Unfortunately, they have not adopted a uniform rule, such as Pitch Smart. Rather, they leave it to each state organization to formulate its own. As this is addressed by each state association, we need to lobby hard for rules that will actually protect kids. Otherwise, states like mine will adopt some watered down, worthless rule.
http://www.nfhs.org/articles/p...-pitches?ArtId=92589
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This is big news, and a good thing. It will accelerate the already emerging trend of pitch count rules.
I posted this on another thread a few weeks ago; this is apparently what California is considering in terms of proposed rule changes:
And apparently California (CIF sections) will vote in the fall on it:
www.latimes.com/sports/highsch...-20160712-story.html
2019Dad posted:
This is big news, and a good thing. It will accelerate the already emerging trend of pitch count rules.
I posted this on another thread a few weeks ago; this is apparently what California is considering in terms of proposed rule changes:…
That proposal led to me asking the question about getting umpires involved in the process that caused problems. If that proposal stands as proposed, whether the umpires in Ca want to or not they’re going to be involved in the administration of the process.
They will want no part of it I suspect - nor should they. This is a league/state issue. I posted on this a couple of years ago - coaches post pitch counts into a database - opposition validates. Must be done 24-48 hours after game.
Anyone caught cheating - drop them like a bad habit. Everyone has a cell phone and it doesn't have to be more complicated than Excel. It should take 5 minutes or less even if both teams used 3 or 4 pitchers.
Have both teams scorers sit side by side behind the back stop comparing numbers. There is no shortage of parents and other "helpful" people to get handle the in game data gathering. Three data points - Name, Date & Pitch Count.
luv baseball posted:
They will want no part of it I suspect - nor should they. This is a league/state issue. I posted on this a couple of years ago - coaches post pitch counts into a database - opposition validates. Must be done 24-48 hours after game.
Anyone caught cheating - drop them like a bad habit. Everyone has a cell phone and it doesn't have to be more complicated than Excel. It should take 5 minutes or less even if both teams used 3 or 4 pitchers.
Have both teams scorers sit side by side behind the back stop comparing numbers. There is no shortage of parents and other "helpful" people to get handle the in game data gathering. Three data points - Name, Date & Pitch Count.
If by “they” you mean the umpires, I don’t doubt that many will hate it and fight it like it’s the plague. But if the rule is what’s proposed and an umpire refuses, s/he won’t be umpiring HS games for very long. It’s that simple. The rule making power determines the rules of the game and the rules determine what everyone’s responsibilities are.
What confuses the issue is that this is purely a health/safety issue unlike IP limits that have an effect on awards and records because the unlike IP limits that have an effect on awards and records because they affect ERA. Our section is already wrestling with what will happen in the case of a cancelled game. In the past all records of the game had to be expunged and the game would begin like nothing had taken place before. So even though our limits were 30 outs per week, if a pitcher threw 12 outs on Monday and the game got canceled, that same pitcher could throw 30 outs on Tuesday.
So they made a mistake because they didn’t count the outs for health/safety reason for all those years. But now people are seeing how stupid that was! I’m hearing the data will still be expunged for record keeping purposes, but not for health/safety purposes which makes perfect sense.
For those interested in Texas UIL pitch count rules and implementation updates @SportsDayHS is watching it pretty closely. Follow them and @mattwixon.
Stats4Gnats posted:luv baseball posted:
They will want no part of it I suspect - nor should they. This is a league/state issue. I posted on this a couple of years ago - coaches post pitch counts into a database - opposition validates. Must be done 24-48 hours after game.
Anyone caught cheating - drop them like a bad habit. Everyone has a cell phone and it doesn't have to be more complicated than Excel. It should take 5 minutes or less even if both teams used 3 or 4 pitchers.
Have both teams scorers sit side by side behind the back stop comparing numbers. There is no shortage of parents and other "helpful" people to get handle the in game data gathering. Three data points - Name, Date & Pitch Count.
If by “they” you mean the umpires, I don’t doubt that many will hate it and fight it like it’s the plague. But if the rule is what’s proposed and an umpire refuses, s/he won’t be umpiring HS games for very long. It’s that simple. The rule making power determines the rules of the game and the rules determine what everyone’s responsibilities are.
What confuses the issue is that this is purely a health/safety issue unlike IP limits that have an effect on awards and records because the unlike IP limits that have an effect on awards and records because they affect ERA. Our section is already wrestling with what will happen in the case of a cancelled game. In the past all records of the game had to be expunged and the game would begin like nothing had taken place before. So even though our limits were 30 outs per week, if a pitcher threw 12 outs on Monday and the game got canceled, that same pitcher could throw 30 outs on Tuesday.
So they made a mistake because they didn’t count the outs for health/safety reason for all those years. But now people are seeing how stupid that was! I’m hearing the data will still be expunged for record keeping purposes, but not for health/safety purposes which makes perfect sense.
What section are you in? I thought they all had the proviso "Innings pitched in a no game, i.e., rain out, power failure, etc., shall count towards the total." I know that the Southern Section does, and I just checked four others and they all have the same rule:
Central Section: www.cifcs.org/governance/rules/baseball
San Joaquin Section: www.cifsjs.org/about_cif-sjs/bylaw15-baseball.pdf
Central Coast Section: www.cifccs.org/sports/bsb/2015...ball_bylaws_2016.pdf
Northern Section: http://cifns.org/Constitution/...F%20Constitution.pdf
Without checking the other five sections, it sure seems like a standard CIF rule . . .
Wondering how the umpire will be able to confirm the count that the head coach gave him is correct... Why put the umpire into the middle of a dispute over whether 10 or 11 pitches were thrown in an inning? I certainly can tell you when a pitcher only throws 3, but beyond that I typically don't count or want to know. Cynicism from too many 300+ pitch games (total for both teams) where if you miss one that's what everyone remembers!
If coaches can keep track of opposing players batting out of order then I think it won't be a problem of them keeping track of opposing pitch counts. Either way, if the pitch count is a bit off I don't think you will be seeing 140+ pitch counts and two days rest scenarios.
Link to an article in the Houston Chronicle on Texas prep pitch count implementation.
I regularly have umpires who have trouble tracking mound visits. Freaking mound visits! Now we might ask them to count pitches? No thanks.
2019Dad posted:
What section are you in? ..
Without checking the other five sections, it sure seems like a standard CIF rule . . .
I’m in the Sac Joaquin section and what you pointed out makes it pretty clear that there’s a lot of confusion. I was only passing along what one of the commissioners told a group of us who were discussing what was going on. 
But to tell the truth, for the last 10 years I’ve been the guy on the team I was scoring for who posted the numbers, and as far as I know there was no way in the world anyone would ever be able to check because there was no place those numbers were posted. I suppose IF someone really wanted to check and IF at least one team happened to keep some record of a game that didn’t count, it might be possible to check.
Since most teams here use MaxPreps, one of the problems we face is the way they store and retrieves their data. It would be extremely difficult to keep data for a game that didn’t count as a game played. A few of us are talking to MP to try to come up with a simple way to do that, but they have the same problem any big organization has. It’s really hard to make changes of that nature in a timely fashion, even if they knew exactly what they wanted to do.
In the final analysis, there’s a lot more logistics to take care of than most people are aware of. It can and hopefully will all get done, but it’s not going to happen without a lot of angst.
lionbaseball posted:
If coaches can keep track of opposing players batting out of order then I think it won't be a problem of them keeping track of opposing pitch counts. Either way, if the pitch count is a bit off I don't think you will be seeing 140+ pitch counts and two days rest scenarios.
You’re right. It won’t take much more than the threat of being disciplined to stop the vast majority of major problems. Unfortunately, there’s gonna always be those who aren’t happy with not being allowed to run their program however they like and will raise holy hell if they find any kind of problem and will scream “I told ya so!”. “The system’s rigged and unfair!”
BTW, there are more coaches that can’t, don’t, or won’t keep track of opposing players batting out of order than you think. 
ironhorse posted:
I regularly have umpires who have trouble tracking mound visits. Freaking mound visits! Now we might ask them to count pitches? No thanks.
No one, not one person has even suggested that the umpires count pitches! The closest suggestion to that has been that the umpires be given the information after the team representatives have agreed on the pitch count. If it were me I wouldn’t even ask them to write it down! I’d make sure they were handed a piece of paper with the information already on it.
As an umpire I can see scenarios that will be a "nightmare."
Will umpires have to keep track of he number of pitches thrown?
Will umpires need to "certify" coaches records?
Will umpires need to enforce pitch count rules resulting from previous games? Will this be done in pregame meetings, after each inning or only when there is an infraction?
Will umpires be responsible for knowing what pitchers have how many pitches available?
Then you get into the mechanics; do you stop the game to "certify" pitch counts each inning? Every time there is a pitching change?
Will umpires be responsible for informing/warning coaches of pitch count limits?
Years ago umpires had to inspect bats and helmets, this was changed to allow head coaches to affirm that their equipment was in compliance (we still get broken helmets, bats and catchers gear on a regular basis and the coaches response is "let the kids play"). Will pitch counts fall to the coaches with their affirmation of compliance be adequate?
While pitch counts are important for safety, I see no easy, sane or realistic scenario for the management of pitch counts.
ILVBB,
Those are all very good questions that should and can be answered before any policy is implemented. I can’t speak as to what every state is doing, but I know mine is discussing a lot of similar questions.
I can say I have heard of scenarios where the umpire will keep track of the number of pitches thrown but never heard anything about an umpire certifying coaches records or enforcing pitch count rules although I wouldn’t rule it out.
If the powers to be believe pitch counts really are important for health and safety, a management scenario will eventually be found whether its sane, easy, or realistic.
The more I think about this the more that it scares the "Cr*ap" out of me.
The thought of umpires being responsible for any aspect of the administration and application of rules associated with pitch counts scares me. Once the umpire is brought into having responsibility over the administration and application of “pitch counts” we are assuming liability for the health and welfare of the player beyond the safety of the immediate game.
Once the umpire has any responsibility for any game’s pitch counts they will effectively assume the liability of all games that proceed and follow if one of the participants becomes injured.
Why would an umpire want to assume that liability?
So, most of my questions have been asked above, but the next issue I see with the CA rule has nothing to do with umpires.
Under this, I see a lot of potential gamesmanship. You need your ace to go as long as possible? Have him pitch 99, let someone else finish the inning, then have him come back the next and pitch the whole one. Shave a pitch or two off every inning and you can get him to face another batter towards the end.
Y'all bein' set up again...
The goal here is to put the brakes on the problem of overuse. The suggestion I have made above is a solid first step to get the information into decision makers hands.
Like any system you have a choice going in - solve 100% of the potential problems and build a mousetrap that has bowling balls, candles, anvils and a bird cage for every perceived issue that MIGHT occur. Alternatively you build something sufficient to the primary goal and a couple of easily identifiable weaknesses and then evaluate after implementation.
My perspective is that anything that puts a real speed bump into the process for coaches running up pitch counts is the correct step. Don't over engineer the solution - just get something up that has public information and some teeth if caught cheating. If successful in Phase I then 95% of the problem is solved. Tweak any holes or issues from there and a few years latter it will be a normal part of the game.
Think about this - once upon a time there was resistance to batting helmets even though there was a death in MLB it took50 years afterward for them to happen. If there is anyone making any argument for sending kids up to the plate without a helmet I will show you a lunatic that needs to be kept away from children.
This is no different. It is too hard or a hassle is a piss poor argument that should be rejected out of hand. It is not that hard so let's get on with it and fix this once and for all.
ILVBB,
Personally I think you’re worried about nothing, especially since as far as I know the only responsibility for the umpires being discussed by any state assn so far is to have them collect information, but I do understand the fear of litigation. Let’s see what’s come up with before putting a lawyer on retainer.
I don't like the "finish the inning" rule. It would make a lot more sense to just be allowed to finish the batter. If you're one pitch away and get to start and inning, what happens if it ends up being a 40 pitch inning?? The 100 pitch count just went to 140. Doesn't make a lot of sense to do it that way.
My concern is the application and administration of any rules that are implemented. The three parties that should be involved are the home coach, visitor coach and sanctioning body. Umpires should not be involved.
However, over the past 10-years umpiring games, I have seen it all. I have seen line-up cards on everything from the back of a students homework to a cardboard six-pack holder turned inside out.
Coaches want to coach, players want to play, parents want their kids to have a positive and safe experience. Now you throw in the administration and application of rules governing pitch counts and you bring in "reporting and administration" of information needed to apply rules. Someone needs to be responsible both on an off the field for pitch counts and in my opinion that should not be the umpire.
The details of the NFHS mandate is in the application; not the need which most will agree upon.
Matt13,
Wouldn’t that be impossible if they said a pitcher could return in the same game only if they’d met the rest requirements based on the number of pitches thrown in the last appearance which would be the 1st appearance that game, and that a 2nd appearance would be charged?
FI, pitcher “A” throws 30 pitches and is removed. He could be put in again later since no rest is required, but still not go over the 100 pitch daily limit. However, if he threw more than 30 pitches he wouldn’t be able to be put back in because he hadn’t met the rest requirement?
All the questions like that are great and should be taken into account and resolved if possible. Coaches will always play the “gamesmanship” card if they think they need to in order to give themselves the best chance to win a game.
Try this - works in Little League just fine for the past 7 years.
http://spectrumscoreboards.com...h%20Count%20Displays
or
http://www.allamericanscoreboa...rd.php?number=8347PC
or
http://www.electro-mech.com/baseball/lx1130-series/
The world is ready
Not sure every HS in the country is going to jump right in and buy a new scoreboard. Heck, it took our HS 4 years to replace enough light bulbs that you could finally tell a 1 from a 7, a 5 from a 6 and a 8 from a 0.
Buckeye 2015 posted:I don't like the "finish the inning" rule. It would make a lot more sense to just be allowed to finish the batter. If you're one pitch away and get to start and inning, what happens if it ends up being a 40 pitch inning?? The 100 pitch count just went to 140. Doesn't make a lot of sense to do it that way.
Completely agree.
HRCJR posted:
Try this - works in Little League just fine for the past 7 years.
Try asking Cooperstown how many violations there’s been. They won’t be able to tell you because there’s little or no oversight beyond the league level.
In order to have any “teeth” in a rule like that there has to be a way to police it. Co has tried to make it possible to police by making it mandatory that all appearances for all pitchers are posted in MaxPreps, but as far as I know they still have no policing function so no one knows how well the rule is working.
Buckeye 2015 posted:
Not sure every HS in the country is going to jump right in and buy a new scoreboard. Heck, it took our HS 4 years to replace enough light bulbs that you could finally tell a 1 from a 7, a 5 from a 6 and a 8 from a 0.
LOL. Heck, the last school I scored for didn’t even have a scoreboard.
Since I score games electronically I have accurate pitch counts during the games, but that isn’t the problem. People miss the part about rest. How does having the pitch count on the scoreboard insure a pitcher’s had the required rest?
That’s why I’m working with MaxPreps to add the ability to show all pitchers and the next date of eligibility before the game starts. That way everyone would know prior to there being a problem, so the only thing anyone would have to watch is that maximum number. But right now MP doesn’t have that capability and likely wouldn’t have it up and running prior to next year even if they decided to do it. 
Not saying it has to be a electronic scoreboard. Plenty of leagues use things like these: http://www.ondecksports.com/Pr...s/Manual-Scoreboards
Just put them in a visible place
Stats4Gnats posted:HRCJR posted:
Try this - works in Little League just fine for the past 7 years.
Try asking Cooperstown how many violations there’s been. They won’t be able to tell you because there’s little or no oversight beyond the league level.
In order to have any “teeth” in a rule like that there has to be a way to police it. Co has tried to make it possible to police by making it mandatory that all appearances for all pitchers are posted in MaxPreps, but as far as I know they still have no policing function so no one knows how well the rule is working.
Well - if I were a district Grand poo Bah I would get the data into excel and spend about 3 minutes formatting it to tell me if there was a violation. The first coach that gets suspended will get the rest of the hens to stay in line.
Having seen a few hundred HS coaches over my life almost all of them will recoil from being publicly embarrassed for cheating. This is a group of people that love to talk in no particular order about stuff like:
1) Respect for the game (whatever that means) 2) Doing things correctly 3) Hard work and discipline 4) Being a good teammate 5) Honor 6) Integrity
There are more but you get the point. It will take a little more work from the people that run these shit shows and I understand there is a excellent chance they'll hose it up because generally speaking the least competent people in HS sports are the administrators. But they all aren't idiots and sooner or latter they will figure it out.
The really sad part is we have arrived to the point where things that should be common sense have to be governed by a sanctioning body. The simplest method is to trust the coaches to do the right thing and overall you can do this but there have been enough idiots out there to mean this can't happen. We have to be lorded over by a governing body.
The problem that needs to be solved first before you even think about moving on is "how does the governing body know the information is relevant"? No matter who counts pitches - umpire, coaches, parents, hot dog vendor, drunk guy who hangs out across the street - how does the governing body know that number is accurate. Let's say home book keeper, parent, 3rd string right fielder, etc..... has down for that inning 22 pitches for their pitcher. Visiting book keeper, parent, 3rd string right fielder, etc..... has 23 pitches. So who's right? How do you reconcile the discrepancy? How long does the game get held up while you figure this out?
Well you could always say the home team is the official count - then why is the visiting team keeping this record? They keep scorebooks for stats which is why you sometimes see that guy on the other team hitting .343 when he has a lot of "hits" that the SS didn't have a play on but he really did.
You could say if there's a discrepancy of one pitch you go with the higher number, if there is a difference of two numbers (home team has 22 / visiting team has 24) then split the difference and go with 23, if there is a three number difference (22 / 25) then go with 24 and so on. What do you do when the other team is having 2 or 3 pitch differences to the high end each inning?
This is like most other things - a governing body says they are doing something for the health and safety of kids then creates this monster that is a beast to deal with but if you buck the system pointing out it's flaws then you're chastised for not caring about kids health and safety. Nobody wants to be that guy but that's what you're left with.
It's like the old saying - "if it helps only one person then it's worth it". No it's not. If we are working our butts off but only helping one kid then we need to step back and try to figure out a way to help more and maybe all students.
End of the day we will be left to the character and honor of coaches and the diligence of players and parents to make sure kids are not overworked.
^^^ OK, so...pitch counts, yes or no? what say you?
We recently played at Lake Pointe where they abided by pitch smart...it seemed to work well, just brought back little league memories. We just finished sons freshman year of high school, and days of rest were usually not a problem. Where the problem lies was we had a kid out up 141 one day, and another kid hung 124 one day. I made our coaches aware at the start, I count my kids pitches as the game goes on. He NEVER was asked to go beyond 95, and I never mentioned pitch count again. The daily max under pitch smart could've saved those kids where they were allowed to go too far in my mind
And what's sad here is that we've just had a long discussion on pitch counts in high school baseball. Non-school baseball had a single post... the last one. But we're gonna solve all of the "overuse" problems in the few months that is high school baseball!
luv baseball,
The problem isn’t how the data get stored. Although there’s a heck of a lot more to it than whipping out an Xcel SS and spending a few minutes formatting it, it certainly isn’t brain surgery, and in fact is in place for the most part and free as well. The problem is in how the information gets into whatever media is used, how to make sure it’s as valid as possible.
I agree that the chances for screwing things up are on the high side, but a lot of that is because NFHS refuses to step up and lay down the guidelines. That will allow all the different assns. to have different guidelines and processes, and that’s what will muddle everything up.
In the other thread on this subject a few of our resident umpires raised good reasons why they would not want to be responsible for the count. This always seemed to assume that the PU would be the one keeping and/or reporting the count. IF the powers-that-be were inclined to give them a role, seems to be the BU is the guy. It would not be all that hard for him to keep a pitch count with a simple clicker.
(though I still think it can be managed without the umps getting involved)
coach2709,
You’re correct, it is a damn shame the coaches can’t be trusted to just do the right thing and do it the right way as well. Unfortunately, coaches are human like the rest of us and that means there will be those who won’t do it. But it wouldn’t be so bad except that what we’re talking about is more than just how the game is played. This is about trying to mitigate health problems caused by pitching a baseball.
The problem you identify as being the 1st one needing to be solved has had several variations. Since it’s happening in many places it’s obvious an agreed on number can be come up with. I’ve done it on many occasions and often come up with differences with the other “counter”. If it’s done inning by inning, it’s usually only one or two pitches and pretty simple to resolve. If there is a discrepancy that isn’t resolved quickly, so what? Unless there’s some question about whether the current pitcher can continue the game doesn’t stop and isn’t even slowed down, unless of course whoever is counting pitches is a game participant like a coach.
You’re doing the same thing so many others do when thinking about this. Don’t mix up pitch counts with other stats. There is only one purpose for tracking them and that’s for the health/safety of the pitchers. There’s a possibility of some kind of award for the “normal” stats because they can be used to rank players, but that’s not the case for the number of pitches. Coaches have been trusted for many years to take care of the “normal” stats which is why there’s more care needed for this.
Yes, the governing body can certainly cause things to take a lot more work than is needed or necessary, but that’s the way it always is in everything. They’re the governing body for some reason. Hopefully this change won’t turn into the “beast” you fear so much but it’s going to happen.
It’s a sad thing to say, but the character and honor of coaches and the diligence of players and parents to make sure kids are not overworked is precisely why this change is going into effect. If every coach was of high character and honorable and every parent made sure the kids weren’t overworked, there wouldn’t need to be any pitching limitations at any level.
I hope all coaches go into this thing the way the guy I score for now is. He doesn’t see this change as the governing body lording over him at all. He admits he could have done a better job of monitoring pitching and rest in the past, but didn’t rank it as high as many of the other responsibilities he has. I’ve talked about it with him at length and showed him how I’ll make sure before every game he’ll know for every player on the team who has pitched, the next legal date they can pitch. That, combined with getting the pitch count after every inning to keep a pitcher from going over the limit for 1 day will virtually eliminate any pitch count or rest violations. No muss or fuss.
Bulldog 19 posted:
And what's sad here is that we've just had a long discussion on pitch counts in high school baseball. Non-school baseball had a single post... the last one. But we're gonna solve all of the "overuse" problems in the few months that is high school baseball!
Who’s talking about solving all of the “overuse” problems? That will never happen, but since there are well over 600,000 regular season HS baseball games every year and likely at least 5 times as many played every season that are played under NFHS rules, I’d say that was a pretty good effort.
