Bat rolling Good or Bad???

10+ posts
 
January 23, 2008 8:00 AM

I have just started hearing more and more about this.
Is this a form a cheating? You are already using what I had one scout call a cheat stick. (Metal Bat)
 
Please check out my web site at www.talasmahon.com Thank you
Last edited May 13, 2008 8:10 PM
 
 
500+ posts
 
January 23, 2008 10:58 AM

Bat rolling is a process primarily used on composite bats. Composite bats get "hotter" with use. They can be broken in naturally, ie, batting practice. Or they can be rolled (accelerated break-in, ABI) through industrial rollers.

This practice is very common, and controversial, in adult slowpitch, where composites rule.

On softball bats, at least, a moderate rolling more or less reproduces natural break-in; a heavy rolling significantly increases the size of the sweet spot and trampoline effect.

There are rumblings on mess. boards that "rolling" is becoming a factor in youth travel and all-stars.

This is the first I've heard of it about HS baseball.

In softball, as of recently, HS and College bats will have to be rolled before they are tested by the ASA.

I don't know if composite BESR bats have to be rolled prior to testing.

This would be a qood question for the tester, Jim Sherwood at Umass/Lowell.

If they adopt a policy of rolling composite BESR bats before testing, then we won't have to waste years debating the ethics of the process on this board.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
100+ posts
 
May 13, 2009 12:01 AM

It makes the bat against the rules to use,therefore unacceptable.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
100+ posts
 
May 17, 2009 12:41 PM

I copied this from RJM from another thread.


NFHS rules on bats are as follows:

"Rule 1 Section 3 Articles 2-5 provide bat specifications. In short, all bats must have the BESR certification, which regulates the size and weight as well as the exit speed ratio. In short, non-wood bats must be 36" or shorter, with a maximum 2 5/8" diameter, and cannot weigh more than 3 ounces less than the bat length (in inches), as certified by the manufacturer at shipping. Alterations are illegal, particularly those that cause the bat to no longer meet the designed size, weight, and BESR performance."

Rolling a bat can improve BESR (Bat Exit Speed Ratio) performance beyond standards, therefore, this process is illegal. Research on metal and composite bats at Kettering shows a dramatic increase in BESR when juiced."



Clear as mud.
 
Last edited by tfox May 17, 2009 12:43 PM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
Member
 
December 10, 2009 9:57 PM

Back in the day (50s 60s)it was a known practice that MLB players would "bone" their bats in order to make them harder and hit the ball farther.

Yes bat rolling makes the ball hit farther. It has been around in different ways forever. You can Accelerated break in if it is to ugly to say cheating...Is it cheating. It hitting 1000 baseballs cheating to break in your composite bat???
Could be...the composite is the monster here, remember that, whether it is rolled or hit 1000 times it gets hotter (with out a doubt). who cheated? The bat companies! BigDawg Bat Rolling
 
Last edited by dansmith January 25, 2010 11:46 PM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
100+ posts
 
December 11, 2009 2:30 PM

Besides time and perhaps uniformity, what's the difference between breaking a bat in through batting practice and having it rolled in a machine?

I just wish baseball would stop this $500 bat nonsense and return to wood, at all levels.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
BOF BOF is offline. Click for Member Snapshot.
5,000+ posts
 
December 11, 2009 3:40 PM

Hey Dan what is the name of your team?

If it is a baseball team think before you post it as there is a good chance all of your bats will be ruled ineligible by some of the better umpires here.

Agree with you VD!
 
Last edited by BOF December 11, 2009 3:44 PM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
1,000+ posts
 
December 12, 2009 7:06 AM

Composite bats, weren't they just banned from NCAA use for that reason?

Dan, you were being sarcastic .. right?? Would a Coach really suggest to his team that they "cheat?"

VD ---- Wood, would be good!! Not going to happen though, those dollars to College Coaches through Bat endorsements, and the investment to date by the manufacturers, way too large for them to discard now.
 
Last edited by Prime9 December 12, 2009 7:06 AM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 15, 2009 7:45 AM

Prime - Yep, they were. They don't meet the new BBCOR requirements. My son has a non-rolled Easton Speed and I have to say they do get better with BP. I can't wait to watch next years NCAA tourney without the comps and see just what a difference there really is. Also, have you noticed Williamsport has moved the fences back to 220 feet the past few years to encourage a more natural game(doubles, triples)? Well, the new comps are so good kids are flying it over that fence now.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
500+ posts
 
December 15, 2009 10:28 AM

quote:

I just wish baseball would stop this $500 bat nonsense and return to wood, at all levels.



Without a doubt!
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 15, 2009 8:58 PM

I hit better with pro level maple with a bell knob than I do a composite.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 17, 2009 11:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:
Besides time and perhaps uniformity, what's the difference between breaking a bat in through batting practice and having it rolled in a machine?


Besides time and an even breaking, well nothing. There would be no basic difference between bats full broken in by hitting, rolling, or banging it against a light pole. A broken in bat is a broken in bat, how it got there only matters as an ethical argument not a performance one. Though there is a durability difference.

quote:
I just wish baseball would stop this $500 bat nonsense and return to wood, at all levels.


 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 18, 2009 11:19 AM

quote:
Originally posted by tfox:

Rolling a bat can improve BESR (Bat Exit Speed Ratio) performance beyond standards, therefore, this process is illegal. Research on metal and composite bats at Kettering shows a dramatic increase in BESR when juiced."



Clear as mud.


Its not clear as mud. Hitting hundereds of balls also will improve BESR. Rolling just breaks in a bat faster and more evenly. Its not technically altering. You can also hit a bat against a tree, hit it wit a mallet, vice it, take it to the cages.... All different forms of the same thing. Should taking a bat to the cages be illegal?
 
Last edited by td25 December 18, 2009 11:27 AM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 18, 2009 11:23 AM

Amateur baseball should ban all composite bats and stick with metal. Rolling a metal bat does nothing, so this wouldn't even be an issue.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 18, 2009 11:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by lefty46:
I have just started hearing more and more about this.
Is this a form a cheating? You are already using what I had one scout call a cheat stick. (Metal Bat)


Can you please post pictures after you roll your metal bat? I want to see if it just dents or if it cracks completely....
 
Last edited by td25 December 18, 2009 11:26 AM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
1,000+ posts
 
December 18, 2009 12:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coach scotty:
Besides time and an even breaking, well nothing. There would be no basic difference between bats full broken in by hitting, rolling, or banging it against a light pole. A broken in bat is a broken in bat, how it got there only matters as an ethical argument not a performance one. Though there is a durability difference.


If bats are sold at one rating, yet become more lively when they are actually used, what's the point of the BESR? Why don't they just save everyone break-in time and roll the bats at the factory? If they rolled 'em, before they sold 'em, they bats would have an accurate BESR rating.

I don't see the ethical debate as rolling vs not rolling. Why not roll it? I see the debate as skirting the ratings by buying/selling bats which everyone knows will have a faster BESR after they're used for a while.

And, what happens when somebody gets injured by a ball hit with a 'rolled bat'? Does the BESR come into play?
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 21, 2009 11:43 AM

quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:
quote:
Originally posted by coach scotty:
Besides time and an even breaking, well nothing. There would be no basic difference between bats full broken in by hitting, rolling, or banging it against a light pole. A broken in bat is a broken in bat, how it got there only matters as an ethical argument not a performance one. Though there is a durability difference.


If bats are sold at one rating, yet become more lively when they are actually used, what's the point of the BESR? Why don't they just save everyone break-in time and roll the bats at the factory? If they rolled 'em, before they sold 'em, they bats would have an accurate BESR rating.

I don't see the ethical debate as rolling vs not rolling. Why not roll it? I see the debate as skirting the ratings by buying/selling bats which everyone knows will have a faster BESR after they're used for a while.

And, what happens when somebody gets injured by a ball hit with a 'rolled bat'? Does the BESR come into play?


Exactly.

Just ban all composite bats, and this wouldn't even be an issue.

ASA slowpitch softball has a 98mph exit speed limit, and that used to be tested when the bat was brand new out of the wrapper. Starting in 2009, ASA started rolling bats first, then testing the exit speed. Whereas before a legal bat may have been 98mph new and 101mph broken in, now a bat can't exceed 98mph when broken in.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 21, 2009 11:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:
If bats are sold at one rating, yet become more lively when they are actually used, what's the point of the BESR?


That's the reason composite bats were developed to make a bat that would be hotter than allowed.

quote:
Why don't they just save everyone break-in time and roll the bats at the factory? If they rolled 'em, before they sold 'em, they bats would have an accurate BESR rating.


That would defeat the purpose of the design. IMO (i do not work for a bat company) the whole reason for the composite design was to beat the rating.

quote:
I don't see the ethical debate as rolling vs not rolling. Why not roll it? I see the debate as skirting the ratings by buying/selling bats which everyone knows will have a faster BESR after they're used for a while.


Your right. That's what the bat was designed for and the only way to prevent it is to ban composites.

quote:
And, what happens when somebody gets injured by a ball hit with a 'rolled bat'? Does the BESR come into play?


I think the question should be what happens when a youth player gets hurt and a family sues. I would imagine many a third baseman in slow pitch has already had a broken bone from a "rolled" bat.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 23, 2009 11:10 AM

quote:

I think the question should be what happens when a youth player gets hurt and a family sues. I would imagine many a third baseman in slow pitch has already had a broken bone from a "rolled" bat.


Pitchers mostly. I've been hit a couple times. Although shaved composite bats and painted bats are an even bigger problem. That is truely altering.

You would be amazed to see the number of guys who are 5'8", 160 lbs that can hit a 12" softball 350'+
 
Last edited by td25 December 23, 2009 11:13 AM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 23, 2009 10:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by td25:
Although shaved composite bats and painted bats are an even bigger problem. That is truely altering.


Oh I agree. I was picked up to play a Friday night game with a team a few years back. When I showed up they had 5 or 6 of the old black and yellow power cells lined up on the fence. This model was well over ten years old and it wasn't that good a bat when it was new. So I asked what the heck they were going to do with them. Apparently they were repainted titanium bats and the power cell was supposedly the closest in size so that is what they painted them as. I said you have to be kidding everyone out here will know those aren't ligit. Well nothing was said that game but I heard the next game they were tossed. (I was playing in a different tourney sat.)

I have though, played on a team that had a couple of re-painted titanium that looked like that orange worth mayhem. And they looked really good. I doubt many could tell the difference. And yeah they had a 5'7" 120lb guy that could launch them with that bat.
 
Last edited by coach scotty December 23, 2009 10:43 PM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 28, 2009 11:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by coach scotty:
quote:
Originally posted by td25:
Although shaved composite bats and painted bats are an even bigger problem. That is truely altering.


Oh I agree. I was picked up to play a Friday night game with a team a few years back. When I showed up they had 5 or 6 of the old black and yellow power cells lined up on the fence. This model was well over ten years old and it wasn't that good a bat when it was new. So I asked what the heck they were going to do with them. Apparently they were repainted titanium bats and the power cell was supposedly the closest in size so that is what they painted them as. I said you have to be kidding everyone out here will know those aren't ligit. Well nothing was said that game but I heard the next game they were tossed. (I was playing in a different tourney sat.)

I have though, played on a team that had a couple of re-painted titanium that looked like that orange worth mayhem. And they looked really good. I doubt many could tell the difference. And yeah they had a 5'7" 120lb guy that could launch them with that bat.


The titanium bats are pretty expensive and they have that metal "ping", so most of the painted bats I see playing softball are composite Miken Ultras painted to look like Freak 98's. Sometimes you'll see one painted as a Worth Mayhem or Mizuno Crush. Its much easier to discover a painted bat than a shaved bat, because sometimes you can tell from the barrel shape, composite color under the paint, and sound, but for a shaved bat all you have to go by is sound.

What are the ramifications in the different baseball leagues if you are caught using an altered bat? In ASA softball, its a 1yr suspension for the 1st offense.
 
Last edited by td25 December 28, 2009 11:30 AM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
1,000+ posts
 
December 28, 2009 12:56 PM

Well since rolled composite bats have been "outed" in college by the NCAA I would say it's cheating @ that level and the other levels may follow suit! But until they're banned @ lower levels I guess it's still ok.

On another cheating note, one of sons friends that graduated last year and was a college pitcher answered an ad on Craisgs list for a pitcher for a mens fast pitch league championship game. He was paid to play under another name and pitch in the championship game. They also had another ex-college player under an assumed name playing. They lost (karma?)
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
100+ posts
 
December 30, 2009 11:47 AM

Yep that's Karma alright!
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 30, 2009 9:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by td25:
The titanium bats are pretty expensive and they have that metal "ping",


HAHA not if you pop the cap and line it with foam. If done right it sounds just like a composite.

quote:
so most of the painted bats I see playing softball are composite Miken Ultras painted to look like Freak 98's. Sometimes you'll see one painted as a Worth Mayhem or Mizuno Crush. Its much easier to discover a painted bat than a shaved bat, because sometimes you can tell from the barrel shape, composite color under the paint, and sound, but for a shaved bat all you have to go by is sound.


With all the different ways to cook a ball and alter a bat, a lot of brain power has been used. If as much effort was put into other areas of life as has been put into getting an extra HR or two in slow pitch, a great many problems could be solved. Smile
 
Last edited by coach scotty December 30, 2009 9:55 PM
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
December 31, 2009 10:36 AM

quote:


With all the different ways to cook a ball and alter a bat, a lot of brain power has been used. If as much effort was put into other areas of life as has been put into getting an extra HR or two in slow pitch, a great many problems could be solved. Smile


I agree.

You know its a problem when you start to see guys hitting a 12" softball coming in at 20 mph farther than most peole can hit a baseball.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
January 2, 2010 1:13 PM

dumb and illegal
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
10+ posts
 
January 10, 2010 10:33 PM

It is illegal I wouldn't advise you to do this. I think bat rolling puts you on the same level as a steroid user in my book. Just break it in with your own repetition, legally that is.
 
 
 
Like Like (0 likes)
Permalink
 
Post Reply