Are keyboards creating high-school coach killers?

I don’t know anything about these coaches nor the coach on the previous thread. 

IMHO and based on experience with two college players...there’s multiple sides to many of these stories.

1) Parents are way too involved and wear their children like medallions. My Dad and Mom were too busy working at the Ford plant and trying to put food on the table but that was 35 years ago.  We like to post “our” accomplishments on this site and Facebook and Instagram...I think my guys would be mortified but that hasn’t stopped me.

2) We look at the winning coaches getting fired (as in these two recent threads) and we question the parents. I always question the parents, myself included, winning or losing.  We (me) are too invested in our kids’ lives.

3) And I see winning coaches and losing coaches that can be good or bad or sometimes both...they’re human. As RJM stated on a previous thread, some are screamers. My youngest college guy has one now. That isn’t coaching whether he wins or loses. That’s just screaming.  And he’s losing but that’s for the AD to noodle.

4) It was noted on the other thread that starters parents don’t complain. No kidding. They don’t want junior to lose his spot.  They (we) aren’t more virtuous or truly supporting the coach.  We don’t want our boat rocked.  

5) Really good coaches understand the enormous impact that they can have on a young person’s life and they treat that with incredible respect.  It isn’t about winning in this context IMO.  It’s about positively impacting someone’s life.  I want to (and I hope I have the clarity to) always support this type of coach.

Times are changing.  There are a lot of really mediocre high school coaches & programs out there, and kids nowadays have options that they didn't have even 10-15 years ago in most parts of the country.

Some of the coaches are unfairly fired, yes, but sometimes change is for the best.  And yes, parents can get way too involved.

Increasingly, players in some parts of the country (especially in the frozen tundra of Wisconsin, Minnesota, & Illinois) are choosing to not play for their high schools and instead only doing training & travel ball & playing in indoor spring leagues.  This is forcing high school coaches to put together a higher quality program or step aside.

I understand traditionalists will go on and on waxing nostalgic about the wonderful merits of high school Baseball.  But not all high school programs are a quality experience.  And as I said, times are changing.  When you look at a "season" here in the north being about 4 weeks due to weather related issues anyways, I can certainly understand the temptation to skip high school ball, especially if the program is mediocre.

Interesting topic.  Yes, parents are a problem.  Yes, some coaches are terrible.  Yes, some good coaches get fired due to parents overstepping.  That sucks! 

But, in general scrutiny is good.  In business and in coaching.  We have a high school varsity coach who is not good.  He runs a poor program.  Very old school guy who does not really know anything about modern baseball.  Two years ago he seriously hurt a pitchers arm having him throw 250 pitches in 4 days before the pitch count rules came in. 

Other coaches in the program complain about him regularly.  But he is a teacher at the school and has been the coach for 25+ years.  He could use some scrutiny, but my kid is in the program so I would never get involved, but I hope others will.  

Branson Baseball posted:

 

4) It was noted on the other thread that starters parents don’t complain. No kidding. They don’t want junior to lose his spot.  They (we) aren’t more virtuous or truly supporting the coach.  We don’t want our boat rocked.   

Of course starters parents complain — often about the parents of the second team or JV team players and how resentful they are of your kids success, the comments they make during games, etc.

As much as we all talk about team first, it's a very hard philosophy to actually act on and most of us don't do it very well, no matter where our kid falls in the team.

RJM posted:

“Would people say the things that people say to their face versus a keyboard? I don’t think the outcome would be the same,”

This is spot on. Although there are outliers who would speak in the same manner to someone's face, by and large this applies not only to this situation but across the board these days. I work in technology myself and am not really a "get off my lawn!" guy when it comes to that, but the anonymity and remoteness of the Internet and social media, in a lot of ways, has enabled abusive behavior of folks people barely–or don't at all–know that would likely otherwise not happen. This forum is really good about this but I daresay I see things even here that would fall into this category from time to time.

Branson Baseball posted:

 

4) It was noted on the other thread that starters parents don’t complain. No kidding. They don’t want junior to lose his spot.  They (we) aren’t more virtuous or truly supporting the coach.  We don’t want our boat rocked.   

On this comment, I would say that I agree more with Iowamom. My kid is a starter and he works very hard to stay that way. In our situation, the parents of starters are typically the ones who also do all the work. Maybe that's out of obligation or enthusiasm but mostly I think not. There are just some people who help more in general than others. Our program gets $1500/yr from the school district, which probably doesn't even cover baseballs, so we (the booster club & coaches) are left to raise all the funds and do all the maintenance for our facilities and program. It ends up being the old 80/20 rule where 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people. I'd like to think that the folks with kids who do not have regular starters would step up if that changed but I know that's not how it would be after watching this for the last three years. There are exceptions on both sides of course but this is our particular situation and I would venture to guess that it is not too uncommon. Bottom line is that I have no fear at all about complaining with my son being a starter but I don't typically feel the need because I see the work that goes into our program and it doesn't involve just showing up to practice and play baseball (or find a spot in the stands to sit and watch your kid play–or not).

A few years ago, we had an email circulate about our then Head coach.  I can say reading the complaint, everyone was right and everyone was wrong.  Meaning, did the coach do some questionable things?  Yep.  Should their kid have played more?  Probably.  Did their kid play? Yep.  Was it just about the right amount?  Probably.  These situations are rarely "black and white."  There is usually a lot of grey area.  

Coaches are not above criticism, but playing time would not be my main focus as a parent. I am hyper aware, as a coach(and Dad) myself, how impossible it is for a parent to accurately judge their own child's talent.

As one VERY experienced coach in my district tells his parents at the start of every year, " My door is always open if you want to talk about your son's schooling, or other problems he is having. Just don't talk to me about hockey." 

He is a great guy, and most players and parents respect him, but  there are occasional malcontents. They usually end up gone, one way or another, no matter how talented they are.

A fairly well-known coach told me (actually spoke to an audience of parents of younger - not high school- kids). He said something along these lines: "Moms, you know I love you, love your passion and I know how well you have raised your boys, but please do not talk to me about baseball and your son's abilities. Do not take this the wrong way, but in my experience there is a large discrepancy in the way moms are able to assess their boy's talents and the way the father's do. The dads are much more realistic about their son's abilities. I can talk to the dads and they mostly get it (though don't always like to hear it), but the moms not so much. They take it very personal as the boy is their little baby and their pride and joy...."

I've actually found the Dad's to be just as delusional, myself. And they are usually the ones who have never played. My wife is funny. Shows up about twice a year, cheers in the wrong places, then goes home. Not a lot of angst, there.

They are called Internet muscles.  People can hide behind a screen name and say things they would not say to someone's face.  We see it here on these forums.  Please don't say things electronically you would not have the courage (or decency) to say to someone's face.  The Golden Rule is a good one to live by. 

57Special, that's typically been my experience as well (moms having a supportive role), but then the coach speaking had a far different perspective than most of us. He ran a nationally known baseball organization that put hundreds, maybe thousands of kids into colleges and pro ranks. Year in and year out, many parents (moms and dads) had to be told that their son was not good enough to be on the elite travel team, was not good enough to start, did not have the hitting skills to be a 3-hole hitter... etc.  Just thought his remark was interesting. Certainly does not speak to all baseball moms at all.

I'm quite shocked at how parents have handled some of my decisions that we're based on the health and safety of my players, and academic importance.  One player complained of having the flu while we were on the bus. I told him I will not put him on the lineup sheet for his own health.  I ran into his mom and we talked about that.  He had told her he played 2 innings but I told her the truth.  She went quiet, exited the conversation and ended up making an excuse to sit on the other side of the hall.  

Last week 2 players missed a game due to having to take the SATs.  Our bus was scheduled to leave in the middle of it.  One of them, his mom was furious because we didn't wait for her son.  I called her to apologize and in the middle of explaining that I felt the SATs were more important than baseball, she snapped and hung up on me.  

Now I have more appreciation for two fathers who have kept their sons out of baseball this year due to academic and behavioral reasons.  They will be welcomed back whenever they get clearance from their parents.  

57special posted:

Coaches are not above criticism, but playing time would not be my main focus as a parent. I am hyper aware, as a coach(and Dad) myself, how impossible it is for a parent to accurately judge their own child's talent.

As one VERY experienced coach in my district tells his parents at the start of every year, " My door is always open if you want to talk about your son's schooling, or other problems he is having. Just don't talk to me about hockey." 

He is a great guy, and most players and parents respect him, but  there are occasional malcontents. They usually end up gone, one way or another, no matter how talented they are.

The use of the internet has had many negative effects as is pointed out here, but positive as well.  When used by a parent to push a personal agenda (e.g. this coach is screwing my kid) that is bad, but the use of social media and town message boards can be a driver to address actual coaching issues.  Issues that were / are harder to deal with unless you have a easy access to reach many people.  Prior to tools like these a parent or group of parents could maybe speak to an athletic director about a problem coach but it was quite difficult to illustrate the issue is felt by many or widespread. Or can be more easily dismissed.  

With town Facebook pages and message boards school management can see first hand many people discussing in a free dialog and gain a broader understanding.  Easy to get information communicated and it is up to athletic directors and schools to weed out the disgruntled parents with personal agendas from actual constructive criticism.  

Many coaches are great, many coaches are fine, some are bad.  If these tools help weed those out...all the better.  

Yes coaches should be scrutinized but that's not a parents job and never will be.  Yes you have your opinion and you have your background in baseball.  Could be you are very knowledgeable or could be you're clueless - doesn't matter because it's very difficult to be objective when you have a kid on the team.  For every objective parent out there who can correctly assess how a coach is doing there's MANY who cannot.  Plus, I don't work for you - you don't hire me or fire me (well you shouldn't). I work for the principal and the school system and as long as they are happy then the coach should stay.  If they are weak and give in to parents then you are actually doing the coach a favor because who wants to stay in that situation?

Don't get me wrong - parents are vital to a successful program but they have their role.  That role just doesn't happen to involve evaluating coaches to retain or remove from a job. 

I am not sure I could disagree with you more.  The parents are really the only ones who care enough to provide feedback and have a voice that can be heard.  Sure the students can have a voice, but the school has the right to discipline and ignore them.

Parents are the only ones who are actually watching the games. They care the most.  Who would provide constructive feedback other than parents?   The principal has all of the education and all sports programs to manage, too much to be actively involved.  Parents are the ones who are there. The only people actually available to view the product and provide informed opinion (and many parents uninformed opinions).  It is the job of the school and principal to weed out the uniformed opinion, take in all information and make decisions.  

Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  Literally everything a school needs to actually be a school.  Students and money.

When my kids were playing sports I focused on them working very hard to become as good as they could be. I wanted them to put all their efforts into learning how to be as good as they could be. I wanted them to learn team work, a great work ethic, the value of playing sports, etc. I understood there were things that would be outside of their control. I never wasted any time on those things. I understood there would be times that they might have coaches who were not the best. No big deal that was outside of our control. I figured if they were good enough it wouldn't matter anyway. I figured if I assisted them and supported them and held them accountable that was all I needed to worry about. 

Along the way my son's had some great coaches, good coaches, average coaches and bad coaches. No big deal not under my control. No big deal all part of the process. No big deal it's all part of the process. You see the parents that worried about the things outside of their control lost time taking care of the things they could control. And the players took on the attitude of the parents. The ones that had parents who used the coaches as an excuse had kids that used the coaches as an excuse. The ones that just focused on what they could control had parents that encouraged that as well.

Parents who see the athletic experience as ALL about their kid can't understand why everyone else doesn't either. Players who have been taught its all about them can't understand or grasp the team concept of sports. Its all about them. As long as their kid is playing and doing what they want him to do everything is great. As soon as that's not the case everything is wrong. But that's not the worst part. This attitude moves on to life. So don't be surprised to find that attitude permeating their adult life when the games are over. So don't complain about that selfish adult who's life is all about them down the road. You built it , your going to have to live with it. 

When they get that job and constantly complain about the boss it's ok they got it honest. When they constantly complain about their wife it's ok they got it honest. When they constantly complain about being a victim in life it's ok they got it honest. When nothing seems to be within their control but controlled by unfair outside forces it's ok they got it honest. When it's always about them it's ok they got it honest. When you have given them the crutches don't get upset when they constantly need them. It's ok they got it honest. 

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

I am not sure I could disagree with you more.  The parents are really the only ones who care enough to provide feedback and have a voice that can be heard.  Sure the students can have a voice, but the school has the right to discipline and ignore them.

Parents are the only ones who are actually watching the games. They care the most.  Who would provide constructive feedback other than parents?   The principal has all of the education and all sports programs to manage, too much to be actively involved.  Parents are the ones who are there. The only people actually available to view the product and provide informed opinion (and many parents uninformed opinions).  It is the job of the school and principal to weed out the uniformed opinion, take in all information and make decisions.  

Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  Literally everything a school needs to actually be a school.  Students and money.

 

Well you are 100% wrong.  When you have parents who do not care about the program and just care about their kid getting what they want then you are not objective and should not have a say.  In terms of protecting from abuse that is a different story.  

No I do not work for you and I never will no matter how much taxes you pay.  The person who has no kids in the school system pays taxes - do they have a say?  I pay taxes so does that mean I'm self-employed?  I'm basically paying my own salary when I pay taxes.  That is such a weak argument.  Parents should be involved as I stated before but absolutely should they NOT make the calls.

coach2709 posted:

No! Don't Call Bunt! posted:

I am not sure I could disagree with you more.  The parents are really the only ones who care enough to provide feedback and have a voice that can be heard.  Sure the students can have a voice, but the school has the right to discipline and ignore them.

Parents are the only ones who are actually watching the games. They care the most.  Who would provide constructive feedback other than parents?   The principal has all of the education and all sports programs to manage, too much to be actively involved.  Parents are the ones who are there. The only people actually available to view the product and provide informed opinion (and many parents uninformed opinions).  It is the job of the school and principal to weed out the uniformed opinion, take in all information and make decisions.  

Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. 

Also, this idea that school staff doesn't work for the parents.  They do, Parents provide tax dollars to support the school and provide the children.  Literally everything a school needs to actually be a school.  Students and money.

 

Well you are 100% wrong.  When you have parents who do not care about the program and just care about their kid getting what they want then you are not objective and should not have a say.  In terms of protecting from abuse that is a different story.  

No I do not work for you and I never will no matter how much taxes you pay.  The person who has no kids in the school system pays taxes - do they have a say?  I pay taxes so does that mean I'm self-employed?  I'm basically paying my own salary when I pay taxes.  That is such a weak argument.  Parents should be involved as I stated before but absolutely should they NOT make the calls.

"Now, I a not suggesting this should be about game strategy or who should play.  But, feedback on being abusive, overthrowing kids, not building an actual program, etc. "

I agree,  it should not be about parents advancing their kids.  It is not about "having a say"  it is not a vote. It is about who are the concerned parties.  The school is hiring someone with parents money to coach the parents children.  They have the greatest vested interest.  If that coach is doing a poor job, the parents are the people most likely to notice.  The person who does not have kids in the school does not know or care. The parents have a right to voice concerns to management and they can ignore or not.  

And, it is not just tax dollars. I know at our school tax dollars don't cut it. We pay a large booster fee, we run events to raise money, build better facilities.  These things last way past my child being there.  We don't and should not make the calls, but we 100% have a voice.  Hell, the coach holds a meeting before the season starts and asks us to contribute...that comes at a price...

I'm an athletic director and I hear that voice the parents have and 99% of the time it's a waste of time.