Does anyone out there actually track how many times a batter reaches 1st on an uncaught 3rd strike? I don’t but I’m considering tracking it for both hitters and pitchers and am curious in how and why others might do it.
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How is that scored for a batter and a pitcher?
It's a k for the batter and either a WP or PB against the pitcher or catcher based on the scorer's judgement.
Pitcher gets credit for a K as well. But does not count as an out during the inning. The WP or PB assignation above is correct.
Can't there be an E on F2 or F3 on the throw to first?
JCG posted:Can't there be an E on F2 or F3 on the throw to first?
Yep. Forgot about that...
Here's the question, I've always had, SK. If a batter reaches first on a WP (as opposed to a PB) and later scores - earned run?
edit: assuming otherwise an earned run.
WP would be earned. PB or error would be unearned.
Just for the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible for batter to reach first without WP, PB or E?
Here's the hypothetical situation. Runner first and second. Batter squares to bunt. F3 and F5 crash, F6 goes to 3B, F4 goes to 2B. Pitch is in the dirt but batter bunts at it and misses. Catcher gets ball fairly cleanly but P reacts too slowly to get to 1B in front of batter, who is a burner.
JCG posted:Just for the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible for batter to reach first without WP, PB or E?
Here's the hypothetical situation. Runner first and second. Batter squares to bunt. F3 and F5 crash, F6 goes to 3B, F4 goes to 2B. Pitch is in the dirt but batter bunts at it and misses. Catcher gets ball fairly cleanly but P reacts too slowly to get to 1B in front of batter, who is a burner.
In this situation, it would be a WP allowing the batter even the opportunity to make an attempt to reach 1st base. Bottom line, pitcher gets a K, batter gets a K, there has to be a reason or responsibility for why that runner reaches first when an out otherwise would have occurred. If the pitch is in the dirt, it would be a WP, regardless of what happens after that.
JCG posted:Just for the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible for batter to reach first without WP, PB or E?
Here's the hypothetical situation. Runner first and second. Batter squares to bunt. F3 and F5 crash, F6 goes to 3B, F4 goes to 2B. Pitch is in the dirt but batter bunts at it and misses. Catcher gets ball fairly cleanly but P reacts too slowly to get to 1B in front of batter, who is a burner.
Either FC or single depending on action of fielders. If the Fielder makes a throw to another base then I am going to rule this a K/FC if the play is unsuccessful.
If the fielder grabs the ball and the base is uncovered because pitcher either hesitated or moved toward the ball and catcher ends up eating it - I am ruling K/FC - Defense did not cover the bag and thus no error can be charged.
If the question is on a missed 3rd strike can a batter reach without PB, WP or E - I am not familiar with it. Obviously CI, HBP or BB would be options but unlikely on Strike 3 play since HBP and BB are eliminated by an offer by batter and CI with batter reaching on missed offering at pitch would by rule eliminate CI thus forcing the scorer into a determination of WP, or PB.
Interestingly in a CI scenario with a runner on third if the Batter-runner reaches 1B on this kind of play the runner goes home and scores even if the catcher has the ball hit him and he stands on home plate holding it - unless the bases are loaded and there is a force. 6.08(c) is the rule if you are a geek...like me.
FWIW - Defensive Coach needs to have head examined for this defensive approach unless this is the last inning of a tied game and it is all in to get lead runner.
luv baseball posted:JCG posted:Just for the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible for batter to reach first without WP, PB or E?
Here's the hypothetical situation. Runner first and second. Batter squares to bunt. F3 and F5 crash, F6 goes to 3B, F4 goes to 2B. Pitch is in the dirt but batter bunts at it and misses. Catcher gets ball fairly cleanly but P reacts too slowly to get to 1B in front of batter, who is a burner.
Either FC or single depending on action of fielders. If the Fielder makes a throw to another base then I am going to rule this a K/FC if the play is unsuccessful.
If the fielder grabs the ball and the base is uncovered because pitcher either hesitated or moved toward the ball and catcher ends up eating it - I am ruling K/FC - Defense did not cover the bag and thus no error can be charged.
Don't agree with this. You can't have a dropped 3rd strike AND a single or a FC assigned to it. As I've stated, if a batter Ks with a dropped 3rd strike, you are either going to have a WP or PB that allows that batter to attempt to reach 1B. I stated earlier that there can be an error. After thinking about it, I'm not even sure that will be assigned by itself without a WP or PB. If the error on F2 or F3 allows any runners to advance beyond their current base, an error could come into play. For instance, catcher fields the ball and throws it over the F3s head - batter advances to 2nd. A WP or PB would be assigned to allow the batter to reach first and an E would be assigned allowing him to reach 2nd. But I'm sure that a WP or PB has to be assigned that allows the batter even the opportunity to attempt to reach 1st base after a K.
JCG posted:Can't there be an E on F2 or F3 on the throw to first?
According to MLB scoring rules, no.
Rule 9.12
(d) The official scorer shall not charge an error against:
(5) any fielder when a wild pitch or passed ball is scored.
(c) The official scorer shall not charge an error when the batter is awarded first base on four called balls, when the batter is awarded first base when touched by a pitched ball, or when the batter reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball.
So according to MLB rules, the batter reached as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball. If the runner further advanced, then an error could be charged on a throw that allowed the runner to advance, but the definition above would not result in an error on a throw for the batter reaching first.
Thanks Nuke. That's what I was thinking with what I said above, but didn't have the rule on it.
bballman posted:luv baseball posted:JCG posted:Just for the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible for batter to reach first without WP, PB or E?
Here's the hypothetical situation. Runner first and second. Batter squares to bunt. F3 and F5 crash, F6 goes to 3B, F4 goes to 2B. Pitch is in the dirt but batter bunts at it and misses. Catcher gets ball fairly cleanly but P reacts too slowly to get to 1B in front of batter, who is a burner.
Either FC or single depending on action of fielders. If the Fielder makes a throw to another base then I am going to rule this a K/FC if the play is unsuccessful.
If the fielder grabs the ball and the base is uncovered because pitcher either hesitated or moved toward the ball and catcher ends up eating it - I am ruling K/FC - Defense did not cover the bag and thus no error can be charged.
Don't agree with this. You can't have a dropped 3rd strike AND a single or a FC assigned to it. As I've stated, if a batter Ks with a dropped 3rd strike, you are either going to have a WP or PB that allows that batter to attempt to reach 1B. I stated earlier that there can be an error. After thinking about it, I'm not even sure that will be assigned by itself without a WP or PB. If the error on F2 or F3 allows any runners to advance beyond their current base, an error could come into play. For instance, catcher fields the ball and throws it over the F3s head - batter advances to 2nd. A WP or PB would be assigned to allow the batter to reach first and an E would be assigned allowing him to reach 2nd. But I'm sure that a WP or PB has to be assigned that allows the batter even the opportunity to attempt to reach 1st base after a K.
I believe that everything you state above is correct except the batter reaching first on error. An error would only be charged if the batter reached a subsequent base as the result of a throwing error in the process of the play. The batter reaching first on a dropped third is either WP or PB, no error.
Nuke83 posted:bballman posted:luv baseball posted:JCG posted:Just for the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible for batter to reach first without WP, PB or E?
Here's the hypothetical situation. Runner first and second. Batter squares to bunt. F3 and F5 crash, F6 goes to 3B, F4 goes to 2B. Pitch is in the dirt but batter bunts at it and misses. Catcher gets ball fairly cleanly but P reacts too slowly to get to 1B in front of batter, who is a burner.
Either FC or single depending on action of fielders. If the Fielder makes a throw to another base then I am going to rule this a K/FC if the play is unsuccessful.
If the fielder grabs the ball and the base is uncovered because pitcher either hesitated or moved toward the ball and catcher ends up eating it - I am ruling K/FC - Defense did not cover the bag and thus no error can be charged.
Don't agree with this. You can't have a dropped 3rd strike AND a single or a FC assigned to it. As I've stated, if a batter Ks with a dropped 3rd strike, you are either going to have a WP or PB that allows that batter to attempt to reach 1B. I stated earlier that there can be an error. After thinking about it, I'm not even sure that will be assigned by itself without a WP or PB. If the error on F2 or F3 allows any runners to advance beyond their current base, an error could come into play. For instance, catcher fields the ball and throws it over the F3s head - batter advances to 2nd. A WP or PB would be assigned to allow the batter to reach first and an E would be assigned allowing him to reach 2nd. But I'm sure that a WP or PB has to be assigned that allows the batter even the opportunity to attempt to reach 1st base after a K.
I believe that everything you state above is correct except the batter reaching first on error. An error would only be charged if the batter reached a subsequent base as the result of a throwing error in the process of the play. The batter reaching first on a dropped third is either WP or PB, no error.
That's what I was trying to say with the bold above. Thanks for the rule reference...
If a hitter reaches on a dropped third strike it is always an E2 for the catcher. That is the rule I believe
wahoo24 posted:If a hitter reaches on a dropped third strike it is always an E2 for the catcher. That is the rule I believe
No. That is wrong. If the pitch hits the dirt before it reaches the catcher, or it is deemed uncatchable by the catcher, it is a wild pitch. If the catcher should have caught it, but didn't, it is a passed ball. A passed ball is scored (in terms of determining if a subsequent run is earned or unearned) as if an error was made, but it is not technically scored an error - it is a passed ball. In determining if a subsequent run is earned or unearned on a wild pitch, the run will always wind up earned...
bballman posted:wahoo24 posted:If a hitter reaches on a dropped third strike it is always an E2 for the catcher. That is the rule I believe
No. That is wrong. If the pitch hits the dirt before it reaches the catcher, or it is deemed uncatchable by the catcher, it is a wild pitch. If the catcher should have caught it, but didn't, it is a passed ball. A passed ball is scored (in terms of determining if a subsequent run is earned or unearned) as if an error was made, but it is not technically scored an error - it is a passed ball. In determining if a subsequent run is earned or unearned on a wild pitch, the run will always wind up earned...
bballman is correct. MLB rule was posted earlier, the NFHS rule is:
ART. 4 . . . A strikeout is credited to the pitcher when a third strike is delivered to a batter even though the batter might reach first base because the third strike is a wild pitch (scored WP) or is not caught (scored E2). It is also a strikeout if an attempted third strike bunt is an uncaught foul.
bballman posted:luv baseball posted:JCG posted:Just for the sake of argument, wouldn't it be possible for batter to reach first without WP, PB or E?
Here's the hypothetical situation. Runner first and second. Batter squares to bunt. F3 and F5 crash, F6 goes to 3B, F4 goes to 2B. Pitch is in the dirt but batter bunts at it and misses. Catcher gets ball fairly cleanly but P reacts too slowly to get to 1B in front of batter, who is a burner.
Either FC or single depending on action of fielders. If the Fielder makes a throw to another base then I am going to rule this a K/FC if the play is unsuccessful.
If the fielder grabs the ball and the base is uncovered because pitcher either hesitated or moved toward the ball and catcher ends up eating it - I am ruling K/FC - Defense did not cover the bag and thus no error can be charged.
Don't agree with this. You can't have a dropped 3rd strike AND a single or a FC assigned to it. As I've stated, if a batter Ks with a dropped 3rd strike, you are either going to have a WP or PB that allows that batter to attempt to reach 1B. I stated earlier that there can be an error. After thinking about it, I'm not even sure that will be assigned by itself without a WP or PB. If the error on F2 or F3 allows any runners to advance beyond their current base, an error could come into play. For instance, catcher fields the ball and throws it over the F3s head - batter advances to 2nd. A WP or PB would be assigned to allow the batter to reach first and an E would be assigned allowing him to reach 2nd. But I'm sure that a WP or PB has to be assigned that allows the batter even the opportunity to attempt to reach 1st base after a K.
Yeah - I started out responding to a bunted ball but then reversed and realized it was all about the 3rd strike. You're right I should have killed my first sentence. My bad.
This would never happen bunting with 2 on 2 outs and 2 strikes unless your an idiot. If less than 2 outs first is occupied just a strike out.
granbyfan posted:This would never happen bunting with 2 on 2 outs and 2 strikes unless your an idiot. If less than 2 outs first is occupied just a strike out.
That is an excellent point as well. It was not described in the original post about the number of outs. Which is why I pointed out the defensive approach being so confusing. Even if a batter was trying to bunt with 2 outs - 2B should ALWAYS cover 1B if everyone plays the ball (1B, 3B, P & C).
If he doesn't then it might be time to get a new coach and do some drilling on bunt defense.
luv baseball posted:
That is an excellent point as well. It was not described in the original post about the number of outs. Which is why I pointed out the defensive approach being so confusing. Even if a batter was trying to bunt with 2 outs - 2B should ALWAYS cover 1B if everyone plays the ball (1B, 3B, P & C).
If he doesn't then it might be time to get a new coach and do some drilling on bunt defense.
The reason I wasn’t specific about the situation is because the situation made no difference. All I was wondering was if anyone actually tracked runners reaching on not caught 3rd strikes. All the other questions are great because they show how many different ways the information might be tracked, i.e. number of outs, position of runners, etc..
Seems like a reasonable thing to track, but also something that you would notice long before you had a good sample size. If you have runners reaching 1B after a K with any significant frequency, you have either A) pitcher(s) with nasty breaking stuff. B) catchers who can't throw. Or C) both.
Stats- Attributed the scenario proposed later in the post to you as OP. Swing and a miss Strike 3. No drop by C - I'll head back to the dugout with my K.
JCG posted:
Seems like a reasonable thing to track, but also something that you would notice long before you had a good sample size.
I’m sure it would be noticed, but I’m not at all sure it’s frequency would be correctly understood without tracking it. Before I get accused of bashing coaches yet again, please let me explain.
Without having a valid and objective number to look at, it’s very possible the perception that there is or isn’t an “issue” wouldn’t be fully understood. The reason isn’t because coaches are drooling dolts incapable of seeing something and remembering it, but that human beings don’t remember equal events equally.
FI, if the score is 9-1 and 2 outs in the final inning of a regular season game and the batter reaches on a pitch in the dirt, it’s going to be remembered a bit differently than if it was a championship game with a tied score and the bases loaded in the bottom of the last inning. It’s the same kind of thing that happens with game winning hits as opposed to hits that aren’t as “meaningful”, a walk-off HR as opposed to a HR in a game where the score is lopsided, or similar things. It isn’t that they aren’t seen, it’s that no matter how hard we try, we place different values on everything based on the situation, and when we remember them some time in the future, they don’t carry the same weight.
If you have runners reaching 1B after a K with any significant frequency, you have either A) pitcher(s) with nasty breaking stuff. B) catchers who can't throw. Or C) both.
There’s a D as well. It’s possible the pitcher’s wild as a March hare. 
Whew. I wonder how many high school statistics are wrong because of the judgment all of the scorekeeper? I can't imagine keeping score and getting it right.
lionbaseball posted:
Whew. I wonder how many high school statistics are wrong because of the judgment all of the scorekeeper? I can't imagine keeping score and getting it right.
Fortunately there are quite a few statistics that are objective, and I try to make sure I provide them along with all the subjective ones. See attached.
Scorekeeping is like every other endeavor that requires someone exercising their judgment. All anyone can do is their best to interpret the scoring rules of the game. Where you find poor judgment, it’s most likely because the rules aren’t well understood and/or poor focus on the game. 
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