Dropping ball on purpose to get a double play

14u game. Inexperienced Umpires.

man if 1st, one out. Soft line out to 2nd. He catches, then drops the ball almost immediately, and throws to second.  The ball is relayed to 1st to get the hitter, who is confused, and not running hard, even though bench is screaming at him to run. FU calls him out at 1st. Runner is standing on 1st, also, because he thought the ball would be, and was, caught.

  Fielding team trots off the field and gets ready to bat. Finally, a coach from the other team kicks up a fuss. Umpires reverse call, saying you can't intentionally drop the ball to create a DP situation, though they were none to sure of things.

 

Apparently it would have been OK, if he had knocked the ball down with the outside of his glove?

  

Original Post

The umpires got it wrong. It was very alert of the fielder to notice the hitter didn't run and dropped the ball. The only way the umpires could reverse this call is to claim the fielder had the ball in his glove long enough to claim the hitter was out and he dropped the ball in transfer to his hand.

Judgement call as to if it was dropped intentionally or not. 

However ... You cannot intentionally drop a ball.  Immediate dead ball. batter out. Runner returns to base at TOP.

Rule 5 Dead Ball - Suspension of Play SECTION 1 DEAD BALL ART. 1 . . . Ball becomes dead immediately when:

j. an infielder intentionally drops a fair fly, fair line drive or fair bunt in flight with at least first base occupied and with less than two outs.

 

57special posted:

14u game. Inexperienced Umpires.

man if 1st, one out. Soft line out to 2nd. He catches, then drops the ball almost immediately, and throws to second.  The ball is relayed to 1st to get the hitter, who is confused, and not running hard, even though bench is screaming at him to run. FU calls him out at 1st. Runner is standing on 1st, also, because he thought the ball would be, and was, caught.

  Fielding team trots off the field and gets ready to bat. Finally, a coach from the other team kicks up a fuss. Umpires reverse call, saying you can't intentionally drop the ball to create a DP situation, though they were none to sure of things.

 

Apparently it would have been OK, if he had knocked the ball down with the outside of his glove?

  

First, I wouldn't use the word "catches" -- once a ball is caught, it's caught and the batter is out.

Second, the "outside of the glove" has nothing to do with this.  It all has to do with whether the ball is "intentionally dropped" (as seems to be the case in what you are describing) or "allowed to fall untouched."  In the former, the ball is dead, the batter is out and the runners return.  In the latter, the ball is still live.

In the end, the umpires appeared to get it right -- and they were right to reverse it and put R1 back on base.

Here's the OBR wording (A batter is out when ...):

(12) An infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball or line
drive, with first, first and second, first and third, or first,
second and third base occupied before two are out. The
ball is dead and runner or runners shall return to their
original base or bases;
APPROVED RULING: In this situation, the batter is
not out if the infielder permits the ball to drop
untouched to the ground, except when the Infield Fly
rule applies.

I have runner is safe and batter is out on the catch. 

NFHS Fed rules 5-1-1.j -- "an infielder intentionally drops a fair fly, fair line drive or fair bunt in flight with at least first base occupied and with less than two outs."

Granted the leagues around my area use the state high school rule book with a few exceptions. This not being an exception.

They eventually got it right. Where they confused the situation was not calling an out right away on the "catch", AND calling an out when the ball was thrown to 1st(with the existing base runner already standing on it).

Have to admit that I loved the thinking of the 2nd baseman. It's a joy to be around players like him who are completely into the game. Once he gets his growth spurt(his Dad is an athletic 6'2") he's going to be a really good player.

noumpere posted:


Here's the OBR wording (A batter is out when ...):

(12) An infielder intentionally drops a fair fly ball or line
drive, with first, first and second, first and third, or first,
second and third base occupied before two are out. The
ball is dead and runner or runners shall return to their
original base or bases;
APPROVED RULING: In this situation, the batter is
not out if the infielder permits the ball to drop
untouched to the ground, except when the Infield Fly
rule applies.

Smart baseball.

https://youtu.be/vJDH43XBmxM

Different topic, but on Sunday in my son's D1 game.....bases loaded, 2 outs.   Pop up in the IF between 3B and SS.  Shortstop is camped under it...going to be an easy play.   From somewhere....either umpire or otherwise we hear "infield fly, batter's out".   Keep in mind I am down the RF line probably 50-60' past 1B....and I clearly hear it...as did the guy next to me.  Sounded like it came directly from the home plate ump....but no way to be sure.  We thought maybe visiting team (3B dugout) said it....but ump didn't say anything to them after the play.  Only other possibility was a visiting fan (there were about 4) in the 3B bleachers.   Asked son about it after the game.  He was in 1B dugout....said he didn't hear it, but that SS did as he was waiting for ball to come down.       No, I can't tell you what happened....we never found out where the call came from.   Just another odd situation in what has become a very long, drug out season for the kid.  3 more games this weekend and it's off to summer league...and getting back to some fun on the diamond 

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Different topic, but on Sunday in my son's D1 game.....bases loaded, 2 outs.   Pop up in the IF between 3B and SS.  Shortstop is camped under it...going to be an easy play.   From somewhere....either umpire or otherwise we hear "infield fly, batter's out".   Keep in mind I am down the RF line probably 50-60' past 1B....and I clearly hear it...as did the guy next to me.  Sounded like it came directly from the home plate ump....but no way to be sure.  We thought maybe visiting team (3B dugout) said it....but ump didn't say anything to them after the play.  Only other possibility was a visiting fan (there were about 4) in the 3B bleachers.   Asked son about it after the game.  He was in 1B dugout....said he didn't hear it, but that SS did as he was waiting for ball to come down.       No, I can't tell you what happened....we never found out where the call came from.   Just another odd situation in what has become a very long, drug out season for the kid.  3 more games this weekend and it's off to summer league...and getting back to some fun on the diamond 

Could have been anyone. In one of my Saturday games, with one out and R2, I yelled "INFI..." and almost choked on my gum closing my mouth so quickly.

57special posted:

14u game. Inexperienced Umpires.

man if 1st, one out. Soft line out to 2nd. He catches, then drops the ball almost immediately, and throws to second.  The ball is relayed to 1st to get the hitter, who is confused, and not running hard, even though bench is screaming at him to run. FU calls him out at 1st. Runner is standing on 1st, also, because he thought the ball would be, and was, caught.

  Fielding team trots off the field and gets ready to bat. Finally, a coach from the other team kicks up a fuss. Umpires reverse call, saying you can't intentionally drop the ball to create a DP situation, though they were none to sure of things.

 

Apparently it would have been OK, if he had knocked the ball down with the outside of his glove?

  

Gotta fake like you lose it in the sun/lights at the last second. Sells it a lot better than the intentional clank or letting it land at your feet.

And when you pick up the ball go 1 not 2.

No need to fake it getting lost ... fielder is permitted to let it drop untouched.

SECTION 4 RUNNER IS OUT ART. 1 . . . The batter-runner is out when:

c. his fair fly, fair line drive or fair bunt in flight is intentionally dropped by an infielder with at least first base occupied and before there are two outs. The ball is dead and the runner or runners shall return to their respective base(s)

1. In this situation, the batter is not out if the infielder permits the fair fly, fair line drive or fair bunt in flight to drop untouched to the ground, except when the infield fly rule (2-19) applies (

NewUmpire posted:

No need to fake it getting lost ... fielder is permitted to let it drop untouched.

SECTION 4 RUNNER IS OUT ART. 1 . . . The batter-runner is out when:

c. his fair fly, fair line drive or fair bunt in flight is intentionally dropped by an infielder with at least first base occupied and before there are two outs. The ball is dead and the runner or runners shall return to their respective base(s)

1. In this situation, the batter is not out if the infielder permits the fair fly, fair line drive or fair bunt in flight to drop untouched to the ground, except when the infield fly rule (2-19) applies (

Interesting. I did not know that. Is that NFHS?

ironhorse posted:
NewUmpire posted:

No need to fake it getting lost ... fielder is permitted to let it drop untouched.

SECTION 4 RUNNER IS OUT ART. 1 . . . The batter-runner is out when:

c. his fair fly, fair line drive or fair bunt in flight is intentionally dropped by an infielder with at least first base occupied and before there are two outs. The ball is dead and the runner or runners shall return to their respective base(s)

1. In this situation, the batter is not out if the infielder permits the fair fly, fair line drive or fair bunt in flight to drop untouched to the ground, except when the infield fly rule (2-19) applies (

Interesting. I did not know that. Is that NFHS?

The same rule applies in OBR and NCAA -- and has for many, many years.

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