based on academic merit-based scholarship and other school scholarships she earned (none sports related - she is not an athlete). This is a $38K a year bill normally, and according to FAFSA I would be responsible for the entire bill based on family income. If she were to be relying on loans or financial aid that needed to be repaid, she would not be attending there, she would be attending college at a school where she can get the education she desires with the least out-of-pocket expense to her (and our family).

I agree that you should not restrict where your student-athlete is trying to attend school and play ball based on your perception of how much it is going to cost you to attend, because scholarships are abundant and funny things. First thing that you need to consider though, especially as an athlete's parent, is can you afford to attend the college without athletic program aid? If the answer is no, then you need to ask yourself if the school is where your student wants to get a degree from in the event they get cut, lose scholarship money, or otherwise have to fund their education themselves. Transferring schools almost always slows down the time to graduation, and as we all know - TIME IS MONEY!

Roothog, I have seen that you are a frequent poster and have a lot to add to this board, learning a great deal from your posts. I was under the impression D1 offers are based on the amount of a "full ride," therefore a 50% scholarship to Arkansas with a $23K out-of-state tuition is going to cost the program more than your projected $12K, because you have to include the value of room and board in that as well. Am I right here?

Yes, SDrealist, that would be correct. I was using tuition alone just to keep it simple and to emphasize the difference in $$ at risk. The other costs would be the same for both in-state and out-of-state.

I'm also not sure how that works. Some schools will offer something like "50% of tuition." Others a simple $ amount (though I've found this to be more rare). I'm not sure how the calculation against 11.7 works. I know it used to not include COA at all, but did cover other fees, books, R&B. So, if anyone knows; if a school offers, say 50% of tuition, but this only represents 25% of tuition, fees, food, and R&B, is this, indeed counted as .5 or ,25 against the 11.7 limit?

SanDiegoRealist posted:

9and7Dad,

 I don't look at financial aid that you have to pay back as any kind of assistance to a student, it's just debt that you have to pay back with interest - yuck!

I agree with you.  In my view, financial aid (whether grants or merit based aid) is a reduction in cost to the student.  I view loans and potential work study allowance as different.  Still important in the overall financial picture to many families, but fall in a different category.  It's an important distinction to point out, thanks for doing that.

What is the "obvious" reason for discounting Air Force?  Just curious

Being a military school, the recruiting aspect isn't the same. 

roothog66 posted:

Yes, SDrealist, that would be correct. I was using tuition alone just to keep it simple and to emphasize the difference in $$ at risk. The other costs would be the same for both in-state and out-of-state.

I'm also not sure how that works. Some schools will offer something like "50% of tuition." Others a simple $ amount (though I've found this to be more rare). I'm not sure how the calculation against 11.7 works. I know it used to not include COA at all, but did cover other fees, books, R&B. So, if anyone knows; if a school offers, say 50% of tuition, but this only represents 25% of tuition, fees, food, and R&B, is this, indeed counted as .5 or ,25 against the 11.7 limit?

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that scholarships are based on tuition, fees, books, room and board.  For a D1 football player, a scholarship covers 100% of those costs (or pays out money to player directly if their room and board is not school related i.e. off campus).  A 50% tuition offer probably translates to around a 25% scholarship and could be less if room and board at that school represents over 50% of total costs.

As for COA, that term is used in the context of stipends.  That added "cost" represents an estimate of incidentals (much of the cost related to travel) and represents an amount schools can now provide over and above the "full ride".  Have heard about lots of ways stipends are being distributed, if the school decides in fact to fund these dollars.  Full ride athletes are getting 100% of this amount.  Partial scholarship athletes sometimes are getting the full amount also, but sometimes are getting a pro-rata share based on their scholarship percentage.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

9and7Dad,

First post on this forum and I hope to continue to learn as much from reading current and past posts as I do in corresponding with members of the forum.

I look at college a little differently than some, I guess, as I paid my own way through college and took the 15-year route to finishing a bachelors degree while working (no college debt). I don't look at financial aid that you have to pay back as any kind of assistance to a student, it's just debt that you have to pay back with interest - yuck! ....

Transferring schools almost always slows down the time to graduation, and as we all know - TIME IS MONEY!

...

SDRealist, great first post and insight.  

A question for you, though... early in your post, you say you took the 15 yr route to finishing your degree while working and didn't take on college debt.  Later, you make the point about transferring and how it slows down time to graduate and TIME IS MONEY.  Have you done the math for your own situation?  If you had taken out some loans and only worked part time so that you could graduate in 4-5 years instead of 15, would the added income over ten years from a better paying job based on your degree have offset partial loans?

roothog66 posted:

Being a military school, the recruiting aspect isn't the same. 

Come on Root, I see your profile says you're an attorney and I am Federal Law Enforcement/retired military.  You gave me the vague lawyer answer 

Air Force/Navy/Army etc. all aggressively recruit their players, the process is a bit different due to entry requirements and obviously the commitment that comes along with a tax payer provided world class education.  It does take a certain type of person to thrive in those environments but after the first year it isn't much different than any other college campus.  if the obvious reason is, the culture/atmosphere isn't desirable that is completely understandable. 

Since you are an "elder" on the sight I'd hate for someone to read your post and not understand the bigger picture.

As a side note, I lived in Colorado Springs for nine years, miss the heck out of Colorado.  Hope things are good out there on the front range.

cabbagedad posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

9and7Dad,

First post on this forum and I hope to continue to learn as much from reading current and past posts as I do in corresponding with members of the forum.

I look at college a little differently than some, I guess, as I paid my own way through college and took the 15-year route to finishing a bachelors degree while working (no college debt). I don't look at financial aid that you have to pay back as any kind of assistance to a student, it's just debt that you have to pay back with interest - yuck! ....

Transferring schools almost always slows down the time to graduation, and as we all know - TIME IS MONEY!

...

SDRealist, great first post and insight.  

A question for you, though... early in your post, you say you took the 15 yr route while working and didn't take on college debt.  Later, you make the point about transferring and how it slows down time to graduate and TIME IS MONEY.  Have you done the math for your own situation?  If you had taken out some loans and only worked part time so that you could graduate in 4-5 years instead of 15, would the added income over ten years from a better paying job based on your degree have offset partial loans?

I love these math problems.  Kind of reminds me of the discussions about whether to go pro out of high school.  Maybe the guy started out as an philosophy major and transitioned into compute sciences in year 12.  In that case, the answer would be "NO".  That is just an example of how sometimes their really is no simple answer.  I'm still trying to figure out how foregoing a $500k signing bonus (or thereabouts) is generally a no brainer - when you get to construct the "rules" then you get to influence the answer (things like "assume the MLB scholarship is worthless").

That said, college debt is sometimes a very necessary option with which to fund one's education and makes perfect sense, especially when the kid in question has some motivation and drive.  Absent motivation and drive, working (instead of partying) oftentimes helps develop one's motivation and drive.

Redsdad posted:

roothog66 posted:

Being a military school, the recruiting aspect isn't the same. 

Come on Root, I see your profile says you're an attorney and I am Federal Law Enforcement/retired military.  You gave me the vague lawyer answer 

Air Force/Navy/Army etc. all aggressively recruit their players, the process is a bit different due to entry requirements and obviously the commitment that comes along with a tax payer provided world class education.  It does take a certain type of person to thrive in those environments but after the first year it isn't much different than any other college campus.  if the obvious reason is, the culture/atmosphere isn't desirable that is completely understandable. 

Since you are an "elder" on the sight I'd hate for someone to read your post and not understand the bigger picture.

As a side note, I lived in Colorado Springs for nine years, miss the heck out of Colorado.  Hope things are good out there on the front range.

 

Fair enough. I guess what I am trying to get at is that Air Force recruits from a truly national pool. It is no advantage to Colorado high school players that it's in state. There aren't cost issues to consider. Further, the military service commitment and physical and academic requirements make it unique and narrows the pool. 

A question for you, though... early in your post, you say you took the 15 yr route to finishing your degree while working and didn't take on college debt.  Later, you make the point about transferring and how it slows down time to graduate and TIME IS MONEY.  Have you done the math for your own situation?  If you had taken out some loans and only worked part time so that you could graduate in 4-5 years instead of 15, would the added income over ten years from a better paying job based on your degree have offset partial loans?

--------------------------

Cabbagedad, my situation was a little different than most in that I was concurrently securing my family's future while plucking away at that undergrad degree. So, if you are talking about what the opportunity cost was for me personally taking the slow road to China for my undergrad, the answer is zero because I secured my financial future along the way, increased by earnings along the way, and can quit working today if I chose to do so at age 50. So, my situation was different (key theme in this thread), but I certainly don't condemn anyone who uses financing options for college, because the most important thing is to go to college (IMO). Just make sure that you choose the most direct path, the path with the least twist and turns (because we all have crystal balls, right?). No telling what would have happened had I taken college loans out instead of going the route I did, I guess I will have to ponder that one a bit.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

SDRealist, great first post and insight.  

 

...

Cabbagedad, my situation was a little different than most in that I was concurrently securing my family's future while plucking away at that undergrad degree. S....

got it, thanks

Private vs Public college just got a little more interesting.....

SanDiegoRealist posted:

9and7Dad,

First post on this forum and I hope to continue to learn as much from reading current and past posts as I do in corresponding with members of the forum.

I look at college a little differently than some, I guess, as I paid my own way through college and took the 15-year route to finishing a bachelors degree while working (no college debt). I don't look at financial aid that you have to pay back as any kind of assistance to a student, it's just debt that you have to pay back with interest - yuck! Like you said, every family is different based on a number of factors. I have a daughter in a Pac-12 school currently (out-of-state) and we are only paying about $1,800 per term, including housing and meal plan, based on academic merit-based scholarship and other school scholarships she earned (none sports related - she is not an athlete). This is a $38K a year bill normally, and according to FAFSA I would be responsible for the entire bill based on family income. If she were to be relying on loans or financial aid that needed to be repaid, she would not be attending there, she would be attending college at a school where she can get the education she desires with the least out-of-pocket expense to her (and our family).

I agree that you should not restrict where your student-athlete is trying to attend school and play ball based on your perception of how much it is going to cost you to attend, because scholarships are abundant and funny things. First thing that you need to consider though, especially as an athlete's parent, is can you afford to attend the college without athletic program aid? If the answer is no, then you need to ask yourself if the school is where your student wants to get a degree from in the event they get cut, lose scholarship money, or otherwise have to fund their education themselves. Transferring schools almost always slows down the time to graduation, and as we all know - TIME IS MONEY!

Roothog, I have seen that you are a frequent poster and have a lot to add to this board, learning a great deal from your posts. I was under the impression D1 offers are based on the amount of a "full ride," therefore a 50% scholarship to Arkansas with a $23K out-of-state tuition is going to cost the program more than your projected $12K, because you have to include the value of room and board in that as well. Am I right here?

Can you share the secret of only paying $1800 per semester for college? She must have had stellar SAT or ACT scores and a 4.0 GPA or close to it...   Congrats to your daughter - that is wonderful. 

RKBH, I PM'd you.

Does it help that you are an athlete to get an academic merit-based scholarship?   Will the college coach help you get it?

Nonomimi5,

it absolutely helps for your student athlete to be a great student and to earn merit-based aid because it reduces the amount of athletic aid a coach will have to use/offer to entice you to play at their school. It also tells the coach that you will be academically eligible to play immediately. Take a look at the NCAA requirements for eligiblity as well here http://www.ncaa.org/student-at...ay-division-i-sports. Merit based aid is going to be determined by the school based on your athlete's academic record and test scores in most cases, not influenced by a coach.

Athletes get no special consideration in determining academic scholarships. All students - athletes and non-athletes - compete on equal terms for these awards.

Goosegg posted:

Athletes get no special consideration in determining academic scholarships. All students - athletes and non-athletes - compete on equal terms for these awards.

 

 In addition at some privates institutional aid cannot be used with athletic aid.  Depending on the criteria It is either/or and not together. 

As to academics, keep in mind also that under current NCAA rules, if a player receives merit aid it will count against the program's 11.7 scholarship limit unless the student meets one of three criteria:

1) 3.5 gpa; or

2) top 10% of his graduating class; or

3) 105 sum ACT score.

Which means, for example, if a coach offers you a 50% scholarship and then you receive a 25% scholarship for merit aid, but don't meet the above, he will either have to decrease your athletic aid to 25% or take a .75 scholarship hit against the limit rather than the .5 he had planned on.

Good point, Roothog. We have a 2017 kid at my son's school who is committed to a PAC-12 with a 3.8 GPA and I know this boy's merit aid was a factor in his recruiting.

BackstopDad32 posted:

Goosegg posted:

Athletes get no special consideration in determining academic scholarships. All students - athletes and non-athletes - compete on equal terms for these awards.

 

 In addition at some privates institutional aid cannot be used with athletic aid.  Depending on the criteria It is either/or and not together. 

Backstop - we experienced the same thing at one school in particular.  Son met the requirement as Root outlined, but they still didn't allow combining.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RKBH, I PM'd you.

SDRealist, could you please PM me as well? I'd like to know how high academics have to be to get merit aid in PAC12.

Bogeyorpar posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

RKBH, I PM'd you.

SDRealist, could you please PM me as well? I'd like to know how high academics have to be to get merit aid in PAC12.

I PM'd you, but the quick answer is each school is different as far as how they give out merit aid. ASU is generous to a fault.

roothog66 posted:

https://www.sportsforceonline....08b24287a275cf6b0819

This article brings up a subject that I've had to deal with during my son's recruitment. We live in Colorado who has very limited D1 baseball opportunities and very limited reciprocal financial agreements with other states. Setting aside Air Force for obvious reasons, Colorado has ONE D1 baseball program - Northern Colorado. Neither the U of Colorado or Colorado State have baseball programs. What does this mean for us? It means that school budgets come into play. I'll give you the best example.

My so is quite interested in the University of Arkansas for a number of personal reasons. Resident tuition for the school is just over $8k / yr. Non-resident tuition is just over $23k / yr. Arkansas has reciprocal tuition deals with every boarder state as well as Kansas and Illinois. Kids from those states can enter Arkansas and pay basically 110% of in-state tuition. The program has, of course, 11,7 scholarships available, but they also have a recruiting budget. So, if they are looking at filling a spot and are looking at my son and a kid from Missouri, they have to take into account that a, say 50% offer, will cost them almost $12k from their operating budget per year for my kid, but only just over $4.5k/yr to get the Missouri kid.  So, if there is enough talent in that region, my son would need to be significantly better than other options for offering him to make sense. It would also make sense that they would wait longer to make that decision.

For us, I'm starting to see, then, just how important it is to target schools that have significantly better opportunities for fee waivers or non-resident scholarships. For Colorado, there is a program that includes several Western Schools that allow a student to attend from out-of-state for 150% of in-state tuition. That makes him more attractive to a coach. Other schools have great fee waivers for out-of-state students who meet certain benchmarks. Some Texas schools, for example, waive the difference between in-state and non-resident tuition for any student who receives at least $1k in scholarship money from a source that any Texas student could have competed for.

Another factor is private schools. While at first glance, the high cost looks like a negative factor, the actuality can be quite different. Many of the private schools have large grants that allow them to give financial aid to a large number of students - often students from families that you would not think of as financial need types. I believe Stanford, for example, gives the full amount of tuition to any student from a family that has a household income below $125K.

It's certainly a bigger factor in targeting your recruiting efforts than most people recognize.

Great post/topic root.  So so true. Been trying to explain to my son til blue in the face he needs minimum 3.5fpa and academic money if he wants to have choices about baseball.  Otherwise it's time to fatten up for football!