Do Scouts value HS baseball enough for a player to toil In a bad program

His HS program won’t matter much to College coaches or pro scouts. 

His baseball tools will matter. 

And how he performs at top showcases, e.g., PG, will matter. 

I’ll add that IMHO kids should play for their HS. Not doing so will raise questions. 

Recruiting coordinators  and pro ball scouts don't really care about HS ball stats......but a red flag goes up if they DIDN'T play HS ball. Your son doesn't want to be 'That Guy' . It creates suspicion and can make your son look like a tourney kid who is an 'I guy'

He's a baseball player and he attends High School.  So, keep it simple.......Play on your High School team

Branson Baseball posted:

I’ll add that IMHO kids should play for their HS. Not doing so will raise questions. 

Thanks for the advice.  

Welcome to the site!

Disclaimer... I'm a HS coach.

If he is as well connected and talented as it sounds, it most likely won't matter in his college recruiting process and any pro interest.  But, as others said, it might.  Still, to me, that's not a reason to decide to continue playing HS baseball.  If his HS program is only one step back from his summer program, that's not that bad, really.  I guess I'd have to hear just how bad.  Only you and he know the specifics.  Does he have his HS friends playing on the HS team?   Is he putting off the "i'm too good for that" vibe or are there serious issues like complete opposite teaching with no flexibility for a great player getting solid outside instruction?  Does he not recognize and appreciate the many special aspects of HS ball as compared to travel, showcase and eventually college ball?  Even if the team is not good, there are an abundance of things special with HS ball that he won't get anywhere else.  Obviously, it would be difficult for the coaching to measure up to what he is getting outside of HS.  So what.  

I've said it here several times on this same subject... playing for your school while it is still somewhat of a game and not a job, everyone pulling for the same goal without necessarily having an eye on the next level, playing for community/cross-town rivalry, learning how to really be a good teammate often in less-than-ideal conditions, becoming a team leader, helping your school program improve/gain pride and respectability, etc., etc.  HS games are a great, fun environment for him to actually put all his hard work into games, even if not the competitive level of summer.

Travel is largely to be seen by colleges.  College is a full time job.  If he loves baseball, what is so bad about the HS program that he feels he shouldn't be part of the things I refer to?  I suppose in some cases it can be that bad.  Like I said, only he and you know if that is the case for him.

I'd be careful, though, about calling summer travel "the real deal".  For many on the HS team, HS is the real deal and whether he speaks it or puts it off as his air, that wouldn't be good for anyone.  Knowing when to show a bit of humility is yet another lesson that can be learned.

I don't know that my son is learning a ton about baseball from his HS baseball. His team was not very good his freshman and sophomore years, but was better last year and hopefully will be still better this year. His coach is a nice guy, but not the best baseball coach in the world.

What he's learning from HS baseball is how be a leader, how to bring kids along who may not be as talented or as motivated as he is, and how to work respectfully with a wide variety of people. And every time he has an at bat or throws a pitch, it's good for him.

I think it's been well worth it.

Frankly there is no reason not to play for the HS.  HS sport are just that HS sports.  Not about recruiting and the next level stuff.  Putting on the school uniform, playing against those rival schools, making memories, and having fun.  

My daughter attended a high school that had a 32 game losing streak during the two years before she played. No one remembered the last time the team had a winning record. She was part of four straight conference championships.

When my son got to high school baseball had seventeen losing seasons in the previous twenty years. He played on two conference champions and a second place finish. 

Both these programs remained quality programs after they left. They were proud to be part of a new, winning tradition. That said, their travel teams got them to college softball and baseball. But they did demonstrate playing high school sports they could time manage and balance academics and athletics.

I think the program doesn't matter much if he does well in showcases. However I would definitely advice against quitting the last year. HS season is short and he still has enough time to play showcases or travel in the summer and fall.

It doesn't have to be that way but some college coaches could see not playing the last HS year as a character flaw or a case of too much entitlement/being a "diva". Maybe he could explain that but I wouldn't take that chance. Just play those 3 or so months, be a good teammate and have fun and then get back to work in the summer and fall showcases.

Robrod,

I've walked a mile (probably more) in your parental shoes.  Play high school baseball would be my advice.  It gives your son different and new experiences than he can get with his travel team. 

Here's the funny thing...my son got to choose his high school.  He could have played for the best team in the district (1.5 miles from my house) with the best high school coach in the state in my opinion.  He didn't.  Yes, it was painful at times.   Once the travel and showcase season rolled around, he was always very excited to play a higher level of baseball and get the exposure we thought was necessary. 

Good luck!

Travel baseball as the boys get older becomes a business...the sense of team is marginal, the "free agent" market is constantly changing rosters, friends come and go and come back again...it is all about me and what is best for me. I am fine with all of that, it has its place - so be it.

HS baseball is just fun, it is your boys you grew up with, your community, your school. There should be very little pressure from what you have stated, enjoy it. It is 2.5 months or whatever and then back to the travel circuit. You most likely will get nothing from it but it will and should be lots of fun.

Rob. Sent you a PM.

The OP sounds like I did back in the day..... I had one that struggled with this.  Will he feel the same way in college.   You know not wanting to play in college so he can focus on the "real" team pro ball.   See how that sounds, feels, comes off?

I can assure you as good as he is and I don't doubt that, there are others as good or better... I have had many many P5 coaches to Special asst. to the GM tell me that character is very very very important.

So I get it, HS ball can suck at times, especially for the more talented player on a sub par team.  Sounds like an excellent opportunity to show RC's and scouts what your made of.

If you play HS ball you may not gain a ton , but who cares you have the other guys working with him.  If you don't play then you open the door for speculation as to why he is not playing, diva, injured etc.... 

Have him ask the MLB coaches that he goes to for lesson's see what they say.

HS coach here as well.  If your son has talent and comes across as mature and humble when talking to coaches he will be fine.  Overall it is frustrating to play for a lesser team but there are so many things to get out of it than just baseball.  The college coaches will know he plays for a bad HS team and they will want to see how he handles that obstacle - does he show up everyday ready to compete, how does he treat his inferior team mates, how does he handle the losing and things like that.  It helps the college coach figure out what his mental make up is.  

He can still land at a high level prestigious college program without playing HS baseball but is the lessons learned he will miss worth it?

Rob

Where shall I begin. I picked the school district to live in for academics.Had no kids at the time. Never giving sports a thought. How was I to know that I would have 3 sons who were athletes and sports was all they cared about being at a small D4 school. Fast forward. My oldest son did everything your son is currently doing. He did not play middle school baseball only travel ball. He was recruited to play high school ball by private catholic schools that were D1 some of the best in my state. His high school program was a joke IMO. He however did not want to leave to go to another program. He wanted to play with his high school friends for once. He had his private lessons, he had his travel team, he had invites  to all PG and many more. He wanted to prove if you are good enough you will be found from everything you participate in. He was right. He broke every record in high school which still stands today. He was the leader. He helped the kids, he even helped the coaches. He was a starter as a freshmen that pissed off many parents that were very verbal about it. He didn’t care. His CHARACTER is what he cared about as that’s what scouts want to see ( besides good grades and good act scores). They did show up to a few high school games believe it or not. He did get many D1 college offers. He did play in college and was drafted to MLB where he is today. Please implore your son to play high school baseball. He will be sending a huge red flag IMO if he doesn’t. Who does he think he is? Tell him to look at his baseball hero’s who played in MLB. They all played high school ball with the exception of international kids that come over in their teens. Good luck!!!

For the love of the game!!⚾️⚾️⚾️

Good advice here.  My 2019 has experienced a number of challenges with HS ball and most likely will not receive a fair opportunity to play as he would in a different program.  The level of competition is generally acceptable and we play some quality opponents as our State goes - but there are other issues with our particular program.  I have often considered whether he should just let it go and focus on training and summer.  In some extreme circumstances, that may be best.  But our son decided that he will not let these issues deprive him of the HS baseball experience.  You only get 4 years LOL.  He decided to keep his head down, keep pushing, take advantage of whatever opportunity he is afforded (if any), and use it as an opportunity to at least practice and get sharp for summer ball.  I would err on the side of playing.  Maybe he could set some personal and team goals to try to keep his head in the game.  Best of luck!

Robrod posted:

I have a son (2020 year) who has had private hitting/fielding/pitching coaches for many years.  Some free, some not... but all are top notch.  These are men who have played Major League Baseball, each for several years and one has even coached at that level.  They teach baseball 'the right way' and are often hitting/pitching/fielding coordinators still employed by MLB organizations for Rookie, winter and spring pro ball. 

He plays Travel ball for a highly regarded Pro Scout team and is on some scout watch lists (whatever that means).   So he's talented but I have no delusions that he'll be an early round draft candidate but he does have interest from D1s...... Problem is, his high school program is simply not very good.  He recently stated that this is his last year playing HS Baseball and that he'd rather spend the time working with coaches, getting stronger and refining skills for his 'real' season (travel ball - perfectgame, prospectwire, USA Baseball etc.).  I won't get to details but lets just say he's not challenged by the program and it's like taking two steps forward (summer) and one step back (HS).  

I'm concerned by his statement.  I don't want him to be labelled a quiter (although he won't be quiting mid-season, he'll stick it out) or arrogant $#@! who's thinks his stuff don't stink.  I don't want scouts and recruiters looking down on him for this decision...   I come from an era where you stick it out, go the traditional route, etc.  Even though I really don't know the traditional route....  So I'm having an open mind.

What are the pitfalls of taking this route?

What are the alternatives?  It seems to me that HS baseball is necessary.

Please advise.

 

 

 

To me, the bolded statement is the real issue.  He's got to figure out how not to take a step back in the spring due to the weak HS program.  The best way, IMO, is for him to own the process of getting better and not place blame on the HS program.  Be the hardest worker during HS practice and take the opportunity to be a leader.  Continue to work out with his hitting coach and fielding coach in the evenings (if need be, put your foot down with the HS coach on this point, rather than quit).  Hit the weight room during lunch a couple times a week - continue to get bigger and stronger.  Do yoga on the weekend.  Work on speed.  The one area that he'll need to adjust in the summer is hitting the better pitching - it may take a few games to get his timing down but he'll be fine.

Play HS and enjoy representing the school. Keep in mind that there are many, many kids (especially here in California) who don't have the choice and, no matter how hard they work, are cut from their high school team each year. 

Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth I played high school ball. One year we were 10-1 when I pitched and 1-8 when I didn’t. I was often pitching out of error induced jams. My pitch counts had to be high (not an issue then). It never dawned on me to quit. My teammates were my friends. I felt an obligation to make it the best season possible. 

As a parent of a 5yo and newborn we selected a school district based on academics. The high school stunk at all but country club sports. It all changed as my kid’s classes got to middle school and high school. Not just because of my kids. But they were part of it. 

Need more details

Valid reasons (in my opinion) to not play High School Baseball:

Injury concerns.  Arm getting abused by coach.  Coach not willing to change the arm abuse.

Other than that, unless the Coach is a complete sociopathic criminal, or engaging in overly excessive behavior such as punching players in the face, telling pitchers to intentionally throw at opponent's heads, sexually harassing the player's Mom etc, I'd say go play...

Couple things I'd like to add-

1st, as far as the step back goes- my son experienced this last season. He'd been training his ass off over the winter and when the season started was pretty much in peak form ready to roll. When HS season kicked in neither the workouts nor the practices were as rigorous as what he'd had in the off-season and as a result near the end of the season his velo was down and his pitches were suffering. He went the entire first month of the season without giving up an earned run and only allowing 9 hits. He gave up 10 hits his last game of the season! He learned his lesson with about 2 weeks left in the season and started working extra on his own (weighted balls, long toss, etc) , so by summer ball he was getting himself ramped back up and had a great summer. This year he's determined to keep working like it's the off-season and avoid the in-season dropoff.

2nd, the coach for the school he has committed to has already sent an email asking for weekly HS updates. Clearly they're expecting him to play HS ball of for no other reason than to make sure the kid they've verbally committed to giving money to doesn't start to suck.

3rd, Our local paper has a great prep sports department, and it's pretty cool to see his name in the paper once a week or so. I'm not sure that actually helps with anything, but it can't hurt, and neither can ending up all-conference, all-area and hopefully all-state. Opportunities he can only get if he plays in HS.

3and2Fastball posted:

Need more details

Valid reasons (in my opinion) to not play High School Baseball:

Injury concerns.  Arm getting abused by coach.  Coach not willing to change the arm abuse.

Other than that, unless the Coach is a complete sociopathic criminal, or engaging in overly excessive behavior such as punching players in the face, telling pitchers to intentionally throw at opponent's heads, sexually harassing the player's Mom etc, I'd say go play...

 

Only slight overuse issues...

I would say that learning to deal with that pressure is a good thing... embrace it.  

All good input. YES, play ball! There is much more to learn from being a leader and simply competing for his team. It's easy to play for a good team and adversity will only make him better!

My '18 has played for a very weak HS program. Every player plays the game for the enjoyment of the game, most seldom seek playing after HS as their goals are different. He helps his peers with pointers when asked and supports his teammates leading by example.

NEVER discount what the HS coach or program can do for your player. My sons HS coach received a phone call from his future college coach.............In 22 years, not one college coach had ever contacted him for a specific player. This phone call had one question, "What am I getting"? He knew the HS coach had no skin in the game and wasn't being paid by the player/parents. The college coach went on to state that travel coaches will lie to get a player to the next level as they benefit   from it.

Knowing the coach was a teacher first and  baseball coach second made him a valued opinion in the recruitment of my son. I'm glad as a parent that we instilled good values that show good character both on and off the field.

Robrod posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Need more details

Valid reasons (in my opinion) to not play High School Baseball:

Injury concerns.  Arm getting abused by coach.  Coach not willing to change the arm abuse.

Other than that, unless the Coach is a complete sociopathic criminal, or engaging in overly excessive behavior such as punching players in the face, telling pitchers to intentionally throw at opponent's heads, sexually harassing the player's Mom etc, I'd say go play...

 

Only slight overuse issues... He led the school in innings, pitches, strikouts last year and was pitcher of the year.  I'm not OVERLY concerned.  he's not a pitcher as much as he is a hitter and he's pretty good at telling the coach when he's sore... they listen.

I'd classify the coach as a grumpy old guy.... so what.  He can deal with that. 

I think it's more about the fact that it's not fun to lose and the way it's happening.  He puts a lot on himself.  He feels that he needs to be perfect and if he's perfect they have a chance to complete.  Being good, the coach relies heavily on him to be perfect....   I do think the weight of the team is on his shoulders.  I think this tension makes playing not fun.

I would say that learning to deal with that pressure is a good thing... embrace it.  

Agree?

 

Yes, agree and would add...  perspective.  Is there really a lot of pressure for a bad HS team?  They are not expected to win so there is only tremendous upside.  Maybe he can shift some of his efforts from being perfect to helping others be better players so he doesn't have to be perfect.  That can go a long way for him, his teammates and his HS program - IF it is done with good attitude and perspective.

This type of pressure is really nothing compared to what he is likely to face going forward.  So, yes, embrace it.

Robrod posted:

I think it's more about the fact that it's not fun to lose and the way it's happening.  He puts a lot on himself.  He feels that he needs to be perfect and if he's perfect they have a chance to complete.  Being good, the coach relies heavily on him to be perfect....   I do think the weight of the team is on his shoulders.  I think this tension makes playing not fun.

 

IMO, not a valid reason to not play HS ball.  What will he do if the college team he commits to ends up being "not good".  

As others have said the college coaches will be wanting updates from his HS coach from time to time.  If he tells a college coach he stopped playing because the team "was not good" it is going to work against him.   In addition there is the possibility the college guys find out he was playing HS for a while and stopped.  They may decide that want to put a call into the HS coach to verify your sons story.  

At the end of the day, your sons situation is not unique.  Many high level players play for HS teams that are not good.  They find a way to suck it up and deal with it.  Your son needs to find it within himself to get into a mindset that supports his HS team.

My son played for what is probably the only HS in America to have 3 first round draft picks and current Major Leaguer's as well as a good number of other good college level players transfer out. It wasn't the coach was a jerk or anything like that, he just played players by their grade, not their talent and you didn't play varsity till 11th grade no matter how good you are.  Imagine a first overall pick playing JV in the 10th grade.  In 5 years on the team  my son played in only 12 games at the varsity level in his true position, catcher.  He was forced to pitch, play first and DH because all the other good pitchers left, there wasn't much talent behind him either.  Several local colleges came to look at him and told him he could walk on in the fall but they didn't think there was anyway he'd make the team and encouraged him to go elsewhere.  His coach even told him one day some college kept calling and leaving messages on his phone asking about him, did he know what they wanted?  He never even called them back.  He did play for a top showcase team in the summer but nothing ever came of that either.  He ended up with a D3 coach he was taking hitting lessons with making a call to a D1 JUCO.  After one year there and being named first team all Region catcher he had a number of D1 offers including an SEC team, an ACC team and several mid majors, even one of the teams that told him not to bother walking on offered him a full scholarship (it was a very low rated academic school and he would have gotten academic money as well as baseball money).  The coach said he didn't know he could catch and hit like that.  He accepted a mid major D1 in the state and did well, even lighting up the other school that rejected him in 3 out of 4 games they played against them.  He went on to become a first team all conference catcher and was drafted.  He has just finished 4 years of indie pro ball. 

If I had to do it again I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same thing, it worked out well for him this time, and moving just so your son can play ball is expensive, but I definitly think he should play HS ball, just don't get hurt.

Robrod posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Need more details

Valid reasons (in my opinion) to not play High School Baseball:

Injury concerns.  Arm getting abused by coach.  Coach not willing to change the arm abuse.

Other than that, unless the Coach is a complete sociopathic criminal, or engaging in overly excessive behavior such as punching players in the face, telling pitchers to intentionally throw at opponent's heads, sexually harassing the player's Mom etc, I'd say go play...

 

Only slight overuse issues... He led the school in innings, pitches, strikouts last year and was pitcher of the year.  I'm not OVERLY concerned.  he's not a pitcher as much as he is a hitter and he's pretty good at telling the coach when he's sore... they listen.

I'd classify the coach as a grumpy old guy.... so what.  He can deal with that. 

I think it's more about the fact that it's not fun to lose and the way it's happening.  He puts a lot on himself.  He feels that he needs to be perfect and if he's perfect they have a chance to complete.  Being good, the coach relies heavily on him to be perfect....   I do think the weight of the team is on his shoulders.  I think this tension makes playing not fun.

I would say that learning to deal with that pressure is a good thing... embrace it.  

Agree?

 

If he can’t handle the weight of the high school team on his shoulders he’s a long way from having the required mental and emotional discipline to compete for playing time at the college level. He should play high school ball just to work through handling the pressure. 

Chances are there will be frustration and pressure at the college level. Everyone can play. Will he be mentally ready when he gets his shot? What happens if he’s hitting .240 and knows if he doesn’t perform better he could end up on the bench? What if he sits then gets one shot to prove himself? Will he be mentally ready?

From having played and watching both kids play it’s the players who have mental disciple who survive college ball. After the first five studs (relative to the level of play) chances are the next thirty are competing for playing time at about thirteen positions. 

It’s an honor to earn the right to play college ball. It’s a challenge to prove you deserve to stay and play.

Robrod posted:

...................................................

 

Only slight overuse issues... He led the school in innings, pitches, strikouts last year and was pitcher of the year.  I'm not OVERLY concerned.  he's not a pitcher as much as he is a hitter and he's pretty good at telling the coach when he's sore... they listen.

I'd classify the coach as a grumpy old guy.... so what.  He can deal with that. 

I think it's more about the fact that it's not fun to lose and the way it's happening.  He puts a lot on himself.  He feels that he needs to be perfect and if he's perfect they have a chance to complete.  Being good, the coach relies heavily on him to be perfect....   I do think the weight of the team is on his shoulders.  I think this tension makes playing not fun.

I would say that learning to deal with that pressure is a good thing... embrace it.  

Agree?

 

Robrod,

Again, I know what you're thinking and going through.   Not easy to be on losing or average high school team and good enough to be on a 16U Perfect Game WWBA Championship team.....that was my son a few years ago.  He hated losing but it gave him new opportunites to stand out, separate himself from others, and be a leader on his high school team.   My son is not much of a talker.  He led by example, and it got the respect of his teammates, opponents and other coaches in his District.   A couple of those coaches commented to me after games that my son had a "knack and a gift" both as a pitcher and a hitter.   

High school coaches talk and it didn't take long for college coaches to show up and some area scouts to take notice.  Playing high school baseball is just another opportunity for your son to showcase his skills, leadership, and demonstrate he is ready for the next level.   I think if he treats it that way, he will relax and not feel as though he has to carry the team.   Trust me, I've been there.

Good luck!

Smitty28 posted:

Robrod posted:

I have a son (2020 year) who has had private hitting/fielding/pitching coaches for many years.  Some free, some not... but all are top notch.  These are men who have played Major League Baseball, each for several years and one has even coached at that level.  They teach baseball 'the right way' and are often hitting/pitching/fielding coordinators still employed by MLB organizations for Rookie, winter and spring pro ball. 

He plays Travel ball for a highly regarded Pro Scout team and is on some scout watch lists (whatever that means).   So he's talented but I have no delusions that he'll be an early round draft candidate but he does have interest from D1s...... Problem is, his high school program is simply not very good.  He recently stated that this is his last year playing HS Baseball and that he'd rather spend the time working with coaches, getting stronger and refining skills for his 'real' season (travel ball - perfectgame, prospectwire, USA Baseball etc.).  I won't get to details but lets just say he's not challenged by the program and it's like taking two steps forward (summer) and one step back (HS).  

I'm concerned by his statement.  I don't want him to be labelled a quiter (although he won't be quiting mid-season, he'll stick it out) or arrogant $#@! who's thinks his stuff don't stink.  I don't want scouts and recruiters looking down on him for this decision...   I come from an era where you stick it out, go the traditional route, etc.  Even though I really don't know the traditional route....  So I'm having an open mind.

What are the pitfalls of taking this route?

What are the alternatives?  It seems to me that HS baseball is necessary.

Please advise.

 

 

 

To me, the bolded statement is the real issue.  He's got to figure out how not to take a step back in the spring due to the weak HS program.  The best way, IMO, is for him to own the process of getting better and not place blame on the HS program.  Be the hardest worker during HS practice and take the opportunity to be a leader.  Continue to work out with his hitting coach and fielding coach in the evenings (if need be, put your foot down with the HS coach on this point, rather than quit).  Hit the weight room during lunch a couple times a week - continue to get bigger and stronger.  Do yoga on the weekend.  Work on speed.  The one area that he'll need to adjust in the summer is hitting the better pitching - it may take a few games to get his timing down but he'll be fine.

 A lot of high school programs are "easier" than travel programs.  HS teachers/coaches can't be hard a###s anymore.  

And unless they play even worse competition, they will have their opportunities.  My kid has faced several D1 pitchers at the high school level.  It keeps you sharp.  

Depending upon your location and family circumstances, you may want to consider the private school option.

Scouts do not come to watch teams. They come to watch players. The obvious metrics are easy. Arm strength, athletic ability, ability to hit, power, fielding. You learn a great deal about the make up of a player when he his getting his teeth kicked in and he plays like he's not. You learn a great deal about a player when he's down by 10 but you can't tell by the way he competes. Scouts understand that HS teams can be bad. They understand you can't control the quality of your team mates. How do you handle it?

For me these situations are just opportunities. An opportunity to make those around you better. An opportunity to be a leader. An opportunity to grow. Scouts could quite honestly care less about the quality of the HS team you play on. They are there to see if you have the tools and you can use them. And of course what is your make up?

Will it matter if you simply leave and find a better team to play on? Maybe not. Will it raise a red flag or two? Maybe not. Will it be an opportunity lost? I always go back to a kid that was pulled because his team was way up and he was about to get a chance to launch his 3rd HR of the night. There were numerous scouts in the house. What did he do? He shagged foul balls and cheered his team on the last 2 innings. I think that made a bigger impression on the scouts there that night than Josh Hamilton's play did. At least that's what many said.

Last night 2018 was playing in a scrimmage, 6-7 teams there scouting.  The umpire lived three houses down from me, you might think 2018 was to get at least a  fair zone..... nope, Ump was concerned about favoritism and gave him a clowns mouth against a team that won the state championship last year.  BTW it was 42 degrees...  first batter K's , second batter K's  third batter hits a normal ball at SS, soph boots it to third base.  fourth batter hits a pop up in foul territory on the right side... dropped...  Runner steals and catcher has him by 10 feet.... short lets the ball go into center field.  Fourth batter again K's  .... White Sox guy says  and I quote  "well he didn't cuss anyone" 

I think I forgot how bad HS ball is.

Softball but same difference. 

There's a girl here who's forgone HS softball and just did the TB thing. And we have an exceptional program, going unbeaten in the regular season most of the 7 years we've lived here with a couple of state titles . Don't know if it's a coach/player thing or what but she committed to a top level DI program recently. Also checked out her Twitter and noticed a few of the HS players commenting and liking post so doesn't seem to be any animosity. 

The top soccer academies are telling their players (D1 and pro prospects) you will not play for the high school. Maybe there are less soccer coaches who played the game at a high level and know the game than baseball.

So for all these reasons, no reason to get your nose out of joint if your D1 prospect Sophomore kid is playing with his buddies on JV and they move up the son of the asst coach, his buddy, and the son of the booster club president?  Or am I wrong about that?  

RJM posted:

The top soccer academies are telling their players (D1 and pro prospects) you will not play for the high school. Maybe there are less soccer coaches who played the game at a high level and know the game than baseball.

I have one soccer player. In our area many of the soccer club coaches didn't go to an american HS with sports. They may have no idea what HS camaraderie is all about and selfishly are just trying to keep their lucrative soccer coach gigs, by controlling the product.   Sadly we've reached a tipping point in baseball where HS programs are just for fun; but since you can't do both at the same time, there's a conflict.  I think state athletic associations should eliminate that restriction but require that pitching logs are kept, but I can see arguments on both sides including prevention of injuries etc. 

2020.2023dad posted:

...  Sadly we've reached a tipping point in baseball where HS programs are just for fun; but since you can't do both at the same time, there's a conflict.  ....

I certainly do not see that we've reached that tipping point with baseball.  The majority of top HS age players still play baseball for their HS. Yes, of course, a legitimate travel team in a given area will typically be slightly more competitive than the average HS in the area.  This only stands to reason.  The travel team is likely to be made up of a handful of the best from each of the area HS's.  

Most HS age players that want to play "just for fun"?  My observation is that a good many of them are getting cut by their HS programs or getting passed by with PT because so many of their peers are playing both HS and travel ball and working extra on their game outside of the normal HS team practice time and working the hardest with every rep at those practices. 

Tying this in to my other post...  At the moment, I do not have clear separation between my 6th best guy and my 13th best guy.  Each game, penning the lineup requires some deep digging.  We had a big league game yesterday.  We were playing a team with a LH ace and a lineup that can hit any pitching.  I have a good LH hitter who doesn't move well.   Looking at his recent offensive production and his history against this ace, I was set on replacing him in the lineup.  The few days leading up to the game, he pushed even beyond his normal strong efforts.  He is the only kid that finished outfield drills in a full sweat.  He refused to back down on any hitting rep, whether it be cage swings, front toss, on-field, whatever... clearly determined to create separation where there was none or where it was tipping against him.  I reluctantly took out my eraser and penciled him in.  He carried that determination into the game...  among other things... game winning RBI.

2020.2023dad posted:

So for all these reasons, no reason to get your nose out of joint if your D1 prospect Sophomore kid is playing with his buddies on JV and they move up the son of the asst coach, his buddy, and the son of the booster club president?  Or am I wrong about that?  

Well, there would have to be quite a few assumptions made that may or may not be true in order for us to answer your question.  One thing I can offer up with near certainty... If we are talking about actually getting varsity PLAYING TIME, if that D1 prospect sophomore has already developed to the point where there is CLEAR SEPARATION between him and others getting PLAYING TIME at varsity, the vast majority of HS coaches would choose that player to get that playing time and give their team the best chance to win, no matter who's son the other players might be.

There are a heck of a lot of other factors as to who goes on what roster.  It's probably safe to say that we typically have a few JV players who are better than the last few to make the varsity roster.  But things like making sure the better players get game innings, ability and willingness to fill a role, position fit, likely eligibility, chemistry and a whole lot of other things come into play.

There is always going to be bias in many ways for a variety of reasons.  The message to send the player is always to create clear separation.  If you haven't, work harder.  Just as there will always be hurdles.  If you haven't cleared them, jump higher.  Find a way.  Focusing on those biases and hurdles as things that are keeping you down is self-defeating excuse making.  Focus on them as challenges to be conquered and rise up.  I have a small handful of players who will not let me take them out of the lineup.  Not because they say so, because they play so.

2020.2023dad posted:

So for all these reasons, no reason to get your nose out of joint if your D1 prospect Sophomore kid is playing with his buddies on JV and they move up the son of the asst coach, his buddy, and the son of the booster club president?  Or am I wrong about that?  

With the diversity of posters here you will hear every possible thing that could happen. In the big picture it doesn’t happen that often. Some of the time the accusation it’s an excuse why a parent’s kid isn’t on varsity. The “favored” is actually a player.

Our rival high school coach was accused of favoritism with both kids. They both became D1 players. The one thing parents sometimes overlook is the coach knows what his kids can do. Another potential JV call up may be a mystery gamble to him. 

The best advice is practice hard and be too good to not be on varsity. It’s usually the parents of marginal kids you hear whining about favortism.

2020.2023dad posted:

RJM posted:

The top soccer academies are telling their players (D1 and pro prospects) you will not play for the high school. Maybe there are less soccer coaches who played the game at a high level and know the game than baseball.

I have one soccer player. In our area many of the soccer club coaches didn't go to an american HS with sports. They may have no idea what HS camaraderie is all about and selfishly are just trying to keep their lucrative soccer coach gigs, by controlling the product.   Sadly we've reached a tipping point in baseball where HS programs are just for fun; but since you can't do both at the same time, there's a conflict.  I think state athletic associations should eliminate that restriction but require that pitching logs are kept, but I can see arguments on both sides including prevention of injuries etc. 

My son was recruited by a couple of elite soccer programs. They wanted him to drop all other sports and not play varsity soccer. My son told them he’s a baseball player. He did play varsity soccer and went to an elite goalie camp. 

Son recruited and scouted in the Summer and watched during HS.

They watched his approach, interaction with coaches, officials and players. They even attended his hockey and soccer games.

These guys are looking for atheletes with good character.

He played for a HA Prep School where the fastest pitch was 78 mph.

Play HS Baseball, it'll be an unchecked box if you don't.

I can't speak for pitcher's but for position players your HS can impact where you play at the next level. Better programs have better track records for feeding into college. It is also more competitive to make the team. Weaker programs Just the opposite.  Hence the rise in spring leagues here in Calif.  At Stanford camp I heard a Pac 12 RC tell the boys that  one of the questions he asks head coaches is how many D1 players the head coach has had come out of his HS. If it has been few or none, then he is less apt to consider a player from that school.  It's thought that weaker schools don't prepare a kid for the D1/D2 levels as well.

Everyone knew my sons wanted to play college ball at any level, and most of the players were on the team just for fun with no aspirations beyond HS ball. Some were surprised that they didn't transfer. My sons were told by more than one  local college coach that anyone going to their HS wouldn't be ready for college baseball, That the good serious players transfer. It didnt stop them, although it did limit their exposure despite being on a recognized travel squad.   They still found college spots. They played for their HS and now one is playing out of state and the other is fighting it out in JUCO. 

Just realize that the better programs have more options but it may be more difficult to make the team and get play time.  It is also who you know and who they know. 

the more I learn about college coaches and evaluators the less impressed I am.

A lot of good advice here.  I'd like to point out that you are only young once. It's great that your son has high aspirations and he wants to improve during the HS season.  However, at some point baseball ends for everyone.  When his son looks at his dad's high school yearbook one day and he isn't in the baseball picture, do you think he will have regrets about that?

Also, consider the flip side. At my son's public high school here in California, the varsity baseball team has nearly 30 players on the roster. 7 players have already committed to colleges and there are AT LEAST 5-6 more that are D1/D2 caliber players. Included in this are 2 very good catchers stuck behind a stud senior D1 committed catcher.  

CaCO3Girl posted:

A lot of good advice here.  I'd like to point out that you are only young once. It's great that your son has high aspirations and he wants to improve during the HS season.  However, at some point baseball ends for everyone.  When his son looks at his dad's high school yearbook one day and he isn't in the baseball picture, do you think he will have regrets about that?

Not sure Caco cause we don't waste the $75 to buy the yearbook!!

Can we just be honest?  Nobody cares one way or another.  Even if they would 'prefer' that you play HS ball if a coach thinks you are better than the other kid they will take you.  If not they will take the other kid.  Its that simple.  Now I get that if they think the kid may flunk out or he has a criminal record etc that comes into play.  But this thought that they place such a high value on character...  Ok maybe for their lower end guys.  But if a kid with poor character is throwing 95 he will have no problem getting a deal!!  Besides travel ball as an option is now completely acceptable.  Don't want to  shock anyone but a kid who opts to just play travel ball can be a good character kid too!!!  Its just a choice nothing more nothing less.

RJM posted:

Robrod posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Need more details

Valid reasons (in my opinion) to not play High School Baseball:

Injury concerns.  Arm getting abused by coach.  Coach not willing to change the arm abuse.

Other than that, unless the Coach is a complete sociopathic criminal, or engaging in overly excessive behavior such as punching players in the face, telling pitchers to intentionally throw at opponent's heads, sexually harassing the player's Mom etc, I'd say go play...

 

Only slight overuse issues... He led the school in innings, pitches, strikouts last year and was pitcher of the year.  I'm not OVERLY concerned.  he's not a pitcher as much as he is a hitter and he's pretty good at telling the coach when he's sore... they listen.

I'd classify the coach as a grumpy old guy.... so what.  He can deal with that. 

I think it's more about the fact that it's not fun to lose and the way it's happening.  He puts a lot on himself.  He feels that he needs to be perfect and if he's perfect they have a chance to complete.  Being good, the coach relies heavily on him to be perfect....   I do think the weight of the team is on his shoulders.  I think this tension makes playing not fun.

I would say that learning to deal with that pressure is a good thing... embrace it.  

Agree?

 

If he can’t handle the weight of the high school team on his shoulders he’s a long way from having the required mental and emotional discipline to compete for playing time at the college level. He should play high school ball just to work through handling the pressure. 

Chances are there will be frustration and pressure at the college level. Everyone can play. Will he be mentally ready when he gets his shot? What happens if he’s hitting .240 and knows if he doesn’t perform better he could end up on the bench? What if he sits then gets one shot to prove himself? Will he be mentally ready?

From having played and watching both kids play it’s the players who have mental disciple who survive college ball. After the first five studs (relative to the level of play) chances are the next thirty are competing for playing time at about thirteen positions. 

It’s an honor to earn the right to play college ball. It’s a challenge to prove you deserve to stay and play.

RJM - This post is so right, and exactly what Ryno is dealing with right now.  His team would now probably be rated 40 - 50 in D-1, and yet, there are so many good players on the team.  There are a lot of good players, and as a result, there is immense pressure on these kids to perform.  They are constantly faced with, "If I don't perform, I may lose my spot."  

Unfortunately, Ryan has lost his, but it will be interesting to see how mentally tough he is.  I believe he is, and I believe that he has handled the demotion well; but only time will tell.

2020dad posted:

Can we just be honest?  Nobody cares one way or another.  Even if they would 'prefer' that you play HS ball if a coach thinks you are better than the other kid they will take you.  If not they will take the other kid.  Its that simple.  Now I get that if they think the kid may flunk out or he has a criminal record etc that comes into play.  But this thought that they place such a high value on character...  Ok maybe for their lower end guys.  But if a kid with poor character is throwing 95 he will have no problem getting a deal!!  Besides travel ball as an option is now completely acceptable.  Don't want to  shock anyone but a kid who opts to just play travel ball can be a good character kid too!!!  Its just a choice nothing more nothing less.

I agree somewhat, but let's be honest, there are a lot more guys not throwing 95, than those that do.  Therefore, it does matter for most.  

Is it absolutely essential? No.  In most cases is it the right thing to do? I think Yes.

I went back and checked in on a "high level" kid in our area who skipped HS baseball.  He was always on the top travel teams and scout teams and, yes, HS baseball would have been a "step down" in talent.  He "committed" early to a big D1 school.  Never attended.  Ended up at a top JUCO -- for a year.  Then transferred to another JUCO.  Then "committed" to another D1 school.  Not on the spring roster.  The kid is like a nomad -- always searching for the next thing.  HS baseball could have been a good, stable experience for him.  So IMO, take the opportunities you have today because you never know what will happen tomorrow.  

2boydad posted:

I can't speak for pitcher's but for position players your HS can impact where you play at the next level. Better programs have better track records for feeding into college. It is also more competitive to make the team. Weaker programs Just the opposite.  Hence the rise in spring leagues here in Calif.  At Stanford camp I heard a Pac 12 RC tell the boys that  one of the questions he asks head coaches is how many D1 players the head coach has had come out of his HS. If it has been few or none, then he is less apt to consider a player from that school.  It's thought that weaker schools don't prepare a kid for the D1/D2 levels as well.

Everyone knew my sons wanted to play college ball at any level, and most of the players were on the team just for fun with no aspirations beyond HS ball. Some were surprised that they didn't transfer. My sons were told by more than one  local college coach that anyone going to their HS wouldn't be ready for college baseball, That the good serious players transfer. It didnt stop them, although it did limit their exposure despite being on a recognized travel squad.   They still found college spots. They played for their HS and now one is playing out of state and the other is fighting it out in JUCO. 

Just realize that the better programs have more options but it may be more difficult to make the team and get play time.  It is also who you know and who they know. 

I disagree. If you’re a D1 prospect chances are you’re on a quality travel team. You’re seeing plenty of quality competition all summer. You’re seen by a lot more colleges coaches than playing in high school. Chances are you’re quality travel program has better college contacts than the typical high school coach.

2020dad posted:

Can we just be honest?  Nobody cares one way or another.  Even if they would 'prefer' that you play HS ball if a coach thinks you are better than the other kid they will take you.  If not they will take the other kid.  Its that simple.  Now I get that if they think the kid may flunk out or he has a criminal record etc that comes into play.  But this thought that they place such a high value on character...  Ok maybe for their lower end guys.  But if a kid with poor character is throwing 95 he will have no problem getting a deal!!  Besides travel ball as an option is now completely acceptable.  Don't want to  shock anyone but a kid who opts to just play travel ball can be a good character kid too!!!  Its just a choice nothing more nothing less.

If you’re better. But after the top studs the difference between one player and the next couple hundred is minimal. Now the variables come into play. Playing or not playing high school ball is a variable. 

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past.

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money .

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport.

bacdorslider posted:

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity. - I think you have to remove the emotion of being a 5%er from the equation. For an overwhelming majority of  HS players, HS baseball is THE pinnacle of their playing days. Your in HS once in a lifetime. That time should be spent as a high school student, taking in the various activities and getting involved. They will get where they're going soon enough and the ability to overcome adversity, making adjustments will only make them better.

I don't believe HS baseball was any better 30 + years ago. It was probably worse as we were left alone to simply play the game and figure it out without lessons and academies.......and  using the original BBCOR, lol, one piece spun aluminum.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past. - I really think it sends the wrong message. The kids should play the game first for the love of the game. Too much emphasis on "winning the lottery", aka, college scholarships and draft. Those opportunities will come anyway for the upper 5%. 

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  - Sure there is.......work on the mental game by battling through things a player CAN control and not worrying about the things they cannot. If a player can't handle the trials and tribulations of HS ball........college and pro ball will eat them up and spit them out.

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money . - A matter of perspective really. Yes it is for 95% of all HS players.........IF they are playing for the "lottery". Not so much IF it's for the love of the game, the competition and  comradery.

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport. - 30-40 years ago.......the separation was there. The college bound players knew where they were going and in the Spring of their Senior year, draft eligible players knew they were being considered through personal contact and scouts at the fence. Back then they were still fish in a pond..............

MLB has seen the separation differently. COST to play the game, pay to play, pay to stay (listen to ABCA Ep71). When there is concern about exclusion due to cost, you can bet change is coming.

There is a movement in baseball to reach those in the inner cities creating opportunities, creating player scholarships to get the right athletes into baseball. Inner City Urban Youth Academies  just as they have in Latin American countries, an opportunity to play the game for free of charge with the best instructors and facilities money can buy. 

BDS - you got a fine pitcher. Don't sweat the small stuff, enjoy/embrace the now. He will get where he's going regardless of what others do, say or think . Remember there's 95% of HS players that WISH they were going where he's headed.

Our former travel organization formed a spring league for players who did not want to  play for could not play for their HS.  Some of those players played a different spring sport for their HS while playing in the spring league for baseball.  Many of those players went on to college ball at all levels. 

Also many very good but not Power or MLB Draft player will get lost in the crowd, so your school does matter.  It can be what separates you from the crowd.  Just as some colleges/graduate schools carry more weight with employers than others, better programs often carry more credibility with college coaches than weaker programs.  And for the position players, there are only so many schools looking for your position. Every school at all levels are looking m for  multiple pitchers and maybe SS  but may at best be looking for only 1 at your position.  Who you play for can make a difference as to wear you go. Friend's son SS PG ranking 8 from very good program goes to D1 Others i know  OF, catcher, corner infield same PG ranking but smaller schools go D3. 

I heard an interesting twist on the "school program matters" theme from a mid-major pitching coach this winter. He said something like (I'm paraphrasing, but this was the gist):

"It's funny, you talk to high school coach in some remote area about a kid, and the kid may be far and away the best player who has ever played there, and the coach will go completely overboard and tell you 'I think he's gonna be drafted' and you want to say to him 'Um, no, he's a marginal D1 talent.' And then you talk to a high school coach in South Florida or California about a kid, and this coach has played in like AA or AAA, and he's had multiple kids drafted, and super high level college players and the coach will be like 'Uh, I'm not too sure about him' and you want to say 'What are you talking about?! He's really good!' We always want to hear what the high school coach says but sometimes they don't have the best perspective."

RJM posted:

2boydad posted:

I can't speak for pitcher's but for position players your HS can impact where you play at the next level. Better programs have better track records for feeding into college. It is also more competitive to make the team. Weaker programs Just the opposite.  Hence the rise in spring leagues here in Calif.  At Stanford camp I heard a Pac 12 RC tell the boys that  one of the questions he asks head coaches is how many D1 players the head coach has had come out of his HS. If it has been few or none, then he is less apt to consider a player from that school.  It's thought that weaker schools don't prepare a kid for the D1/D2 levels as well.

Everyone knew my sons wanted to play college ball at any level, and most of the players were on the team just for fun with no aspirations beyond HS ball. Some were surprised that they didn't transfer. My sons were told by more than one  local college coach that anyone going to their HS wouldn't be ready for college baseball, That the good serious players transfer. It didnt stop them, although it did limit their exposure despite being on a recognized travel squad.   They still found college spots. They played for their HS and now one is playing out of state and the other is fighting it out in JUCO. 

Just realize that the better programs have more options but it may be more difficult to make the team and get play time.  It is also who you know and who they know. 

I disagree. If you’re a D1 prospect chances are you’re on a quality travel team. You’re seeing plenty of quality competition all summer. You’re seen by a lot more colleges coaches than playing in high school. Chances are you’re quality travel program has better college contacts than the typical high school coach.

 Only if the parents can afford it, and sometimes they can’t or think it’s ridiculous to drop 5K on a 10th graders travel ball team.  Are there the hole in the wall teams that play it cheap, yes, but they aren’t well known.

Backpick25 posted:

bacdorslider posted:

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity. - I think you have to remove the emotion of being a 5%er from the equation. For an overwhelming majority of  HS players, HS baseball is THE pinnacle of their playing days. Your in HS once in a lifetime. That time should be spent as a high school student, taking in the various activities and getting involved. They will get where they're going soon enough and the ability to overcome adversity, making adjustments will only make them better.

I don't believe HS baseball was any better 30 + years ago. It was probably worse as we were left alone to simply play the game and figure it out without lessons and academies.......and  using the original BBCOR, lol, one piece spun aluminum.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past. - I really think it sends the wrong message. The kids should play the game first for the love of the game. Too much emphasis on "winning the lottery", aka, college scholarships and draft. Those opportunities will come anyway for the upper 5%. 

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  - Sure there is.......work on the mental game by battling through things a player CAN control and not worrying about the things they cannot. If a player can't handle the trials and tribulations of HS ball........college and pro ball will eat them up and spit them out.

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money . - A matter of perspective really. Yes it is for 95% of all HS players.........IF they are playing for the "lottery". Not so much IF it's for the love of the game, the competition and  comradery.

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport. - 30-40 years ago.......the separation was there. The college bound players knew where they were going and in the Spring of their Senior year, draft eligible players knew they were being considered through personal contact and scouts at the fence. Back then they were still fish in a pond..............

MLB has seen the separation differently. COST to play the game, pay to play, pay to stay (listen to ABCA Ep71). When there is concern about exclusion due to cost, you can bet change is coming.

There is a movement in baseball to reach those in the inner cities creating opportunities, creating player scholarships to get the right athletes into baseball. Inner City Urban Youth Academies  just as they have in Latin American countries, an opportunity to play the game for free of charge with the best instructors and facilities money can buy. 

BDS - you got a fine pitcher. Don't sweat the small stuff, enjoy/embrace the now. He will get where he's going regardless of what others do, say or think . Remember there's 95% of HS players that WISH they were going where he's headed.

 

You know I agree  with a lot of what you posted.  I am beginning to think that my issue is not at all with hs school baseball . My issue is with this particular program that I have been a part of for the past 10 years. That's a long time. 

For instance, last season we had three SEC pitchers, 1 SEC catcher,  1 C-USA pitcher and two juco players going to a Texas juco.  I watched as this team and the players on it got worse as the season went along. The players did not enjoy it at all and could not wait for it to end.  I was  more than concerned about what would happen when these players went to school. 

As it turns out the SEC pitchers are going great, very proud of them. One is starting going deep in games as a freshman. One of the Juco kids was 0-35 last year in high school... now he is hitting .390 and 7 dingers ....I really believe the talent was there, but this coach has a way of killing it for the players.

many times the opposing teams parents will make comments about how flat and down and not really having fun ...and sadly it's true.  Of course these same players thrive in other environments be it travel ball, P5 , JUCO doesn't matter the level or the position once they leave this program they do better.  Last year with all that talent he was barely .500 and lost 12 games by a run.........

 My 2013 was the same way. coach never thought much of him , never really played him, but from summer he went Juco then D1. 

Now I have heard the coaches don't make anything for what they do, and I agree they should make more. Last weeks practice schedule. Friday short practice, sat no practice, sunday no practice, monday he calls off practice, tuesday scrimmage, and was upset about the errors in the scrimmage ( I guess) so has a 6:30 am practice Wednesday.... makes no sense.

Luckily , 2018 does not let it get to him as he is living in the moment.  It bothers him a little at the time but he seems to go over it fairly quickly.  I would be more concerned if it did not bother him at all.

So maybe its not the HS school baseball but rather the high school baseball in my town.

bacdorslider posted:

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past.

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money .

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport.

The academy route assumes a kid wants to commit to one sport. It’s what the academies demand. If a kid wants to play two sports he has to play high school ball. I’m happy all the other good athletes were there in both sports so my son could have a quality high school sports experience.

CaCO3Girl posted:

RJM posted:

2boydad posted:

I can't speak for pitcher's but for position players your HS can impact where you play at the next level. Better programs have better track records for feeding into college. It is also more competitive to make the team. Weaker programs Just the opposite.  Hence the rise in spring leagues here in Calif.  At Stanford camp I heard a Pac 12 RC tell the boys that  one of the questions he asks head coaches is how many D1 players the head coach has had come out of his HS. If it has been few or none, then he is less apt to consider a player from that school.  It's thought that weaker schools don't prepare a kid for the D1/D2 levels as well.

Everyone knew my sons wanted to play college ball at any level, and most of the players were on the team just for fun with no aspirations beyond HS ball. Some were surprised that they didn't transfer. My sons were told by more than one  local college coach that anyone going to their HS wouldn't be ready for college baseball, That the good serious players transfer. It didnt stop them, although it did limit their exposure despite being on a recognized travel squad.   They still found college spots. They played for their HS and now one is playing out of state and the other is fighting it out in JUCO. 

Just realize that the better programs have more options but it may be more difficult to make the team and get play time.  It is also who you know and who they know. 

I disagree. If you’re a D1 prospect chances are you’re on a quality travel team. You’re seeing plenty of quality competition all summer. You’re seen by a lot more colleges coaches than playing in high school. Chances are you’re quality travel program has better college contacts than the typical high school coach.

 Only if the parents can afford it, and sometimes they can’t or think it’s ridiculous to drop 5K on a 10th graders travel ball team.  Are there the hole in the wall teams that play it cheap, yes, but they aren’t well known.

If a player is a D1prospect and can help a travel team win he doesn’t have to worry about cost. Some team will find a way to cover the costs.

bacdorslider posted:

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past.

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money .

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport.

Tell that to my friends who unexpectedly won the state championship 

old_school posted:

the more I learn about college coaches and evaluators the less impressed I am.

You know what, the more that they learn about some parents of the players they are recruiting, the less impressed they are.

Works both ways, be careful.

bacdorslider posted:

Backpick25 posted:

bacdorslider posted:

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity. - I think you have to remove the emotion of being a 5%er from the equation. For an overwhelming majority of  HS players, HS baseball is THE pinnacle of their playing days. Your in HS once in a lifetime. That time should be spent as a high school student, taking in the various activities and getting involved. They will get where they're going soon enough and the ability to overcome adversity, making adjustments will only make them better.

I don't believe HS baseball was any better 30 + years ago. It was probably worse as we were left alone to simply play the game and figure it out without lessons and academies.......and  using the original BBCOR, lol, one piece spun aluminum.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past. - I really think it sends the wrong message. The kids should play the game first for the love of the game. Too much emphasis on "winning the lottery", aka, college scholarships and draft. Those opportunities will come anyway for the upper 5%. 

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  - Sure there is.......work on the mental game by battling through things a player CAN control and not worrying about the things they cannot. If a player can't handle the trials and tribulations of HS ball........college and pro ball will eat them up and spit them out.

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money . - A matter of perspective really. Yes it is for 95% of all HS players.........IF they are playing for the "lottery". Not so much IF it's for the love of the game, the competition and  comradery.

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport. - 30-40 years ago.......the separation was there. The college bound players knew where they were going and in the Spring of their Senior year, draft eligible players knew they were being considered through personal contact and scouts at the fence. Back then they were still fish in a pond..............

MLB has seen the separation differently. COST to play the game, pay to play, pay to stay (listen to ABCA Ep71). When there is concern about exclusion due to cost, you can bet change is coming.

There is a movement in baseball to reach those in the inner cities creating opportunities, creating player scholarships to get the right athletes into baseball. Inner City Urban Youth Academies  just as they have in Latin American countries, an opportunity to play the game for free of charge with the best instructors and facilities money can buy. 

BDS - you got a fine pitcher. Don't sweat the small stuff, enjoy/embrace the now. He will get where he's going regardless of what others do, say or think . Remember there's 95% of HS players that WISH they were going where he's headed.

 

You know I agree  with a lot of what you posted.  I am beginning to think that my issue is not at all with hs school baseball . My issue is with this particular program that I have been a part of for the past 10 years. That's a long time. 

For instance, last season we had three SEC pitchers, 1 SEC catcher,  1 C-USA pitcher and two juco players going to a Texas juco.  I watched as this team and the players on it got worse as the season went along. The players did not enjoy it at all and could not wait for it to end.  I was  more than concerned about what would happen when these players went to school. 

As it turns out the SEC pitchers are going great, very proud of them. One is starting going deep in games as a freshman. One of the Juco kids was 0-35 last year in high school... now he is hitting .390 and 7 dingers ....I really believe the talent was there, but this coach has a way of killing it for the players.

many times the opposing teams parents will make comments about how flat and down and not really having fun ...and sadly it's true.  Of course these same players thrive in other environments be it travel ball, P5 , JUCO doesn't matter the level or the position once they leave this program they do better.  Last year with all that talent he was barely .500 and lost 12 games by a run.........

 My 2013 was the same way. coach never thought much of him , never really played him, but from summer he went Juco then D1. 

Now I have heard the coaches don't make anything for what they do, and I agree they should make more. Last weeks practice schedule. Friday short practice, sat no practice, sunday no practice, monday he calls off practice, tuesday scrimmage, and was upset about the errors in the scrimmage ( I guess) so has a 6:30 am practice Wednesday.... makes no sense.

Luckily , 2018 does not let it get to him as he is living in the moment.  It bothers him a little at the time but he seems to go over it fairly quickly.  I would be more concerned if it did not bother him at all.

So maybe its not the HS school baseball but rather the high school baseball in my town.

I get it. We all have pride and are proud of the players accomplishments and love to see great players do big things in the game.

Attitude and effort are the things players can control. Coaches can sometimes get in the way but  seldom determine the outcome of the game if the players control the controllables.

Bottom line,  we don’t have to like the HS program but we have to respect it and the folks that run them. I won’t get into pay....... that’s another topic as there are just as many or more bad coaches as there are good. The good ones realize that baseball information is not exclusive to the level of play and seek out the best information and resources.

 If you recall, I absolutely gave props to your sons HS facility,an amazing complex. What a great facility the community has managed to assemble for the kids. They are truly blessed.

Trust me, it’s tough to watch my 2018 play HS ball with one other teammate that played travel ball. The rest played local rec league. You know what? It’s all good! I’ve come to realize, I don’t make a big deal of it, neither will he. It didn’t alter his path no more than the player expectations and a perceived bad coach altered your sons path.   It’s all good with my son who gets to play the game and I get to watch him play. That’s something I know doesn’t last forever.  

If you only look at the end goal and don’t enjoy the journey you will have missed out on a lot along the way. It can all end quickly by injury so enjoy every moment.

RJM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

RJM posted:

2boydad posted:

I can't speak for pitcher's but for position players your HS can impact where you play at the next level. Better programs have better track records for feeding into college. It is also more competitive to make the team. Weaker programs Just the opposite.  Hence the rise in spring leagues here in Calif.  At Stanford camp I heard a Pac 12 RC tell the boys that  one of the questions he asks head coaches is how many D1 players the head coach has had come out of his HS. If it has been few or none, then he is less apt to consider a player from that school.  It's thought that weaker schools don't prepare a kid for the D1/D2 levels as well.

Everyone knew my sons wanted to play college ball at any level, and most of the players were on the team just for fun with no aspirations beyond HS ball. Some were surprised that they didn't transfer. My sons were told by more than one  local college coach that anyone going to their HS wouldn't be ready for college baseball, That the good serious players transfer. It didnt stop them, although it did limit their exposure despite being on a recognized travel squad.   They still found college spots. They played for their HS and now one is playing out of state and the other is fighting it out in JUCO. 

Just realize that the better programs have more options but it may be more difficult to make the team and get play time.  It is also who you know and who they know. 

I disagree. If you’re a D1 prospect chances are you’re on a quality travel team. You’re seeing plenty of quality competition all summer. You’re seen by a lot more colleges coaches than playing in high school. Chances are you’re quality travel program has better college contacts than the typical high school coach.

 Only if the parents can afford it, and sometimes they can’t or think it’s ridiculous to drop 5K on a 10th graders travel ball team.  Are there the hole in the wall teams that play it cheap, yes, but they aren’t well known.

If a player is a D1prospect and can help a travel team win he doesn’t have to worry about cost. Some team will find a way to cover the costs.

Usually I agree with 99% of what you say, but youth baseball has become such a big business I just haven't seen this altruistic attitude.   I would call a 10th grader in the mid 80's with movement a D1 prospect and there are more than a handful that aren't playing on quality teams in GA because the cost is just too high.  Then again the cost is supposed to be high when you play 7+ PG events.  However, to be a quality team you have to play the best competition, the best competition is at PG, PG (rightly so) costs big money, so the team fees are more, many parents just can't afford it, so their kid is not on a quality team. They go to a team that plays in 1 PG event, or none.  They aren't seeing the best of the best then, so I would not call it a quality team.

Golfman25 posted:

bacdorslider posted:

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past.

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money .

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport.

Tell that to my friends who unexpectedly won the state championship 

I have no idea what that statement is supposed to mean.... tell your friends what?  Every year some team is going to win the state championship in all levels, in all states , in all sports..... Its great to win...

CAco, I understand the frustration. We all operate within a budget - some have more revenues coming in, others have different priorities, others have multiple children, etc., which limit the unlimited amount which could be spent in this race.

I understand a kid wanting to play for the best travel team; but at the cost your referencing? Wow. 

While baseball is off in the rear view mirror for our family, I will note - again - that my son didn't play on a travel ball team past 9th grade; and, all the teams he played on before that would be considered purely local. The lone exception was the fall scout ball league which played solely in Southern California and cost $80 per player (two seasons).

A college coach doesn't recruit teams; he recruits individual players.

We prioritized (1) individual skill building with good coaches (Pitching and conditioning were successes [same coach], hitting was a waste) and (2) showcase type camps (e.g., Stanford, HF, and even the local D1 camp). Virtually zero dollars went to team related stuff. 

If a kid develops individual skills which are good enough to allow him a shot at the next level, there is an entire industry - pro and college - which is devoted to finding him. It sounds cliche, but except for an outlier here and there, EVERY player with that potential is found. Our area scouts here will literally drive a few hours into the desert to watch a kid play on his HS grassless field buffeted with high winds and tumble weeds. Moreover, if a scout sees a kid who doesn't have the pro potential (yet), that scout has a complete network of college coaches covering a gamut of schools to whom he will inform about the kid. One of my son's former teammates was the area scout in western Texas; drove 100,000 miles his first year looking, looking, searching, searching. This system is totally designed to find everyone.

Parents: unlimited sums can be spent. That's fine - if you have it and choose to spend it on baseball. But, most of that most of that money isn't doing much to get you to the goal. Kids are recruited based upon their existing skills and potential; not whether the kid hits the cutoff during a game (for parents of college players: how many times do you see outfielders missing their cutoff man in college? But that outfielder can hit.) Skills are the goal, so skill building is the key. Therefore, take that money and put it where it gets maximum bang for that buck. IMO, travel teams provide the lowest bang for the buck.

(Example: my son - smallish [at least in HS] LHP got multiple offers as a result of the following venues: HF (x3), Stanford (x2), Scout Ball (x2), HS ball (a worse team could not be found, but he loved it), AND after throwing bullpens in his PCs back yard in front of scouts and coaches.)

Don't blindly follow your parental peers; the overwhelming majority are not following any thought out plan and are simply following the herd. 

Coach son drove about 500 miles yesterday to watch 2 pitchers in HS games. One was at one of top 5 HS in country, the other not sure about.

He didn't go to see who won or who lost he went to see the pitchers " stuff".  How the pitcher prepares in the pen how he interacts in the dugout with teammates, his demeanor on the mound, etc. He determines whether the player has potential  according to his standards for the program he works for.  Both of these pitchers reached out to the HC for consideration as a walk on. Both currently mid 80s. 

So for all of you trying to figure out how it works, thats how it works. And don't sell character short or playing HS BB, it's important going into the college program ( not as high on the list in pro ball) also is about all players " stuff", grades, whether he will buy in to the philosophy.

GOOSEGG,

Was replying when you were. You are 100% correct, coaches don't recruit teams, they recruit players.

I am a big believer that you don't have to be on a high profile team or break the bank doing showcases to get a scholarship. Usually it just becomes an excuse when the parent sees others getting offers early. I would concentrate on what's important, which might mean contacting programs that fit the players skills. Way to many want to play on programs that they will get lost at. Consider it a favor that any coach from any top conferences hasn't offered, it usually doesnt turn out well.

JMO

All,

Paying big $$ to play for teams attending big events means zip, if you don't understand how to maneuver/market Johnny before, during, and after the events. 

The youth sports industry focuses on their clients: PARENTS

Recruiters and Scouts are looking for ATHELETES. 

Pay $$ for DEVELOPMENT of skills, SAT prep, Baseball Etiquette.

My wife and I guide families (no fees) through the process based on a request of our Johnny, who noticed the fall off of good players as he advanced. 

We're in the NE which has its weather challenges and baseball was a tircheary sport for him.

We had no guide and attended strategic events starting in the Summer of his Sophomore year. 

Networked him on to higher level tournament teams with minimal cost ($1,000-$1,500) per Summer for 2 teams. Used 1.5 months of vacation during Junior Summer.

Johnny didn't play for the $3,500 local (travel/tourney) teams because they weren't getting good draws at events ( followed the teams on line 2 years prior). Also noticed where local players attended College (as fans mostly). 

Parents/advisors: you have one client. If you are following the local heard and find yourself chirping about what your doing with Johnny with other parents, you're probably going to miss opportunities within your grasp.

1) Attend a weekend home series of any College your interested in. Alternately, stay local at the same level and go during the week to see the practice regimen, coach interaction, player ethic.

2) Focus on Development and play indicidual sports that use different muscles and feed hand/eye. Squash, tennis, ping pong, bowling. Plus, it's fun to do away from the game when traveling.

3) PM for more thoughts that differ from the norm.

For the Record: Our Johnny attended D1-SEC and was drafted high and is now in 2 minor league season. Position player that was not recruited by any other College and played Ice Hockey as primary sport until Sophomore year.

And yes, he played for his HS team with Gaels of 30 mph, temporary back stop, no stands, and Fog in Rhode Island.

Every now and then his HS pals are on Snapchat in the stands and after his games in the SEC and Midwest.

HS baseball- Important for all of the reasons mentioned through this thread. 

Its our past-time for goodness sake

CaCO3Girl posted:

RJM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

RJM posted:

2boydad posted:

I can't speak for pitcher's but for position players your HS can impact where you play at the next level. Better programs have better track records for feeding into college. It is also more competitive to make the team. Weaker programs Just the opposite.  Hence the rise in spring leagues here in Calif.  At Stanford camp I heard a Pac 12 RC tell the boys that  one of the questions he asks head coaches is how many D1 players the head coach has had come out of his HS. If it has been few or none, then he is less apt to consider a player from that school.  It's thought that weaker schools don't prepare a kid for the D1/D2 levels as well.

Everyone knew my sons wanted to play college ball at any level, and most of the players were on the team just for fun with no aspirations beyond HS ball. Some were surprised that they didn't transfer. My sons were told by more than one  local college coach that anyone going to their HS wouldn't be ready for college baseball, That the good serious players transfer. It didnt stop them, although it did limit their exposure despite being on a recognized travel squad.   They still found college spots. They played for their HS and now one is playing out of state and the other is fighting it out in JUCO. 

Just realize that the better programs have more options but it may be more difficult to make the team and get play time.  It is also who you know and who they know. 

I disagree. If you’re a D1 prospect chances are you’re on a quality travel team. You’re seeing plenty of quality competition all summer. You’re seen by a lot more colleges coaches than playing in high school. Chances are you’re quality travel program has better college contacts than the typical high school coach.

 Only if the parents can afford it, and sometimes they can’t or think it’s ridiculous to drop 5K on a 10th graders travel ball team.  Are there the hole in the wall teams that play it cheap, yes, but they aren’t well known.

If a player is a D1prospect and can help a travel team win he doesn’t have to worry about cost. Some team will find a way to cover the costs.

Usually I agree with 99% of what you say, but youth baseball has become such a big business I just haven't seen this altruistic attitude.   I would call a 10th grader in the mid 80's with movement a D1 prospect and there are more than a handful that aren't playing on quality teams in GA because the cost is just too high.  Then again the cost is supposed to be high when you play 7+ PG events.  However, to be a quality team you have to play the best competition, the best competition is at PG, PG (rightly so) costs big money, so the team fees are more, many parents just can't afford it, so their kid is not on a quality team. They go to a team that plays in 1 PG event, or none.  They aren't seeing the best of the best then, so I would not call it a quality team.

The kid who makes a difference helps bring in more paying customers. The really good teams mostly create rosters by invite. But I’ve seen demand create B teams. Regardless of what I think of B and C teams it’s more paying customers. 

Winning travel teams don’t make top players. Top players make travel teams win. I’m pro travel. It was a great experience. But so was high school ball. I figure if a talented kid wants to play college ball at the right level he will find a way to make it happen regardless of where he plays. 

Note: “Wants” does not mean “wishes.” A player can wish all he wants and nothing will happen. Wanting something to happen involves effort. For some, more effort than others.

Why play high school sports?

I’ve been watching a lot of the high school state tournament basketball. In an interview a kid from the state championship team seemed overwhelmed by winning. When asked the kid said all he ever wanted to do was win the state championship. Now that he’s done it he realizes it’s more about the teammates he’s had, some since he was playing rec ball who he will never play with again.

Embrace the moment!

My sons new coaches came in with a no cut policy. They are trying to build up the program and want as many kids as possible. So that left us with some pretty bad players. One kid a senior who had never touched a baseball or bat before coming out. He said he had went all through HS and never really did anything and wanted to do at least one thing. My son, the only kid on the entire team that plays any kind of ball during the summer, and the only kid that has any dream of playing beyond HS, and the one kid who by others beliefs should want to transfer to a better program, took to this kid over the fall and winter workouts. They worked on hitting almost everyday. So first scrimmage of the year son goes 3 innings and K'd all 9 batters he faced. The game went 10 or 11 innings and everyone played. So in the last innining the aforementioned kid comes to the plate and on the first live pitch he had ever seen in his life, hits it about 375 to dead center on a field with a 390 fence hahaha. Now which do you think my son was most proud of. His performance or this kids at bat. Well the centerfielder camped under it for the out and as the kid ran through first and headed back to the dug out my son tackled him on the field lol. 

Our team isn't any good. Our coaches don't know a lot about baseball. Teachers kids play that shouldn't. Boosters kids play that shouldn't. But my son loves to play and has a blast on the team. The only thing stopping a kid from enjoying HS baseball is the kid himself.  Us parents need to remember to just shut up and not tell the kid he isn't having any fun. Yes I have to tell my self that a lot. 

As for the smaller lesser known programs. We're a tiny little nothing middle of no where school in a district full of tiny little nothing middle of no where schools. Most schools have at least one starter that can barely catch a ball. Our coaches are history, English, and science teaches who never played past HS if the even played HS. Yet our district still sends players to D1 programs every year. Including the occasional top 25 programs. The whole I didnt get recruited because of the HS I played for is an excuse nothing more. 

bacdorslider posted:

Backpick25 posted:

bacdorslider posted:

I would have rather-ed PG start a league in the spring with 8 teams playing at Lake Point than to play HS baseball.  HS baseball had it's place in the past.  As others have said the trend is for the more advanced player to get into soccer club, Baseball Academy  and so on.  Every tries to deal with HS baseball because the season is short. it's become a necessary evil for some players. And before everyone gets their nose out of joint removing the elite player   actually would make high school baseball what it should be a fun school activity. - I think you have to remove the emotion of being a 5%er from the equation. For an overwhelming majority of  HS players, HS baseball is THE pinnacle of their playing days. Your in HS once in a lifetime. That time should be spent as a high school student, taking in the various activities and getting involved. They will get where they're going soon enough and the ability to overcome adversity, making adjustments will only make them better.

I don't believe HS baseball was any better 30 + years ago. It was probably worse as we were left alone to simply play the game and figure it out without lessons and academies.......and  using the original BBCOR, lol, one piece spun aluminum.

Now I will give you the playing for your school, friends, city etc.... But for most elite players coming from populated areas, and having played travel ball since birth, the feelings are just not as strong for that as it might have been in the past. - I really think it sends the wrong message. The kids should play the game first for the love of the game. Too much emphasis on "winning the lottery", aka, college scholarships and draft. Those opportunities will come anyway for the upper 5%. 

There is no way that an elite player can get better playing HS baseball.  He is only making the others better and opening himself up for injury.   We  have them play travel ball in the summer for competition, the best they can play against and then bring them right back to mediocrity.  - Sure there is.......work on the mental game by battling through things a player CAN control and not worrying about the things they cannot. If a player can't handle the trials and tribulations of HS ball........college and pro ball will eat them up and spit them out.

I have literally heard 2018's HS coach tell parents in a parent meeting that travel ball is a big waste of money . - A matter of perspective really. Yes it is for 95% of all HS players.........IF they are playing for the "lottery". Not so much IF it's for the love of the game, the competition and  comradery.

It's no one's fault really... just the separation within the  sport. - 30-40 years ago.......the separation was there. The college bound players knew where they were going and in the Spring of their Senior year, draft eligible players knew they were being considered through personal contact and scouts at the fence. Back then they were still fish in a pond..............

MLB has seen the separation differently. COST to play the game, pay to play, pay to stay (listen to ABCA Ep71). When there is concern about exclusion due to cost, you can bet change is coming.

There is a movement in baseball to reach those in the inner cities creating opportunities, creating player scholarships to get the right athletes into baseball. Inner City Urban Youth Academies  just as they have in Latin American countries, an opportunity to play the game for free of charge with the best instructors and facilities money can buy. 

BDS - you got a fine pitcher. Don't sweat the small stuff, enjoy/embrace the now. He will get where he's going regardless of what others do, say or think . Remember there's 95% of HS players that WISH they were going where he's headed.

 

You know I agree  with a lot of what you posted.  I am beginning to think that my issue is not at all with hs school baseball . My issue is with this particular program that I have been a part of for the past 10 years. That's a long time. 

For instance, last season we had three SEC pitchers, 1 SEC catcher,  1 C-USA pitcher and two juco players going to a Texas juco.  I watched as this team and the players on it got worse as the season went along. The players did not enjoy it at all and could not wait for it to end.  I was  more than concerned about what would happen when these players went to school. 

As it turns out the SEC pitchers are going great, very proud of them. One is starting going deep in games as a freshman. One of the Juco kids was 0-35 last year in high school... now he is hitting .390 and 7 dingers ....I really believe the talent was there, but this coach has a way of killing it for the players.

many times the opposing teams parents will make comments about how flat and down and not really having fun ...and sadly it's true.  Of course these same players thrive in other environments be it travel ball, P5 , JUCO doesn't matter the level or the position once they leave this program they do better.  Last year with all that talent he was barely .500 and lost 12 games by a run.........

 My 2013 was the same way. coach never thought much of him , never really played him, but from summer he went Juco then D1. 

Now I have heard the coaches don't make anything for what they do, and I agree they should make more. Last weeks practice schedule. Friday short practice, sat no practice, sunday no practice, monday he calls off practice, tuesday scrimmage, and was upset about the errors in the scrimmage ( I guess) so has a 6:30 am practice Wednesday.... makes no sense.

Luckily , 2018 does not let it get to him as he is living in the moment.  It bothers him a little at the time but he seems to go over it fairly quickly.  I would be more concerned if it did not bother him at all.

So maybe its not the HS school baseball but rather the high school baseball in my town.

I was at a college camp this fall and a bunch of us dads were sitting around talking baseball. One of the topics was how shocked we all were that your sons program didn't make it out of the district with all that talent. Heck I don't know you or anyone in that program and I feel frustrated hahahaha. I can't imagine how yaw feel. 

Scotty83 posted:

My sons new coaches came in with a no cut policy. They are trying to build up the program and want as many kids as possible. So that left us with some pretty bad players. One kid a senior who had never touched a baseball or bat before coming out. He said he had went all through HS and never really did anything and wanted to do at least one thing. My son, the only kid on the entire team that plays any kind of ball during the summer, and the only kid that has any dream of playing beyond HS, and the one kid who by others beliefs should want to transfer to a better program, took to this kid over the fall and winter workouts. They worked on hitting almost everyday. So first scrimmage of the year son goes 3 innings and K'd all 9 batters he faced. The game went 10 or 11 innings and everyone played. So in the last innining the aforementioned kid comes to the plate and on the first live pitch he had ever seen in his life, hits it about 375 to dead center on a field with a 390 fence hahaha. Now which do you think my son was most proud of. His performance or this kids at bat. Well the centerfielder camped under it for the out and as the kid ran through first and headed back to the dug out my son tackled him on the field lol. 

Our team isn't any good. Our coaches don't know a lot about baseball. Teachers kids play that shouldn't. Boosters kids play that shouldn't. But my son loves to play and has a blast on the team. The only thing stopping a kid from enjoying HS baseball is the kid himself.  Us parents need to remember to just shut up and not tell the kid he isn't having any fun. Yes I have to tell my self that a lot. 

As for the smaller lesser known programs. We're a tiny little nothing middle of no where school in a district full of tiny little nothing middle of no where schools. Most schools have at least one starter that can barely catch a ball. Our coaches are history, English, and science teaches who never played past HS if the even played HS. Yet our district still sends players to D1 programs every year. Including the occasional top 25 programs. The whole I didnt get recruited because of the HS I played for is an excuse nothing more. 

Exactly!!!!!

Scotty83 posted:

My sons new coaches came in with a no cut policy. They are trying to build up the program and want as many kids as possible. So that left us with some pretty bad players. One kid a senior who had never touched a baseball or bat before coming out. He said he had went all through HS and never really did anything and wanted to do at least one thing. My son, the only kid on the entire team that plays any kind of ball during the summer, and the only kid that has any dream of playing beyond HS, and the one kid who by others beliefs should want to transfer to a better program, took to this kid over the fall and winter workouts. They worked on hitting almost everyday. So first scrimmage of the year son goes 3 innings and K'd all 9 batters he faced. The game went 10 or 11 innings and everyone played. So in the last innining the aforementioned kid comes to the plate and on the first live pitch he had ever seen in his life, hits it about 375 to dead center on a field with a 390 fence hahaha. Now which do you think my son was most proud of. His performance or this kids at bat. Well the centerfielder camped under it for the out and as the kid ran through first and headed back to the dug out my son tackled him on the field lol. 

Our team isn't any good. Our coaches don't know a lot about baseball. Teachers kids play that shouldn't. Boosters kids play that shouldn't. But my son loves to play and has a blast on the team. The only thing stopping a kid from enjoying HS baseball is the kid himself.  Us parents need to remember to just shut up and not tell the kid he isn't having any fun. Yes I have to tell my self that a lot. 

As for the smaller lesser known programs. We're a tiny little nothing middle of no where school in a district full of tiny little nothing middle of no where schools. Most schools have at least one starter that can barely catch a ball. Our coaches are history, English, and science teaches who never played past HS if the even played HS. Yet our district still sends players to D1 programs every year. Including the occasional top 25 programs. The whole I didnt get recruited because of the HS I played for is an excuse nothing more. 

I’ve always felt more kids would have a good time playing sports if their parents would stop telling them they’re not having a good time.

I remember my father asking me about my junior high football team if Blood, Sweat and Tears was a band or the name of our team.

We only had four players good enough to play in high school. Only one was a lineman. The other three of us ran for our lives. I was an option QB with no blocking. I didn’t cut upfield often. My job was to pitch the ball at the last second as I got drilled in the chest. We went 1-7. Ironically our only win was against Our Ladies. I think the entire name was Our Lady of the Immacualte Conception. In other words we were good enough to beat a pregnant lady by a touchdown.

The four of us enjoyed the struggle. It upped our game mentally. We played for a state champion high school team (fed by five junior highs).

Things I over heard at last nights a high school game....  I do not know what some of these things mean.....

" did you see that field umpires head?"   " that kids a tool"  "Well I guess we will have to practice that so more. " he launch that pup"  "really dude you a hacker for sure"?  "shut up sophomore "   after the game, during the congratulatory hand shake..."  good game, good game, good game, hey good hit,  hey do ya'll play fortnite?" 

I have been missing out on all the free comedy by actually watching the field when I should have been watching the dugout... the dugout is comedy gold.

https://www.google.com/amp/www...94-9a22-c3685b980edf

bacdorslider posted:

Things I over heard at last nights a high school game....  I do not know what some of these things mean.....

" did you see that field umpires head?"   " that kids a tool"  "Well I guess we will have to practice that so more. " he launch that pup"  "really dude you a hacker for sure"?  "shut up sophomore "   after the game, during the congratulatory hand shake..."  good game, good game, good game, hey good hit,  hey do ya'll play fortnite?" 

I have been missing out on all the free comedy by actually watching the field when I should have been watching the dugout... the dugout is comedy gold.

You should hear a college team dugout........

I've come around on this topic in a couple of months.

Increasingly in Wisconsin we are seeing high school players not playing for their high school and instead playing in a Travel Spring League.  2 months ago I would have said it was a mistake.  Now, I understand it.

The reality is, here in Wisconsin, because of weather related issues, the "season" gets condensed into 3-4 weeks.  Most of April gets rained out or snowed out, or you are playing in 40 degree weather.

Then in May, because of all the makeup games, you are playing 5-7 games a week.  Injury concerns are very real, especially concerns about arms and kids going from pitching 90+ pitches to then playing a defensive position that same day in a double header, or the next day.  This concern is increased because of several weeks of mostly practicing in a high school gym without proper arm care.  March games are nonexistent.  Outdoor practices in March or April are exceedingly rare.  Because of all the games in May, outdoor practices in that month are rare too.

Meanwhile, in the Travel Spring League.  There are indoor facilities that can accommodate games inside.  Players from March through April can get in 26 games on weekends while having the weekdays open to train.

It is a tough decision, but a decision I respect.  It doesn't even factor in whether a program or the competition is quality or not, whether a high school coach is inept or not.  Players from this state are trying to compete with kids from Baseball hotbeds in order to get a chance to play at the next level, and the injury risks are high trying to play so much in 40 degree weather on wet fields and condensing so many games into a short amount of time.  

Times are changing quickly in youth Baseball, and in this state this is one of those things that is changing.  A player who is very serious about Baseball has to make tough choices in Wisconsin.  

3and2Fastball,

You know your area and market best.   Get a lot of facts (which is sounds like you've done) and talk to people who've done it.   Then make a decision on what to do.   As I've said on HSBBWeb before there are so many paths to get to the same goal.  Your son has to find his path.  My son made his own path despite many obstacles and tough decisions.  Stick with what make sense and what your son wants to do....that is the key.   BTW...the college coaches that recruited my son appreciated him for it. 

Good luck! 

3and2Fastball posted:

I've come around on this topic in a couple of months.

Increasingly in Wisconsin we are seeing high school players not playing for their high school and instead playing in a Travel Spring League.  2 months ago I would have said it was a mistake.  Now, I understand it.

The reality is, here in Wisconsin, because of weather related issues, the "season" gets condensed into 3-4 weeks.  Most of April gets rained out or snowed out, or you are playing in 40 degree weather.

Then in May, because of all the makeup games, you are playing 5-7 games a week.  Injury concerns are very real, especially concerns about arms and kids going from pitching 90+ pitches to then playing a defensive position that same day in a double header, or the next day.  This concern is increased because of several weeks of mostly practicing in a high school gym without proper arm care.  March games are nonexistent.  Outdoor practices in March or April are exceedingly rare.  Because of all the games in May, outdoor practices in that month are rare too.

Meanwhile, in the Travel Spring League.  There are indoor facilities that can accommodate games inside.  Players from March through April can get in 26 games on weekends while having the weekdays open to train.

It is a tough decision, but a decision I respect.  It doesn't even factor in whether a program or the competition is quality or not, whether a high school coach is inept or not.  Players from this state are trying to compete with kids from Baseball hotbeds in order to get a chance to play at the next level, and the injury risks are high trying to play so much in 40 degree weather on wet fields and condensing so many games into a short amount of time.  

Times are changing quickly in youth Baseball, and in this state this is one of those things that is changing.  A player who is very serious about Baseball has to make tough choices in Wisconsin.  

Same weather situation here in Chicagoland. It is impossible some weeks to get games in and if they do it is miserable weather to try to play good baseball. We have thought a lot about having my 2020 play spring travel in Wisconsin. The game schedule where you are guaranteed to play in good conditions and the fact that the schedule allows for homework and getting to get strength and speed workouts during the week are big draws for me. The thing that has kept us from making the jump from HS to spring travel is my son is a V starter and plays every inning of every V game while playing with friends. This plus the 5 min drive to the school versus the 1 hour drive each way to get to facilities where we can play in Wisconsin have kept us home. It seems like more and more kids from around here are migrating toward spring travel and choosing not to play HS though. We still have it as a very viable option in our minds for the next two years. I am interested to hear from players who did make the jump and how they liked it?

JA'CRISPY -  yes, the Hitters Spring League in the Milwaukee area.  I've talked to a few players and their parents who have played in that league (and are in it this spring) and they love it.  Good competition, well organized, the ability  to get games in inside.  In mid April they had already gotten in 20+ games where the high schools had only gotten in 3.  With an entire month's worth of games to play.  The games draw college scouts as well as MLB scouts.

Factor in the time limitations of a teenager.  Instead of attending a 2 hour practice in the high school gym Monday-Friday a kid has that time to lift & get in homework and if you are a member of a Indoor Travel Ball facility like we are, time to get in individual BP, glove work, sprint work, etc...

3and2Fastball posted:

 

Factor in the time limitations of a teenager.  Instead of attending a 2 hour practice in the high school gym Monday-Friday a kid has that time to lift & get in homework and if you are a member of a Indoor Travel Ball facility like we are, time to get in individual BP, glove work, sprint work, etc...

If a HS kid has "time limitations" that make it tough to practice for 2 hours M-F he'd better figure it out if he has any thoughts of playing in college lol.   3 hour practices (minimum), lifting, study table for freshman........weekday game that means leaving school at 10am and getting back at 9pm.  Weekend trip that leaves Thursday afternoon or Friday morning and getting back Monday morning at 4am with class at 8.   And yes, there is still class and a lot more homework than HS to fit in.    

3and2Fastball posted:

The games draw college scouts as well as MLB scouts.

 

3 and 2 I agree with everything you said plus Hitters definitely draw the above.  That's where we would play if we decide to go that way with spring travel. I am glad that those players are enjoying moving to spring travel instead of HS. This carries some weight in my mind and sounds like yours as well. Three games so far this year in HS would be brutal and would be hard to say that it is worth it. This year I was leaning more toward going to travel while my son wanted to keep playing with the HS and his buddies. As long as he is happy we will probably keep going in HS but I am glad we now have viable choices to make in this area if he ever changes his mind.

Buckeye -  more that in addition to the 2 hour practices at the high school, a kid who is preparing for D1 Baseball, high level travel ball and showcases also needs another 2+ hours (plus transportation time) to get in weightlifting, individual batting practice and glove work.  Factor in the desire/need to get a 3.6+ GPA.  Can't skimp on sleep and proper nutrition as that could/would stunt growth.   

Strongly agree that any kid lacking the motivation to put in extra work has an easy decision.  Just do the bare minimum, go to team practice, play video games and forget about college Baseball.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

 

Factor in the time limitations of a teenager.  Instead of attending a 2 hour practice in the high school gym Monday-Friday a kid has that time to lift & get in homework and if you are a member of a Indoor Travel Ball facility like we are, time to get in individual BP, glove work, sprint work, etc...

If a HS kid has "time limitations" that make it tough to practice for 2 hours M-F he'd better figure it out if he has any thoughts of playing in college lol.   3 hour practices (minimum), lifting, study table for freshman........weekday game that means leaving school at 10am and getting back at 9pm.  Weekend trip that leaves Thursday afternoon or Friday morning and getting back Monday morning at 4am with class at 8.   And yes, there is still class and a lot more homework than HS to fit in.    

I definitely agree with that. My 2017 son had early early morning college practice this spring. He had to wake up at 4am to make it to the field by 430 am to start. Once finished had to get to 8 am classes. I have never heard or seen him more tired in his life. I have given my younger son the "this is nothing compared to college"  speech many times but as a parent that still has to drive a 15yo around it is nice to have some free time in my life as well.

3and2Fastball posted:

I've come around on this topic in a couple of months.

Increasingly in Wisconsin we are seeing high school players not playing for their high school and instead playing in a Travel Spring League.  2 months ago I would have said it was a mistake.  Now, I understand it.

The reality is, here in Wisconsin, because of weather related issues, the "season" gets condensed into 3-4 weeks.  Most of April gets rained out or snowed out, or you are playing in 40 degree weather.

Then in May, because of all the makeup games, you are playing 5-7 games a week.  Injury concerns are very real, especially concerns about arms and kids going from pitching 90+ pitches to then playing a defensive position that same day in a double header, or the next day.  This concern is increased because of several weeks of mostly practicing in a high school gym without proper arm care.  March games are nonexistent.  Outdoor practices in March or April are exceedingly rare.  Because of all the games in May, outdoor practices in that month are rare too.

Meanwhile, in the Travel Spring League.  There are indoor facilities that can accommodate games inside.  Players from March through April can get in 26 games on weekends while having the weekdays open to train.

It is a tough decision, but a decision I respect.  It doesn't even factor in whether a program or the competition is quality or not, whether a high school coach is inept or not.  Players from this state are trying to compete with kids from Baseball hotbeds in order to get a chance to play at the next level, and the injury risks are high trying to play so much in 40 degree weather on wet fields and condensing so many games into a short amount of time.  

Times are changing quickly in youth Baseball, and in this state this is one of those things that is changing.  A player who is very serious about Baseball has to make tough choices in Wisconsin.  

Two words: Summer baseball. It's sunny and 80 for our pre-season scrimmages. Rain will be a factor in our season that starts Memorial Day weekend, but snow won't (probably).

3and2Fastball posted:

I've come around on this topic in a couple of months.

Increasingly in Wisconsin we are seeing high school players not playing for their high school and instead playing in a Travel Spring League.  2 months ago I would have said it was a mistake.  Now, I understand it.

The reality is, here in Wisconsin, because of weather related issues, the "season" gets condensed into 3-4 weeks.  Most of April gets rained out or snowed out, or you are playing in 40 degree weather.

Then in May, because of all the makeup games, you are playing 5-7 games a week.  Injury concerns are very real, especially concerns about arms and kids going from pitching 90+ pitches to then playing a defensive position that same day in a double header, or the next day.  This concern is increased because of several weeks of mostly practicing in a high school gym without proper arm care.  March games are nonexistent.  Outdoor practices in March or April are exceedingly rare.  Because of all the games in May, outdoor practices in that month are rare too.

Meanwhile, in the Travel Spring League.  There are indoor facilities that can accommodate games inside.  Players from March through April can get in 26 games on weekends while having the weekdays open to train.

It is a tough decision, but a decision I respect.  It doesn't even factor in whether a program or the competition is quality or not, whether a high school coach is inept or not.  Players from this state are trying to compete with kids from Baseball hotbeds in order to get a chance to play at the next level, and the injury risks are high trying to play so much in 40 degree weather on wet fields and condensing so many games into a short amount of time.  

Times are changing quickly in youth Baseball, and in this state this is one of those things that is changing.  A player who is very serious about Baseball has to make tough choices in Wisconsin.  

3and2, I get what you are saying and there are many credible points.  Here's one irony to consider, though...  Part of what you are proposing is for a kid to avoid the season that is shortened by weather, avoid injury potential, due in part to condensing games to fit in the season, etc., so that a player can focus on getting better and stronger for the opportunity to play in college.  Well, guess what...  colleges all over the Plains, Midwest, Northeast, etc., deal with exactly the same thing.  Tons of rainouts and snow cancellations and then condensed schedule that was already too heavy in spots, so they are cramming games in less-than-desirable conditions, taxing arms, etc.  I know, there are more arms.  But in the heat of the battle, the few best arms are going to be called on over and over again.  Son is in WV coaching a college team.  Even there... every time this season he sent a snap of game action their was either snow on the surrounding ground or he was trotting over to his 1st base coach spot in his winter parka and gloves.  This was all the way into April this year.

I do think this whole thread is a great resource where most of the pro's and con's are discussed in some detail.

Also, I would love to see a pic of the indoor facility that allows for games to be played!

Iowamom23 posted:

Two words: Summer baseball. It's sunny and 80 for our pre-season scrimmages. Rain will be a factor in our season that starts Memorial Day weekend, but snow won't (probably).

I apologize in advance if you have answered this in a previous thread, but how does Iowa's HS summer season affect player's availability for travel ball during the summer? 

Couldn't find a picture of Hitters' facility, but here is Stiks, in the Milwaukee suburbs.  Similar facility.  40 foot ceilings, full size infield.  Not perfect for indoor games, especially for outfielders (!), but better than not being able to play, or playing outdoors in 39 degree weather.

I would love to see a pic of the indoor facility that allows for games to be played!

Diamond Nation in Flemington NJ puts up a dome in the winter. It’s over a full size field. I’m guessing if someone really crushed a moonshot homer it might hit the sloped roof before it goes over the fence. I have no idea if how the dome is inflated affects how far the ball sails.

There is talk about a few people building domed stadiums in southern Wisconsin.  So far it is just talk, but it would definitely change the game for high school sports in being able to accommodate not just a full size Baseball field but could also host soccer games, LaCrosse etc... It would be a great way for the high school programs to "steal back" athletes from Spring Travel.

3and2Fastball posted:

Couldn't find a picture of Hitters' facility, but here is Stiks, in the Milwaukee suburbs.  Similar facility.  40 foot ceilings, full size infield.  Not perfect for indoor games, especially for outfielders (!), but better than not being able to play, or playing outdoors in 39 degree weather.

Oh, OK.  This is really cool but I thought when you said "can accommodate games inside", I thought you meant actual games.

Ok, a few things.  As our season starts to wind down, it's be a real crap show.  Even so, I am still leaning play for HS.  But can perfectly understand why one would choose not to.  

Northern springs are always an issue.  But this spring was an aberration.  In the past we have had a few good days, followed by a few bad days, followed by a few good.  So the disruptions were minimal.  This season, it was weeks at a time.  So, like most it's at all games all the time as there are no open dates left.  Makes it difficult to practice and for guys to show what they got.  In our case, we are regressing.  I wouldn't use weather to make my decision.  

The facility thing is probably doable in a cheaper state like Wisconsin.  Here in IL, forget it.  A few have tried.  Ended up bankrupt.  Places are packed the winter.  Summer it's a ghost town, but the bills still need to be paid.  What they could potentially do however, is a HS field complex like Lakepoint.  4 HS sized field with turf and lights.  It would all schools to play even if it rained during the day.  We get knocked out by the 3:00 storm that rolls thru and it's perfect weather by 4:00.  But the field is too wet to play.  

Healthquest Sports Dome at Diamond Nation

Flemington, NJ

https://vimeo.com/35835322

While it appears there isn't an outfield, look closely. The fence around the infield is removable. There’s a full outfield beind the partition. In the spring they collapse the dome and remove it.