Has anyone ever seen a PG grade of less than 7?

Kandk, I think one thing that happens often is many kids go to the showcases as HS sophs and juniors.  A few years later they are much stronger, better college players and don't want their PG videos, numbers, etc., to still be showing up from when they were younger, weaker, etc. for a variety of reasons so they contact PG and have them pulled.

Hey, I know that same guy! (I think we all do).

My son does have a rating but it was from the only showcase that he attended. That is why I mentioned, in our situation, that it is only showcases that have ratings. The other 7 PG events he has attended did not have ratings.

Nah....he just has lots and lots of cousins!

I was honestly thinking about location too. I am looking at Pac-12 schools who aren't necessarily the top in the conference and then some mid-level D1s. Some of the kids are from Cali, Texas and AZ though, so now I'm wondering if it's more the case of people asking for the ratings to be taken down as someone else suggested.

This is the answer. If you look at the events, you'll see that almost all of the guys with no rating have not attended a showcase. Many players attend numerous tournaments without attending a showcase and, therefore get no rating.

Although we are from Texas, many Texas boys play in PG tournaments, or tournaments with PG name, but they have never been to a showcase where they got rated. I do know that my son did not go to one until the Summer before his Senior year.

 

I will admit now, even though, as of last Summer, I had been reading this site for over a year.  I did not understand that that is how ratings were derived. And second, did not realize how important good PG ratings can be in the early stages of being recruited. Had I known that, I would have gotten him to a showcase in the Summer before his Junior year.

But PG does seem to RANK players on the basis of their performances in tournaments, even if they haven't done a PG showcase.

Judging from the complaints we get from parents, I don't think we are giving many false hopes.  Most parents feel their son is actually better than the grade we give him.  In a few cases we actually think their son is better than they thought. In those cases we are usually right.

 

The simple truth is most players that attend these showcases are pretty good.  Most are capable of playing college baseball at some level.  Guess I don't really understand "false hope".  I look at hope as a positive thing. I don't see false hope or true hope as anything but words.  Most amazing accomplishments could be said to be based on false hope according to others.

 

The grade is always based on potential.  It takes work to reach potential.  Anyone that receives a high grade and stops working, will not reach their potential.

 

Because our major goal is to find and identify the very best prospects in the country, we see most of the very best players out there. (10s). We know that because the draft proves it every year.  We miss one once in awhile, but not many.  Because of this, the colleges with the most players that attended PG events tend to be the top programs in the top conferences.  For example Vanderbilt and Virginia rosters are loaded with these players.

 

The PG grade (low or high) isn't enough by itself.   Though we know a very high grade does create a lot of interest.  There are 9s and 10s that end up at DIIs and DIIIs.  There are 6s and 7s that end up at DI.  And as mentioned earlier I know of at least three Major League players that we graded a 6.  You see, some prove us wrong.  It tickles me pink when a player proves us wrong.  It keeps us humble, but more important it renews my faith in what hard work and perseverance can accomplish.

 

When you have seen as many players as we have, you will have seen some amazing things.   Kids that look out of place when they were 15, becoming 1st round picks out of college.  Scrawny weak kids that become big power hitters. Pitchers throwing in the 70s that end up throwing in the 90s.   Maybe all of you have seen one or two examples of the above. We see it a lot!  Then you start looking for the things that these "later blooming" kids have in common.  So when you see a player you know and wonder why we graded him an 8 when you know he isn't that good... It's because he shows something (arm action, bat speed, athleticism, body type, instincts, body control, etc.) that gives him more potential than some of the present day more polished players. 

 

People say baseball is a marathon not a sprint.  I look at our grade pertaining more to a sprint.  What happens after the grade (the marathon) is what counts the most.

Jerry,

 

No false hopes in my family. What your rating gave my son was additional assurance and confidence that he could compete with his peers!

 

I remember being stunned when the father of one of my son's former teammates informed me that his son was being recruited by Miami. And as a matter of fact, they were flying to Miami in a few weeks for a camp so that they could get a closer look at him.

 

I was speechless. This poor guy actually believed a camp mass mailing was legitimate interest. The kid was an average high school player, and could probably play at a lower level JuCo. I honestly felt terrible for him. That trip was not an insignificant expense for them, and of course, nothing good ever came from it.

Yeah, but the stories his son will be able to tell his own son years from now.  How he was a top recruit at Miami. If only . . . 

 

Uncle Rico: How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?... Yeah... Coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would've been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind. 

Well played, Nuke!! Bravo, bravo.  Excellent reference...if I had the power, I'd allocate 1,000 points toward your Community Ranking for that alone.  "How much you wanna make a bet...?"....love that line alone, and it is quoted weekly if not daily at our house.

PG-thanks for the response.  To answer your question about what is false hope...I live near Lakepoint, this area is swarming with kids/parents that are certain they will be playing baseball in college, but most won't.  Those are just the odds.

 

If a 2016 comes to the PG showcase in December and gets a 7 he might look at the PG explanations of the numbers and spend his entire senior year chasing his baseball dream.  Dreams are great, every child represented on this board has/has a baseball dream...I just wish their was some kind of rating that would let that young man know that in 5 months he is unlikely to develop the skills to play baseball at the next level and he should enjoy his senior year, enjoy his last season with his high school friends.

 

I know, it's a personal thing, it's a "to each their own", if the 18u kid wants to chase his dream that's his choice...I just feel bad for the guys like Midatlantic talks about that don't understand getting a PG grade of a 7 five months before you graduate likely means you are done. Will there be the rare exception yes...but for those who don't live on this board they might think the trip to Miami is worth it because after all their PG score did say they were a college prospect.

 

I know no system is perfect, I just wish their were different levels for different years.  If a 9th grader gets a 7, well I think he can take that grade as a compliment and it may give him a boost to keep working hard.  If a 12th grader gets a 7...well, that's an entirely different ballgame (no pun intended).

I think a lot of that is where you are from and what the player is looking for. My son never went to a PG event and plays D1. But his focus was 3-4 hours from home or less (he ended up 20 minutes from home). There are no PG events in Ohio, so we showcased with the predominate showcase company in Ohio.

 It's because he shows something (arm action, bat speed, athleticism, body type, instincts, body control, etc.) that gives him more potential than some of the present day more polished players. 

 

I'm hoping PG can provide everyone the simple formula they use to blend and then project all of these traits along with their laundry list of traits.  I was going to ask about all the various traits PG and others might look at when evaluating a player and then thought better of it.  While I keep wanting a simple formula, I realize there is no such thing.  I guess you need to see it working all together first and then look at some of the more interesting pieces seperately.  I guess that is why video seems to be the key for recruiting coordinators and stats end up meaning little a year down the road. 

Great point too. We have a local prospect/scouting/recruiting group here in the NW that does a lot of local stuff. They mainly focus on Oregon, Washington and Idaho. If you want to play in the NW, its good to get in on their events. I think this organization has a lot more pull regionally than a PG event, although there is at least one PG showcase in the area each year. 

CaCo, again, it won't be the grade, it will be seeing the other players around him and from that, getting a clearer picture of where he stands.  This PG showcase platform really does afford that opportunity...  maybe a couple hundred kids who are all viable candidates for college ball at various levels.  Where did son stack up against this group?  How do his measurables compare?  How does his grading COMPARE with the others and where are they heading?  Now, take a look at the other PG showcases scheduled around the country and do the math.  Understand, also, that there are regions as expressed here where many of the good players go to other branded showcases.  Then you start to get a much clearer vision of the big picture and where son may fit best.  So, again, I would suggest focusing less on the grade interpretation and more on discovering where son stacks up among the group of players that RC's are choosing from.   

Where in the rating system does it say a 6 or 7 2016 cant play college ball?  

There are different levels for all different type of players. 

6 or 7 may reflect future potential and projections but if someone really wants to play and willing to put in the work it takes to improve skills, it can happen.

 

Not sure I understand the false hope thing.

 

While I agree that showcases can be costly, it definetly lets the player and the parent know where they fit into the equation, in comparison to their graduating class and their specific geographical area.  It also lets the player know what level to shoot for.

JMO

 

It is difficult trying to explain this stuff.  Every player is different in some way.  

 

I will say this and I believe it.... If a player believes he is a potential 9 or 10 he should attend a showcase.  9s and 10s create the most interest.  So even if the player wants to stay very close to home, it always helps when other colleges are making offers.  You might end up at the local college, but with a much better offer.  You would be surprised what a BIG 10 college might offer when there are a couple of SEC offers to compete with. Or even what any college might offer when they find out you have many options. So if you are a potential 9 or 10, you should gain as much leverage as possible.  And most every college wants those 9 or 10 type players. Even if a 7 or 8 it could create interest, but 9s and 10s are legitimate no brainers regarding ability and potential.  But the Vanderbilt's, Virginia's, Florida's, UCLA, Texas's, LSU's, Stanford's, Arizona St's, etc., of the world don't have room for them all. However, everyone knows a 10 can possibly make a very big contribution at any program.

Many great explanations here, lots of insight and help with the grading system. I guess i'm just not that willing to pin my hopes or my kid's hopes on someone else grading system, in that...it would've been awesome for my son to get the 9 or 10, maybe he grades out at a 6 or 7 but even in the best case scenario nothing is guaranteed. If parents are falling in love with the PG grade's literal translation and talking with their kid about it and solely "pinning their hopes" on the college guarantee or possibility of playing D1 ball then something is wrong there Nothing in life is guaranteed and while positivity is awesome, you better have a back up plan. We hear about it all the time on this board, options for DII or D3 ball, if you want to play or continue playing when you didnt make D1 or the rosters are chock full of 10s and you may not "play". If baseball if a game that is based on overcoming failure to be successful, how if life much different? I've tried to be brutally honest with my son about competition, hard work and the fact that somewhere, there is always someone who will commit to out work you for your spot, over and over again and they will tell you they will beat you out. I saw an HBO sports episode recently that talked about our society telling kids, this new generation how awesome they are at everything, giving out trophies to everyone and how that promotes "false hope" that i think is referenced here. Shame on the parents of the younger generation, along with the educators, coaches and other enablers....it's gonna get really ugly when life happens to these kids. Talk about meltdowns. 

 

http://www.hbo.com/real-sports...o.html?autoplay=true

These ratings are just a guideline but I can assure you tjat a 10 is a 10.

 

Now if that 10 does nothing just because he is a 10, those rated lower that work harder will out work in him.

 

Working hard has nothing to do with it. JMO

As for PG creating false hope, I think that is garbage.  If some parent is going to plop down $600 (plus travel, etc) and have no real appreciation for the product, then they are to blame.  I suspect PG, the organization, did not set out to monopolize college recruiting.  However, they have provided an excellent product and certainly the top 100+ college program do leverage PG analysis and data extensively.  What should PG do now - stop running showcases because a certain percentage of participants are not fully educated on how PG should fit into a much broader plan for the kid?  Instead, PG comes to sites like this and basically lays it out in black and white.  It is true that PG has created unrealistic expectations in some families, but to place this blame at PG's feet is simply wrong.  As Shoveit4Ks says, "shame on the parents".

It seems that the original poster is doing something that often happens with rating or scoring systems.   In general there is a tendency among evaluators to use only the upper end of a rating system. But once everybody is scored at the upper end ever finer gradations tend to be made  in order to allow distinctions to still be made among those being evaluated.  Gradually a difference that used to be marked by a full point, comes to be marked by a half point and then maybe even a quarter point.   So instead of 1 -10 scale, you end up with, say, a 3 or 4 point scale -- but with decimals.   You see this sort of grade inflation in lots of domains. 

 

But I don't think PG ratings have been subjected to this. And don't think they should be read that way.

 

Seems like PG means it when they say that 10's are, in their estimation,  top draft picks or elite college prospects or that 7's are college prospects and potential future draft picks with development. 

 

If somebody just told you that you kid was a college prospect and a potential future draft pick with development you'd be thrilled.  You'd tell the kid to work his butt of to reach his potential.   It's only when that's put on a 1-10 scale that you could even possible think  "that means he can't play in college and is done after high school."  

Hold your horses there 2017!  I'm not blaming anything on PG, please don't put words on this page that were NEVER there, nor was the intent.  My kid thinks PG is a tiny MLB, where the elite play, we go to LP just to watch other teams play. I have NOTHING against PG, and think the whole organization is fascinating. 

 

My question was does the verbal rating system match up with what people on here have experienced.  I had never seen the verbal explanations and they just seemed wrongly matched up...I would have thought only 9's and 10's were college prospects, the other number explanations had me scratching my head, and yes, feeling bad thinking that some poor kid who got a 6 his senior year still thinks he's a shoe in for college ball.  As it has been explained on here that kid will have also seen his peers exceed him at the showcase, but I still have a big heart and feel bad that a score of a 6 or 7 probably has some struggling family on their way to Miami thinking their kid has a shot...I'm supremely happy I'm not going to be one of the uneducated, but I still feel bad for others.

 

If this came across as slamming PG it was not intentional.

This is a common misunderstanding of not understanding.
I have known absolutely no one who has spent money on a showcase and had no understanding of the rating system.   I have known people who will use the experience as a learning process and use the information to improve.  If you are going to spend that type of money for an evaluation you better understand.
This has nothing to do with getting a letter to attend a camp where the player will have no chance of ever playing but sees that letter as a genuine interest because they s ont understand. The false hope does not reflect any negativity on PG.
JMO

JMO

I would think that if a kid goes to a PG showcase and performs like a 6, he did so in the midst of some stiff competition. He and his parents would be aware of how he stacked up and have a decent understanding about what that 6 means when compared to the other players they saw during the showcase or they are so delusional that even a "1" wouldn't turn their enthusiasm down to a realistic level.

Sadly, in many cases, you would be wrong.  

Thus, my inclusion of the delusional parent for whom even a "1" wouldn't convince them of their place in the talent pool.

I was thinking of the parent who rationalizes the 6 was really a 7.5, because Junior was nursing an injury, or his favorite bat broke in warm-ups, or his hands get stiff in the cold, etc. But you're right, even a "1" wouldn't change anything,

That is why we give advice to never spend money to showcase at less than 100 per cent.

The PG rating is just another tool in the overall recruiting chest.  It is very subjective based on the evaluator, a players performance on specific date, time and conditions.  The most important numbers parents and players should be tracking and improving is their SAT, ACT & GPA.  These numbers will open up far more college opportunities than any showcase rating number.  Kudo's to Jerry and PG for always providing the color around concerns directed towards PG. 

On the subject, I did have another question. How do they handle the kid that goes to one of these as a two-way player and shows considerable talent as, say, a pitcher, and considerably lesser abilities as a position player? Do they then give him a rating based on the combination?

 

An example was this past weekend with my son. His future is as a pitcher. I mean, he's good with a bat and will probably be a 3 or 4 hitter on the high school varsity as a sophomore this year, but definitely not a D1 prospect. However, I put him in a PBR showcase as RHP/OF mainly to give him a good comparison and as a backup if maybe he doesn't progress as hoped and could play two-way in a lesser division in the future. OK, it was also just to keep him from getting too bored.

 

He threw two innings, hitting 85 which got him the attention he needs as a pitcher. However, as a position player he didn't show as well. he skipped the 60 due to his recent glute problem. He hit a miserable 75mph off the tee (we never hit from a tee) although he drilled the ball in the games. PBR doesn't give overall ratings, but I wondered how PG would have handled this. As a 2018, he's obviously a higher caliber recruit as a pitcher. I see guys on PG who throw 92mph, but are listed as, say, RHP/3B and run a 7.65 60 and throw 79mph across the diamond. If they are then a 9, has PG rated them as a high prospect as a pitcher and basically dismissed their position talents or has PG discounted their overall rating based on their poor performance as a position player?

Caco - my comment was not directed at you but rather some regular comments throughout this board that PG has some dark side that they perpetuate on purpose in pursuit of profits.  Comments like "PG's ratings should be more precise" may sound great but just don't fly.  If someone wants more precise ratings, they should build out an infrastructure that is superior to PG (good luck).  As folks point out, PG can help out but it is by no means the only avenue.  As a result, one can either take it or leave and stop blaming.  

 

I too feel bad when folks get disappointed, but feel less bad for the delusional parent.  I'm sure this has been happening long before PG came on the scene.  I've read elsewhere that PG tries to ensure that showcase participants have some base level of skill before they show up and doubt many kids who have zero shot at college baseball participate - they may just not like the level for which their skills fit.  

 

I always choose to blame the parents.  I'm having my 9 yo try out for travel ball because the local park, which 2017 played at, has probably 50% fewer players - the bottom 50% are still at it.  Park ball past machine pitch is apparently dying.  Instead, we get to pay 10x as much and end up playing park ball out of town.  Every (lots) parent with a 9 yo on a travel team equates it to some elite program and thus the delusion begins early.  Parents let this happen and now flock to PG as Mecca - again, why blame PG?  Sorry if I offended.

I thought it was the umpire. 

Thanks for clarifying 2017LHP.  I don't blame PG per say for the delusional parents, but I do wish their was a different verbal system for 9th vs 12th graders...but perhaps the scorers take that into account while scoring.

 

I know what you mean about 9u, that was why we had to start the travel ball option, too many kids just starting baseball at 9u in the rec parks.  If I had left my son there he probably would need TJ surgery by now because he was being asked to play half the field, WHILE he was pitching...and yes this travel ball status, as some would say, has led to MANY an inflated ego.  These aren't rose colored glasses, this is an alternate reality. 

 

I knew of a 10u kid who flew all over the country playing on a special team that requires a 5K deposit!  He had his own website, built by his parents, where they showed video of him batting...most of the balls were hit to the left side of the net, pretty much directly at where the short stop would be.  I've seen this kid play, he was lucky to make the throw from 3B to 1B, and generally played 2B because of it, and in his bio he touted that he was an athletic 4'8, 75 pound player....those people feed their own delusions, I don't feel bad for them, but yes they will be the ones saying things about favorite broken bats and the kid had a cold coming on as reasoning for the low grade. 

This!  

 

Been reading this whole thread and I wanted to address a couple of things I've been thinking about.

 

1st of all, I really don't think PG assigns their grade relative to the current showcase or regional context.  PG sees kids from all over the country.  They judge the talent, skills and potential future skills of the kid in regard to baseball, not in regard to other kids that live in that geographical area.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think these guys go into that much depth.  If you are a 6, you are a 6 regardless of where you are from or who else participated in that showcase.  If you are a 10, you are a 10 regardless of where you are from or who else participated in that showcase.  Maybe PGStaff can correct me if I'm wrong.  

 

The other thing is, the disparity of the talent of those playing college baseball is perhaps more diverse than some realize.  My son plays for one of the better D2 teams in the country.  During my son's 3 years there, they have consistently been ranked in the top 25, and have been as high as #3.  His team has played some out of conference D2 teams over the years that they have just destroyed on a consistent basis.  I'm talking scores of 28-0, 23-0, 26-1, etc.  Both teams are D2, but quite frankly, they shouldn't be on the same field together.  I think you can find the same thing within other divisions.  Last season, my son's team hit 74 HRs.  The D3 team a family friend's son played on hit 3.  Yes, as a team for the whole season.  The top national teams in each division are WAY different than the teams who play every year without a chance to win their conference or remotely compete on a national level.  I don't point this out to brag about my son's team, I'm just saying that I have seen college teams play that don't look like a good HS team.  

 

So, to say that a player who received a 6 or 7 has no realistic chance of playing college baseball is fairly naive.  A 6 is listed as a "Potential College Prospect".  I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility.  Will they play for Vanderbilt?  Chances are no.  Can they play for a low level D3 or a low level D2?  Definitely a possibility.

 

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but there are some college teams out there that are not very good.  Pretty much everyone who wants to play college ball can.  Whether their team will be any good is another story.

The MLB Scouting scale is a 2-8 scale. Of course, those grades are seldom published anywhere.

 

It is a good system and we actually use it internally.  A 5 grade means MLB average in that tool.  So a 5 on the MLB scale would be more like a 9 on the PG scale.  In other words, MLB average is excellent for a high school age player.  

 

Once again, there is nothing misleading about the grades.  The grade is simply an opinion, just like some MLB Scouts would grade a player a 5, other MLB scouts might grade the same player a 4.  Happens all the time, but people just never know it.

 

Our grades are based on potential, our opinion of a player's ceiling or potential.  We use numbers and our eyes to form an opinion.  The more we see a player, the more accurate we become.  But there is no scientific formula that will tell you with certainty what the 16 year old will be like when he is 21 years old. It's really fairly simple, do you want that opinion or not?  I will say that we seem to be consistent with how college recruiters and pro scouts think.  

 

Take a program like Vanderbilt or Florida or most any SEC college.  Go to there website and click on their roster.  Then you can easily check those players old PG profile and see where they ranked or what their grade was, if they had a grade.  Seeing that I haven't done that, I'm just guessing.  But I bet you will see that most of those grades will be very high and there will also be some not so high.

 

The player or parent that thinks a high grade is all it takes would be mistaken.  Same goes for those that think a low grade means they are limited.  And I see nothing wrong with a young player that believes he is better than what others think. That is not false hope, that is real hope! What is worse, perceived false hope or understanding there is no hope.  Some parents will learn, many already know, there are kids out there right now that are the very worst player on their 12-13 year old team and they will become the very best prospect at their high school in 4 or 5 years.  

PG does not rate each other. 

What I meant was if my son lives in Florida more than likely he will be in a showcase in Florida, not in another state. So this gives him an idea of competition for college and the draft.