Do Kids Change?

As I've mentioned in previous posts, my son couldn't find a team at age 11 because he was told his arm was weak. He has been long-tossing nearly daily and working on his game since, and his arm is now his strongest tool. He has recently committed to pitch D1 baseball (LHP). I think it can be a powerful motivational tool when someone says you can't do something.

Very interesting post! In the direct circle of friends/ball players, they have not changed at all.

Like you I have seen these kids play ball 100s of times.

Sad part - I know of two kids with great potential who didnt work at the game and still dont......

Definitely. While some players get a bit better or worse, for the most part you watch the same traits over and over again.

Generally speaking I'd agree with you - but as much or more from the personality side than the skills side -- though I agree with that as well. Kids that were gamers still are, those that weren't as "gamer" still aren't.

Good post. I’ve seen many cases of what you are saying but that is the way it is. Players are different and we can’t (and shouldn’t) set one standard for the many different types of baseball players. I know this is hard to accept but it’s OK if a player doesn’t want to sacrifice things in his life to take his game to the next level. Every step up the ladder in baseball eliminates a large group of players for various reasons. Some players WANT to become the best they can be. They seek out quality instructions, practice in the off season, focus on getting better, and accept the challenges of the best teams and the toughest colleges in the nation. They thrive on these challenges. They improve. They LEARN how to do the things they need to do to take the game to the next level and move up. Other players may not have the physical talents to play at the next level or they may not want to make baseball more that a recreational sport. Some want to improve but can't and some can improve but won't. They usually quit playing (or are asked to quit) and simply do other things. Included in these players are the ones that cannot hit the curve ball or cannot run fast or has the weak arm. In sports no two players have the same physical talents and no two players put forth the same effort to improve. What may come easy for one player may be a huge challenge for another. One player may be obsessed with getting better and another may look at baseball as nothing more than fun and games. Thank goodness there is no established benchmark that defines the relationship between the game and the player.

What becomes more vexing is trying to understand why the highly talented player has no desire to take his game to the next level --- or watching the untalented player works his tail off attempting to take his game to the next level only to fall short.
Fungo

I think that the main reason why kids don't improve with the years is the poor knowledge of coaches at LL and HS, and the difficult for parents to get private teaching. If a player repeat his bad habit for decades, will be very difficult to correct then.
About arm, speed, good hands, ect...players can get better with hard work and practice, but mainly those are natural conditions.

I can't say that I can agree with the premise either. Some of the "studs" from the 9/10, 11/12YO all-stars have long since fallen by the wayside. Some of the kids who were "weaker" players are now playing at the top level of the game.

Heck, I have even seen a kid who wasn't considered much of a player as a HS sophomore develop and make all-district as a junior. He came on during his junior year like you wouldn't believe. Led his team in batting average, if I recall properly.

My son could barely hit the broad side of a barn when he was growing up. As a middle-infielder, his bat was definitely his weakest tool. That started to change around age 15, and his skills really ramped up at age 17 when he found an instructor who knew him and his particular strengths/weaknesses/needs like the back of his hand. His hitting ability is now on par with his fielding ability -- something we never thought we'd see.

I agree with the premise that some of the players still make the same mistakes, but some of them are environmental not physical. Most are still the same type of players, but their limitations were mental not physical.

My older son's contemporaries have covered the spectrum.

A little regarded pitcher who didn't leave his small town team until senior year, who threw 86 and was abused by his legion coach, has a great senior year in college, wins the era crown in DI, is drafted and is now playing pro baseball.

A light throwing small kid, gets a DI ride and is now the Friday starter heading into his senior year.

The three best athletes in the area, and 5 tool players, are working and playing beer league baseball.

The best player in his LL is now on trial for murder.

My take is that the one's who have success at a young age, have to have someone around them who inspires them to keep working and getting better. The game seems to come to easy to them at an early age, and they get a false sense of reality. The players who have to work at a young age, continue to work as they get older.

Talent and work ethic are the two most important tools.

.
OUTSTANDING thoughts, Fungo...

quote:

...Every step up the ladder in baseball eliminates a large group of players for various reasons.

....Some players WANT to become the best they can be. They seek out quality instructions, practice in the off season, focus on getting better, and accept the challenges of the best teams and the toughest colleges in the nation. They thrive on these challenges. They improve. They LEARN how to do the things they need to do to take the game to the next level and move up.

...Other players may not have the physical talents to play at the next level...or they may not want to make baseball more that a recreational sport. Some want to improve but can't and some can improve but won't....

...In sports no two players have the same physical talents and no two players put forth the same effort to improve. What may come easy for one player may be a huge challenge for another. One player may be obsessed with getting better and another may look at baseball as nothing more than fun and games. Thank goodness there is no established benchmark that defines the relationship between the game and the player.

What becomes more vexing is trying to understand why the highly talented player has no desire to take his game to the next level --- or watching the untalented player works his tail off attempting to take his game to the next level...

...only to fall short.

44
.

Speaking from my experience with my son who went Division I , I can say this---he wanted it because he wanted to prove he could do it and not just be a stud at a lower Division


The ones who go on need to have the DRIVE and DESIRE--- for me those two assets are the difference makers and not being afraid to fail because those that succeed don't think they can fail

In general the premise is probably true but not 100% acroos the board. I have seen several athletes step it up a notch. One even got drafted in the 2nd rd after being cut from local AAA city team and not standing out in HS.
There are awlways exceptions to the rule. I also think that most studs at early years do dissappear while some that struggle succeed.

I have personally seen young kids who were not among the best (at the time) turn out to be the very best and most successful of their group.

IMO, those with strong arms, good hands, etc., will continue having those traits, without injury. But some of those who didn't show those traits at a younger age do develop them. Sometimes surpassing their peers.

There is natural ability, there is hidden ability, and there is developed ability. Those who end up the very best might have all three.

Oh- PGStaff - I sent you a PM on another topic.

Rob,
Those are very interesting observations and a wonderful question.
If you look at progress/changes from little league to high school, I can understand how you could arrive at the assessment you do.
In my view, the way the game is played in college and beyond dictates that most players change and adjust, or they just cannot compete. Admittedly there are extremely talented players to whom that does not apply.
From what I have seen, you hardly even recognize most players and the way they are playing when they are 19/20 as compared to the way they played when they were 16/17. The talent with which the game is played after high school and the speed of the game after high school, in my view, forces most to change and adjust their approach and skills to continue to succeed. To turn this around, if a player is trying to play the game at 19/20 with the same approach they did when they were 17/18, most either will be struggling mightily or realizing they cannot play.

Rob,
Good topic.

About 10-11 years ago when everyone of my son's teammates were having pitching and hitting lessons we were told not to do anything with him.Let his natural ability and instincts, desires work, don't try to change anything. We followed that advice. But that doesn't mean it would be the best advice for others.

I have seen so many players take lessons after lessons to improve, play on the best teams, go to the fanciest camps, and never reach what some many think is their potential. Is this because there comes a point where whatever you do will not make him a better player?

I have also seen many players grow up and reach their potential after the HS experience, with good coaching in college or in pro ball. Many players who never seemed to be even a pro potential become a first rounder, surprising many that they never thought he was "that good".

I have see too many parents push their players to be more than they might ever be, sometimes it works out well other times it doesn't. Most young players have no idea what it is to "reach the next level". Parents that put their own desires aside for what their children really want usually find that their children grow up and become smart and will move to that next level successfully, if they want to. Yes, kids do change, and those that are pushed to their limit too often lose the desire and those that are allowed to play and have fun surprisingly move ahead. As PG states, some move ahead on natural ability, some on hidden ability (physical and mental maturation) and some on developed ability.

I have to agree with CD, you can't make generalizations because all players are different and all players progress and grasp things differentely. And all players have different desires mature differently.

And I agree with infielddad, how the game is played after HS forces players to make adjustments that will move them ahead or not move them ahead.

There was a topic about not where you begin but where you end up.

Yes I do see many of the things mentioned here. I have also witnessed kids who were rarely used as pitchers in Little League become great pitchers at the HS level. My son has always been motivated to work harder than everyone else since he is a late bloomer. He still has the hardest work ethic than any kid on his HighSchool team, this isn't a bias opinion either. I have seen the talented mature kids reach their peak at 14 and give up baseball because they didn't work hard enough. Only two kids from my son's Little League team are currently playing organized ball.

Some kids change for the better and some kids change for the worse. One kid in particular was the best Little Leaguer and was always told he was the best and never really worked hard at practices. Fast forward today and he was kicked off his team for disciplinary reasons and grades. HE was never told that he was doing things the wrong way, well it caught up to him.

What I do like to see are all those kids in Little League who played RF and got one at bat become studs in HighSchool. I have spotted a few and they outworked the so called All Stars in baseball and in life.

Nice posts in this thread.

Do kids change? It is largely a question of perspective. It's often easier to recognize tendencies because the mind is predisposed to see them. Changes, and especially subtle ones, are harder to recognize because they're not anticipated. The more cynical we get, the more invisible the progression becomes.

Can kids change? Lots of variables here, but Jerry's point that there are different kinds of abilities is well-taken. Some HS studs stop playing because they lack the ability to adjust, or like TPM noted they get pushed too hard and lose desire.

As infielddad says, after high school it's much more apparent that kids have to step up their game to compete. Yes kids change.

Rob
Darn it! You made me think and I don't like to do that on Fridays. After rehashing years of baseball around in my peanut brain, my experience is similar to yours. I will say, many many more kids have fallen by the wayside and very few have gone from average to stud. I suppose, as Fungo stated, its a natural progression up the ladder.