bonus money

If a kid takes $50,000 or whatever in bonus money to sign with a team with it understood he is going to college first, if he decides not to play pro ball then,  does he have to give the money back or he just can't play for any other team? Kingsman

Original Post

There are a handful of players who have attended college full time and played minors when not attending class. It's not common. Brad Ausmus attended Dartmouth but played in the minors. Ken Holtzman did the same at Illinois.

Kingsman posted:

If a kid takes $50,000 or whatever in bonus money to sign with a team with it understood he is going to college first, if he decides not to play pro ball then,  does he have to give the money back or he just can't play for any other team? Kingsman

A high school senior,  either goes to college full time or signs as a professional and plays pro ball full time. Player can still attend college in the off season if he wishes.

 

RJM posted:

There are a handful of players who have attended college full time and played minors when not attending class. It's not common. Brad Ausmus attended Dartmouth but played in the minors. Ken Holtzman did the same at Illinois.

Granted. College players can try to negotiate for accommodations to complete their degrees.

I know a young man drafted after his junior year from a high academic school where he was an excellent student who was able to negotiate be freed from his baseball obligations each of his first two years as a pro in time to attend the fall semester as a full time student and graduate only a semester later than he would have if he had not signed at all.

However, Kingsman seems to envision an unrealistic scenario involving a high school player who takes the pro money and then heads off to college with only a vague future obligation to the team that paid him. As TPM pointed out, having your cake and eating it, too, isn't one of the choices. 

Another thread inspired me to go into GameChanger and look up my 2017's stats during his last year of LL at 12yo.

He averaged more than 2 K's per inning.  WHIP and ERA were both under 1.

He's yet to throw a pitch in HS but I'm still thinking he's got to be worth at least a late-round draft choice as an RHP.

Right?

JCG posted:

Another thread inspired me to go into GameChanger and look up my 2017's stats during his last year of LL at 12yo.

He averaged more than 2 K's per inning.  WHIP and ERA were both under 1.

He's yet to throw a pitch in HS but I'm still thinking he's got to be worth at least a late-round draft choice as an RHP.

Right?

Riiiiiiight!

Swampboy posted:

The act of signing the contract for the bonus makes him a professional baseball player and ends his eligibility to play in college. 

At that point he is contractually obligated to play minor league ball for the team he signed with.

I don't doubt you. But I am confused.  What is happening when I read about big time college players signing with such and such a big league team? I see it often, Kingsman

Swampboy posted:
RJM posted:

There are a handful of players who have attended college full time and played minors when not attending class. It's not common. Brad Ausmus attended Dartmouth but played in the minors. Ken Holtzman did the same at Illinois.

Granted. College players can try to negotiate for accommodations to complete their degrees.

I know a young man drafted after his junior year from a high academic school where he was an excellent student who was able to negotiate be freed from his baseball obligations each of his first two years as a pro in time to attend the fall semester as a full time student and graduate only a semester later than he would have if he had not signed at all.

However, Kingsman seems to envision an unrealistic scenario involving a high school player who takes the pro money and then heads off to college with only a vague future obligation to the team that paid him. As TPM pointed out, having your cake and eating it, too, isn't one of the choices. 

Appologies, I am ignorant of these things. That is why I go ton the forum. Really didn't envision anything  except to ask the question. Thanks, Kingsman

Kingsman posted:
Swampboy posted:

The act of signing the contract for the bonus makes him a professional baseball player and ends his eligibility to play in college. 

At that point he is contractually obligated to play minor league ball for the team he signed with.

I don't doubt you. But I am confused.  What is happening when I read about big time college players signing with such and such a big league team? I see it often, Kingsman

Players who have attended college for three years or reached the age of 21 are eligible to be drafted, and that's when the best college baseball players do get drafted. When they sign, their college eligibility ends, and they begin their climb through the minor leagues. 

Their bonus obliges them to keep playing for the team until they are released or traded or until the contract is fulfilled (7 years for an initial contract after being drafted).

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/...g-and-bonus-tracker/

The link above will list the slot value and the actual bonus, but only for the first 10 rounds.  After round 10, teams are penalized (fined) for amounts over $125,000 (I think this is the new amount this year), but you will see a lot of college seniors go for $1000 or $2000, since they don't have the leverage the college juniors do.

So, $10k, 20K, and less is very common, especially in the later rounds, for college seniors.  You will also see a drastic dip in many bonuses in rounds 8-10 (where teams will also pick seniors), so they stay within their slot amounts (their budget).

 

Here's something I wasn't aware of...local kid drafted late 2015...signed and pitched in the minors remainder of 2015 and all of 2016...then released...now on the roster of a top D2 college.    I believe his signing bonus was around $25K.

Was not aware released minor leaguers could return and play in college.  I'm assuming this is not allowed at D1 level?

bigcubbiefan posted:

Here's something I wasn't aware of...local kid drafted late 2015...signed and pitched in the minors remainder of 2015 and all of 2016...then released...now on the roster of a top D2 college.    I believe his signing bonus was around $25K.

Was not aware released minor leaguers could return and play in college.  I'm assuming this is not allowed at D1 level?

Sure he's not playing another sport, like football, in college?

BigCub: I believe d2, NAIA, and Canada allow players who have become professionals can play college ball, but for every year played as a pro, at least a year of eligibility evaporates (and there are other rules which may apply) (except Canada [i believe]. (My info is pretty dated, however.)

King: all the information you seek is found with a Goggle search. It would be more productive to bring somewhat of an understanding how the system works and then ask questions, as opposed to dropping a vague and ambiguous question to an anonymous baseball forum. There is a lot of material on the MLB , Baseball America, Wikipedia, and Perfect Game websites, amongst other places - which will build a foundation upon which you can then ask questions to fill in blanks or which would otherwise be specific and not general.

There is so much to learn, and we all started from scratch; but, the info is out there and easily found.

(BTW, there was a kid who was drafted and signed out of HS who went to Stanford before he began playing; his career was non-existent. In pre-draft discussions, we tried to get teams to agree to allow S to attend at least his first semester on our nickel (school has a rule that once you matriculate and leave in good standing, you can return to finish). We were patted on the head and politely told that wasn't the way things work.)

Kingsman posted:
TPM posted:

Keep in mind that also depends on the player when making accommodations.

50k as a signing bonus out of HS, go to college!

That raises another question:  How common is a $20,000 signing bonus or even a $10,000 bonus? Kingsman

The range is typically seven figures for first rounders to 150K for 10th rounders. Then it drops off rapidly. Teams have a cap on the amount of bonus money they can give out.

Former pros can play D2 ball.  Not sure about D3.  D1 is ruled out.

As to lesser bonuses, they do occur.  With the last collective bargaining agreement, a lot more teeth were put into the "slot system."  Although the slot schedule amounts go up each year, you don't see as many outliers as you once did. 

You do see guys get below slot.  Most commonly this happens if they stay in college until their eligibility is exhausted, as that leaves them with no negotiating leverage with the team that drafts them.  (Hence the willingness of so many guys to forgo senior year to take a pro deal after their junior year; that senior year can become an expensive proposition.)  Other below-slot deals can happen if a player has something previously unknown turn up in a physical.

Also, some MLB teams are just more stubborn in negotiations than others.  This is why some agents try to steer some players away from some teams.

Look here, everyone can see each round...

As early as the 5th round $20,000.  By the 7th round 2 playerrs si9gned for $5,000 and 3 others for $20,000. By the ninth round several signed for between $1,000 to $10,000. Then in round 11 some early round prospects started to go.  In the 11th round everyone got between $100,000 and $1.2 million.  This is due to the slotting rules.

https://www.perfectgame.org/Dr...Signings.aspx?y=2016

You can also check past years along with each round above.

Agree with Midlo.

I realize now why so many D2 or D3 players dont get drafted. Son has 4 pitchers that could get called on draft day, 1 senior, 3 junors being second day guys however with tuition being 40+k a year and paid for by athletic money and grants, etc. more than likely they will finish school, unless the team agrees to pay for them to finish, which wont happen.

The Brady Aiken episode is my favorite example to-date of how teams manage their slot buckets.  As a result of the Astros losing Aiken's bucket of money, they lost out on signing two other players (which they were going to fund by skimming off the top of Aiken's slot value)  Rounds 1-10 are use-it or lose-it, but you can allocate the 1-10 bucket differently than outlined.  #1 picks IMO are never going to get full slot money as it is simply to easy to hold back $1-2 million and work towards signing others.  The picks in round 10 getting $5k are, to a degree, giving up a few thousand dollars to enjoy the lifetime designation of a top 10 round draft pick (they might get $10-20k if they got picked up in round #18) and the club uses the slot savings to sign others.  I have seen it written that these guys are not really top 10 round guys from a performance standpoint, but serve a purpose when they accept $5k.  

As for the comment about D2/D3 players getting drafted (especially Day2), I've seen written on this board that the dollars allocated towards the scholarship portion of any contract are highly discounted by the club in that only a small percentage (<20%) of available funds are actually utilized.  I am still of the opinion that this is a personal choice and an individual player can utilize 100% if they work hard and pay attention, but I assume the clubs apply a 10-20% factor to these costs which greatly diminish their impact in the draft selection process.  That said, some junior pitcher - who might get a $25k signing bonus - is probably much better off staying put and finishing school and maybe getting $5k the next year (that $20k will make little to no difference compared to the degree in hand).

One thing that I understand, but don't agree with... If it is $20,000 or $50,000 you automatically go to college.  I get why people think that way, but everyone is in a different situation.  There are some kids that are actually better off signing.

Also have a problem with what is called life changing money.  Obviously that can't be the same amount for everyone.   For Trump's kid what would life changing money be?  Truth is there are kids out there that $50,000 would completely change their life.  For others, $5 million won't change their life all that much.

The number of talented kids living in extreme poverty is amazing.  Baseball is a way out for some of them.  They can get some money, but more importantly they get an opportunity.  Some of these opportunities become a career in baseball even after they are done playing.

PGStaff posted:

One thing that I understand, but don't agree with... If it is $20,000 or $50,000 you automatically go to college.  I get why people think that way, but everyone is in a different situation.  There are some kids that are actually better off signing.

Also have a problem with what is called life changing money.  Obviously that can't be the same amount for everyone.   For Trump's kid what would life changing money be?  Truth is there are kids out there that $50,000 would completely change their life.  For others, $5 million won't change their life all that much.

The number of talented kids living in extreme poverty is amazing.  Baseball is a way out for some of them.  They can get some money, but more importantly they get an opportunity.  Some of these opportunities become a career in baseball even after they are done playing.

Yep only 30% of the population over 25 has a 4 year degree.  Why wouldn't a player that more than likely isn't destined to finish college (with or without baseball) take a $20K-$50K bonus out of High School?  

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