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For me, it really does not matter righty or lefty.

Going back to Koufax in 1965, there is no better performance in MLB or the series that Bumgarner this year, and especially tonight.

What we saw this WS and post-season from that young lefty is beyond words to describe. Today was incredible. i always though Koufax going 9 on 2 days rest in 1965 would never be done again.  Tonight was not quite that but who cares. Giants WIN!

Over 162, Kershaw is with the best. When we get beyond 162, during 3 post seasons and 3 WS wins, no one currently competes with Bumgarner.  No one could ever doubt  his pure guts, ability and willingness to compete than coming off 120 pitches and 2 days rest. What  Bumgarner did tonight has only been done by guys like Koufax, not Kershaw.

Both are great talents.  For me, the answer today is Bum.  He's proved he can do it on the biggest stage with the biggest stakes.  Kershaw has yet to do anything like we just saw (not many have) or even win a championship. However, my answer tomorrow may be Kershaw because he has the tools.  He just needs the opportunity.

If you want a guy:

--Who has never finished higher than 9th in Cy Young voting over a guy who is about to win it for the third time;

--Who has a career WAR of 15.3 over a guy only one year older with a career WAR of 39.7;

--Whose career-best single season ERA is 2.77 over a guy whose career ERA is 2.48 and who has led the league 4 years in a row in both ERA and WHIP . . .

 

. . . because of his jewelry collection, be my guest. 

 

Until this year, Bumgarner's postseason record was a solid 3-2 W-L record with an ERA of 3.79.  Then last month, he turned in an historically great postseason.

 

However, even with it, Bumgarner's career body of work simply does not match up to Kershaw's--because Kershaw is on track for an historically great career

 

If Bumgarner stays healthy and continues as he has begun, when he retires, the discussions about him will center on whether his postseason record is enough to get him over the hump and into Cooperstown. 

 

If Kershaw stays healthy and continues as he has begun, when he retires, first ballot hall of fame will be a foregone conclusion and the discussions about him will center on where he ranks among the top three or five LHP's of all time. 

Bumgarner is incredible, and at his best in the playoffs.  What he did is unbelievable!

 

However there is an award that goes to the best pitcher every year. (Cy Young)

 

This year Kershaw at age 26 might be the League MVP and for sure will win his third Cy Young Award in four years.  BTW, he finished second the other year. 

 

The future is very bright for both pitchers.  Hopefully they both pitch for a long time and then we can compare the results.

 

As important as the Play Offs and World Series is, there have been many legends that have not done well.  Also many normal type players become World Series stars.

 

As much as I enjoy the play offs, it seems strange when two teams are playing for the championship that didn't even win their own division over 162 games. We all know that any MLB club can win a series.

 

That said, what Madison Bumgarner did this year will go down in history as one of, if not the best World Series performance ever.  What Kershaw has done is put together four of the best years ever.

 

Both are great!

I think it is rather easy to make the decision depending on what you want. Kershaw has the greater tools and is undoubtedly the greater pitcher over the time they have been in the ML. But at this point if it is the seventh game of the World Series I would take Bumgarner. Don't forget that pitchers like Lefty Gomez, Mickey Lolich, and Lou Burdette were outstanding in various World Series of the past but no one would take them over Kershaw just because of that. Also I tend to downgrade Bumgarner's performance slightly because KC was not exactly the 1927 Yankees. Actually KC was a pretty pathetic overall offensive team that had tremendous relief pitching in these days of 5 and 6 inning starters, the best defense in baseball and very good team speed in every aspect. Their hitting was just barely good enough to keep them in games. So I hesitate to rate Bumgarner's performance as the best ever in a WS. After all, I saw Koufax in the 1963 & 1965 Series and Gibson in 1967 & 1968.

Originally Posted by Three Bagger:

I think it is rather easy to make the decision depending on what you want. Kershaw has the greater tools and is undoubtedly the greater pitcher over the time they have been in the ML. But at this point if it is the seventh game of the World Series I would take Bumgarner. Don't forget that pitchers like Lefty Gomez, Mickey Lolich, and Lou Burdette were outstanding in various World Series of the past but no one would take them over Kershaw just because of that. Also I tend to downgrade Bumgarner's performance slightly because KC was not exactly the 1927 Yankees. Actually KC was a pretty pathetic overall offensive team that had tremendous relief pitching in these days of 5 and 6 inning starters, the best defense in baseball and very good team speed in every aspect. Their hitting was just barely good enough to keep them in games. So I hesitate to rate Bumgarner's performance as the best ever in a WS. After all, I saw Koufax in the 1963 & 1965 Series and Gibson in 1967 & 1968.


Ironic you mention Lolich and them come around to Gibby on the 1968 series.  Lolich was 3-0 all complete games with 1.67 ERA including Game 7 on 2 days rest over Gibson.  Without going to far out on a limb I would say the 1968 Cards were a far sight better than the 2014 Royals.

 

Never understand why this effort is totally lost when talking about the World Series.  It was a good as any.

 

But make no mistake.  If you had a choice between Gibson and Lolich...gimme Gibby.  He was nasty and his stuff was wicked too.

Every time they heralded Bumgarner's efforts I thought about Lolich in '68. And three years previous in '65 Koufax allowed one earned run in 24 innings and pitched game seven on two days rest. The '65 Twins were a powerhouse hitting team. Being the big gambler I was at age ten I won fifty cents when the Dodgers won the Series.

 

http://espn.go.com/classic/bio.../koufaxsandyadd.html

I'm as big a fan of Koufax and Gibson as anyone.  I am not sure how their performances in a very different era detract in any way from what Bumgarner did in 2010 when he was 20, in 2012 and again this year.  Bumgarner performed this year at the highest level, with  playoffs lasting nearly 30 days. Gibson and Koufax didn't do that and neither did Lolich but all that proves is the situations are not completely comparable on the field, with travel, night games, the media pressure and the distractions.  He cannot control the opposition. Before the playoffs, most posting on this board had everyone but the Giants winning. Even before the series, the speed, bullpen and hitting of the Royals was most of the discussion.

With all the scouting information available these days which was not in 1965, 68, 69, it is a very different game.  At age 25, Bumgarner has done things in the post season which compare with the best. He can't do it against the 65 Twins or the 68 Cards, but he did do it against the 2014 Pirates, Cardinals, Nationals and Royals and he did it at a level Kershaw could not duplicate in the post-season. It isn't like this guy came out of nowhere and he is continuing to get better every season. 

If the award was only given for the post-season, I'd agree that Bumgardner should get it. But the award is for everything EXCEPT the post season, and that's where he comes up lacking when compared to Kershaw, and the others who finished ahead of him in the voting like Cueto and Wainwright. Those who believe Bumgardner should have gotten it are really saying all the members of the BBWA don’t know what they’re talking about. There’s a reason he didn’t get even one 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place vote!

InfieldDad - I think that line started not as a slam on Bumgarner but more of a pump the breaks on the greatest World Series performance of all time talk and so you get the comparisons to what happened in the past.  That was my approach to it anyhow.

 

No doubt it was a great effort worthy of praise and recognition - but the greatest ever - that conversation is what makes this site fun IMO.

Originally Posted by infielddad:

I'm as big a fan of Koufax and Gibson as anyone.  I am not sure how their performances in a very different era detract in any way from what Bumgarner did in 2010 when he was 20, in 2012 and again this year.  Bumgarner performed this year at the highest level, with  playoffs lasting nearly 30 days. Gibson and Koufax didn't do that and neither did Lolich but all that proves is the situations are not completely comparable on the field, with travel, night games, the media pressure and the distractions.  He cannot control the opposition. Before the playoffs, most posting on this board had everyone but the Giants winning. Even before the series, the speed, bullpen and hitting of the Royals was most of the discussion.

With all the scouting information available these days which was not in 1965, 68, 69, it is a very different game.  At age 25, Bumgarner has done things in the post season which compare with the best. He can't do it against the 65 Twins or the 68 Cards, but he did do it against the 2014 Pirates, Cardinals, Nationals and Royals and he did it at a level Kershaw could not duplicate in the post-season. It isn't like this guy came out of nowhere and he is continuing to get better every season. 

Infielddad, change "could not duplicate" to "did not duplicate" in the next to last sentence and I agree with everything you wrote.

Originally Posted by luv baseball:

InfieldDad - I think that line started not as a slam on Bumgarner but more of a pump the breaks on the greatest World Series performance of all time talk and so you get the comparisons to what happened in the past.  That was my approach to it anyhow.

 

No doubt it was a great effort worthy of praise and recognition - but the greatest ever - that conversation is what makes this site fun IMO.

Thanks for the post and observation.  I happen to support the view that over 162 games, Kershaw is proving he is terrific and has the potential to be on the list of the best.  That hanging curve to Adams and his earlier late game issue certainly make me wonder? He, in my view, is not one to lose focus/concentration. I also doubt the crowd/post-season impact him.  Because he is so good, I hope he does have future post-season success so his talent is not diminished by some because of the post-season.

Personally, I like the idea of Bumgarner being 2nd or wherever others want to put him.  I believe Bumgarner likes it too...makes him work harder and be mentally tougher.  Locally it is well know he respects Kershaw a lot and watches his games carefully.

http://www.sfgate.com/giants/a...miration-5242996.php

 

One aspect not discussed yet is how they compare on a value basis, with Kershaw signed for 7 years at over $30M per year vs Bumgarner signed for 5 for a total value of about $37M. While I do think Kershaw is more dominant thus far, on a value basis, the dollar gap is much wider than the performance gap, in my view.

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