Skip to main content

Fielder catches ball and clearly has control, moments later fielder is collided with by base runner and loses ball. Safe or out? Read a few conflicting opinions on umpire forums but it seemed like this would typically be an out. Couldn't find anything in the rule book that addresses this. Thanks!

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Frankly, it's going to be called the same way in all codes.

 

There was some thought that a force out was "immediate" and what happened after that didn't matter (although it's usually applied when a fielder had the ball and was racing the runner to the base).  That line of thinking is getting less and less prevalent -- correctly, in my mind.

I didn't see the play and am not sure if we're talking about a force play (no tag on the actual runner required) or a tag play.

If a force play (no tag), I would be in the camp that a force play (touching the bag ahead of a forced runner) is an immediate out, assuming the defensive player has control of the baseball.  If, after touching the bag with control of the baseball, the defensive player involuntarily lost control of the baseball for any reason (transferring ball to throw, tripped and fell, runner hit his glove, muscle spasms, vertigo, stiff breeze, etc.), it would have no bearing on the force out.

If he loses the ball for those reason during the act of tagging the runner or tagging the base, then I'd argue the player did not have control of the baseball during the play ... no out. 

OP stated:  "Fielder catches ball and clearly has control, moments later fielder is collided with by base runner and loses ball. Safe or out?"  Again, I can't tell from that statement alone as to where the out was supposed to come from -- was the fielder tagging a base that resulted in a force out or was he tagging the base runner who ultimately dislodged the ball? 

If the former, with "moments" being measured in seconds such that we all agree the fielder had full control of the baseball as he we tagging the base, then I would rule an out on the force.  The ball being dislodged happened after the out and doesn't retroactively wipe that off the board.  Similar to a DP attempt when the F4/F6 swipes 2B then drops the ball on transfer to throw to 1B -- force at 2B still stands, as the drop on transfer happened after that play. 

If the latter, then safe.

Force plays are always tag plays. A tag play just means that a runner or base is tagged to record the out.

NCAA requires that there be voluntary release on any tag play. Because the release was involuntary and unrelated to any illegal action by the offense, there is no out on this play.

For other codes, the area is more murky. All agree that the fielder has to maintain possession through the act of the tag. However, where the act of the tag ends, or if voluntary release is required, is still up for debate. I argue that it is not required, and once action unrelated to the tag is complete, it is an out. Thus, in this case, I might have an out (I only saw the video on mobile, so it was hard to discern when the ball was dislodged relative to the fielder's actions.)

Matt13 posted:

[...] NCAA requires that there be voluntary release on any tag play. Because the release was involuntary and unrelated to any illegal action by the offense, there is no out on this play.

[...]Thus, in this case, I might have an out (I only saw the video on mobile, so it was hard to discern when the ball was dislodged relative to the fielder's actions.)

I'm confused.  The first statement suggests the fielder has a burden to maintain control indefinitely.  Thus, the failed DP attempt I illustrated above would result in no outs in NCAA.  4-6, F6 swiped 2B, vacates 2B, reaches into glove, drops ball attempting to transfer for throw to 1B/F3.  No outs recorded because of the involuntary release of the baseball on a tag play.  That is contrary to everything I thought I knew about baseball, but sometimes rules are that way.

But, then you state that you might have an out ... particularly if things unraveled as stated by the OP (not a bang-bang play, but a catch, tag, moment, collision, ball rolls free).  How, after the first statement, would you grant an out in this situation between LSU-CC governed by NCAA rules?  Asking because I feel like I'm missing something, not because I'm trying to bust balls.

67L48 posted:
Matt13 posted:

[...] NCAA requires that there be voluntary release on any tag play. Because the release was involuntary and unrelated to any illegal action by the offense, there is no out on this play.

[...]Thus, in this case, I might have an out (I only saw the video on mobile, so it was hard to discern when the ball was dislodged relative to the fielder's actions.)

I'm confused.  The first statement suggests the fielder has a burden to maintain control indefinitely.  Thus, the failed DP attempt I illustrated above would result in no outs in NCAA.  4-6, F6 swiped 2B, vacates 2B, reaches into glove, drops ball attempting to transfer for throw to 1B/F3.  No outs recorded because of the involuntary release of the baseball on a tag play.  That is contrary to everything I thought I knew about baseball, but sometimes rules are that way.

But, then you state that you might have an out ... particularly if things unraveled as stated by the OP (not a bang-bang play, but a catch, tag, moment, collision, ball rolls free).  How, after the first statement, would you grant an out in this situation between LSU-CC governed by NCAA rules?  Asking because I feel like I'm missing something, not because I'm trying to bust balls.

I think you missed where I said "For other codes..."

The key phrase here is;  "In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball.  If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made."  Another way of putting it is that the release of the ball after a tag must be "voluntary and intentional."

In a DP situation, the benefit of the doubt is often given to the fielder making the turn because the transfer of the ball from the glove to the throwing hand happens quickly.  In the OP description of the play the release of the ball did not appear to be voluntary and intentional.  So, as long as the runner did not intentionally interfere, I do not have an out on that play.

JWC1022 posted:

The key phrase here is;  "In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball.  If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made."  Another way of putting it is that the release of the ball after a tag must be "voluntary and intentional."

That's OBR, and that's not another way of putting it. Voluntary release is not required by the prevailing logic (as of today.)

When I trained to be an umpire this was how this was described to me:  The defender must prove control of the ball.  That means that once he establishes procession of the ball he makes a play or move to release the ball (voluntary release).  That is why you will see umpires hold for a moment on tag plays to confirm that the defender has the ball.

We asked a long series of questions on tags, force play (DP's) and collisions with players and walls etc.  In the end - until the defender makes a 2nd move while in control of the ball - it is a drop.  The most controversial piece of this for our group was the collisions - if a fielder makes a running grab going towards the fence and hits it after even two strides without making a move to release the ball - it is a drop play on. 

Finally bought it when it was adjusted to the catcher holding the ball and getting thumped on a tag.  He has to complete the play and demonstrate control of the ball after the tag for the play to be complete.  Running into the wall, force plays and other collisions etc. is the same thing.

luv baseball posted:

When I trained to be an umpire this was how this was described to me:  The defender must prove control of the ball.  That means that once he establishes procession of the ball he makes a play or move to release the ball (voluntary release).  That is why you will see umpires hold for a moment on tag plays to confirm that the defender has the ball.

We asked a long series of questions on tags, force play (DP's) and collisions with players and walls etc.  In the end - until the defender makes a 2nd move while in control of the ball - it is a drop.  The most controversial piece of this for our group was the collisions - if a fielder makes a running grab going towards the fence and hits it after even two strides without making a move to release the ball - it is a drop play on. 

Finally bought it when it was adjusted to the catcher holding the ball and getting thumped on a tag.  He has to complete the play and demonstrate control of the ball after the tag for the play to be complete.  Running into the wall, force plays and other collisions etc. is the same thing.

You were trained somewhat improperly because it appears that they are conflating catches and tags. A catch always requires voluntary release (or by interpretation, control of the body to the point where release would be voluntary.)

There are three schools of thought on what standard exists for a tag (OBR and FED

1. Once the moment of the tag is completed, whatever happens after that is irrelevant. This is an old interpretation that is pretty much dead (but it still has not been officially superseded.) The best example of this is the Varitek play in 2004(?).

2. Voluntary release is required, the same as a catch.

3. In between 1&2, possession must be maintained through the immediate act of the tag and any ancillary action, but after that, it is irrelevant. 

They really didn't make an out right equivalency but they were driving home the point on voluntary release on catches.  Tag plays were specifically addressed that the tag had to be made and control maintained.  Don't be too quick..."Show me the ball" was the approach to take.

I just connected them for my own understanding since the common thread was - control the ball through the entire play was the key to making a good call.

luv baseball posted:

They really didn't make an out right equivalency but they were driving home the point on voluntary release on catches.  Tag plays were specifically addressed that the tag had to be made and control maintained.  Don't be too quick..."Show me the ball" was the approach to take.

I just connected them for my own understanding since the common thread was - control the ball through the entire play was the key to making a good call.

Okay, glad we cleared that up. Now for a learning opportunity...

"Show me the ball" is the wrong way to ascertain possession. Let the play end naturally. At some point, you'll get the information you need. So much can go wrong with requiring a fielder to make a separate effort to show you the ball: there may be a play developing elsewhere to which they will be slower to respond, they may actually drop the ball trying to finagle it for you, etc. Just let them transition into the next play or to relaxed action...you'll eventually see what you need. That runner is going to be safe or out just the same.

A few years ago, NFHS game, JV level.  Batter hits a laser line drive over the 3B head.  F5 jumps and waves at the liner.  He actually catches it, but has no idea he was successful.  F5 believes that the ball glanced off the top of his glove.  Upon landing on his feet from his jump, he immediately spins to LF to locate the ball.  Standing in place, scanning the OF, the ball slowly rolls out of his glove (now at his side) and falls to the ground.

Ruling:  batter out, ball was dropped after the ball was declared a secure catch.

I don't believe it's possible to voluntarily release something that you don't even know you possess.  Thus, this would have to be involuntary release in my book.  However, I thought it was a good call (even though it went against our team).  I believe that the player definitely caught and controlled the baseball, even though he didn't know it was in his glove.  He made no subsequent baseball play, other than to turn and look over the field.

Presumably, this would have been no-catch, no-out in NCAA rules.  That just seems wrong to me.  The whole concept seems wrong to me. These aren't bang-bang plays we're discussing. What happens next should affect what happens next, not what just occurred moments ago.  But, that's why we have rules, to eliminate the sliding scale of people's individual "common sense."

Last edited by 67L48
67L48 posted:

A few years ago, NFHS game, JV level.  Batter hits a laser line drive over the 3B head.  F5 jumps and waves at the liner.  He actually catches it, but has no idea he was successful.  F5 believes that the ball glanced off the top of his glove.  Upon landing on his feet from his jump, he immediately spins to LF to locate the ball.  Standing in place, scanning the OF, the ball slowly rolls out of his glove (now at his side) and falls to the ground.

Ruling:  batter out, ball was dropped after the ball was declared a secure catch.

I don't believe it's possible to voluntarily release something that you don't even know you possess.  Thus, this would have to be involuntary release in my book.  However, I thought it was a good call (even though it went against our team).  I believe that the player definitely caught and controlled the baseball, even though he didn't know it was in his glove.  He made no subsequent baseball play, other than to turn and look over the field.

Presumably, this would have been no-catch, no-out in NCAA rules.  That just seems wrong to me.  The whole concept seems wrong to me. These aren't bang-bang plays we're discussing. What happens next should affect what happens next, not what just occurred moments ago.  But, that's why we have rules, to eliminate the sliding scale of people's individual "common sense."

Because we are talking about a catch, this would not have been a catch under any code.

Add Reply

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×