I was just sent this article, which appears in a Southern California newspaper. Interesting read, I'd love to read the comments about this one.
http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Loca...ball_31.4670af9.html
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Here in Dallas, one of the top nationally ranked club s.o.c.c.e.r organizations gave their players an ultimatum. They required their players to be year round players, not allowing any "part timers"...who they defined those that played for their High School teams to be. There were 3 players, who were both the top club U17 players as well as the 3 best players for the same HS team...ranked in the top 10 nationally.
The players didn't like it. Felt the club turned their back on them, and chose to play for the HS team instead of the club team. So far, none of the other clubs have followed this one's lead. Jury's still out about whether this one will keep or toss the new policy given the reaction.
The players didn't like it. Felt the club turned their back on them, and chose to play for the HS team instead of the club team. So far, none of the other clubs have followed this one's lead. Jury's still out about whether this one will keep or toss the new policy given the reaction.
Being a fan of HS baseball I was leaning one way before reading the article, now it's all the way. Mr Spiers is pompous and self centered man whos trying too hard to be that "renegade" in his approach IMHO
quote:Mike Spiers, the league's founders quote"
We're going to be unpopular with most high school coaches," Spiers said of the decision to go head-to-head. "The thing is, we're already unpopular. That's why they're making the demands. We're just going to create another option."
Choice is good. If club teams grow, there's more options for older players other than rec ball.
I don't know rz. It seems the HS governing body is trying to infringe on the travel program's influence on the kids. Why don't they just leave the status quo and both sides can exist.
Most travel programs do not infringe on the HS season or coaches. I have not heard of one give the ultimatum the s****r program mentioned above gave.
Most travel programs do not infringe on the HS season or coaches. I have not heard of one give the ultimatum the s****r program mentioned above gave.
We had some pretty long threads about this on the pre HS side of this site. I always thought it was just a matter of time before someone did it. If one does it, others will follow. There are teams in Arizona who play during the HS season and they are designed for the kids that didn't make the team in HS. A way to keep playing and improve for next years tryouts. It isn't much of a stretch for it to compete with HS. Maybe not now, but I think it will become more prevalent with so much weight being given to showcases with hundreds of scouts and HS games with maybe a few guys if there is a really hot prospect playing.
Things change.
Things change.
fills .... One of the top s****r programs on my side of the river doesn't like their players playing school ball. At one point they tried to prevent them from playing. The players played high school anyway. They do require players quit other sports. When I was approached about my son when he was eleven, they told him he's have to quit baseball. I had a good chuckle.quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
I don't know rz. It seems the HS governing body is trying to infringe on the travel program's influence on the kids. Why don't they just leave the status quo and both sides can exist.
Most travel programs do not infringe on the HS season or coaches. I have not heard of one give the ultimatum the s****r program mentioned above gave.
There's a softball program that told their players if they played school ball they would be cut. Not one played. The following year the girls were back playing high school.
The thing is these teams didn't have anyone to play during the school season. The coaches just feel school coaches screw up their talent. It's part of the arrogance that comes with some travel coaches knowing travel is the most likely avenue to the next level.
I believe any athlete not playing high school sports is missing out on the experience of representing the community. A thousand people don't show up to watch the Bombers play the Aces. You may see one thousand at districts or states when ABC High plays XYZ High.
Here are the two articles about FC Dallas and their no school s****r edict I mentioned about.
Exclusive club: FC Dallas Juniors forbid varsity play
Three Jesuit players leave FC Dallas Juniors
Exclusive club: FC Dallas Juniors forbid varsity play
Three Jesuit players leave FC Dallas Juniors
What happens in 5 yrs when this guy doesn't want to do this anymore and he effectively ruined some HS baseball programs?
When money is involved it is a slippery slope about pay to play.
Loyalty to school and community seem to be losing to what is best for me attitude. HS baseball may not be perfect but it does have many things that travel can not offer.
When money is involved it is a slippery slope about pay to play.
Loyalty to school and community seem to be losing to what is best for me attitude. HS baseball may not be perfect but it does have many things that travel can not offer.
quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
It seems the HS governing body is trying to infringe on the travel program's influence on the kids. Why don't they just leave the status quo and both sides can exist.
The article is misleading regarding the status quo. The California Interscholastic Federation is split into 10 sections. Only the Southern Section has had this rule, and dropping it simply brings them into alignment with the rest of California. In the rest of the state there has been some friction between a few HS and travel coaches, but nobody had until now tried to set up a separate club league to compete in the HS baseball season.
There is a clear difference between organizations which set team boundaries according to geography (e.g. most rec leagues and high schools) and those which roughly set boundaries according to player capability. I think that both approaches have merit and value to players. Geographically based teams offer the sense of community and the need to function in whatever circumstances the local organization provides. Capability based teams can offer a player flexibility and probably a superior environment to learn pure baseball skills (as opposed to life skills).
My prediction is that for the foreseeable future, a club league which takes place during the HS season will carry the aura of second tier players-- the ones who couldn't play well enough to make the HS team.
I don't give this new league much of a chance.
I think it'll be tough to establish a legitimate "in season club team" with kids that were cut or dissatisified with the HS experience. THe new club team might even encourage competing club coaches to have better relationships with the HS coach and vice-versa
Additionally, I imagine it will be tough for the new league to arrange practices to improve the play of these kids..........as most of the HS coaches have all the decent ball fields tied up. Where will they practice? The blacktop?
I think it'll be tough to establish a legitimate "in season club team" with kids that were cut or dissatisified with the HS experience. THe new club team might even encourage competing club coaches to have better relationships with the HS coach and vice-versa
Additionally, I imagine it will be tough for the new league to arrange practices to improve the play of these kids..........as most of the HS coaches have all the decent ball fields tied up. Where will they practice? The blacktop?
You could probably put together a pretty good team in southern cal from players who are ineligible due to grades or other issues. Kids who just want a shot at the pros. Or maybe kids that play at a bad baseball school and they want some more competition. All it takes is someone to start something, have some success, and you will get copycats. Once the idea is out, it will be copied by others. It can fail many times. All it takes is one success story. Remember, national showcases were unknown not too long ago.
It may not be long before the High School coaches need the club teams to develop their young players (and actually admit it).
Volusia County (Daytona Beach area)cancelled JV baseball this year, and Orange County (Orlando) is talking about that for next year if not cancelling all sports.
So with no JV team where are they to play? Will the HS coaches actually be forced to acknowledge the need for these teams?
Should be interesting.
Volusia County (Daytona Beach area)cancelled JV baseball this year, and Orange County (Orlando) is talking about that for next year if not cancelling all sports.
So with no JV team where are they to play? Will the HS coaches actually be forced to acknowledge the need for these teams?
Should be interesting.
We've had groups try to establish spring leagues of players cut from the HS team here for the last couple of years.
I was contacted by a former Area Scout last week about the possibility of doing a league like this.
The concept of competing against the HS programs is new and kinda ballsy IMO. Quite frankly, I don't think I could ever support it.
Just an aside note, Mr. Spiers is also the West Coast Director for Perfect Game.
I'd like to hear PG Staff weigh in on this.
I was contacted by a former Area Scout last week about the possibility of doing a league like this.
The concept of competing against the HS programs is new and kinda ballsy IMO. Quite frankly, I don't think I could ever support it.
Just an aside note, Mr. Spiers is also the West Coast Director for Perfect Game.
I'd like to hear PG Staff weigh in on this.
Tigercub,
I would think it would be very difficult for a travel coach to hurt a GOOD HS baseball program. A bad one, will just be a little worse.
I would think it would be very difficult for a travel coach to hurt a GOOD HS baseball program. A bad one, will just be a little worse.
Doughnut,
You may be right, but if top players from bad programs leave thus making HS baseball in the area a little worse, maybe the better players from good programs leave for better competition.
JMO
You may be right, but if top players from bad programs leave thus making HS baseball in the area a little worse, maybe the better players from good programs leave for better competition.
JMO
About 45 miles north of me the middle schools do not have baseball. A few of the better high school program's booster clubs are helping fund 13U and 14U travel teams.quote:It may not be long before the High School coaches need the club teams to develop their young players (and actually admit it).
Doughnutman;
We started the Area Code games in 1987, because there was a "void".
We did not charge the players and I coordinate with the pro scouts to select players.
There maybe a "need or not" for what Mike is trying to accomplish. He will learn from this pioneering venture to adjust. I wish him the best.
Bob Williams
We started the Area Code games in 1987, because there was a "void".
We did not charge the players and I coordinate with the pro scouts to select players.
There maybe a "need or not" for what Mike is trying to accomplish. He will learn from this pioneering venture to adjust. I wish him the best.
Bob Williams
quote:Just an aside note, Mr. Spiers is also the West Coast Director for Perfect Game.
I'd like to hear PG Staff weigh in on this.
To be honest I don't know enough about this to make an intelligent comment.
I will say... I support high school baseball. I also think high school baseball should support other baseball programs.
We will be following this closely. If the idea is to destroy high school baseball, we will never be involved. That doesn't necessarily mean we would be against what Mike Spiers is trying to accomplish.
In Southern California there are many players. They still need to play against the best possible competition when ever possible. That won't happen during the high school season unless the entire country avoids high school baseball. I don't see this becoming popular throughout the country. At least not in the near future.
It appears that there are a lot of HS coaches in California dictating what their players can and can not do during the off season. Not saying that what Mike's doing is the answer, but someone needs to make a stand. High School coaches are extremely important, but they don't own the kids they coach.
Need to add... High School coaches aren't any different than players or any other coaches... Some are good... Some are bad! If all they care about is there corner of the world, they are among the bad. As great as high school baseball can be, there is much more involved in the game of baseball.
Several years ago on here I asked if this was coming...predicted it probably was. Many called me nuts (more or less) for asking the question.
Now here we are...for whatever reason? I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just sad that we're here.
HS baseball (like HS football) to me is part of the fabric of America. Please, PLEASE I hope it does not head the way of s-o-c-c-e-r.
I want to watch my (yet unborn) grandkids play HS football and HS baseball some day. I hope it won't be reduced to a pile of rubble in the scrap yard by then.
Now here we are...for whatever reason? I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just sad that we're here.
HS baseball (like HS football) to me is part of the fabric of America. Please, PLEASE I hope it does not head the way of s-o-c-c-e-r.
I want to watch my (yet unborn) grandkids play HS football and HS baseball some day. I hope it won't be reduced to a pile of rubble in the scrap yard by then.
justbaseball,
I remember you bringing that up. I sincerely hope my grandkids play high school baseball, too. It's a very special thing!
I remember you bringing that up. I sincerely hope my grandkids play high school baseball, too. It's a very special thing!
It just seems that the old notion of community baseball is getting lost - and I think that is just a shame.
In many ways we are losing the "town" leagues that I believe were responsible for the great love affair between America and baseball. Everyone played the game as children - and grew to appreciate the finer points of the game as only a player can do.
Growing up, one of the local highlights of the summer was the Fourth of July baseball games between two small towns in central california. Huge BBQ pits and 2 games between the two towns.
Literally hundreds, sometimes over a thousand people (in a area with a population of no more than 10,000) would turn out to enjoy the BBQ and watch the games. 10 AM would be the minor champs from the two leagues and after that was the major league champs game.
Being the starting pitcher in that game was awesome. I remember, as I warmed up, a older gentleman coming over and wishing me luck. "Johnny Sain's my name - happy to meet you" (Yes that Johnny Sain). I remember running out to the mound, looking around the field and seeing that every bit of the fence had someone standing behind it - sometimes 5 deep. All there to watch me and my team. (gulp)
Those games are gone now... and we are lucky when the parents to come to their children's games. High school games are only a little better - perhaps drawing a 100 fans to a normal game, only the big rivalry game / senior day drawing anywhere close to what I saw as a 12 YO peaking out under my Lions hat.
Yes travel ball creates opportunity for players to test their skills against other better players - but when the good players are all gone, who remains to play the local games? And where will the next generation of fans come from?
In many ways we are losing the "town" leagues that I believe were responsible for the great love affair between America and baseball. Everyone played the game as children - and grew to appreciate the finer points of the game as only a player can do.
Growing up, one of the local highlights of the summer was the Fourth of July baseball games between two small towns in central california. Huge BBQ pits and 2 games between the two towns.
Literally hundreds, sometimes over a thousand people (in a area with a population of no more than 10,000) would turn out to enjoy the BBQ and watch the games. 10 AM would be the minor champs from the two leagues and after that was the major league champs game.
Being the starting pitcher in that game was awesome. I remember, as I warmed up, a older gentleman coming over and wishing me luck. "Johnny Sain's my name - happy to meet you" (Yes that Johnny Sain). I remember running out to the mound, looking around the field and seeing that every bit of the fence had someone standing behind it - sometimes 5 deep. All there to watch me and my team. (gulp)
Those games are gone now... and we are lucky when the parents to come to their children's games. High school games are only a little better - perhaps drawing a 100 fans to a normal game, only the big rivalry game / senior day drawing anywhere close to what I saw as a 12 YO peaking out under my Lions hat.
Yes travel ball creates opportunity for players to test their skills against other better players - but when the good players are all gone, who remains to play the local games? And where will the next generation of fans come from?
08Dad,
I can relate to that. We still have those type town leagues in Iowa. Former college players and old pros playing for small towns in Eastern Iowa.
Also, we run an Iowa Spring and Fall Wood Bat League here for the top high school kids. (Iowa's High School season is played in the summer rather than the spring)
We have played those games all over the state including the bigger colleges, best professional parks and in the biggest cities. The crowd was normally some parents and the rest were scouts.
One year we played a double header in Bancroft, Iowa. Bancroft is a farming community in northern Iowa with a population around 700 people or so. They had an old time ball field with "chicken wire" backstop and old rickety stands.
I got there right at game time and walked by a big barbeque pit that had a half block line waiting for food. When I got to the grandstands there were no seats available. There had to be well over a thousand people there. It was insane how much these people enjoyed baseball. The old timers told me it was like that everytime a game was played. What a great experience!
I can relate to that. We still have those type town leagues in Iowa. Former college players and old pros playing for small towns in Eastern Iowa.
Also, we run an Iowa Spring and Fall Wood Bat League here for the top high school kids. (Iowa's High School season is played in the summer rather than the spring)
We have played those games all over the state including the bigger colleges, best professional parks and in the biggest cities. The crowd was normally some parents and the rest were scouts.
One year we played a double header in Bancroft, Iowa. Bancroft is a farming community in northern Iowa with a population around 700 people or so. They had an old time ball field with "chicken wire" backstop and old rickety stands.
I got there right at game time and walked by a big barbeque pit that had a half block line waiting for food. When I got to the grandstands there were no seats available. There had to be well over a thousand people there. It was insane how much these people enjoyed baseball. The old timers told me it was like that everytime a game was played. What a great experience!
I just wanted to let you know that the Spring League that is being organized is something that we didn't want to do.
Here are reasons why we did it.....
*California budget cuts, it looks like that there will be a good chance for 2010 spring seasont that we will no longer have Freshman & JV Baseball. They will be cut do to the economic situation we are going through. Starting in May there are some school districts will not be paid for work but by IOU's. This is because the state has run out of money. The teachers will be paid when the state gets enough money. Some districts will be using reserves to pay their teachers until money comes in. So it is always the athletic budgets that get cut.
*There have been several players that play baseball that have been cut from high school programs. So a void is needed.
*Schools are charging high amounts for money to play baseball for the school programs. I know of one school that has charged their players $1,500.00 to play for the spring season. That didn't include the fund raising that they have been involved in through the past year. Which I was informed they they were required to get sponsors of a minimum of $500 on top of the $1,500. The average amount for fees to play high school in our area is at around $600 to $800 on average.
*Some schools have let it be known that they will no longer be allowed to play with club teams during the off season, not allowed to attend showcases, attend college camps and as well as play for MLB Scout teams in the Fall. This is something that has happened due to the Association Rule that was past this past year.
*There have been several club programs that have shut down with the new rule change. Our program has continued to grow as a few others. This has only been this way because of the 6 to 10 players that were left without teams need a place to play during the summer/fall.
*There was a player that was a UC Riverside commit dropped to the JV team because he attended a PG Showcase event.
*Another player cut from a high school because he didn't meet the minumum amount of games during the Fall and was let go. This was due to that he was on a scout team.
*A RHP was cut as a Senior this year because he didn't go to the off season program that the high school coach wanted him to attend. He was attending a different speed training program.
*There are many JC players who are redshirting and don't have a place to play games. This offers a way for them to play during the Spring season until the summer comes up.
We are not looking to replace high schools. But through the years here in So Cal, there has been a situation with high schools that worked well with the club teams during the off season. We rather of that continued, but we feel we wanted to protect the club teams to continue to play for the summer/fall season. We feel that high school has a place and dont' want anything to happen to the high schools. But the fact is that we have a very large population base of baseball players here in So Cal with some schools having a large amount of players on their rosters.
Since the economy has become a problem, what would happen is that players here in So Cal would just pick up and move and change their residence to become elgible to play. But since the economy is the way it is, that is almost impossible except for the people that have the resources to do so.
There are some very good high school programs here and I have good relationships with them. They don't see this as an assault on them, but have supported what we are doing. We have set up games at some high schools that are here in our area. There have been several schools sending players our way. One school in particular had to cut some players because they have so many players going to school there that they didn't have enough room for them. They are players that should be able to play college, but because they have 2 to 3 games a week. That would leave them without enough playing time. It is a school that is private and is very good to begin with.
I know of a high profile high school here that is private that were only going to keep 15 Freshman. 9 Freshman were players that were scholarshiped. That mean't they only kept 6 Freshman players that were not scholarshiped. We had several of the Freshman players come out for a workout that were cut. The ones that came out were pretty good and one of them we were able to place on a scout team for this Fall and he was a player that was cut.
I know from what I have read that there are some upset people and without really knowing what is happening here you should learn of what is exactly happening first with how things are here.
Here are reasons why we did it.....
*California budget cuts, it looks like that there will be a good chance for 2010 spring seasont that we will no longer have Freshman & JV Baseball. They will be cut do to the economic situation we are going through. Starting in May there are some school districts will not be paid for work but by IOU's. This is because the state has run out of money. The teachers will be paid when the state gets enough money. Some districts will be using reserves to pay their teachers until money comes in. So it is always the athletic budgets that get cut.
*There have been several players that play baseball that have been cut from high school programs. So a void is needed.
*Schools are charging high amounts for money to play baseball for the school programs. I know of one school that has charged their players $1,500.00 to play for the spring season. That didn't include the fund raising that they have been involved in through the past year. Which I was informed they they were required to get sponsors of a minimum of $500 on top of the $1,500. The average amount for fees to play high school in our area is at around $600 to $800 on average.
*Some schools have let it be known that they will no longer be allowed to play with club teams during the off season, not allowed to attend showcases, attend college camps and as well as play for MLB Scout teams in the Fall. This is something that has happened due to the Association Rule that was past this past year.
*There have been several club programs that have shut down with the new rule change. Our program has continued to grow as a few others. This has only been this way because of the 6 to 10 players that were left without teams need a place to play during the summer/fall.
*There was a player that was a UC Riverside commit dropped to the JV team because he attended a PG Showcase event.
*Another player cut from a high school because he didn't meet the minumum amount of games during the Fall and was let go. This was due to that he was on a scout team.
*A RHP was cut as a Senior this year because he didn't go to the off season program that the high school coach wanted him to attend. He was attending a different speed training program.
*There are many JC players who are redshirting and don't have a place to play games. This offers a way for them to play during the Spring season until the summer comes up.
We are not looking to replace high schools. But through the years here in So Cal, there has been a situation with high schools that worked well with the club teams during the off season. We rather of that continued, but we feel we wanted to protect the club teams to continue to play for the summer/fall season. We feel that high school has a place and dont' want anything to happen to the high schools. But the fact is that we have a very large population base of baseball players here in So Cal with some schools having a large amount of players on their rosters.
Since the economy has become a problem, what would happen is that players here in So Cal would just pick up and move and change their residence to become elgible to play. But since the economy is the way it is, that is almost impossible except for the people that have the resources to do so.
There are some very good high school programs here and I have good relationships with them. They don't see this as an assault on them, but have supported what we are doing. We have set up games at some high schools that are here in our area. There have been several schools sending players our way. One school in particular had to cut some players because they have so many players going to school there that they didn't have enough room for them. They are players that should be able to play college, but because they have 2 to 3 games a week. That would leave them without enough playing time. It is a school that is private and is very good to begin with.
I know of a high profile high school here that is private that were only going to keep 15 Freshman. 9 Freshman were players that were scholarshiped. That mean't they only kept 6 Freshman players that were not scholarshiped. We had several of the Freshman players come out for a workout that were cut. The ones that came out were pretty good and one of them we were able to place on a scout team for this Fall and he was a player that was cut.
I know from what I have read that there are some upset people and without really knowing what is happening here you should learn of what is exactly happening first with how things are here.
ABD, that was a very good read. It sounds to me like California needs to pare high school baseball back to what it is intended to be.. a Spring sport.. and let club teams do their thing in the Summer and Fall. That's what we do here. H.S. baseball is just 20 games with playoffs, then club teams play 50-60 games. Fall baseball (ironically when we have our best weather) is essentially scout/showcase baseball.. maybe 15 games. When Bum, Jr. was in high school I had to do some creative scheduling to make sure he played 90+ games each year.
Some of these kids in California play 120+ games a year, which IMHO is insane. $1500 for h.s. baseball? My kids paid $100. $1500, and you're expected to play Spring, Summer and Fall? That is not h.s. baseball, that's de facto club baseball, and it appears to me they need a healthy dose of competition.
Some of these kids in California play 120+ games a year, which IMHO is insane. $1500 for h.s. baseball? My kids paid $100. $1500, and you're expected to play Spring, Summer and Fall? That is not h.s. baseball, that's de facto club baseball, and it appears to me they need a healthy dose of competition.
Good luck Bulldog. Some reasons for and against the issue on a thread that I started. It is a long read.
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6206007535/m/4231042692
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6206007535/m/4231042692
Thank goodness we don't live in So Cal, 1500 dollars to play school ball? We pay &75.00 per sport, get 20 games, a real bargin.
This was the memo that was sent out to approximately 65 players who are rostered on this particular high school team.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Parents,
Please have all Adds Due in TODAY!! I will not accept any late adds.
Also, Donations Items are DUE TODAY. I will be in my office until 2:30 Today, so please drop them off.
This is Mandatory for all families to participate. If you choose not to do so,
Your son will not be allowed to play in the Winter League and there commitment will have to be re-evaluated in our program.
Coach ***
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FOLLOWUP MESSAGE
January 23rd THIS FRIDAY ALL ads and banners are due to the cashier with payment. Anything NOT turned in by this date, will not get credit towards your participation
ALSO THIS FRIDAY all donation items are due for our fundraiser. Keep in mind Coach *** made this mandatory for all families. As of today we only have 31 families that have turned something in. That is less than 1/2. Please get these items this Friday. You are welcome to pool your resources with another family.
January 30th ALL PAPERWORK IS DUE ~ VERY IMPORTANT ~ Your son will not be able to play this season if his paperwork is not turned in.
February 2nd ~ $1500 participation is due to the cashier ~ again ~ if fees are not paid the school will not allow Coach *** to play your son.
February 12th ~ First pitch meeting. this meeting is for all families and we encourage you to have at least 1 parent from each family present. Coach *** will be going over a lot of information.
February 16th ~ 1st official day of practice 10 AM to 4 PM
Mark your calendars for these days. I have attached a copy of our booster board members. Please refer to the appropriate person with your questions.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Parents,
Please have all Adds Due in TODAY!! I will not accept any late adds.
Also, Donations Items are DUE TODAY. I will be in my office until 2:30 Today, so please drop them off.
This is Mandatory for all families to participate. If you choose not to do so,
Your son will not be allowed to play in the Winter League and there commitment will have to be re-evaluated in our program.
Coach ***
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FOLLOWUP MESSAGE
January 23rd THIS FRIDAY ALL ads and banners are due to the cashier with payment. Anything NOT turned in by this date, will not get credit towards your participation
ALSO THIS FRIDAY all donation items are due for our fundraiser. Keep in mind Coach *** made this mandatory for all families. As of today we only have 31 families that have turned something in. That is less than 1/2. Please get these items this Friday. You are welcome to pool your resources with another family.
January 30th ALL PAPERWORK IS DUE ~ VERY IMPORTANT ~ Your son will not be able to play this season if his paperwork is not turned in.
February 2nd ~ $1500 participation is due to the cashier ~ again ~ if fees are not paid the school will not allow Coach *** to play your son.
February 12th ~ First pitch meeting. this meeting is for all families and we encourage you to have at least 1 parent from each family present. Coach *** will be going over a lot of information.
February 16th ~ 1st official day of practice 10 AM to 4 PM
Mark your calendars for these days. I have attached a copy of our booster board members. Please refer to the appropriate person with your questions.
High school baseball is expensive. Between the participation fees and the mandatory booster club costs, ads and other miscellaneous costs, it adds up over 4 years. All that for a 20-25 game season.
As for the decline in attending games, the reason is baseball plays weekdays at 3:30-4:00PM start times. Most peeps work that time and with both parents working hese days, they don't get to see any games.
I would have liked 7:00PM starts. Wouldn't have missed so many of son's high school games.
If games started later, parents could make games and more of the locals might come out to a high school baseball game but since they start during school hours and play into rush hour, peeps aren't gonna catch games and certainly aren't gonna take off from work to watch a game.
If baseball could be played under lights and start at 6-7PM like football or basketball, you would get more support at the games but those start times are unlikely to ever happen since most high school fields have no lights and with school budgets and putting most of the money in athletics into the football programs, baseball fields won't be getting lights for night games.
As for the decline in attending games, the reason is baseball plays weekdays at 3:30-4:00PM start times. Most peeps work that time and with both parents working hese days, they don't get to see any games.
I would have liked 7:00PM starts. Wouldn't have missed so many of son's high school games.
If games started later, parents could make games and more of the locals might come out to a high school baseball game but since they start during school hours and play into rush hour, peeps aren't gonna catch games and certainly aren't gonna take off from work to watch a game.
If baseball could be played under lights and start at 6-7PM like football or basketball, you would get more support at the games but those start times are unlikely to ever happen since most high school fields have no lights and with school budgets and putting most of the money in athletics into the football programs, baseball fields won't be getting lights for night games.
we have not had a "user fee" in my community, yet. with the economy being what it is it's in the future. for all extra activity's, band ,cheering ,sports, etc.
this concept that's happening in california is difficult for me to grasp. we don't have the numbers that you do.most town's have one high school that average 1500 kids.
i can't see this situation of travel ball happening here. after reading abd's post i do understand the goal. we average 3-5 kids playing in college, and we have a pretty competitive baseball program.
it's a big world out there.
this concept that's happening in california is difficult for me to grasp. we don't have the numbers that you do.most town's have one high school that average 1500 kids.
i can't see this situation of travel ball happening here. after reading abd's post i do understand the goal. we average 3-5 kids playing in college, and we have a pretty competitive baseball program.
it's a big world out there.
[/QUOTE]fills .... One of the top s****r programs on my side of the river doesn't like their players playing school ball. At one point they tried to prevent them from playing. The players played high school anyway. They do require players quit other sports. When I was approached about my son when he was eleven, they told him he's have to quit baseball. I had a good chuckle.
There's a softball program that told their players if they played school ball they would be cut. Not one played. The following year the girls were back playing high school.
The thing is these teams didn't have anyone to play during the school season. The coaches just feel school coaches screw up their talent. It's part of the arrogance that comes with some travel coaches knowing travel is the most likely avenue to the next level.
I believe any athlete not playing high school sports is missing out on the experience of representing the community. A thousand people don't show up to watch the Bombers play the Aces. You may see one thousand at districts or states when ABC High plays XYZ High.[/QUOTE]
RJM,
I should have said travel "baseball" programs. I do believe some s****r programs have made this request in this area also.
I believe HS baseball is important and I think both sides should be able to coexist. Travel can actually help school ball. Travel players get better playing better competition in the summer. This leaves spots open on legion teams for kids who might not make the team if the travel kids stayed home. Thus developing these kids more for the HS team in the spring.
There's a softball program that told their players if they played school ball they would be cut. Not one played. The following year the girls were back playing high school.
The thing is these teams didn't have anyone to play during the school season. The coaches just feel school coaches screw up their talent. It's part of the arrogance that comes with some travel coaches knowing travel is the most likely avenue to the next level.
I believe any athlete not playing high school sports is missing out on the experience of representing the community. A thousand people don't show up to watch the Bombers play the Aces. You may see one thousand at districts or states when ABC High plays XYZ High.[/QUOTE]
RJM,
I should have said travel "baseball" programs. I do believe some s****r programs have made this request in this area also.
I believe HS baseball is important and I think both sides should be able to coexist. Travel can actually help school ball. Travel players get better playing better competition in the summer. This leaves spots open on legion teams for kids who might not make the team if the travel kids stayed home. Thus developing these kids more for the HS team in the spring.
I think this might be OK if the club teams work with the HS coaches. Maybe what they can do is require a "release" from the HS coach or school in order to play. In other words, players would need some kind of proof that they could not play on the HS team whether it be due to being cut, or grades or no 9th grade or JV team or what ever. This would take away the fear that some coaches may have that this club team is going to steal their better players.
Around here, the travel teams do not start until after the HS season is over. Even Triple Crown and USSSA do not host any tournaments until after the HS season for 15 and up.
Around here, the travel teams do not start until after the HS season is over. Even Triple Crown and USSSA do not host any tournaments until after the HS season for 15 and up.
I can echo 20Dads comments. I live in the second largest city in NH. We have 3 high schools two public and 1 Catholic. As of now there are no users fee. However it seems that with the economy the way it is the middle school teams will be lost in 2010 budget (Thankfully my son is an 8th grader this year and will be a freshman in the high School next year). If more cuts come then then either user fees or freshman/JV sports could be next.
But as it stands now High School sports still do not have user fees. Also Travel teams work around the high School season. High School baseball is the king in these parts. Of course it is only a spring season here, no summer or fall programs, that is where the travel teams come in. Babe Ruth and Legion are still going strong too.
New England isn't a baseball hotbed like California either, as 20Dad stated a good team here has 3-5 kids go off to play college ball.
But as it stands now High School sports still do not have user fees. Also Travel teams work around the high School season. High School baseball is the king in these parts. Of course it is only a spring season here, no summer or fall programs, that is where the travel teams come in. Babe Ruth and Legion are still going strong too.
New England isn't a baseball hotbed like California either, as 20Dad stated a good team here has 3-5 kids go off to play college ball.
Just so California doesn't get lumped all together, I wanted to share our area's baseball situation.
We are part of the SoCal section, but we are on the outskirts in a less populated area. There is only one travel/scout team within a one hour drive. There is no clash between travel and HS Ball or even local rec. leagues and HS Ball. Everyone works together on scheduling the various leagues, and most baseball players also play another sport or two. My son's baseball coach encourages multiple sports, as do his other sport's coaches.
The kids pay a little bit for sports and fundraise a little bit for sports, but it is basically paying for uniforms ($100-300 per sport). Although we have the same rules as the "LA/SD" part of SoCal, there are no year round committments to one sport that affect your ability get a fair tryout for that sport. The school administrators will step in if this is happening and put an end to it.
I am disappointed that the populated areas have become the way they are, but that is what happens when too many people are vying for the too few spots. It encourages focusing on one sport very early, paying way too much money towards that sport, and schools becoming so geared toward winning that they forget that baseball is a game. Once you start paying for something in time and money, it becomes too much of a business, not enough of a game.
Ask any pro baseball player for their advice to a young player, and they will say to enjoy the game of baseball while it is still fun and not a job/business. I would hope that those "fun" years would include high school baseball, but it seems that may be disappearing in some areas.
We are part of the SoCal section, but we are on the outskirts in a less populated area. There is only one travel/scout team within a one hour drive. There is no clash between travel and HS Ball or even local rec. leagues and HS Ball. Everyone works together on scheduling the various leagues, and most baseball players also play another sport or two. My son's baseball coach encourages multiple sports, as do his other sport's coaches.
The kids pay a little bit for sports and fundraise a little bit for sports, but it is basically paying for uniforms ($100-300 per sport). Although we have the same rules as the "LA/SD" part of SoCal, there are no year round committments to one sport that affect your ability get a fair tryout for that sport. The school administrators will step in if this is happening and put an end to it.
I am disappointed that the populated areas have become the way they are, but that is what happens when too many people are vying for the too few spots. It encourages focusing on one sport very early, paying way too much money towards that sport, and schools becoming so geared toward winning that they forget that baseball is a game. Once you start paying for something in time and money, it becomes too much of a business, not enough of a game.
Ask any pro baseball player for their advice to a young player, and they will say to enjoy the game of baseball while it is still fun and not a job/business. I would hope that those "fun" years would include high school baseball, but it seems that may be disappearing in some areas.
I just read this thread today. It will destroy HS baseball as we know it today. It's sad this discussion is even taking place. Oh it won't happen overnight and won't touch EVERY program but rest assured it WILL impact HS baseball in a very BAD way! We'll look back and ask ---"what happened to High School baseball?" It's basically $$$ vs. tradition.
You get caught in a vicious cycle. I'll give you an example. Private schools vs public schools ---- especially here in the SE USA. As private schools lure the children of the more involved and concerned families, along with that child goes the parental support (and $$$). You start to see a decline in the level of education in the public schools along with an increase in crime in the schools. As the public schools decline and crime increases it becomes MORE important for the "average" parents to pull their children out of public schools, leaving a terrible situation for the public schools. My son was educated and played sports in the public schools, graduating in 2002. I resisted the pleas to go to the private schools --- but gradually it has changed. My wife and I attended a HS football game last year at his public school and I commented there would be NO way I could send my son back to this school.
As better players are lured away from HS baseball programs you see active parents leave too. Active parents do a lot MORE for a baseball program than work concession stands and paint fences. They provide transportation for their kid and others, they discipline their children, they make sure their children study, they seek off season teams and instructions, they create websites and call newspapers demanding coverage, they talk baseball and promote the team, their kid garners attention from scouts and colleges. Bottom line they provide the necessary ingredients for a successful program. When the good players leave, all "that parental stuff" follows and the HS program is left with nothing more than a shell of a baseball program.
Fungo
You get caught in a vicious cycle. I'll give you an example. Private schools vs public schools ---- especially here in the SE USA. As private schools lure the children of the more involved and concerned families, along with that child goes the parental support (and $$$). You start to see a decline in the level of education in the public schools along with an increase in crime in the schools. As the public schools decline and crime increases it becomes MORE important for the "average" parents to pull their children out of public schools, leaving a terrible situation for the public schools. My son was educated and played sports in the public schools, graduating in 2002. I resisted the pleas to go to the private schools --- but gradually it has changed. My wife and I attended a HS football game last year at his public school and I commented there would be NO way I could send my son back to this school.
As better players are lured away from HS baseball programs you see active parents leave too. Active parents do a lot MORE for a baseball program than work concession stands and paint fences. They provide transportation for their kid and others, they discipline their children, they make sure their children study, they seek off season teams and instructions, they create websites and call newspapers demanding coverage, they talk baseball and promote the team, their kid garners attention from scouts and colleges. Bottom line they provide the necessary ingredients for a successful program. When the good players leave, all "that parental stuff" follows and the HS program is left with nothing more than a shell of a baseball program.
Fungo
fungo
i agree with you. i just can't see it happening in my community.or the state for that matter. we just don't have the numbers or the affordable private schools. plenty of $40,000 academy's,(in fact i think new england is the capital.)
do these town's really have too many GOOD baseball players that they get cut?
when i went to high school here in my town. we had 2500 kids in school. jr's and sr's played varsity,very seldom did a sophmore make a team. that's just the way it was,it must be really different today.
i agree with you. i just can't see it happening in my community.or the state for that matter. we just don't have the numbers or the affordable private schools. plenty of $40,000 academy's,(in fact i think new england is the capital.)
do these town's really have too many GOOD baseball players that they get cut?
when i went to high school here in my town. we had 2500 kids in school. jr's and sr's played varsity,very seldom did a sophmore make a team. that's just the way it was,it must be really different today.
Just to be clear the $1,500 cost is not the norm ANYWHERE in California. A sample of one does not make it so for all schools. The average cost for playing in HS in California is $100 at the lower end to $500 at the more wealthy schools. I know this since I did a study for our program to get an idea on what to charge. We charge $250 per kid in our program and no one will not play if they can not pay the fee. We find ways to cover their costs through fundraising.
I know one local program (private school) that is only going with a JV/Varsity team this year and not three.(They did this because of field availability issues) They are having the kids who did not make the team play in a local Sr League team set up for kids in the area who did not make their HS team.
ABD has a nice program and I am sure they do it because they love the game, but it is also there to generate income for the owners/coaches/etc. It’s great that they are setting up a program for kids who do not make their HS team. (or for some reason drop out) Three cheers for them, but IT WILL NOT REPLACE HS BASEBALL - period end of story.
Boys S****r is a fringe sport in the US and club s****r has developed because of this. It is unique and will not change HS baseball….IMLO.
So everyone can relax and go back to work......if you have job.
I know one local program (private school) that is only going with a JV/Varsity team this year and not three.(They did this because of field availability issues) They are having the kids who did not make the team play in a local Sr League team set up for kids in the area who did not make their HS team.
ABD has a nice program and I am sure they do it because they love the game, but it is also there to generate income for the owners/coaches/etc. It’s great that they are setting up a program for kids who do not make their HS team. (or for some reason drop out) Three cheers for them, but IT WILL NOT REPLACE HS BASEBALL - period end of story.
Boys S****r is a fringe sport in the US and club s****r has developed because of this. It is unique and will not change HS baseball….IMLO.
So everyone can relax and go back to work......if you have job.
This is a slippery slope that will not end well for High School Baseball.
The article says it is based on the fact that there are players cut and they need a place to play, but it also gave an example of where a top player was thinking about playing in the league. For now, it is a league for those who are cut from a team or does not have a team JV-Frosh, but it also caters to only certain set of players since it would be difficult to have a player attend school and go across town (metro-LA) to play games and work out on a on-going bases. It will cost the families much more as time goes on.
It will also go into a player who is or thinks he is a top player and is on a weak high school team and does not want to surround himself with less than top players, at that point it will grow to more than just a place to play. Will it go the way of Little League compared to elite travel ball?
High school baseball is only for 4 months in many parts of California except in Southern California where they can play all school year! In most parts of Northern California legal practice just started this week (other parts earlier, which is a whole different sore subject)! One thought of what is going wrong is the Southern Section of CIF opened it up to where some programs run a program all school year and some coaches want the players to exclusively play for them and possibly pay their fees.
The article says it is based on the fact that there are players cut and they need a place to play, but it also gave an example of where a top player was thinking about playing in the league. For now, it is a league for those who are cut from a team or does not have a team JV-Frosh, but it also caters to only certain set of players since it would be difficult to have a player attend school and go across town (metro-LA) to play games and work out on a on-going bases. It will cost the families much more as time goes on.
It will also go into a player who is or thinks he is a top player and is on a weak high school team and does not want to surround himself with less than top players, at that point it will grow to more than just a place to play. Will it go the way of Little League compared to elite travel ball?
High school baseball is only for 4 months in many parts of California except in Southern California where they can play all school year! In most parts of Northern California legal practice just started this week (other parts earlier, which is a whole different sore subject)! One thought of what is going wrong is the Southern Section of CIF opened it up to where some programs run a program all school year and some coaches want the players to exclusively play for them and possibly pay their fees.
There are many things driving this type of action by people. First of all I have never understood a HS coach thinking he had the right to determine where a kid played outside the HS season. What you should be concerned about baseball wise is making sure they were in the best situation for them. Some HS coaches put pressure on players to play for the HS summer team. Or HS summer Legion team. What the coach should be doing is helping the players find the right situation for them and stop trying to build his HS team in the off season by keeping them all together.
Jeolousy drives some of this as well. So does the feeling by some HS coaches that the player is not being loyal to his HS team by not playing with the HS team in the summer and fall. What about the loyalty to the player in helping him find the best place for his development? I never thought it would come to this but I think its going to flourish and continue to grow. With budget cuts and coaches that think they own players year round its only going to grow. Not to mention many HS programs coaching and programs are a joke compared to what they can get from outside programs.
Here in NC many school districts have eliminated Middle School sports and more are considering it at this time. How long is it going to be before some HS districts decide to eliminate HS sports as well? I dont know but there was a time when I would have said "No way this ever happens!" Now I am more inclined to say "Its only a matter of time before it does."
Jeolousy drives some of this as well. So does the feeling by some HS coaches that the player is not being loyal to his HS team by not playing with the HS team in the summer and fall. What about the loyalty to the player in helping him find the best place for his development? I never thought it would come to this but I think its going to flourish and continue to grow. With budget cuts and coaches that think they own players year round its only going to grow. Not to mention many HS programs coaching and programs are a joke compared to what they can get from outside programs.
Here in NC many school districts have eliminated Middle School sports and more are considering it at this time. How long is it going to be before some HS districts decide to eliminate HS sports as well? I dont know but there was a time when I would have said "No way this ever happens!" Now I am more inclined to say "Its only a matter of time before it does."
I haven't been posting and I don't plan to again for a bit longer but this is an important topic.
We haven't seen any real changes due to the association rule other than the coaches being on the field instead of in the stands and a bit longer practices at times.
More importantly, if you feel there's a conflict between scout ball, summer ball, showcases, etc., and the HS baseball program then talk to - don't confront - talk to the coach. Many times policies are put in place to prevent the whole team or whole pitching staff from missing a game and you'll find that if you talk to the coach that he'll be fine with a specific showcase or scout games, etc. as long as you arrange it ahead of time and give him a chance to make adjustments. Or possibly he might not be OK with one time but willing to make adjustments at another time.
Obviously, if you go ahead and blow off the HS program without checking it is going to be a strike against your player but most coaches will work with the players and families to do what is best for the player and the program.
We haven't seen any real changes due to the association rule other than the coaches being on the field instead of in the stands and a bit longer practices at times.
More importantly, if you feel there's a conflict between scout ball, summer ball, showcases, etc., and the HS baseball program then talk to - don't confront - talk to the coach. Many times policies are put in place to prevent the whole team or whole pitching staff from missing a game and you'll find that if you talk to the coach that he'll be fine with a specific showcase or scout games, etc. as long as you arrange it ahead of time and give him a chance to make adjustments. Or possibly he might not be OK with one time but willing to make adjustments at another time.
Obviously, if you go ahead and blow off the HS program without checking it is going to be a strike against your player but most coaches will work with the players and families to do what is best for the player and the program.