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Federation rules.

Runner on first, one out.

Grounder toward the 5-6 hole. SS chooses too deep of a route for the so-so speed of the ball, then bobbles it. With no chance of getting any runner out, he makes a pointless desperation throw to second base.

R1 easily beats the throw, but makes an illegal slide, going beyond the base and then making contact with the second baseman.

So, R1 is out for the illegal slide. There's no malicious contact. It was just poor technique.

The question is whether the batter-runner is also out.

It may seem obvious that the batter-runner is out because we know the force play slide rule says the call is interference, and with less than two outs the runner is declared out, as well as the batter-runner.

There are two problems with the obvious answer:

1) There was no play to interfere with. Because of his poor technique and fielding, the shortstop had no play anywhere. And neither did the second baseman, who had acknowledged as much by receiving the throw positioned like a first baseman with his right foot planted on the left field edge of the base and his left foot extended toward the source of the throw. He had no thought of any follow-on play. 

2) It might not have been a force play, but the imprecise wording of the Fed rule book leaves room for doubt. Rule two defines a "force out" as a putout during which a runner who is being forced to advance is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base to which the forced runner is advancing." It does not define a "force play," and reasonable people could differ on whether a force play is a play on which is force out is recorded or whether it is a play where a force out is attempted. In fact, a quick review of plain language dictionaries finds it defined both ways in normal English usage. So there is some ambiguity.

At what point, if any, can an umpire say the hopeless throw was so late that it was no longer a force play and there was no interference because no fielder contemplated any follow-on play? 

Does the force play slide rule's primary purpose of protecting middle infielders from being taken out while they make the relay to first have any bearing on the interpretation?

Last edited by Swampboy
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Just as a thought - maybe you could interpret it as there was no force play because he reached the base safely prior to the illegal slide (assuming he touched the base during the slide).  Then the illegal slide doesn't fall under the "force play slide" rule, just a regular illegal slide. Maybe you could judge that the ss wasn't attempting a "force" play - just a "play" because he had no opportunity to get the force.

The rule itself doesn't require a follow on play, so I don't know if you want to factor that in?  I'd have a hard time awarding a double play in the scenario you present - but the rule pretty much would call for it.

The rule would be better if the umpire was allowed to use judgement as to whether or not there was going to be a continuing play.

 

The intent of the force-play-slide rule is to ensure the safety of
all players. This is a safety and an interference rule. Whether the defense could
have completed the double play has no bearing on the applicability of this rule.
This rule pertains to a force-play situation at any base, regardless of the number
of outs.

Actions by a runner are illegal and interference shall be called if:

The runner illegally slides toward or contacts the fielder even if the fielder
makes no attempt to throw to complete a play.

 

As umpires, we do not concern ourselfs with the possible outcome of the play, the intent of the players, or the players ability. A violation has occured by the offense and a penalty is invoked.

 

Last edited by Forest Ump
Swampboy posted:

Thanks, gentlemen.

I got both the outs. The on-field discussion with the coach was limited to the legality of the slide. This thread was the result of my over-thinking it after I got home.

I think a bit of reflection is healthy.  Much better than the opposite practice - never thinking you could have been wrong.

Rob T posted:
Swampboy posted:

Thanks, gentlemen.

I got both the outs. The on-field discussion with the coach was limited to the legality of the slide. This thread was the result of my over-thinking it after I got home.

I think a bit of reflection is healthy.  Much better than the opposite practice - never thinking you could have been wrong.

And it's good to bounce things off this group from time to time to get re-centered.

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