Are keyboards creating high-school coach killers?

I don’t know anything about these coaches nor the coach on the previous thread. 

IMHO and based on experience with two college players...there’s multiple sides to many of these stories.

1) Parents are way too involved and wear their children like medallions. My Dad and Mom were too busy working at the Ford plant and trying to put food on the table but that was 35 years ago.  We like to post “our” accomplishments on this site and Facebook and Instagram...I think my guys would be mortified but that hasn’t stopped me.

2) We look at the winning coaches getting fired (as in these two recent threads) and we question the parents. I always question the parents, myself included, winning or losing.  We (me) are too invested in our kids’ lives.

3) And I see winning coaches and losing coaches that can be good or bad or sometimes both...they’re human. As RJM stated on a previous thread, some are screamers. My youngest college guy has one now. That isn’t coaching whether he wins or loses. That’s just screaming.  And he’s losing but that’s for the AD to noodle.

4) It was noted on the other thread that starters parents don’t complain. No kidding. They don’t want junior to lose his spot.  They (we) aren’t more virtuous or truly supporting the coach.  We don’t want our boat rocked.  

5) Really good coaches understand the enormous impact that they can have on a young person’s life and they treat that with incredible respect.  It isn’t about winning in this context IMO.  It’s about positively impacting someone’s life.  I want to (and I hope I have the clarity to) always support this type of coach.

Times are changing.  There are a lot of really mediocre high school coaches & programs out there, and kids nowadays have options that they didn't have even 10-15 years ago in most parts of the country.

Some of the coaches are unfairly fired, yes, but sometimes change is for the best.  And yes, parents can get way too involved.

Increasingly, players in some parts of the country (especially in the frozen tundra of Wisconsin, Minnesota, & Illinois) are choosing to not play for their high schools and instead only doing training & travel ball & playing in indoor spring leagues.  This is forcing high school coaches to put together a higher quality program or step aside.

I understand traditionalists will go on and on waxing nostalgic about the wonderful merits of high school Baseball.  But not all high school programs are a quality experience.  And as I said, times are changing.  When you look at a "season" here in the north being about 4 weeks due to weather related issues anyways, I can certainly understand the temptation to skip high school ball, especially if the program is mediocre.

Interesting topic.  Yes, parents are a problem.  Yes, some coaches are terrible.  Yes, some good coaches get fired due to parents overstepping.  That sucks! 

But, in general scrutiny is good.  In business and in coaching.  We have a high school varsity coach who is not good.  He runs a poor program.  Very old school guy who does not really know anything about modern baseball.  Two years ago he seriously hurt a pitchers arm having him throw 250 pitches in 4 days before the pitch count rules came in. 

Other coaches in the program complain about him regularly.  But he is a teacher at the school and has been the coach for 25+ years.  He could use some scrutiny, but my kid is in the program so I would never get involved, but I hope others will.  

Branson Baseball posted:

 

4) It was noted on the other thread that starters parents don’t complain. No kidding. They don’t want junior to lose his spot.  They (we) aren’t more virtuous or truly supporting the coach.  We don’t want our boat rocked.   

Of course starters parents complain — often about the parents of the second team or JV team players and how resentful they are of your kids success, the comments they make during games, etc.

As much as we all talk about team first, it's a very hard philosophy to actually act on and most of us don't do it very well, no matter where our kid falls in the team.

RJM posted:

“Would people say the things that people say to their face versus a keyboard? I don’t think the outcome would be the same,”

This is spot on. Although there are outliers who would speak in the same manner to someone's face, by and large this applies not only to this situation but across the board these days. I work in technology myself and am not really a "get off my lawn!" guy when it comes to that, but the anonymity and remoteness of the Internet and social media, in a lot of ways, has enabled abusive behavior of folks people barely–or don't at all–know that would likely otherwise not happen. This forum is really good about this but I daresay I see things even here that would fall into this category from time to time.

Branson Baseball posted:

 

4) It was noted on the other thread that starters parents don’t complain. No kidding. They don’t want junior to lose his spot.  They (we) aren’t more virtuous or truly supporting the coach.  We don’t want our boat rocked.   

On this comment, I would say that I agree more with Iowamom. My kid is a starter and he works very hard to stay that way. In our situation, the parents of starters are typically the ones who also do all the work. Maybe that's out of obligation or enthusiasm but mostly I think not. There are just some people who help more in general than others. Our program gets $1500/yr from the school district, which probably doesn't even cover baseballs, so we (the booster club & coaches) are left to raise all the funds and do all the maintenance for our facilities and program. It ends up being the old 80/20 rule where 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people. I'd like to think that the folks with kids who do not have regular starters would step up if that changed but I know that's not how it would be after watching this for the last three years. There are exceptions on both sides of course but this is our particular situation and I would venture to guess that it is not too uncommon. Bottom line is that I have no fear at all about complaining with my son being a starter but I don't typically feel the need because I see the work that goes into our program and it doesn't involve just showing up to practice and play baseball (or find a spot in the stands to sit and watch your kid play–or not).

A few years ago, we had an email circulate about our then Head coach.  I can say reading the complaint, everyone was right and everyone was wrong.  Meaning, did the coach do some questionable things?  Yep.  Should their kid have played more?  Probably.  Did their kid play? Yep.  Was it just about the right amount?  Probably.  These situations are rarely "black and white."  There is usually a lot of grey area.  

Coaches are not above criticism, but playing time would not be my main focus as a parent. I am hyper aware, as a coach(and Dad) myself, how impossible it is for a parent to accurately judge their own child's talent.

As one VERY experienced coach in my district tells his parents at the start of every year, " My door is always open if you want to talk about your son's schooling, or other problems he is having. Just don't talk to me about hockey." 

He is a great guy, and most players and parents respect him, but  there are occasional malcontents. They usually end up gone, one way or another, no matter how talented they are.

A fairly well-known coach told me (actually spoke to an audience of parents of younger - not high school- kids). He said something along these lines: "Moms, you know I love you, love your passion and I know how well you have raised your boys, but please do not talk to me about baseball and your son's abilities. Do not take this the wrong way, but in my experience there is a large discrepancy in the way moms are able to assess their boy's talents and the way the father's do. The dads are much more realistic about their son's abilities. I can talk to the dads and they mostly get it (though don't always like to hear it), but the moms not so much. They take it very personal as the boy is their little baby and their pride and joy...."

I've actually found the Dad's to be just as delusional, myself. And they are usually the ones who have never played. My wife is funny. Shows up about twice a year, cheers in the wrong places, then goes home. Not a lot of angst, there.

They are called Internet muscles.  People can hide behind a screen name and say things they would not say to someone's face.  We see it here on these forums.  Please don't say things electronically you would not have the courage (or decency) to say to someone's face.  The Golden Rule is a good one to live by. 

57Special, that's typically been my experience as well (moms having a supportive role), but then the coach speaking had a far different perspective than most of us. He ran a nationally known baseball organization that put hundreds, maybe thousands of kids into colleges and pro ranks. Year in and year out, many parents (moms and dads) had to be told that their son was not good enough to be on the elite travel team, was not good enough to start, did not have the hitting skills to be a 3-hole hitter... etc.  Just thought his remark was interesting. Certainly does not speak to all baseball moms at all.

I'm quite shocked at how parents have handled some of my decisions that we're based on the health and safety of my players, and academic importance.  One player complained of having the flu while we were on the bus. I told him I will not put him on the lineup sheet for his own health.  I ran into his mom and we talked about that.  He had told her he played 2 innings but I told her the truth.  She went quiet, exited the conversation and ended up making an excuse to sit on the other side of the hall.  

Last week 2 players missed a game due to having to take the SATs.  Our bus was scheduled to leave in the middle of it.  One of them, his mom was furious because we didn't wait for her son.  I called her to apologize and in the middle of explaining that I felt the SATs were more important than baseball, she snapped and hung up on me.  

Now I have more appreciation for two fathers who have kept their sons out of baseball this year due to academic and behavioral reasons.  They will be welcomed back whenever they get clearance from their parents.  

57special posted:

Coaches are not above criticism, but playing time would not be my main focus as a parent. I am hyper aware, as a coach(and Dad) myself, how impossible it is for a parent to accurately judge their own child's talent.

As one VERY experienced coach in my district tells his parents at the start of every year, " My door is always open if you want to talk about your son's schooling, or other problems he is having. Just don't talk to me about hockey." 

He is a great guy, and most players and parents respect him, but  there are occasional malcontents. They usually end up gone, one way or another, no matter how talented they are.

The use of the internet has had many negative effects as is pointed out here, but positive as well.  When used by a parent to push a personal agenda (e.g. this coach is screwing my kid) that is bad, but the use of social media and town message boards can be a driver to address actual coaching issues.  Issues that were / are harder to deal with unless you have a easy access to reach many people.  Prior to tools like these a parent or group of parents could maybe speak to an athletic director about a problem coach but it was quite difficult to illustrate the issue is felt by many or widespread. Or can be more easily dismissed.  

With town Facebook pages and message boards school management can see first hand many people discussing in a free dialog and gain a broader understanding.  Easy to get information communicated and it is up to athletic directors and schools to weed out the disgruntled parents with personal agendas from actual constructive criticism.  

Many coaches are great, many coaches are fine, some are bad.  If these tools help weed those out...all the better.  

Yes coaches should be scrutinized but that's not a parents job and never will be.  Yes you have your opinion and you have your background in baseball.  Could be you are very knowledgeable or could be you're clueless - doesn't matter because it's very difficult to be objective when you have a kid on the team.  For every objective parent out there who can correctly assess how a coach is doing there's MANY who cannot.  Plus, I don't work for you - you don't hire me or fire me (well you shouldn't). I work for the principal and the school system and as long as they are happy then the coach should stay.  If they are weak and give in to parents then you are actually doing the coach a favor because who wants to stay in that situation?

Don't get me wrong - parents are vital to a successful program but they have their role.  That role just doesn't happen to involve evaluating coaches to retain or remove from a job. 

I am not sure I could disagree with you more.  The parents are really the only ones who care enough to provide feedback and have a voice that can be heard.  Sure the students can have a voice, but the school has the right to discipline and ignore them.

Parents are the only ones who are actually watching the games. They care the most.  Who would provide constructive feedback other than parents?   The principal has all of the education and all sports programs to manage, too much to be actively involved.  Parents are the ones who are there. The only people actually available to view the product and provide informed opinion (and many parents uninformed opinions).  It is the job of the school and principal to weed out the uniformed opinion, take in all information and make decisions.  

Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  Literally everything a school needs to actually be a school.  Students and money.

When my kids were playing sports I focused on them working very hard to become as good as they could be. I wanted them to put all their efforts into learning how to be as good as they could be. I wanted them to learn team work, a great work ethic, the value of playing sports, etc. I understood there were things that would be outside of their control. I never wasted any time on those things. I understood there would be times that they might have coaches who were not the best. No big deal that was outside of our control. I figured if they were good enough it wouldn't matter anyway. I figured if I assisted them and supported them and held them accountable that was all I needed to worry about. 

Along the way my son's had some great coaches, good coaches, average coaches and bad coaches. No big deal not under my control. No big deal all part of the process. No big deal it's all part of the process. You see the parents that worried about the things outside of their control lost time taking care of the things they could control. And the players took on the attitude of the parents. The ones that had parents who used the coaches as an excuse had kids that used the coaches as an excuse. The ones that just focused on what they could control had parents that encouraged that as well.

Parents who see the athletic experience as ALL about their kid can't understand why everyone else doesn't either. Players who have been taught its all about them can't understand or grasp the team concept of sports. Its all about them. As long as their kid is playing and doing what they want him to do everything is great. As soon as that's not the case everything is wrong. But that's not the worst part. This attitude moves on to life. So don't be surprised to find that attitude permeating their adult life when the games are over. So don't complain about that selfish adult who's life is all about them down the road. You built it , your going to have to live with it. 

When they get that job and constantly complain about the boss it's ok they got it honest. When they constantly complain about their wife it's ok they got it honest. When they constantly complain about being a victim in life it's ok they got it honest. When nothing seems to be within their control but controlled by unfair outside forces it's ok they got it honest. When it's always about them it's ok they got it honest. When you have given them the crutches don't get upset when they constantly need them. It's ok they got it honest. 

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

I am not sure I could disagree with you more.  The parents are really the only ones who care enough to provide feedback and have a voice that can be heard.  Sure the students can have a voice, but the school has the right to discipline and ignore them.

Parents are the only ones who are actually watching the games. They care the most.  Who would provide constructive feedback other than parents?   The principal has all of the education and all sports programs to manage, too much to be actively involved.  Parents are the ones who are there. The only people actually available to view the product and provide informed opinion (and many parents uninformed opinions).  It is the job of the school and principal to weed out the uniformed opinion, take in all information and make decisions.  

Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  Literally everything a school needs to actually be a school.  Students and money.

 

Well you are 100% wrong.  When you have parents who do not care about the program and just care about their kid getting what they want then you are not objective and should not have a say.  In terms of protecting from abuse that is a different story.  

No I do not work for you and I never will no matter how much taxes you pay.  The person who has no kids in the school system pays taxes - do they have a say?  I pay taxes so does that mean I'm self-employed?  I'm basically paying my own salary when I pay taxes.  That is such a weak argument.  Parents should be involved as I stated before but absolutely should they NOT make the calls.

coach2709 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

I am not sure I could disagree with you more.  The parents are really the only ones who care enough to provide feedback and have a voice that can be heard.  Sure the students can have a voice, but the school has the right to discipline and ignore them.

Parents are the only ones who are actually watching the games. They care the most.  Who would provide constructive feedback other than parents?   The principal has all of the education and all sports programs to manage, too much to be actively involved.  Parents are the ones who are there. The only people actually available to view the product and provide informed opinion (and many parents uninformed opinions).  It is the job of the school and principal to weed out the uniformed opinion, take in all information and make decisions.  

Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  Literally everything a school needs to actually be a school.  Students and money.

 

Well you are 100% wrong.  When you have parents who do not care about the program and just care about their kid getting what they want then you are not objective and should not have a say.  In terms of protecting from abuse that is a different story.  

No I do not work for you and I never will no matter how much taxes you pay.  The person who has no kids in the school system pays taxes - do they have a say?  I pay taxes so does that mean I'm self-employed?  I'm basically paying my own salary when I pay taxes.  That is such a weak argument.  Parents should be involved as I stated before but absolutely should they NOT make the calls.

"Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. "

I agree,  it should not be about parents advancing their kids.  It is not about "having a say"  it is not a vote. It is about who are the concerned parties.  The school is hiring someone with parents money to coach the parents children.  They have the greatest vested interest.  If that coach is doing a poor job, the parents are the people most likely to notice.  The person who does not have kids in the school does not know or care. The parents have a right to voice concerns to management and they can ignore or not.  

And, it is not just tax dollars. I know at our school tax dollars don't cut it. We pay a large booster fee, we run events to raise money, build better facilities.  These things last way past my child being there.  We don't and should not make the calls, but we 100% have a voice.  Hell, the coach holds a meeting before the season starts and asks us to contribute...that comes at a price...

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

coach2709 posted:

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

That's great and the process is working the way it should.  We all have customers we have to listen to who have little of value to say.  I would guess more than 1% is valuable, but 1% if better than nothing.

Parents only see the games.  They don't see the practices.  They don't see who stands out in practice, and who hustles all out in practices.  They don't see, even in games, every wat that the kids interact with their teammates & coaches.

Parents do not at all have an informed perspective.   Ultimately, parents have the least informed perspective of everyone involved.  (Players, Coaches, Parents).

Back when I coached, I would experience such a thing frequently:

"Why isn't my kid playing Shortstop?  He was a great shortstop in Little League All Stars/13U Travel etc"

Well, we gave him opportunities at Short in practice.  He has the range of a fire hydrant (or maybe he just doesn't have as much range as a few other players on the roster).  He looks like nobody ever taught him how to do transfers correctly, he is way behind etc.  He pouted visibly in practice when we put him at 3B/LF etc

"Why isn't my kid playing Catcher?"

Besides the fact that he never brings his cup to practice?   Despite being told multiple times that he needs a cup at practice to be a catcher?

I could go on and on....

3and2Fastball posted:

Parents only see the games.  They don't see the practices.  They don't see who stands out in practice, and who hustles all out in practices.  They don't see, even in games, every wat that the kids interact with their teammates & coaches.

Parents do not at all have an informed perspective.   Ultimately, parents have the least informed perspective of everyone involved.  (Players, Coaches, Parents).

Back when I coached, I would experience such s thing frequently:

"Why isn't my kid playing Shortstop?  He was a great shortstop in Little League All Stars/13U Travel etc"

Well, we gave him opportunities at Short in practice.  He has the range of a fire hydrant (or maybe he just doesn't have as much range as a few other players on the roster).  He looks like nobody ever taught him how to do transfer correctly, he is way behind etc.  He pouted visibly in practice when we put him at 3B/LF etc

"Why isn't my kid playing Catcher?"

Besides the fact that he never brings his cup to practice?   Despite being told multiple times that he needs a cup at practice to be a catcher?

I could go on and on....

again....

"Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. "

The only say a parent has in a school sports program is to point it out to a person of power and responsibility if their kid is being physically or mentally abused. Not playing short and/or batting third is not abuse. Not being selected for the team is not abuse. Being benched is not abuse. Being disciplined for poor behavior is not abuse. 

No one is forcing a parent to have their kid play and contribute booster fees. The parent has the option to not have their kid participate. 

We just had a local case where an attorney argued on behalf of a baseball player and his family his constitutional rights were being denied. In the judge’s decision she noted there have been eighteen previous decisions in the US stating extracurricular activities at school are not a constitutional right. 

In terms of the baseball (or other sport) quality of the coaching you have to assume the AD knows what he/she is doing whether you agree or not. Parents should not be involved in hiring or firing coaches.

Well, first off that is embarrassing that someone would hire a lawyer and waste the governments time over youth sports playing time.  

As far as the rest, that is your opinion and obviously others are entitled to theirs.  Schools and athletic programs are most effective when there is active parental involvement.  This has been shown to be the case over and over.  Student achievement, test scores, college readiness, athletic enrollment, etc.  Like so many things too much is a bad thing and too little is as well. 

It has been my experience that most people perform better when they know they are being held accountable.  

Parents can participate in school sports by raising money for the team and cheering them on. Parents can file a complaint to the AD or principal about alleged physical or mental abuse of their child. Parents have no business having any part in the on the field decision making. This includes who is coaching and how. 

No! Don't Call

but we 100% have a voice.  Hell, the coach holds a meeting before the season starts and asks us to contribute...that comes at a price...

No, you don't.   The only time parents have a say is if there is a suspicion of  abuse or there is a health issue as previously posted.  Otherwise, it is a dictatorship with the coach in charge of all decisions on the field.  It is NOT a democracy. 

Parents may have a say in what the booster club does, but not what the team does on the field.

As they saying goes, if you don't like it, get your son, his glove and bat and leave.

You have 0% of a voice.  You have 100% of a choice.

You can choose to have your son not participate in a particular program.  

I suggest anyone who believes they get a direct say because they pay taxes pull over a cop and tell him how to do his job. If you want to eat dirt try doing it do a FBI Tactical Force member. 

Ok, where to start.  First, my kid plays and the coach is still an idiot.     

Second, if a parent has an issue with a math teacher being a really bad math teacher, they can and should say something.  I uncovered a math teacher using answer keys which where flat out wrong.   Should I just stay silent?  Who cares if the kids are struggling because their homework answer keys are wrong?  

I think it would go a long way for coaches/ADs (and others) to accept the power structure of any public school.  It starts with the voters.  You have three active communities of voters.  1)  Old people.    2) People that don't want their taxes to go up regardless.  These two groups show up for tax referendums.  3)  Parents of kids in school.  This group is engaged while their kids are in school plus/minus a few years.  School board members usually win their seats by a handful of votes.  So parents matter to them.  Once that is accepted, things are easier to manage and you can see where the pressure points are.  

Good districts will have good board members who are able to deal appropriately with all sorts of complaints.  And little Johnny not playing is just one of many they get every week.  Good Boards will hire good people -- and good Principals and good Ad's will provide somewhat of a shield behind which a coach can do his/her job.  But what parents and players mostly want is competence.  They don't want to pick the team, determine playing time and all of that.  The vast majority of programs go along without issue -- most are small, at the margin, and dealt with.  A small minority have issues and make the news. 

The big thing now is "old school" vs. "new school" coaching.  Things have definitely changed in that respect.  "Old school" is no longer acceptable - whether that is good or bad is a different conversation.  The parents wont accept it -- so they go to the board with the horrible "stories" and the the "old school" coach is gone.  Nobody has ever said the coach should be fired because he is too nice.    

Golfman25 posted:

Ok, where to start.  First, my kid plays and the coach is still an idiot.     

Second, if a parent has an issue with a math teacher being a really bad math teacher, they can and should say something.  I uncovered a math teacher using answer keys which where flat out wrong.   Should I just stay silent?  Who cares if the kids are struggling because their homework answer keys are wrong?  

I think it would go a long way for coaches/ADs (and others) to accept the power structure of any public school.  It starts with the voters.  You have three active communities of voters.  1)  Old people.    2) People that don't want their taxes to go up regardless.  These two groups show up for tax referendums.  3)  Parents of kids in school.  This group is engaged while their kids are in school plus/minus a few years.  School board members usually win their seats by a handful of votes.  So parents matter to them.  Once that is accepted, things are easier to manage and you can see where the pressure points are.  

Good districts will have good board members who are able to deal appropriately with all sorts of complaints.  And little Johnny not playing is just one of many they get every week.  Good Boards will hire good people -- and good Principals and good Ad's will provide somewhat of a shield behind which a coach can do his/her job.  But what parents and players mostly want is competence.  They don't want to pick the team, determine playing time and all of that.  The vast majority of programs go along without issue -- most are small, at the margin, and dealt with.  A small minority have issues and make the news. 

The big thing now is "old school" vs. "new school" coaching.  Things have definitely changed in that respect.  "Old school" is no longer acceptable - whether that is good or bad is a different conversation.  The parents wont accept it -- so they go to the board with the horrible "stories" and the the "old school" coach is gone.  Nobody has ever said the coach should be fired because he is too nice.    

 

ahhhh....a voice of reason.  I think the disconnect is the posters don't WANT this to be true.  They believe it SHOULD NOT be true.  That coaching is sacred and they should only answer to a disengaged principal.  

The reality is as you said, it is about influence.  If parents choose to place pressure on principals and school board members they can enact change.  The downside is when parents use it to advance their own children instead of what may be best for a program.  It is up to management to sort through that and not engage when the issue is personal.  

In our town we have a youthful and eager freshman coach and a 35 year veteran Varsity coach.   The varsity coaches teaching method for improving hitters is to yell...come on you got to drive that.  He is in part credited for the need to enact pitch count rules.  He talks for 20 minutes at the pre-season meeting about his open door policy for parents and how he is there to help and grow players and answer questions.  Then if a parent reaches out he brings it up to the players that some idiot parent came to see him.  Personally I don't think parents should talk to baseball coaches about their kids, but some do it and he tells them they should.  

The freshman coach teaches proper swing mechanics, bat plane and path, etc.  He videos himself at home at night with mechanical tips he saw as issues in that day's game and texts it to players.  If a former player goes to him for a lesson you have to fight him to take money as he says it is for the betterment of the program.  Twice now over the last few years the JV job has come open, but the varsity coach wont move him up...they don't see eye to eye on baseball matters.  Our JV coach is now a football coach.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  

Bwahahaha. This made my day. I'm hoping you're just a character or an alter ego trying to stir the pot. 

coach2709 posted:

Yes coaches should be scrutinized but that's not a parents job and never will be.  Yes you have your opinion and you have your background in baseball.  Could be you are very knowledgeable or could be you're clueless - doesn't matter because it's very difficult to be objective when you have a kid on the team.  For every objective parent out there who can correctly assess how a coach is doing there's MANY who cannot.  Plus, I don't work for you - you don't hire me or fire me (well you shouldn't). I work for the principal and the school system and as long as they are happy then the coach should stay.  If they are weak and give in to parents then you are actually doing the coach a favor because who wants to stay in that situation?

Don't get me wrong - parents are vital to a successful program but they have their role.  That role just doesn't happen to involve evaluating coaches to retain or remove from a job. 

I think there are two ways to look at that.  I do believe it is my job as a parent to scrutinize the coach.  My kids health could depend on that.  My kids development could depend on that.  You are or have been an AD correct?  Maybe you are one of the very very few good ones.  Most AD's I have come in contact with throughout my years of coaching had little to no idea what was going on in my program.  They were usually football coaches who couldn't care less about any other sport but it allowed the school to pay them more money.  Once I even had a priest AD cause the order wanted to prep him for administration and decided AD would be a good spot.  He had no clue athletically.  And don't even get me started on principals.  The higher up you go in education often the more inept the people become.  Yes as parents we do need to scrutinize the coaches though I think your greater point is that as a parent we do not have hiring/firing authority.  

coach2709 posted:

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

coach I like you and never have had a quarrel with you as far as i can remember and want to keep it that way but I must confess you are kind of hitting on a nerve here a little.  As a teacher and coach I can tell you that 99% of all things said in faculty meetings or even athletic department meetings is a total waste of time and hours of my life I will never get back.  You want nails on a chalk board?  Just listen to your average principal drone on in a faculty meeting.  Most teachers are screwing around in the back of the room like school kids.  We don't care!!!  Now that I am old and just sub I can not tell you how happy I am not to be in those meetings.  And maybe its a preconceived notion on both sides.  Maybe you go into that parent meeting with a bias.  I will openly admit I went into every faculty meeting with a bias.  Maybe I missed some good stuff cause I had determined long ago those meetings were a colossal waste of time.  Just food for thought.  

RJM posted:

The only say a parent has in a school sports program is to point it out to a person of power and responsibility if their kid is being physically or mentally abused. Not playing short and/or batting third is not abuse. Not being selected for the team is not abuse. Being benched is not abuse. Being disciplined for poor behavior is not abuse. 

No one is forcing a parent to have their kid play and contribute booster fees. The parent has the option to not have their kid participate. 

We just had a local case where an attorney argued on behalf of a baseball player and his family his constitutional rights were being denied. In the judge’s decision she noted there have been eighteen previous decisions in the US stating extracurricular activities at school are not a constitutional right. 

In terms of the baseball (or other sport) quality of the coaching you have to assume the AD knows what he/she is doing whether you agree or not. Parents should not be involved in hiring or firing coaches.

In a perfect world, the AD is making the best decision for the sport and the kids.  In reality, sometimes a coach is hired because she is the wife of a football coach they want to hire...or he is a football coach they want to hire, so he is also the new freshman or JV baseball coach.  That happens.   

I agree with much of what 3and2 said.  Times have changed.  High school coaches simply are not very good anymore.  Of course there are exceptions but the majority not very good.  My son does not play for his high school team.  Just a personal choice for a lot of reasons not only the coach.  We do have choices now.  And simply not playing there is one of those choices.  Its funny cause we live in an age where more information than ever is available to coaches and they just dont seem to want to drink.  I don't come on here much anymore cause I really tired of the arguments.  But you could go to the archives and find old threads from just a couple years ago with people on here, some coaches, actually advocating for hitting ground balls and denying that wingspan is a significant advantage for pitchers among other outdated points of view proven false beyond a shadow of a doubt by physics and statistics.  The tobacco spitters I call them.  "I don't care none about that science crap we do it old school here"  actually had a coach in a face to face discussion once tell me "I bet that physicist never played baseball"  I was sharing some Dr. Alan Nathan stuff with him.  He was having none of it.  He insisted you hit the top half of the ball to make it magically go up.  Now personally I don't know if Dr. Nathan played baseball or not.  Nor do I care.  The laws of physics apply even to Willie Mays.  Baseball coaches are some of the most backwards coaches of all.  Basketball coaches these days are afraid of their kids and run nothing resembling an offense.  It is street ball and they call it motion.  Bobby Knight the king of motion offense with many rules has to be shaking his head.  Football coaches  have no idea how to manage or manipulate the clock.  Maybe we could use a few more parents who never played the game to do some research and learn something then go into coaching!!

2020dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

coach I like you and never have had a quarrel with you as far as i can remember and want to keep it that way but I must confess you are kind of hitting on a nerve here a little.  As a teacher and coach I can tell you that 99% of all things said in faculty meetings or even athletic department meetings is a total waste of time and hours of my life I will never get back.  You want nails on a chalk board?  Just listen to your average principal drone on in a faculty meeting.  Most teachers are screwing around in the back of the room like school kids.  We don't care!!!  Now that I am old and just sub I can not tell you how happy I am not to be in those meetings.  And maybe its a preconceived notion on both sides.  Maybe you go into that parent meeting with a bias.  I will openly admit I went into every faculty meeting with a bias.  Maybe I missed some good stuff cause I had determined long ago those meetings were a colossal waste of time.  Just food for thought.  

I agree with you that having meetings to have meetings is pointless.  If I have an athletic department meeting then it's because it's important.  I try to handle everything face to face, email, text or phone call.  My principal is the same way and the atmosphere at our school is pretty positive.  If we have a meeting we do it during planning periods so nobody has to stay after school.  We are supposed to have a meeting tomorrow but he canceled it because he has nothing to go over.  That's how things should be done.

The flip side is most of the meetings we have is because we have to.  Start of each season we have to have a meeting before tryouts to discuss concussions, procedures and other things.  The state mandates this and kids and parents have to come to it because there is paperwork tied to it.  On my side of it I despise these meetings because I have no doubt that after their freshman year there's no need to have it.  No matter how much I try to change it up it's the same information over and over and I know for a fact the parents / kids hate coming to them.  But if they don't we get fined.  

As for me being a good AD or not it depends on who you ask.  Same with coaches, principals, teachers, plumbers, lawyers, doctors and every other profession.  For whatever reason some people just don't like others and think they are inept no matter what.  It is what it is but I like to think I'm a good one but I can probably point you in the direction of those who think I'm clueless.  They may be right to be honest.

How are parents the perfect choice to scrutinize teachers, coaches, principals or ADs?  Are they experts in those fields?  Do they have knowledge in budgeting matters, scheduling, conflict resolution and lesson planning?  Do they know how the 7 types of learning styles and how to create a differentiated lesson plan that hits all 7 types?  Do they know how to adjust lesson plans to reach the high flyers and the special needs kids who are all in the same class?  Granted there are teachers et al who stink at these things as well.  But we have a system in place that parents have an indirect voice.  People elect school board members, who hire board of education directors, who hire principals, who hire teachers and ADs.  Let them do their job because there is a reason we are not a direct democracy with our government - too many voices doesn't allow for any messages to be heard.

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

I see arrogance as the cause coach.  When I was cutting my teeth I started by keeping the book for the college I attended.  I loved basketball but was not talented enough to play in college so I was the official scorekeeper.  It allowed me to travel with the team and the coaches knew I wanted to be a high school teacher and coach so they mentored me along the way.  I always rode in the van with the coaches and we talked basketball for hours.  I was lucky this particular college coach was a great one.  But all veteran coaches in those days were eager to help the up and comers.  After I took my first job I still attended the college games when I could and hung out with them as much as possible.  Met other college coaches through them and picked all their brains.  When I was in my 20's for the most part I shut up and listened.  I hate to sound like the typical old guy but I guess thats what I am so I have to wear it.  Everyone wants the young bucks now who have 'energy'.  There are fewer and fewer veteran coaches.  The young guys don't spend the time we used to and in their defense don't have as many veteran coaches to mentor them like we did.  I could never coach boys now, maybe girls.  I would be run out of town on a rail.  I would run a strict patterned offesnse with far, far more opportunities for my better scorers.  No equal opportunity street ball motion for me.  Shooters shoot, rebounders rebound and passers pass!  Play your role or sit the bench.  These young coaches give into players and parents alike.  They run nothing on offense and care little about defense.  Their knowledge of the game is minimal and they are all 'players coaches'.  I must add I dont know the seven learning styles and couldnt care less.  1992 was the last time the US was number one in the world in education.  We are now below midpoint.  Sad.  In 1992 the kids came in sat in their assigned desk, shut up and we lectured while they took notes.  It worked and nobody gave a poop about learning styles.  It was about the greater good.  And when these kids get a job in corporate America nobody there will give a crap about their learning style either.  We are not preparing our kids well for real life anymore.  And also in 1992 schools hired people who could coach.  Now you have a bunch of admins who read books written by some Harvard dope smoker about some new theory of education and they hire dreamers who believe all that crap.  Worrying about who can coach gets zero consideration.  So now we have all these coaches from outside the building who are treating it like their personal play toy or hobby.  And they are arrogant and dont listent to anyone partially cause they dont spend their lives around other coaches like we used to.  

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

High School coaching is declining because The Game is passing a lot of those guys by.  Swing down to contact, the short quick guy plays middle infield, the fast guys hit at the top of the order (regardless of OBP), it is totally fine for a kid to go play Short or 3rd after pitching, the value of bunting, anybody can play first base, etc etc I could go on & on.... So many falsehoods that have been proven to be mostly a thing of the past.  

"Tobacco spitters", that is a good term for them, 2020Dad!   Parents & kids have gotten wise.  

Now look, I understand that in some parts of the country the high school Baseball is wonderful (consider yourself lucky!) and there are some great high school coaches out there, but from what I can tell a huge majority of high school Baseball coaches out there are glorified Phy Ed teachers/babysitters.

And don't get me started on the idiocy that goes on when a Baseball coach without a degree in exercise physiology supervises weight training.  Or the lack of knowledge when it comes to arm care for pitchers.  If my kid was a top flight pitcher with D1 or pro potential I would keep him far away from 99.9% of high school programs in America.  (Edit, OK maybe 98%)

High School coaches don't like Travel Ball because it has taken their control away.  They no longer get to manipulate families with threats of never making Varsity if a kid doesn't play in the high school summer Legion program.   They no longer hold all the cards when it comes to a kid's recruitment or lack thereof.

Yes, parents can be part of the problem for high school Baseball, but imho they are but a tip if the iceberg.

Now, I'm not the type of parent that would try to get a coach fired or try to change a program.  But I do recognize that there are other options.

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

If you work in a customer facing role and a customer complains to your boss and he fires you without proper justification, it is not the complaining customer's fault.  It is the fault of your boss and the company you work for.

Same in coaching.  Parents are customer's of the product you are providing.  You get scrutiny just like the rest of us in the business world.  Let me say it another way using coach speak...

Player -  "Coach I am not getting enough playing time, I want to play short, hit third, blah, blah"

Coach Response -  "be better"

Advice to coach.....take your own advice...

Soooooooooooo kids have changed but it's because of high school coaches and not parents?  Makes sense.  Veteran coaches are getting out because they are tired of the entitled attitudes of parents and kids alike.  Good coaches are avoiding this like the plague so people aren't going into teaching to coach anymore.  Guess who we are left with?  The not so good coaches.  Yes those people are their own worst enemy but why are they getting the jobs?  The good coaches don't want to deal with the drama that comes from parents and high school sports.

I don't have customers.  I have students.  What teachers give isn't tangible and most of the time won't be realized until much later in life.  The be better advice is the best thing anyone can ever say to someone else because it puts it back on the other person to take responsibility to get where they want.  So you do play for a bad coach because they are out there and you're not progressing.  Its still the player's fault because - as mentioned before - there is so much information out there you can learn it on your own.  Plus - as mentioned before - you have other options.  So if you're butt hurt over a bad high school coach that's your fault.  Because what you want to do doesn't go along with what the coach wants doesn't make him a bad coach.  I absolutely with full conviction call BS on the 98% of high school coaches are not very good comment.  Full on belief that it is BS.  You're letting your experience with a bad coach make you think that coaches in places you have never heard of are bad - that's just dumb.

2020dad posted:

I agree with much of what 3and2 said.  Times have changed.  High school coaches simply are not very good anymore.  Of course there are exceptions but the majority not very good.  My son does not play for his high school team.  Just a personal choice for a lot of reasons not only the coach.  We do have choices now.  And simply not playing there is one of those choices.  Its funny cause we live in an age where more information than ever is available to coaches and they just dont seem to want to drink.  I don't come on here much anymore cause I really tired of the arguments.  But you could go to the archives and find old threads from just a couple years ago with people on here, some coaches, actually advocating for hitting ground balls and denying that wingspan is a significant advantage for pitchers among other outdated points of view proven false beyond a shadow of a doubt by physics and statistics.  The tobacco spitters I call them.  "I don't care none about that science crap we do it old school here"  actually had a coach in a face to face discussion once tell me "I bet that physicist never played baseball"  I was sharing some Dr. Alan Nathan stuff with him.  He was having none of it.  He insisted you hit the top half of the ball to make it magically go up.  Now personally I don't know if Dr. Nathan played baseball or not.  Nor do I care.  The laws of physics apply even to Willie Mays.  Baseball coaches are some of the most backwards coaches of all.  Basketball coaches these days are afraid of their kids and run nothing resembling an offense.  It is street ball and they call it motion.  Bobby Knight the king of motion offense with many rules has to be shaking his head.  Football coaches  have no idea how to manage or manipulate the clock.  Maybe we could use a few more parents who never played the game to do some research and learn something then go into coaching!!

Baseball is still baseball.......it's been played for well over a hundred years. You can over lap footage of the best hitters or pitchers from Williams, Mantle, Ruth..........it really doesn't matter....... to current super stars and the very best found the most efficient manner to get it done without lessons, additional instruction, gimmick devices or science. That's simply an athlete being an athlete.

The biggest difference in the different eras is the relative strength and development that kids get today, much earlier than their predecessors.

We are living in the age of analytics and endless information. If Josh Donaldson says, "kids, if your coach tells you to hit down on the ball......." . As a parent you, one, have to realize your kid is not Josh Donaldson.......to use his swing or approach will likely result in failure. Donaldson can hit the ball any where he wants. He is a very skilled player and could actually hit targets placed in various places in the field. The same can be said for a very overwhelming majority of MLB players. Their skills with a bat are beyond most people's recognition, as they have limited exposure to high level players. We only see the HR swing that gets them paid...............

Ahhh, the dreaded high school coach isn't very good anymore...........Some good, some not so good. Most were teachers, gym coaches and health teachers.  Good coaches 30-40 years ago would likely be good coaches today. The best are always learning. My sons HS team isn't very good but they seem to enjoy playing the game with/for each other. That's a byproduct of the coaches.

Individual skills, game awareness and attitude.........is developed by the individuals drive and determination and it's their job to bring them to their team. A HS coach simply assembles the puzzle.

Travel baseball and the scores of former Milb, MLB and collegiate players that open academies teaching the skill blocks they honed as a pro/college players to 12 year olds for fees that would make a lawyer blush. Somehow, parents see this as the golden ticket to higher levels and this expectation carries over into the HS programs. We lose sight of community, school pride and life lessons working with a variety of different skill levels present. It's okay, to struggle through adversity, it builds character.

5% of all HS players move on to higher levels. It's obvious to me the game is about the 95% that play the game at the HS level and the lessons the game teaches. The 5%ers should lead by example. I believe most 5%ers are humble, looking forward to the challenges to come and understand what some parents really don't. If they aren't, college or Pro ball will be a hard lesson to absorb.

Skipping HS baseball for selfish reasons is robbing the individual of a once in a lifetime experience, as you can never go back. IMO

Well RJM, I guess the answer to your OP title question is "yes".  

Carry on, keyboard coach trashers.  

Oh, and for the record... my "customer" is 100% the young men that I coach.  It is NOT the parents.  And when I ask the parents to contribute, I make it very clear that it is their choice and will, under no circumstances, come with any preference or "come with a price".  Coach2709 is dead right, that this is travel mentality permeating into HS ball in a bad way.  And I, too, am a proponent of the benefits of travel ball.

 Veteran coaches are getting out because they are tired of the entitled attitudes of parents and kids alike............Coached for 25 years been out almost 20.  Yes I am that old school guy who actually expected my players to work hard and play the game the same way. To be fundamentally sound . I could have cared less who they were where they were from who their parents were. they were expected to perform well and if they did not somebody else would be put on the lineup card.  I read and see what has transpired over the years. If I was to coach today I would probably last about a week probably less. I would holler or raise my voice to a player because he made a dumb play or bench a kid who was not playing well to have a parent complain to the administration.  

coach2709 posted:

  Veteran coaches are getting out because they are tired of the entitled attitudes of parents and kids alike.  Good coaches are avoiding this like the plague so people aren't going into teaching to coach anymore. 

This is exceptionally accurate.

There is a ton of adversity in Travel Ball.  Especially for those who are striving to be on the top teams.  The competition is fierce just to make a team and get playing time, let alone get invited to Area Codes or Perfect Game Nationals.   And when you face the best competition, struggle is inevitable.

To say that kids skip high school ball to "avoid adversity" is just a hopelessly out of touch statement.

2020dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

I see arrogance as the cause coach.  When I was cutting my teeth I started by keeping the book for the college I attended.  I loved basketball but was not talented enough to play in college so I was the official scorekeeper.  It allowed me to travel with the team and the coaches knew I wanted to be a high school teacher and coach so they mentored me along the way.  I always rode in the van with the coaches and we talked basketball for hours.  I was lucky this particular college coach was a great one.  But all veteran coaches in those days were eager to help the up and comers.  After I took my first job I still attended the college games when I could and hung out with them as much as possible.  Met other college coaches through them and picked all their brains.  When I was in my 20's for the most part I shut up and listened.  I hate to sound like the typical old guy but I guess thats what I am so I have to wear it.  Everyone wants the young bucks now who have 'energy'.  There are fewer and fewer veteran coaches.  The young guys don't spend the time we used to and in their defense don't have as many veteran coaches to mentor them like we did.  I could never coach boys now, maybe girls.  I would be run out of town on a rail.  I would run a strict patterned offesnse with far, far more opportunities for my better scorers.  No equal opportunity street ball motion for me.  Shooters shoot, rebounders rebound and passers pass!  Play your role or sit the bench.  These young coaches give into players and parents alike.  They run nothing on offense and care little about defense.  Their knowledge of the game is minimal and they are all 'players coaches'.  I must add I dont know the seven learning styles and couldnt care less.  1992 was the last time the US was number one in the world in education.  We are now below midpoint.  Sad.  In 1992 the kids came in sat in their assigned desk, shut up and we lectured while they took notes.  It worked and nobody gave a poop about learning styles.  It was about the greater good.  And when these kids get a job in corporate America nobody there will give a crap about their learning style either.  We are not preparing our kids well for real life anymore.  And also in 1992 schools hired people who could coach.  Now you have a bunch of admins who read books written by some Harvard dope smoker about some new theory of education and they hire dreamers who believe all that crap.  Worrying about who can coach gets zero consideration.  So now we have all these coaches from outside the building who are treating it like their personal play toy or hobby.  And they are arrogant and dont listent to anyone partially cause they dont spend their lives around other coaches like we used to.  

And get off my lawn. 

(Luv you man)  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

If you work in a customer facing role and a customer complains to your boss and he fires you without proper justification, it is not the complaining customer's fault.  It is the fault of your boss and the company you work for.

Same in coaching.  Parents are customer's of the product you are providing.  You get scrutiny just like the rest of us in the business world.  Let me say it another way using coach speak...

Player -  "Coach I am not getting enough playing time, I want to play short, hit third, blah, blah"

Coach Response -  "be better"

Advice to coach.....take your own advice...

Once again, here in lies the problem.  This is not apples and apples.  The HS student is trying out for the competitive team with the goal of being one of the players chosen for the privilege of being part of that team, based on skill set and attitude toward contributing in a role that helps the team succeed.   He is not buying a gym/club membership where he is afforded all the same amenities and "pool time" as all the other members.  He is not paying for a sit-down dinner and critiquing the waiter, adjusting his tip accordingly.  It is competitive sports.  He must compete to earn his standing on a daily basis, not assume he is the paying customer and can buy his standing in the lineup.

If anything, it is the other way around.  The player is selling his skill set and attitude to the coach and the parent should be encouraging the player to work hard at continued efforts to do so....  just as you would with your son or daughter trying to get a better grade, get accepted to a prestigious school or work toward a scholarship or work hard at getting that internship that will put them in a better position for their future.  In all cases, working hard, utilizing resources, never quitting all are good paths.  Paying and expecting to get what you want, in these instances, not so good.

Yes, absolutely, the coach should be doing his part and helping each player "be better".  But, at some point each day, nine of the players are going to be better than the others, regardless of the extent of help the coach provides for the others.  So, the directive of "be better" is correct.  It is a matter of being better enough to surpass the other players who are also working hard at being better.  And I know very few HS coaches who are not willing to put in practically any amount of extra time for any individual player in his program to help him "be better".

3and2Fastball posted:

There is a ton of adversity in Travel Ball.  Especially for those who are striving to be on the top teams.  The competition is fierce just to make a team and get playing time, let alone get invited to Area Codes or Perfect Game Nationals.   And when you face the best competition, struggle is inevitable.

To say that kids skip high school ball to "avoid adversity" is just a hopelessly out of touch statement.

Having been immersed deeply in both over the last 15 years... I don't discount your point but the problem that people are alluding to is that once you make a travel ball team, you are often assured X amount of playing time, earned or not.  As with HS, there are certainly varying degrees.  But the general principals are fairly common... pay for travel ball, play x amount of innings (once you make the squad).  Make the HS team, work to earn playing time.

As evidence exhibit A & B, NoDon'tBunt has mentioned twice that contributing to the HS program "comes with a price".  That is the mentality being referenced.

cabbagedad posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

If you work in a customer facing role and a customer complains to your boss and he fires you without proper justification, it is not the complaining customer's fault.  It is the fault of your boss and the company you work for.

Same in coaching.  Parents are customer's of the product you are providing.  You get scrutiny just like the rest of us in the business world.  Let me say it another way using coach speak...

Player -  "Coach I am not getting enough playing time, I want to play short, hit third, blah, blah"

Coach Response -  "be better"

Advice to coach.....take your own advice...

Once again, here in lies the problem.  This is not apples and apples.  The HS student is trying out for the competitive team with the goal of being one of the players chosen for the privilege of being part of that team, based on skill set and attitude toward contributing in a role that helps the team succeed.   He is not buying a gym/club membership where he is afforded all the same amenities and "pool time" as all the other members.  He is not paying for a sit-down dinner and critiquing the waiter, adjusting his tip accordingly.  It is competitive sports.  He must compete to earn his standing on a daily basis, not assume he is the paying customer and can buy his standing in the lineup.

If anything, it is the other way around.  The player is selling his skill set and attitude to the coach and the parent should be encouraging the player to work hard at continued efforts to do so....  just as you would with your son or daughter trying to get a better grade, get accepted to a prestigious school or work toward a scholarship or work hard at getting that internship that will put them in a better position for their future.  In all cases, working hard, utilizing resources, never quitting all are good paths.  Paying and expecting to get what you want, in these instances, not so good.

Yes, absolutely, the coach should be doing his part and helping each player "be better".  But, at some point each day, nine of the players are going to be better than the others, regardless of the extent of help the coach provides for the others.  So, the directive of "be better" is correct.  It is a matter of being better enough to surpass the other players who are also working hard at being better.  And I know very few HS coaches who are not willing to put in practically any amount of extra time for any individual player in his program to help him "be better".

No, the analogy is for the coach and not the player. Of course the player has to perform, be better, compete.  The point is...so should the coach.  Continually improve, learn, be dedicated or you are subject to being sent to the bench...just like the player.  

cabbagedad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

There is a ton of adversity in Travel Ball.  Especially for those who are striving to be on the top teams.  The competition is fierce just to make a team and get playing time, let alone get invited to Area Codes or Perfect Game Nationals.   And when you face the best competition, struggle is inevitable.

To say that kids skip high school ball to "avoid adversity" is just a hopelessly out of touch statement.

Having been immersed deeply in both over the last 15 years... I don't discount your point but the problem that people are alluding to is that once you make a travel ball team, you are often assured X amount of playing time, earned or not.  As with HS, there are certainly varying degrees.  But the general principals are fairly common... pay for travel ball, play x amount of innings (once you make the squad).  Make the HS team, work to earn playing time.

I don't doubt this is the case, but I have never experienced it.  Travel ball in 3 states and multiple teams and leagues.  You always see paying kids not playing much.  You lose your spot the same as in high school ball except the competition is naturally better.  On average the 6-10 batters on a decent travel team are the top batters on their high school team.  

cabbagedad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

There is a ton of adversity in Travel Ball.  Especially for those who are striving to be on the top teams.  The competition is fierce just to make a team and get playing time, let alone get invited to Area Codes or Perfect Game Nationals.   And when you face the best competition, struggle is inevitable.

To say that kids skip high school ball to "avoid adversity" is just a hopelessly out of touch statement.

Having been immersed deeply in both over the last 15 years... I don't discount your point but the problem that people are alluding to is that once you make a travel ball team, you are often assured X amount of playing time, earned or not.  As with HS, there are certainly varying degrees.  But the general principals are fairly common... pay for travel ball, play x amount of innings (once you make the squad).  Make the HS team, work to earn playing time.

I don't know.  Seems it is easy to distinguish the travel ball team, which has a different overall goal, with the high school team. 

Travel ball has winning as a component.  But it also has a development component.  If we wanted to win, all we would do is play weaker teams and brag about our mercy rule wins on our web site.  The better teams look to play better competition, where they just may loose.  Teams have scheduling/tournament flexibility. 

HS, is pretty much about competing for that conference title, regional title, state title.  You don't get to pick your players as they all must be students.  You don't really get to pick your competition -- it's dictated by your conference.  Strong and weak teams change each year.  

Different teams, different requirements, imo.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

cabbagedad posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

If you work in a customer facing role and a customer complains to your boss and he fires you without proper justification, it is not the complaining customer's fault.  It is the fault of your boss and the company you work for.

Same in coaching.  Parents are customer's of the product you are providing.  You get scrutiny just like the rest of us in the business world.  Let me say it another way using coach speak...

Player -  "Coach I am not getting enough playing time, I want to play short, hit third, blah, blah"

Coach Response -  "be better"

Advice to coach.....take your own advice...

Once again, here in lies the problem.  This is not apples and apples.  The HS student is trying out for the competitive team with the goal of being one of the players chosen for the privilege of being part of that team, based on skill set and attitude toward contributing in a role that helps the team succeed.   He is not buying a gym/club membership where he is afforded all the same amenities and "pool time" as all the other members.  He is not paying for a sit-down dinner and critiquing the waiter, adjusting his tip accordingly.  It is competitive sports.  He must compete to earn his standing on a daily basis, not assume he is the paying customer and can buy his standing in the lineup.

If anything, it is the other way around.  The player is selling his skill set and attitude to the coach and the parent should be encouraging the player to work hard at continued efforts to do so....  just as you would with your son or daughter trying to get a better grade, get accepted to a prestigious school or work toward a scholarship or work hard at getting that internship that will put them in a better position for their future.  In all cases, working hard, utilizing resources, never quitting all are good paths.  Paying and expecting to get what you want, in these instances, not so good.

Yes, absolutely, the coach should be doing his part and helping each player "be better".  But, at some point each day, nine of the players are going to be better than the others, regardless of the extent of help the coach provides for the others.  So, the directive of "be better" is correct.  It is a matter of being better enough to surpass the other players who are also working hard at being better.  And I know very few HS coaches who are not willing to put in practically any amount of extra time for any individual player in his program to help him "be better".

No, the analogy is for the coach and not the player. Of course the player has to perform, be better, compete.  The point is...so should the coach.  Continually improve, learn, be dedicated or you are subject to being sent to the bench...just like the player.  

Already happens.  As a coach, I am given formal evaluation on an annual basis and it is fairly detailed and given by my supervisors, just as in any other work environment.  Same with the majority of my peers.

Another common fallacy is that HS coaches don't keep up with changes.  Sure, there are old-timers who stick to what they believe and are slow to change.  But the majority of HS coaches I know are passionate about the sport and certainly keep up on any trends of change.  I definitely qualify chronologically as an old-timer.  But my wife will be quick to tell you that I still spend WAY too much time following the game and current trends and how to be better at helping the players in our program better and helping the teams play better.  Again, the same can be said of most of my peers.

I have a good friend who had a son come thru our program.  Son was a talented 3-sport kid who went on to have a successful 4-yr college baseball career.  The dad is a high level guy in the local public service community.  Upstanding in every way.  But, when his kid was on the athletic field/court, this dad became an entirely different person.  He was probably the most jaded I've seen when it comes to seeing things thru rose-colored glasses for his own kid.  We all have at least a little bit of this guy in us.  It is our natural instinct to see the best in our kids.  It often is extremely difficult to impossible to see things objectively when comparing with other kids around ours.  There is absolutely no way that this guy or any version of him as a parent should be the ones making any decisions regarding coaching.  Yes, of course, their voices need to be heard and there should be complete protection against any abuse or safety issues.  But, unfortunately, the HUGE majority of parent feedback that athletic directors get are unhappiness with the extent of playing time their kids get (or some thinly veiled excuse to bring light to the same) .  And that is the feedback that is always slanted heavily due to bias... 

Someone else pointed out an instance when the coach was scolded by the parent because the coach considered school testing more important than the game.  It blows me away how much more emotionally attached parents get with their kids when it comes to sports as compared to things that should be more important.  The most frequent criticism I get is because I take precautions in the interest of health/safety of the young men, mostly with arm care concerns.  The parents are quick to point out, for example, how their kid can pitch complete games, they have been doing so since they were eight. 

Golfman25 posted:

cabbagedad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

There is a ton of adversity in Travel Ball.  Especially for those who are striving to be on the top teams.  The competition is fierce just to make a team and get playing time, let alone get invited to Area Codes or Perfect Game Nationals.   And when you face the best competition, struggle is inevitable.

To say that kids skip high school ball to "avoid adversity" is just a hopelessly out of touch statement.

Having been immersed deeply in both over the last 15 years... I don't discount your point but the problem that people are alluding to is that once you make a travel ball team, you are often assured X amount of playing time, earned or not.  As with HS, there are certainly varying degrees.  But the general principals are fairly common... pay for travel ball, play x amount of innings (once you make the squad).  Make the HS team, work to earn playing time.

I don't know.  Seems it is easy to distinguish the travel ball team, which has a different overall goal, with the high school team. 

Travel ball has winning as a component.  But it also has a development component.  If we wanted to win, all we would do is play weaker teams and brag about our mercy rule wins on our web site.  The better teams look to play better competition, where they just may loose.  Teams have scheduling/tournament flexibility. 

HS, is pretty much about competing for that conference title, regional title, state title.  You don't get to pick your players as they all must be students.  You don't really get to pick your competition -- it's dictated by your conference.  Strong and weak teams change each year.  

Different teams, different requirements, imo.  

Well, I agree with some of what you said.  Don't forget that, at some point (in player age), most travel also has an element of exposure, which makes agreed-upon playing time necessary.

Also, there are plenty of poor-to-fair travel teams who strive to play better schedules to get better.  Similarly with HS, we typically put together a very strong non-league schedule to make us better and to prepare us for the end-of-year run.  Also, in many areas, HS teams and leagues are regularly re-aligned to keep things reasonably competitive-balanced.

Will and Coach I absolutely agree with both of you that the parental culture now has driven many from coaching. And Will I basically said same as you I would be fired almost immediately now.  I think though it's possible to have two problems at once going on here.  Parents AND coaches are getting worse!!   But let's still leave room for the administrators who are just beyond clueless these days.  If a parent complains they must be right because the snowflake administrator never played a sport in his/her life and secretly despises the athletic culture.  And sometimes not so secretly.  The 'man's man' is now toxically masculine.  Athletes necessarily must be dumb as a rock and not worthy of respect or consideration. The world has turned upside down.  Its unrecognizable from 40 years ago.  There is blame to go around.  

I know I am off topic now so I Will keep it brief...   sports are dying in America.  Evidence is all around us but we don't want to see it.   Within 50 years athletes could be a counter cultural cult.  I think part of what we are seeing here is that disconnect between the traditional athletic families and the new wave softer culture who just doesn't get us at all and thinks we are barbaric and unsophisticated lacking their coolness and wisdom beyond their years.  Smug.  

I will readily agree there is a ton of blame to go around to MANY stakeholders.  Also, in my experience the best principals are the ones who have coached before.  They get it because they went through it.

In terms of the scrutinizing aspect I'm wrapping up my 6th year as AD at my school.  I have yet to have a parent come up and say "coach so and so is doing a really good job.  I'm glad they are our coach".  But I have definitely heard "coach so and so is terrible.  You need to fire him".  I always reply with "and replace them with who? Nobody is lining up to take the job because they don't want to hear it from you".  Luckily I have the principal I do because I tell parents the truth.  I do it as nicely and professionally I can but it will always be the truth.  I won't be surprised if I get fired with a new principal.

coach2709 posted:

I will readily agree there is a ton of blame to go around to MANY stakeholders.  Also, in my experience the best principals are the ones who have coached before.  They get it because they went through it.

In terms of the scrutinizing aspect I'm wrapping up my 6th year as AD at my school.  I have yet to have a parent come up and say "coach so and so is doing a really good job.  I'm glad they are our coach".  But I have definitely heard "coach so and so is terrible.  You need to fire him".  I always reply with "and replace them with who? Nobody is lining up to take the job because they don't want to hear it from you".  Luckily I have the principal I do because I tell parents the truth.  I do it as nicely and professionally I can but it will always be the truth.  I won't be surprised if I get fired with a new principal.

Lol.  Well I hope you don't.  But agree about principals who have coached.  I only had one of those but yes he was a lot more rational.  These days you don't find many principals who were coaches.  

2020dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

coach I like you and never have had a quarrel with you as far as i can remember and want to keep it that way but I must confess you are kind of hitting on a nerve here a little.  As a teacher and coach I can tell you that 99% of all things said in faculty meetings or even athletic department meetings is a total waste of time and hours of my life I will never get back.  You want nails on a chalk board?  Just listen to your average principal drone on in a faculty meeting.  Most teachers are screwing around in the back of the room like school kids.  We don't care!!!  Now that I am old and just sub I can not tell you how happy I am not to be in those meetings.  And maybe its a preconceived notion on both sides.  Maybe you go into that parent meeting with a bias.  I will openly admit I went into every faculty meeting with a bias.  Maybe I missed some good stuff cause I had determined long ago those meetings were a colossal waste of time.  Just food for thought.  

Most meetings are a waste of time. Most information can be passed in memos/emails.  Often people in authority hold meetings to justify their importance. Very successful business people don’t waste time on a lot of meetings. They don’t have time. They don’t want to waste time. 

On the other hand there are successful companies who waste time with the structure of scheduled meetings at determined times of the week or month. But it’s still a waste of time. 

baseballhs posted:

RJM posted:

The only say a parent has in a school sports program is to point it out to a person of power and responsibility if their kid is being physically or mentally abused. Not playing short and/or batting third is not abuse. Not being selected for the team is not abuse. Being benched is not abuse. Being disciplined for poor behavior is not abuse. 

No one is forcing a parent to have their kid play and contribute booster fees. The parent has the option to not have their kid participate. 

We just had a local case where an attorney argued on behalf of a baseball player and his family his constitutional rights were being denied. In the judge’s decision she noted there have been eighteen previous decisions in the US stating extracurricular activities at school are not a constitutional right. 

In terms of the baseball (or other sport) quality of the coaching you have to assume the AD knows what he/she is doing whether you agree or not. Parents should not be involved in hiring or firing coaches.

In a perfect world, the AD is making the best decision for the sport and the kids.  In reality, sometimes a coach is hired because she is the wife of a football coach they want to hire...or he is a football coach they want to hire, so he is also the new freshman or JV baseball coach.  That happens.   

While some high schools go further at the core high schools sports is nothing but an extra curricular activity. School is not designed for advancing athletic skills. A perk at our high school deciding winning was important. They had been losing a lot of good athletes to privates. This translates into lost attendance reimbursement money from the state and federal government. They hired the right AD who hired the right coaches. 

Most of the rest of the world thinks the American collegiate sports model is insane. When I was a kid I didn’t understand why Canadian kids came to the US to play college hockey. Why not play in Canada? In Canada where hockey is king it’s not valued at the college level since it’s not education. 

Times have changed.  High school coaches simply are not very good anymore.

A lot of the good ones are fed up with dealing with parents and quit. Or they were run off by parents for silliness. They can make more and be in more control of their destiny working at, or owning academies. Three of the top four high schools in our conference recently lost their coaches. They now have an academy.

coach2709 posted:

 

... I'm wrapping up my 6th year as AD at my school.  I have yet to have a parent come up and say "coach so and so is doing a really good job.  I'm glad they are our coach".  But I have definitely heard "coach so and so is terrible.  You need to fire him".  ....

OK, gang, let that sink in for a minute...  An AD for six years across multiple sports, boys and girls...  so do you really think all those coaches were bad?  This is today's reality.

Our V team is winning so I am not currently getting much negative parent noise.  Our JV team is not winning as much as they did last year.  They actually have more talent.  There is a new JV coach.  The old one took a HC V position at neighboring school.  Both guys are good.  College experience, trying to do the right things, set example for the boys on and off the field, continued growth in the position, etc.

The only knock on they guy from last year is that he leaned too heavily toward winning and not enough toward developing the younger guys.  He would leave P's in all game when there were other P's that needed innings (remember, this is JV - play to win but win while developing all players).  The new guy finds a better balance.  He has been the V pitching coach for a few years and knows the program well.  We also had a good wave of talented freshmen come in and some juniors who were not able to make the jump to V.  The juniors played last year but are playing less this year because the freshmen are beating them out.  Guess who is upset and complaining to the AD regularly.  The parents of the juniors.  "They miss coach X, he was so much better"  "He (new guy) doesn't know how to coach, look at the record"  "Why did we let coach X go?",  blah blah, etc. etc.  I know both coaches very well - we are all friends and all on the same page.  Net strength as coaches, almost identical.  The new coach is more accomplished as a college player and actually a bit better at development, particularly with pitchers.  Interestingly, the two are best friends and talk all the time.  What the parents don't know is that the old coach would be making exactly the same decisions with playing the freshmen over the juniors.  But, so it goes, those parents are convinced that their sons are getting screwed  because of the coaching change and are trying to make life miserable for the new coach.

  Do ya think there might be a correlation between having parents trying to fight their playing time battles and why these juniors are still on JV?  

coach2709 posted:

2020dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.  

coach I like you and never have had a quarrel with you as far as i can remember and want to keep it that way but I must confess you are kind of hitting on a nerve here a little.  As a teacher and coach I can tell you that 99% of all things said in faculty meetings or even athletic department meetings is a total waste of time and hours of my life I will never get back.  You want nails on a chalk board?  Just listen to your average principal drone on in a faculty meeting.  Most teachers are screwing around in the back of the room like school kids.  We don't care!!!  Now that I am old and just sub I can not tell you how happy I am not to be in those meetings.  And maybe its a preconceived notion on both sides.  Maybe you go into that parent meeting with a bias.  I will openly admit I went into every faculty meeting with a bias.  Maybe I missed some good stuff cause I had determined long ago those meetings were a colossal waste of time.  Just food for thought.  

I agree with you that having meetings to have meetings is pointless.  If I have an athletic department meeting then it's because it's important.  I try to handle everything face to face, email, text or phone call.  My principal is the same way and the atmosphere at our school is pretty positive.  If we have a meeting we do it during planning periods so nobody has to stay after school.  We are supposed to have a meeting tomorrow but he canceled it because he has nothing to go over.  That's how things should be done.

The flip side is most of the meetings we have is because we have to.  Start of each season we have to have a meeting before tryouts to discuss concussions, procedures and other things.  The state mandates this and kids and parents have to come to it because there is paperwork tied to it.  On my side of it I despise these meetings because I have no doubt that after their freshman year there's no need to have it.  No matter how much I try to change it up it's the same information over and over and I know for a fact the parents / kids hate coming to them.  But if they don't we get fined.  

As for me being a good AD or not it depends on who you ask.  Same with coaches, principals, teachers, plumbers, lawyers, doctors and every other profession.  For whatever reason some people just don't like others and think they are inept no matter what.  It is what it is but I like to think I'm a good one but I can probably point you in the direction of those who think I'm clueless.  They may be right to be honest.

How are parents the perfect choice to scrutinize teachers, coaches, principals or ADs?  Are they experts in those fields?  Do they have knowledge in budgeting matters, scheduling, conflict resolution and lesson planning?  Do they know how the 7 types of learning styles and how to create a differentiated lesson plan that hits all 7 types?  Do they know how to adjust lesson plans to reach the high flyers and the special needs kids who are all in the same class?  Granted there are teachers et al who stink at these things as well.  But we have a system in place that parents have an indirect voice.  People elect school board members, who hire board of education directors, who hire principals, who hire teachers and ADs.  Let them do their job because there is a reason we are not a direct democracy with our government - too many voices doesn't allow for any messages to be heard.

Teachers and coaches are a lot like the news. You will never see a headline ... Hundreds of healthy babies were born today. You will hear about the one baby that was abused. 

Each of my kids had one horrible teacher. It’s the only time I had to deal with teachers. My kids rarely talked about their really good teachers. When parents are challenged with some of your questions the fur on their back goes up.

I was challenged by a middle school teacher. She said my daughter couldn’t do math due to one standardized test score. The teacher wanted to keep her out of advanced math classes. I got my way. The teacher assured me my daughter would flunk the class. She got an A. My daughter graduated from college PBK as a STEM major. Because this one teacher was an arse I didn’t label all teachers as arses. Some people get stuck on one impression and label the group. 

3and2Fastball posted:

coach2709 posted:

The reason why high school coaching is declining is because of parents.  I'm a supporter of travel baseball but it has created a culture that just because you pay for it then it entitles you to playing time everywhere.  While that is not always the case for everyone it has created the situation where coaches are fired for not playing a kid with squeaky wheel parents.  This is also created by weak administrators.  Parents don't like what high school has become but the loud minority has only themselves to thank for it.

High School coaching is declining because The Game is passing a lot of those guys by.  Swing down to contact, the short quick guy plays middle infield, the fast guys hit at the top of the order (regardless of OBP), it is totally fine for a kid to go play Short or 3rd after pitching, the value of bunting, anybody can play first base, etc etc I could go on & on.... So many falsehoods that have been proven to be mostly a thing of the past.  

"Tobacco spitters", that is a good term for them, 2020Dad!   Parents & kids have gotten wise.  

Now look, I understand that in some parts of the country the high school Baseball is wonderful (consider yourself lucky!) and there are some great high school coaches out there, but from what I can tell a huge majority of high school Baseball coaches out there are glorified Phy Ed teachers/babysitters.

And don't get me started on the idiocy that goes on when a Baseball coach without a degree in exercise physiology supervises weight training.  Or the lack of knowledge when it comes to arm care for pitchers.  If my kid was a top flight pitcher with D1 or pro potential I would keep him far away from 99.9% of high school programs in America.  (Edit, OK maybe 98%)

High School coaches don't like Travel Ball because it has taken their control away.  They no longer get to manipulate families with threats of never making Varsity if a kid doesn't play in the high school summer Legion program.   They no longer hold all the cards when it comes to a kid's recruitment or lack thereof.

Yes, parents can be part of the problem for high school Baseball, but imho they are but a tip if the iceberg.

Now, I'm not the type of parent that would try to get a coach fired or try to change a program.  But I do recognize that there are other options.

I was in high school in the 70’s. I’ve asked friends who played high school sports in that era what their coaches knew. Most of them said “not much” even though they played in very good programs. Coaching hasn’t changed that much. There have always been good and bad coaches. There have always been more informed and less informed coaches. 

Each person’s view is going to be based on their personal experience. When my son was a soph on varsity I had serious questions about his coach. But I could see the progress. Regardless of his ability the team had a second and two first while my son was there. So it was a positive experience. 

The coach’s first season my son was in 8th grade. Over the next two years the team was 11-31. They lost way too many one run games. The next year there were dads of juniors and seniors ripping the coach for his record. They, with all their rec ball coaching experience were constantly selling to other parents how bad the coach is. They overlooked lack of talent and attitude was a problem. 

The team didn’t compete for first because my son and one other kid made varsity. They were the only newcomers. The team improved because the coach was improving as a coach. There were less head scratching moves. 

When my son graduated I thought about telling the coach he could improve his communication skills. They definitely were lacking. But how do you sell criticism to a coach coming off back to back first place finishes? Plus I figured it’s like standing there with your pants down if he tells me to stick it where the sun doesn’t shine. 

It took time for a former D2 captain as a player and assistant at a top high school program to be a head coach. But he eventually left due to the parents. He now owns an academy with other former high school coaches who quit in their prime.

2020dad posted:

Will and Coach I absolutely agree with both of you that the parental culture now has driven many from coaching. And Will I basically said same as you I would be fired almost immediately now.  I think though it's possible to have two problems at once going on here.  Parents AND coaches are getting worse!!   But let's still leave room for the administrators who are just beyond clueless these days.  If a parent complains they must be right because the snowflake administrator never played a sport in his/her life and secretly despises the athletic culture.  And sometimes not so secretly.  The 'man's man' is now toxically masculine.  Athletes necessarily must be dumb as a rock and not worthy of respect or consideration. The world has turned upside down.  Its unrecognizable from 40 years ago.  There is blame to go around.  

Yep.  The world is completely upside down.  Coaches like to complain about parents.  Well it doesn't stop there.  The customer - business relationship has been frayed as well.  If you're in retail/food you know people can be downright nasty.  Look at voter - politician relationship -- seen a good "town hall" lately.  Race, gender, and on and on.  Everyone wants theirs.  All we do is scream at each other.  It's mob rule.  

2020dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

I will readily agree there is a ton of blame to go around to MANY stakeholders.  Also, in my experience the best principals are the ones who have coached before.  They get it because they went through it.

In terms of the scrutinizing aspect I'm wrapping up my 6th year as AD at my school.  I have yet to have a parent come up and say "coach so and so is doing a really good job.  I'm glad they are our coach".  But I have definitely heard "coach so and so is terrible.  You need to fire him".  I always reply with "and replace them with who? Nobody is lining up to take the job because they don't want to hear it from you".  Luckily I have the principal I do because I tell parents the truth.  I do it as nicely and professionally I can but it will always be the truth.  I won't be surprised if I get fired with a new principal.

Lol.  Well I hope you don't.  But agree about principals who have coached.  I only had one of those but yes he was a lot more rational.  These days you don't find many principals who were coaches.  

In middle school there was a new female principal who never played sports. By spring of her first year she decided to handle parental complaints with everyone makes the team with equal playing time. 26 baseball players shared 7 innings.

The next year my son and all the other good baseball players signed up for lacrosse. Due to the physicality of lacrosse kids wouldn’t sign up just to be on the team. They weren’t quitting baseball. They were on travel teams. But they weren’t going to waste their time with 26 players in practice and games. 

The high school varsity baseball coach freaked out. He was afraid these kids would like lacrosse and not play baseball in high school. He had to use the might of the board to rescind the principal’s rule. 

cabbagedad posted:

coach2709 posted:

 

... I'm wrapping up my 6th year as AD at my school.  I have yet to have a parent come up and say "coach so and so is doing a really good job.  I'm glad they are our coach".  But I have definitely heard "coach so and so is terrible.  You need to fire him".  ....

OK, gang, let that sink in for a minute...  An AD for six years across multiple sports, boys and girls...  so do you really think all those coaches were bad?  This is today's reality.

Our V team is winning so I am not currently getting much negative parent noise.  Our JV team is not winning as much as they did last year.  They actually have more talent.  There is a new JV coach.  The old one took a HC V position at neighboring school.  Both guys are good.  College experience, trying to do the right things, set example for the boys on and off the field, continued growth in the position, etc.

The only knock on they guy from last year is that he leaned too heavily toward winning and not enough toward developing the younger guys.  He would leave P's in all game when there were other P's that needed innings (remember, this is JV - play to win but win while developing all players).  The new guy finds a better balance.  He has been the V pitching coach for a few years and knows the program well.  We also had a good wave of talented freshmen come in and some juniors who were not able to make the jump to V.  The juniors played last year but are playing less this year because the freshmen are beating them out.  Guess who is upset and complaining to the AD regularly.  The parents of the juniors.  "They miss coach X, he was so much better"  "He (new guy) doesn't know how to coach, look at the record"  "Why did we let coach X go?",  blah blah, etc. etc.  I know both coaches very well - we are all friends and all on the same page.  Net strength as coaches, almost identical.  The new coach is more accomplished as a college player and actually a bit better at development, particularly with pitchers.  Interestingly, the two are best friends and talk all the time.  What the parents don't know is that the old coach would be making exactly the same decisions with playing the freshmen over the juniors.  But, so it goes, those parents are convinced that their sons are getting screwed  because of the coaching change and are trying to make life miserable for the new coach.

  Do ya think there might be a correlation between having parents trying to fight their playing time battles and why these juniors are still on JV?  

Cabbage your usually a pretty clear thinker and a tough spot indeed. We all know it's impossible to make everyone happy. Every parent has their own agenda as does every player. Sometimes a parents agenda isn't even close to the players, if you were to ask them separately. A HS coach has limited monetary interest in an individual player, unlike the travel coach that makes his livelihood on promoting players for profit. That in fact, is a lot of moving pieces to manage for a multitude of individual reasons. I commend any HS coach for doing their best in that or todays perceived  culture.

I personally have reached out to the HS coach via text, to let him know he does a good job and most kids won't see it as clearly until they are far removed from the game and have kids playing themselves. I have no other interest but to let him know his effort is recognized. On the flip side, the program is weak.........Not really the HS coaches fault but it is the parents within the community for not creating a culture and environment for players to improve. Most HS parents blame the HS coach, when in fact it starts many years before they set foot on the HS field. He is simply assembling the best players the community has developed and placed at his feet.

Parents tend to have selfish views in relation to their player and others competing for a spot. The game is simply not about them alone and they are nothing as a stand alone talent but become something unique and special when they work together as a squad or team.

I seen the (lack of)culture within my community and took my son ('18) 50 mins away where I coached him at an academy, a place where like minded take their players to get better. Fast forward to senior year.......the  local HS team is OK, I wondered at one point if I had just stayed in the local community and coached would they be better? Would my son still be D1 bound? We'll never know but I chose to stay within the community for my youngest son and battle a community with no baseball culture by attempting to creating one. Who knows, I may choose to move him out as well....time will tell.

On the tax payer front.........I'm guessing a parent never went to the math teacher to attempt changing the math assignments/problems when jr had problems with Algebra. The good "tax payer" contingency would be doing more of a service to take the attitude of " tax payer" and running the show to the city council/community level by focusing on real things that will improve quality of life for all.  We all love baseball, but it's such a small window in time. JMO

Unfortunately, I think a big piece that has created such high expectations from the parents is the fact that they are heavily financially invested in the program. 

Back in the day, HS sports were like "advanced" PE.  They didn't invite parents to preseason meetings and ask for support.  Just another class in the parents eyes.  No one would ever go to their sons PE coach and ask why is my kid not getting in better shape.  Parents hardly spent a dime on their kids for sports.  Maybe an occasional glove, cleats, or bat, but that's it!

Today parents have had to fund sports from the get go.  With a lot more expenses than years past.  Which include everything from private lessons to travel and annual gear for multiple teams from head to toe.  

Heck in LL when I was kid, if you should up to practice in uniform YOU were the dork!  Jeans, T-shirt , and hat was the norm at practice.  As a dad  I was shocked the first time we went to t-ball and every kid was equipped like a pro.  Multiple gloves, bats, matching helmets, full on uniform, and etc...  I was shocked and quickly conformed to burning $300 a season  in BS equipment.  

Get to HS and all the sports programs are begging for money.  Rich programs with what I consider close to college level facility and equipment.  

Of course, a HS program asks for support from parents they are going to get it.  The more support they ask for the more they will get.  Unfortunately some of the support will not be in the coaches favor.  

RJM posted:

Parents can participate in school sports by raising money for the team and cheering them on. Parents can file a complaint to the AD or principal about alleged physical or mental abuse of their child. Parents have no business having any part in the on the field decision making. This includes who is coaching and how. 

Hell, if your child is being abused then you alert the authorities, and that includes the police. There is a big difference between that and a parent relentlessly lobbying for their son to get more playing time, or to second guess coaching strategy.

It is very easy to sit back and take shots at people. Coaches are no different. Do I have to say it again? Ok I will go ahead and say it. There are bad coaches. There are average coaches. There are good coaches. But before people simply take shots I wish they could consider some things. How many of those people taking shots have ever gone to a game their son was not playing in? How invested will they be in this program once their kid is no longer in it? When was the last time they missed time with their family to spend it with someone else's kid? When was the last time they spent 3 hours in a day working with other people's kids? Have they ever had to make out a line up? Have they ever had to cut a player? Have they ever been responsible for anything other than just making sure their kid was there? 

I know I spend way more time with other peoples kids than I do with my own family. I have no idea how it will break down this year but I doubt I make more than a couple bucks an hour. It's very easy to bash and trash. What have these bashers and trashers done? Graced us with letting us coach their stud? Before he was here we never saw you. After he leaves we will never see you again. But while you are here your going to make sure we do things the way you think they should be done. Ok.

I think some people would benefit from having to invest a little more in the process than just dropping the kid off at school and picking him up after practice. Maybe look a little deeper and put yourself in someone else's shoes? I say all of this and have ZERO complaints with my parents. They are awesome. They support our program and they have raised some great young men. I challenge anyone who has never coached to coach. I challenge those who find themselves constantly having issues with coaches to coach. Maybe that would help you out. 

I wish everyone of my players could start. I wish everyone of my players would have a great game. I wish everyone of my players was happy and right where they wanted to be 100 percent of the time. But guess what life isn't like that. Maybe learning to deal with a bad coach is more of a blessing than having a good coach? Maybe we get exactly what were supposed to get to make us who we need to be? Maybe if we stop allowing ourselves to be victims we can find a way to be champions? But that dang Coach he just screws it all up. It's ok Coach. In a few years it will be the boss. It will be the Cop. It will be the wife. You will be replaced by something else. Victims are like that. They have no shortage of excuses to find. Don't get mad at them. That's just what they do. 

This is not a high school story per se, but I'll share it anyways.  When our son was dropped off at college, he was barely 18 years old and our whole family was excited about his future baseball prospects.  He had a good fall season and the Coach sent a Christmas card with a nice personal note complimenting him on his work ethic among other things.  The future seemed unbelievably bright at the time.  A few short weeks later spring practice started and he did not have quite the same success as he had in the fall but he still felt pretty decent about things.  A day before opening day, all the players got their respective uniforms except him.  He was very concerned and asked the equipment manager about his uniform and was assured his uniform was on the way.  The next day on opening day of the college season and a few hours before the game, he finally asked the coach as to his status and they told him point blank he was redshirted.  The hard, cold reality of baseball had set in and in a rather cruel way I thought at the time. 

He called me in tears to tell me the news.  I refused to feel sorry for him.  I swallowed my pride and rather than say anything negative about how things had transpired (i.e., how I thought the coaches poorly handled things), I told him to focus on those things under his control.  I told him to be the best redshirt player in the country.  I told him to be the biggest cheerleader on the team.  I told him, if the water cooler needed carried, then carry it.  Told him to be the first at practice every day and the last to leave - like I had always told him.  Told him to dive for balls in practice to show those coaches he was serious about getting better.  Told him to have the best attitude on the team and finally, told him to be the best leader on the team even though he was a redshirt player.  That was a painful conversation but my son stepped up and became a man that day.  He did all those things and more and eventually - luck came his way and he was ready. 

Parents - Coach May talked about it in another thread.  Coaches are looking for reasons to give kids an opportunity.  That is how to encourage your kids.  Nobody can control a good, bad, or lousy coach's decision, but everyone can control their attitude and effort.   

I love that story. I remember my son's journey as well. Not once did I ever offer an excuse. I offered encouragement. I offered up tough love. I offered a shoulder to lean on. I offered my advice and wisdom. But never an excuse. I watched him go through some tough storms. I saw him have tremendous success and some failure. I saw him grow. I saw him become a man I am very proud of. I saw him come through it all a better person for it all. And saw him realize his dream. 

There is no way I was ever going to hinder that positive growth by being his crutch to follow failure's path. Coaches don't make you and they don't break you. You have to be bigger than that. There are some great coaches out there. There are some bad ones out there. As soon as you believe you no longer hold the keys to your car someone else will be driving it. Of course you can absolve yourself of the responsibility and the course of your life then. And you can spend your time explaining away your failure and misery. Or you can refuse to hand over the keys and drive the hell out of your own car and own every single second of it. 

Coach_May posted:

It is very easy to sit back and take shots at people. Coaches are no different. Do I have to say it again? Ok I will go ahead and say it. There are bad coaches. There are average coaches. There are good coaches. But before people simply take shots I wish they could consider some things. How many of those people taking shots have ever gone to a game their son was not playing in? How invested will they be in this program once their kid is no longer in it? When was the last time they missed time with their family to spend it with someone else's kid? When was the last time they spent 3 hours in a day working with other people's kids? Have they ever had to make out a line up? Have they ever had to cut a player? Have they ever been responsible for anything other than just making sure their kid was there? 

I know I spend way more time with other peoples kids than I do with my own family. I have no idea how it will break down this year but I doubt I make more than a couple bucks an hour. It's very easy to bash and trash. What have these bashers and trashers done? Graced us with letting us coach their stud? Before he was here we never saw you. After he leaves we will never see you again. But while you are here your going to make sure we do things the way you think they should be done. Ok.

I think some people would benefit from having to invest a little more in the process than just dropping the kid off at school and picking him up after practice. Maybe look a little deeper and put yourself in someone else's shoes? I say all of this and have ZERO complaints with my parents. They are awesome. They support our program and they have raised some great young men. I challenge anyone who has never coached to coach. I challenge those who find themselves constantly having issues with coaches to coach. Maybe that would help you out. 

I wish everyone of my players could start. I wish everyone of my players would have a great game. I wish everyone of my players was happy and right where they wanted to be 100 percent of the time. But guess what life isn't like that. Maybe learning to deal with a bad coach is more of a blessing than having a good coach? Maybe we get exactly what were supposed to get to make us who we need to be? Maybe if we stop allowing ourselves to be victims we can find a way to be champions? But that dang Coach he just screws it all up. It's ok Coach. In a few years it will be the boss. It will be the Cop. It will be the wife. You will be replaced by something else. Victims are like that. They have no shortage of excuses to find. Don't get mad at them. That's just what they do. 

 

Sounds like you are an excellent and dedicated coach. I applaud your efforts and think that is awesome!  I have experienced many coaches we love and respect and we still remain in contact with multiple previous coaches.  

I have coached in the past and if the opportunity afforded itself when I retire I would love to go back to it.  Baseball has been an amazing bonding experience for my son and I.  I spend a lot of time helping him, which I love.  Sometimes he just asked me to throw him BP and others asking me to video his swing or pitching mechanics and help him figure out what he changed.  I spend a lot of time doing research and send a lot of video to former coaches and coaching friends to gain feedback. I know how much time it takes and totally respect it.

All that being said, going back to the premise of this post.  I still believe that the advent of the "keyboard" and extra eyes on the process is a net positive.  Yes, good coaches take some additional nonsense criticism...but so do all of the rest of us.

If the good scrutiny leads to less really bad coaches...I think that is win for all.  

I think worth mentioning that I have not read a single comment or post for someone advocating a parent should complain to a coach or AD about playing time. I mention this due to the abundance of comments indicating it is bad...pretty much everyone agrees. 

On the tax payer front.........I'm guessing a parent never went to the math teacher to attempt changing the math assignments/problems when jr had problems with Algebra. The good "tax payer" contingency would be doing more of a service to take the attitude of " tax payer" and running the show to the city council/community level by focusing on real things that will improve quality of life for all.  We all love baseball, but it's such a small window in time. JMO

Actually not true, in fact this happens ALL THE TIME!.  Especially for Math and especially recently.  Many school districts had made switches to different math teaching styles (singapore math, etc.) this resulted in gaps in math fundamentals.  You can find examples of school districts all around the country of parents approaching and working with school boards, administration and math departments to address issues. 

RJM posted:

2020dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

I will readily agree there is a ton of blame to go around to MANY stakeholders.  Also, in my experience the best principals are the ones who have coached before.  They get it because they went through it.

In terms of the scrutinizing aspect I'm wrapping up my 6th year as AD at my school.  I have yet to have a parent come up and say "coach so and so is doing a really good job.  I'm glad they are our coach".  But I have definitely heard "coach so and so is terrible.  You need to fire him".  I always reply with "and replace them with who? Nobody is lining up to take the job because they don't want to hear it from you".  Luckily I have the principal I do because I tell parents the truth.  I do it as nicely and professionally I can but it will always be the truth.  I won't be surprised if I get fired with a new principal.

Lol.  Well I hope you don't.  But agree about principals who have coached.  I only had one of those but yes he was a lot more rational.  These days you don't find many principals who were coaches.  

In middle school there was a new female principal who never played sports. By spring of her first year she decided to handle parental complaints with everyone makes the team with equal playing time. 26 baseball players shared 7 innings.

The next year my son and all the other good baseball players signed up for lacrosse. Due to the physicality of lacrosse kids wouldn’t sign up just to be on the team. They weren’t quitting baseball. They were on travel teams. But they weren’t going to waste their time with 26 players in practice and games. 

The high school varsity baseball coach freaked out. He was afraid these kids would like lacrosse and not play baseball in high school. He had to use the might of the board to rescind the principal’s rule. 

And that right there is what I am talking about.  In reality they simply despise sports and in some cases despise any kind of exceptionalism unless it is in one of their pet areas like music or art.  Imagine telling the play director the lead role has to be shared by everyone.  Or the band director that everyone must rotate instruments during a concert.  OMG they would flip out.  They would hyperventilate in an overly dramatic meltdown.  As athletic people we are second class citizens now.  Hmmmm.  been a while since I started a thread...  gonna give that some thought.  Would be interesting to see how many out there are feeling the same, like they are looked down upon  condescendingly.

P.S.  I too was in high school in the 70's.  And yes I agree there were coaches then who didn't know what they were doing.  But the difference as I see it is the information that is now available.  Since we are both old guys think about it, like I said earlier pitchers were 'sneaky fast'.  How many times did you hear that?  In the 70's we had no idea why that guy in the bigs who threw 89 was more effective than the guy throwing 94.  Especially when we saw no discernible difference in movement.  Maybe it looked like a 'rising fastball'.  Now we know its spin rate.  There are no mysteries there anymore.  The smart colleges have already begun recruiting spin rate.  Soon when the neanderthals catch up it will be commonplace.  There is simply no excuse now a days to not be informed.  The guys of the 70's just had to rely on the guys who came before them.  Had to trust they were right.  Remember it was the 70's before we even had hitting coaches in MLB.  Nobody was analyzing film.  High speed film wasn't what it is today.  A cell phone video is infinitely more revealing than the best equipment back then.  In the beginning of the 70's we didn't even have desktop computers.  And by the end of the 70's they were still not commonplace at all.  Cell phones?  Forget about it.  Internet?  Years away.  Coaches didn't have today's advantages.  So I just judge current bad coaches a little more harshly cause there is no excuse.  

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

On the tax payer front.........I'm guessing a parent never went to the math teacher to attempt changing the math assignments/problems when jr had problems with Algebra. The good "tax payer" contingency would be doing more of a service to take the attitude of " tax payer" and running the show to the city council/community level by focusing on real things that will improve quality of life for all.  We all love baseball, but it's such a small window in time. JMO

Actually not true, in fact this happens ALL THE TIME!.  Especially for Math and especially recently.  Many school districts had made switches to different math teaching styles (singapore math, etc.) this resulted in gaps in math fundamentals.  You can find examples of school districts all around the country of parents approaching and working with school boards, administration and math departments to address issues. 

 

Yeah and the geniuses in leadership positions still have yet to figure out that the last time we were #1 in education worldwide was 1992.  Back when the student came in, sat in their assigned seat, shut up and took notes while we lectured.  No learning style crap and no coddling.  May we have lost a few along the way that could have been helped by all these modern BS methods?  Perhaps.  I would even be willing to stipulate that we probably did.  But do you want what is good for the 95% or the 5%?  And no we can not serve them all equally.  Sorry, off topic again.  Hot button issue for me.  

2020dad posted:

RJM posted:

2020dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

I will readily agree there is a ton of blame to go around to MANY stakeholders.  Also, in my experience the best principals are the ones who have coached before.  They get it because they went through it.

In terms of the scrutinizing aspect I'm wrapping up my 6th year as AD at my school.  I have yet to have a parent come up and say "coach so and so is doing a really good job.  I'm glad they are our coach".  But I have definitely heard "coach so and so is terrible.  You need to fire him".  I always reply with "and replace them with who? Nobody is lining up to take the job because they don't want to hear it from you".  Luckily I have the principal I do because I tell parents the truth.  I do it as nicely and professionally I can but it will always be the truth.  I won't be surprised if I get fired with a new principal.

Lol.  Well I hope you don't.  But agree about principals who have coached.  I only had one of those but yes he was a lot more rational.  These days you don't find many principals who were coaches.  

In middle school there was a new female principal who never played sports. By spring of her first year she decided to handle parental complaints with everyone makes the team with equal playing time. 26 baseball players shared 7 innings.

The next year my son and all the other good baseball players signed up for lacrosse. Due to the physicality of lacrosse kids wouldn’t sign up just to be on the team. They weren’t quitting baseball. They were on travel teams. But they weren’t going to waste their time with 26 players in practice and games. 

The high school varsity baseball coach freaked out. He was afraid these kids would like lacrosse and not play baseball in high school. He had to use the might of the board to rescind the principal’s rule. 

And that right there is what I am talking about.  In reality they simply despise sports and in some cases despise any kind of exceptionalism unless it is in one of their pet areas like music or art.  Imagine telling the play director the lead role has to be shared by everyone.  Or the band director that everyone must rotate instruments during a concert.  OMG they would flip out.  They would hyperventilate in an overly dramatic meltdown.  As athletic people we are second class citizens now.  Hmmmm.  been a while since I started a thread...  gonna give that some thought.  Would be interesting to see how many out there are feeling the same, like they are looked down upon  condescendingly.

So clearly you don't spend a lot of time with arts people. If you did, you'd hear the theatre director complain about being forced to do huge production shows so everyone can have a role. You'd hear parents at rehearsals complain that their kid would make a much better (whatever the lead is) than the kid who has the part, etc., etc., and so on. And you'd hear staff angry because the baseball field just got new lights while the curtains over the stage are falling apart.

Whatever group you're in, the tendency is to think that your group is treated like second class citizens and other people are getting something you're not. That's not just in high school, think about the fights between rural areas who think people in town get services they don't, or people in town who are mad that farmers get subsidies they don't.

Seems to me we'd all be better off if we just worry about finding the best experience possible for our own child, and not worry about what other kids, other teams and other activities are getting or what they are thinking.

Coach_May posted:

It is very easy to sit back and take shots at people. Coaches are no different. Do I have to say it again? Ok I will go ahead and say it. There are bad coaches. There are average coaches. There are good coaches. But before people simply take shots I wish they could consider some things. How many of those people taking shots have ever gone to a game their son was not playing in? How invested will they be in this program once their kid is no longer in it? When was the last time they missed time with their family to spend it with someone else's kid? When was the last time they spent 3 hours in a day working with other people's kids? Have they ever had to make out a line up? Have they ever had to cut a player? Have they ever been responsible for anything other than just making sure their kid was there? 

I know I spend way more time with other peoples kids than I do with my own family. I have no idea how it will break down this year but I doubt I make more than a couple bucks an hour. It's very easy to bash and trash. What have these bashers and trashers done? Graced us with letting us coach their stud? Before he was here we never saw you. After he leaves we will never see you again. But while you are here your going to make sure we do things the way you think they should be done. Ok.

I think some people would benefit from having to invest a little more in the process than just dropping the kid off at school and picking him up after practice. Maybe look a little deeper and put yourself in someone else's shoes? I say all of this and have ZERO complaints with my parents. They are awesome. They support our program and they have raised some great young men. I challenge anyone who has never coached to coach. I challenge those who find themselves constantly having issues with coaches to coach. Maybe that would help you out. 

I wish everyone of my players could start. I wish everyone of my players would have a great game. I wish everyone of my players was happy and right where they wanted to be 100 percent of the time. But guess what life isn't like that. Maybe learning to deal with a bad coach is more of a blessing than having a good coach? Maybe we get exactly what were supposed to get to make us who we need to be? Maybe if we stop allowing ourselves to be victims we can find a way to be champions? But that dang Coach he just screws it all up. It's ok Coach. In a few years it will be the boss. It will be the Cop. It will be the wife. You will be replaced by something else. Victims are like that. They have no shortage of excuses to find. Don't get mad at them. That's just what they do. 

 

Before I Paste the following let me preface it.  My son has generally been one of the main players on any team he played on so we have NEVER complained about playing time.  He was a bench player on an AAU team that was really really good and it elevated his game just practicing with them and getting some minutes in games.  We were delighted with the coach and the experience.  He could not do three sports at a high level so AAU had to go but I still talk to that coach.  Great guy, great coach.  Love him and its the most my son has ever sat.  He doesn't play baseball for his high school but rather plays full time travel.  Not cause he is too good or cause I hate the coach.  I am not overly fond of the coach but even if we loved him it doesn't make sense to pay $300 to high school when we can play the same amount of games for the fee we already paid the travel organization.  Plus he has to lift right after school and HS baseball gets in the way, and football will probably pay the bills for college.  The high school football experience has been the most fun I have ever had as a sports parent.  He is on the best travel team he has ever been on for this summer.  So things are going great.  I don't post this to be bitter or confrontational.  Just to show vividly how there are two sides to the coin.  I have been a coach.  I have coached from 5th graders to Head varsity in basketball and many years of baseball as well from youth to asst. varsity.  And I did much of that before becoming a parent.  After having kids I got a new perspective.  I really admire the parents of the subs who come every game and support the team.  I can't imagine what that feels like.  Maybe in college it will be my turn.  Most coaches tend to have kids who play not sit.  And there is some favoritism in the good ole boy network for other coaches kids lets be honest.  So its sometimes hard for coaches to relate to the less fortunate parents.  So with that in mind and in the spirit of understanding and truly trying to see both sides I paste the following...

It is very easy to sit back and take shots at people. Parents are no different. Do I have to say it again? Ok I will go ahead and say it. There are bad parents. There are average parents. There are good parents. But before coaches simply take shots I wish they could consider some things. How many of those coaches taking shots have ever gone to a game their son was not playing in when maybe he should have been? How invested will they be in this player once he is no longer in their program? When was the last time they missed time seeing their kid play to spend it working to pay the bills? When was the last time they spent 3 hours in a day watching their kid sit both games of a double header? Have they ever had a kid not regularly in a line up? Have they ever had a kid cut? Have they ever been responsible for anything other than just making sure they win? 

I know I spend way more time with work than I do with my own family. I have no idea how it will break down this year but I know we will spend a small fortune on his sports. It's very easy to bash and trash. What have these bashers and trashers done? Graced us with their ego driven coaching greatness? Before our son was a prospect/player we never saw you. After he leaves we will never see you again. But while we are here you're going to make sure we do things the way you think they should be done. Ok.

I think some coaches would benefit from having to invest a little more in the process than just having fun running practice, making lineups and being a mini dictator. Maybe look a little deeper and put yourself in someone else's shoes? I say all of this and have minimal complaints with my kids coaches. They are ok. They do their job and we have a winning tradition. I challenge anyone who has never parented to parent. I challenge coaches who find themselves constantly having issues with parents to parent. Maybe that would help you out. 

I wish everyone of my kids coaches was great. I wish everyone of my kids coaches would have great knowledge. I wish everyone of my kids coaches was happy and right where they wanted to be 100 percent of the time. But guess what life isn't like that. Maybe learning to deal with a bad parent is more of a blessing than having a good parent? Maybe we get exactly what we're supposed to get to make us who we need to be? Maybe if we stop allowing ourselves to be victims we can find a way to be champions? But that dang parent he just screws it all up. It's ok. In a few years it will be the boss. It will be the Cop. It will be the wife. Parents will be replaced by something else. Victims are like that. They have no shortage of excuses to find. Don't get mad at them. That's just what they do.

Iowamom23 posted:

2020dad posted:

RJM posted:

2020dad posted:

coach2709 posted:

I will readily agree there is a ton of blame to go around to MANY stakeholders.  Also, in my experience the best principals are the ones who have coached before.  They get it because they went through it.

In terms of the scrutinizing aspect I'm wrapping up my 6th year as AD at my school.  I have yet to have a parent come up and say "coach so and so is doing a really good job.  I'm glad they are our coach".  But I have definitely heard "coach so and so is terrible.  You need to fire him".  I always reply with "and replace them with who? Nobody is lining up to take the job because they don't want to hear it from you".  Luckily I have the principal I do because I tell parents the truth.  I do it as nicely and professionally I can but it will always be the truth.  I won't be surprised if I get fired with a new principal.

Lol.  Well I hope you don't.  But agree about principals who have coached.  I only had one of those but yes he was a lot more rational.  These days you don't find many principals who were coaches.  

In middle school there was a new female principal who never played sports. By spring of her first year she decided to handle parental complaints with everyone makes the team with equal playing time. 26 baseball players shared 7 innings.

The next year my son and all the other good baseball players signed up for lacrosse. Due to the physicality of lacrosse kids wouldn’t sign up just to be on the team. They weren’t quitting baseball. They were on travel teams. But they weren’t going to waste their time with 26 players in practice and games. 

The high school varsity baseball coach freaked out. He was afraid these kids would like lacrosse and not play baseball in high school. He had to use the might of the board to rescind the principal’s rule. 

And that right there is what I am talking about.  In reality they simply despise sports and in some cases despise any kind of exceptionalism unless it is in one of their pet areas like music or art.  Imagine telling the play director the lead role has to be shared by everyone.  Or the band director that everyone must rotate instruments during a concert.  OMG they would flip out.  They would hyperventilate in an overly dramatic meltdown.  As athletic people we are second class citizens now.  Hmmmm.  been a while since I started a thread...  gonna give that some thought.  Would be interesting to see how many out there are feeling the same, like they are looked down upon  condescendingly.

So clearly you don't spend a lot of time with arts people. If you did, you'd hear the theatre director complain about being forced to do huge production shows so everyone can have a role. You'd hear parents at rehearsals complain that their kid would make a much better (whatever the lead is) than the kid who has the part, etc., etc., and so on. And you'd hear staff angry because the baseball field just got new lights while the curtains over the stage are falling apart.

Whatever group you're in, the tendency is to think that your group is treated like second class citizens and other people are getting something you're not. That's not just in high school, think about the fights between rural areas who think people in town get services they don't, or people in town who are mad that farmers get subsidies they don't.

Seems to me we'd all be better off if we just worry about finding the best experience possible for our own child, and not worry about what other kids, other teams and other activities are getting or what they are thinking.

Actually I guess it comes down to the interpretation of what 'a lot of time' means.  Having been in education many years and having two daughters go through drama program I think I have but perhaps you would think not.  At any rate suffice to say I am not unfamiliar.  And yes I hear them complain.  But I am more talking about what is trending.  Its very true that Athletics 40 years ago received way way more funding attention admiration etc.  Now not so much.  Keep your ear to the ground and you will find the pendulum is swinging.  And I think its great that my daughter went to a school which is very new and the auditorium is state of the art.  I don't want these kids to be second class citizens.  I personally am more of a sports guy but appreciate other things.  It doesn't always work that way for the arts people.  They walk around often with pride at knowing nothing about sports. "oh is that where the  ball goes through the thing and then you get points or something"  My own daughter acts like this sometimes and I remind her that I enjoy the theater.  I wouldn't go around saying "you now that monster of the opera house or something"  That smugness makes you less intelligent not more.  I am not a theatrical expert by any means but could at least accurately name many classic productions.  However we as athletic people are more and more looked at as backwards ingrates.  

Iowamom23 posted:

Seems to me we'd all be better off if we just worry about finding the best experience possible for our own child.....

I am very thankful that we live in a time where there are other options to choose besides High School Baseball.   Here in Wisconsin, High School Baseball is essentially a 5 week season because of weather related issues.

In response to other comments:  I have coached, both at the high school level & travel ball.  I've coached kids in multiple high schools across our region and talk to coaches, parents, players & former players on a regular basis and have a pretty good idea of what goes on.

I've seen coaches violate rules as they have their "winter workouts" be team practices and essentially extended tryout times.  I've seen coaches (at high school's other than my kid's) start players who are the sons of their biggest boosters and have losing season after losing season and seemingly not care.  I've heard coaches at parents meetings say that they like coaching because it "keeps them young" and then schedule 5 day road trips in preseason for their team where they play 1 game and the rest of the time it is rock climbing and go cart racing etc (all on the parents dime) when meanwhile back at home the program can't afford one decent batting tee.

I've seen kid's arms destroyed.  I've seen kid's mentality destroyed.  I've seen antiquated mechanics "taught".  I've seen weeks of practices go by where kids don't get ground balls hit to them.  I've seen dozens of games where kids don't get pregame BP.  I've seen coaches threaten kids with never playing Varsity if they don't play summer legion with the school.

I could go on & on.  I've been on the inside and seen so much.

I'm very, very glad there are other options.

Meant to add: and yes I've coached multiple times in recent years with teams that my Kid had no involvement in.

Coach_May posted:

It is very easy to sit back and take shots at people. Coaches are no different. Do I have to say it again? Ok I will go ahead and say it. There are bad coaches. There are average coaches. There are good coaches. But before people simply take shots I wish they could consider some things. How many of those people taking shots have ever gone to a game their son was not playing in? How invested will they be in this program once their kid is no longer in it? When was the last time they missed time with their family to spend it with someone else's kid? When was the last time they spent 3 hours in a day working with other people's kids? Have they ever had to make out a line up? Have they ever had to cut a player? Have they ever been responsible for anything other than just making sure their kid was there? 

I know I spend way more time with other peoples kids than I do with my own family. I have no idea how it will break down this year but I doubt I make more than a couple bucks an hour. It's very easy to bash and trash. What have these bashers and trashers done? Graced us with letting us coach their stud? Before he was here we never saw you. After he leaves we will never see you again. But while you are here your going to make sure we do things the way you think they should be done. Ok.

I think some people would benefit from having to invest a little more in the process than just dropping the kid off at school and picking him up after practice. Maybe look a little deeper and put yourself in someone else's shoes? I say all of this and have ZERO complaints with my parents. They are awesome. They support our program and they have raised some great young men. I challenge anyone who has never coached to coach. I challenge those who find themselves constantly having issues with coaches to coach. Maybe that would help you out. 

I wish everyone of my players could start. I wish everyone of my players would have a great game. I wish everyone of my players was happy and right where they wanted to be 100 percent of the time. But guess what life isn't like that. Maybe learning to deal with a bad coach is more of a blessing than having a good coach? Maybe we get exactly what were supposed to get to make us who we need to be? Maybe if we stop allowing ourselves to be victims we can find a way to be champions? But that dang Coach he just screws it all up. It's ok Coach. In a few years it will be the boss. It will be the Cop. It will be the wife. You will be replaced by something else. Victims are like that. They have no shortage of excuses to find. Don't get mad at them. That's just what they do. 

 

Before I Paste the following let me preface it.  My son has generally been one of the main players on any team he played on so we have NEVER complained about playing time.  He was a bench player on an AAU team that was really really good and it elevated his game just practicing with them and getting some minutes in games.  We were delighted with the coach and the experience.  He could not do three sports at a high level so AAU had to go but I still talk to that coach.  Great guy, great coach.  Love him and its the most my son has ever sat.  He doesn't play baseball for his high school but rather plays full time travel.  Not cause he is too good or cause I hate the coach.  I am not overly fond of the coach but even if we loved him it doesn't make sense to pay $300 to high school when we can play the same amount of games for the fee we already paid the travel organization.  Plus he has to lift right after school and HS baseball gets in the way, and football will probably pay the bills for college.  The high school football experience has been the most fun I have ever had as a sports parent.  He is on the best travel team he has ever been on for this summer.  So things are going great.  I don't post this to be bitter or confrontational.  Just to show vividly how there are two sides to the coin.  I have been a coach.  I have coached from 5th graders to Head varsity in basketball and many years of baseball as well from youth to asst. varsity.  And I did much of that before becoming a parent.  After having kids I got a new perspective.  I really admire the parents of the subs who come every game and support the team.  I can't imagine what that feels like.  Maybe in college it will be my turn.  Most coaches tend to have kids who play not sit.  And there is some favoritism in the good ole boy network for other coaches kids lets be honest.  So its sometimes hard for coaches to relate to the less fortunate parents.  So with that in mind and in the spirit of understanding and truly trying to see both sides I paste the following...

It is very easy to sit back and take shots at people. Parents are no different. Do I have to say it again? Ok I will go ahead and say it. There are bad parents. There are average parents. There are good parents. But before coaches simply take shots I wish they could consider some things. How many of those coaches taking shots have ever gone to a game their son was not playing in when maybe he should have been? How invested will they be in this player once he is no longer in their program? When was the last time they missed time seeing their kid play to spend it working to pay the bills? When was the last time they spent 3 hours in a day watching their kid sit both games of a double header? Have they ever had a kid not regularly in a line up? Have they ever had a kid cut? Have they ever been responsible for anything other than just making sure they win? 

I know I spend way more time with work than I do with my own family. I have no idea how it will break down this year but I know we will spend a small fortune on his sports. It's very easy to bash and trash. What have these bashers and trashers done? Graced us with their ego driven coaching greatness? Before our son was a prospect/player we never saw you. After he leaves we will never see you again. But while we are here you're going to make sure we do things the way you think they should be done. Ok.

I think some coaches would benefit from having to invest a little more in the process than just having fun running practice, making lineups and being a mini dictator. Maybe look a little deeper and put yourself in someone else's shoes? I say all of this and have minimal complaints with my kids coaches. They are ok. They do their job and we have a winning tradition. I challenge anyone who has never parented to parent. I challenge coaches who find themselves constantly having issues with parents to parent. Maybe that would help you out. 

I wish everyone of my kids coaches was great. I wish everyone of my kids coaches would have great knowledge. I wish everyone of my kids coaches was happy and right where they wanted to be 100 percent of the time. But guess what life isn't like that. Maybe learning to deal with a bad parent is more of a blessing than having a good parent? Maybe we get exactly what we're supposed to get to make us who we need to be? Maybe if we stop allowing ourselves to be victims we can find a way to be champions? But that dang parent he just screws it all up. It's ok. In a few years it will be the boss. It will be the Cop. It will be the wife. Parents will be replaced by something else. Victims are like that. They have no shortage of excuses to find. Don't get mad at them. That's just what they do.

I think that would fall under the "Some coaches are not good coaches." Some coaches have never been parents. Some have never had kids who played. Some lack perspective. Some are just not good coaches. 

Some coaches have had kids who played. Some have handled it very well. Some are parents and understand exactly what parents are going through. Some are just good coaches.

We find all types of people in every walk of life. Does it work both ways? Yep I think we all know that. 

Speaking about extra curricular axtivities that aren't sports and how they are perceived ...

Our school district has a mandatory two year musical instrument requirement. My kids were in band and/or orchestra in from 4th grade through middle school. My daughter continued into high school when she decided she had to cut back activities. 

Both kids said once past the mandatory stage the competition for first instrument in a section was fierce. They thought it was far more intense than any sports tryout. Parents of top musicians hung out at practice until the conductor kicked them out for speaking out. Parents acted like agents. 

The violin group was all Asian kids. It was the most intense competition in the orchestra. My kids said when first violin was announced every kid who didn't get it burst out crying. 

In 4th grade my son played the tortured moose. He was under the impression it was a trumpet. I made him practice in the basement with the door closed. Fortunately, he discovered in 5th grade he could play the sax and was much better at it.

Not that I had any influence. But I played CD’s and showed him pictures of cool dudes playing the sax. There are some excellent trumpet players. But no one looks cool playing the trumpet.

RJM posted:

Speaking about extra curricular axtivities that aren't sports and how they are perceived ...

Our school district has a mandatory two year musical instrument requirement. My kids were in band and/or orchestra in from 4th grade through middle school. My daughter continued into high school when she decided she had to cut back activities. 

Both kids said once past the mandatory stage the competition for first instrument in a section was fierce. They thought it was far more intense than any sports tryout. Parents of top musicians hung out at practice until the conductor kicked them out for speaking out. Parents acted like agents. 

The violin group was all Asian kids. It was the most intense competition in the orchestra. My kids said when first violin was announced every kid who didn't get it burst out crying. 

In 4th grade my son played the tortured moose. He was under the impression it was a trumpet. I made him practice in the basement with the door closed. Fortunately, he discovered in 5th grade he could play the sax and was much better at it.

Not that I had any influence. But I played CD’s and showed him pictures of cool dudes playing the sax. There are some excellent trumpet players. But no one looks cool playing the trumpet.

Yeah.  Those crazy over the top music parents.  

RJM posted:

But no one looks cool playing the trumpet.

The great Satchmo??

I'll add to the list, last night I saw a freshman pitcher throw 95 pitches.  This is a kid who played Basketball all winter and didn't throw much to prepare for the season until about 4 weeks ago.  Yes, the kid should have done more arm care prior to the season.  He wasn't expecting to pitch this year.  The Coach knows that the kid just began throwing again 4 weeks ago, and still had him throw 95 pitches last night.

Now, if you are the Kid's Dad, do you just repeat the "deal with adversity, kid" mantra?  A lot of these coaches out there are ending kid's careers before they even start.

Saw another kid, a Sophomore, who threw 90 pitches on Tuesday night get put at Shortstop on Wednesday.

Like I said, I could go on & on

3and2Fastball posted:

I'll add to the list, last night I saw a freshman pitcher throw 95 pitches.  This is a kid who played Basketball all winter and didn't throw much to prepare for the season until about 4 weeks ago.  Yes, the kid should have done more arm care prior to the season.  He wasn't expecting to pitch this year.  The Coach knows that the kid just began throwing again 4 weeks ago, and still had him throw 95 pitches last night.

Now, if you are the Kid's Dad, do you just repeat the "deal with adversity, kid" mantra?  A lot of these coaches out there are ending kid's careers before they even start.

Saw another kid, a Sophomore, who threw 90 pitches on Tuesday night get put at Shortstop on Wednesday.

Like I said, I could go on & on

I'll pile on.  I saw a kid play 6 innings at catcher and come in to pitch the 7th in sub 50 deg. weather.  And this was a from a guy I think is a pretty good coach.  

ironhorse posted:

RJM posted:

But no one looks cool playing the trumpet.

The great Satchmo??

Satchmo would look cool playing the kazoo LOL.

He sounded cool. He was cool. Looking cool is another discussion.