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We are having a debate on another site about PG showcase grades and the following point system was posted, presumably from the PG website, that the grades stand for:


10 -- Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect
9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect
7 -- Potential low round pick, DI prospect or top level Juco, DII
6 -- Possible DI prospect, definite DII or Juco prospect
5 -- Possible DII prospect or mid range Juco prospect
4 -- Possible low level DII or high level DIII prospect
3 -- Possible DIII or low level Juco prospect
2 -- Possible low level DIII prospect
1 -- No prospect at this time

 

I can't recall ever seeing a PG grade of less than I think maybe a 7...has anyone seen a showcase grade below that?  Has anyone seen a player with a recent PG score of an 8 play for a D1? i.e not the showcase score they got when they were in 9th grade, but a recent to graduation PG score of an 8 or 8.5 on a D1 roster?

 

These number explanations seem kind of wonky to me.  What do y'all think?

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yes, I have seen PG grades of less than 7. A fair number of them actually.

 

But also you should know that if you score low you can ask PG to take your grade down.

 

Plus I don't think that is the current PG grading system exactly, but an earlier version.  If you go to the list of "top uncommitted players"  you'll see that the guys at the very bottom of the lists have scores of like 5, 5.5, 6. 

 

 

Last edited by SluggerDad

BTW, here is PG's latest Rating System for grades. It has been updated since the list CaCo3Girl posted and this one seems much more reflective of the grades relative to where they may belong in the recruiting hierarchy. 

 

And yes, I have seen grades below 7 as well.


Perfect Game USA's Player Rating System

10 Potential very high draft pick and/or Elite level college prospect 
9 Potential top 10 round pick and/or highest level college prospect 
8 Potential draft pick and/or excellent college prospect 
7 College prospect, possible future draft pick with development 
6 Potential college prospect 
5 Possible College prospect and/or possible HS varsity 
4 HS JV 
3 Possible HS JV 
2 No prospect at this time 
1 The game is too dangerous 

Last edited by bballman

I'm not sure I have seen anything below a 7 - maybe one 6.5.  The write-ups that accompany a 7 do not really seem to matchup with "potential low round pick" they often read as more of a "possible DII prospect".  On the other hand, there seem to be a good number of 9's and while these write-ups show excellent skills, not sure they meet "top 10 round draft pick" (which I assume means drafted out of high school).

 

As these require an invitation with some apparent selectivity, I would assume there is an internal cutoff of where the minimum rating should be.  I realize PG needs to fill the rosters but I am sure they prefer not to have many 5's or 6's in attendance in favor of 7's and 8's.

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
People, my son hasn't been to a showcase.  I'm trying to gauge how this board thinks these numbers match up with what actually happens with the players.

i.e. Does an 8 actually get D1 attention? Does a 6 actually get to play in college?

A former coach of my son's was rated an 8.5 by PG.  Was drafted out of HS.  forewent the draft,  Was drafted out of college.  Played several years in the minors.  As to the 6.0 he's not going to play at a D1 in all likelihood.  Put a PG rating is just one data point.   PGstaff who frequents this board is on record saying that they sometimes get things wrong.  PG is quite useful, but it's not the only measuring stick out there.

 

 

Here he is explaining their rating system:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q6tpEHpoRY

 

Last edited by SluggerDad
Originally Posted by SluggerDad:

yes, I have seen PG grades of less than 7. A fair number of them actually.

 

But also you should know that if you score low you can ask PG to take your grade down.

 

Plus I don't think that is the current PG grading system exactly, but an earlier version.  If you go to the list of "top uncommitted players"  you'll see that the guys at the very bottom of the lists have scores of like 5, 5.5, 6. 

 

 

Yep, you can sort the list.  Lowest posted grades are 5.5  The others are blank, which I would assume means the player asked to have the grade removed.

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
People, my son hasn't been to a showcase.  I'm trying to gauge how this board thinks these numbers match up with what actually happens with the players.

i.e. Does an 8 actually get D1 attention? Does a 6 actually get to play in college?

This likely requires a longer answer than this.  As I've said many times, I highly recommend using the search button in the upper left of this site.  This topic has been covered over the years.  There is soooo much great content here....and most of it stands the test of time.

 

A lot depends on when the rating comes.  A player who is rated a 6 or 6.5, unless that rating comes very early and he improves a ton, IMO, will NOT be college baseball material.  Think of the rating system in some respects like some of the judging for Olympics.  Just by showing up and not tripping over oneself, a player can probably get a 6.  I doubt there has been a 5 or below given in a long, long time.  But, this is just based off of my experience, the amount of time I spend on PG and the number of profiles I see.  If a player doesn't receive at least a 7.5-8.0 at an initial showcase, I'd be concerned about whether he has the skills to play in college.  PG may disagree, but that is based on experience.

 

Also, keep in mind that a rating is just a point in time.  There are many examples of kids who were rated 7.5 or 8 early then end up at a 9 or even 10.  To have a rating "upgraded" or "updated", one must attend another showcase.  My son is actually a pretty good example.  I took him to a PG Showcase Summer after 9th grade.  He was rated a 2016 top prospect (size, projectable RHP), topped out at 81 and was given an 8 rating.  Since then, he has developed nicely, can touch 90 mph and is committed to a D1 and is ranked highly in our state and Top 500 nationally.  But, I've not taken him to another showcase (just a bunch of PG tournaments), so his rating is still an 8.0.  While there are no guarantees, I strongly suspect he would be rated higher, and possibly much higher, if I took him to another showcase.  Frankly, I wish PG would consider adjusting these ratings in situations where it is clear that a kid has advanced.

 

 

 

Last edited by BucsFan
Originally Posted by Smoltzie29:

And what does a grade with a ".5" with it mean?  A 9.5 specifically.  

Call me crazy, but I think it means the player is in between and not clearly a - in your case - 9 or a 10.  It is an art, not a science, folks.  Same as a 9.7 being better than a 9.6 (or whatever) in figure skating.  Take it for what it is worth and don't read much into it.  There are many kids who will be high draft picks who have no rating.  Why? They never went to a PG showcase.  Happens less and less nowadays, but it happened a lot in the past.

Last edited by BucsFan
I can only speak to my son's teammates but I have seen a kid with a 9 struggle to get any traction as well as a 7 and a kid with no rating commit to top programs. 

We can agree to disagree and right or wrong but I believe that college coach's trust their own ability to evaluate talent over all things. They might consider another's opinion but ultimately the thumbs up or thumbs down will be most heavily influenced by their opinion.
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
People, my son hasn't been to a showcase.  I'm trying to gauge how this board thinks these numbers match up with what actually happens with the players.

i.e. Does an 8 actually get D1 attention? Does a 6 actually get to play in college?

CaCo3,

To specifically answer your questions, my observations align with Bucsfan.  And be sure to watch the video link that Sluggerdad provided.  I think those two data points will best give you the info you are looking for.

In the video, as usual, Jerry admits occasional misses but understates how right they are with the vast majority.  I think the misses occur when players are particularly young and haven't developed near their potential yet.  I think most 8's would be borderline or not quite major or mid-major D1 potentially.  A 6 will have a great deal of work and development ahead if he hopes to see a college field unless it's a really weak college program.  That said, some players develop a bit more or less than expected in their late HS and early college years.  Some work particularly harder or particularly less toward achieving their potential.

I believe PGStaff has stated that it is fairly common to either take down or not post scores for players who rate fairly low (probably in the 5 to 6.5 range).

 

The grade scale, I believe, is generously slanted toward optimistic potential.

 

My perspective comes from having regularly checked grades for a period of several years of those who have played for me as well as those who played on showcase and scout teams with son and with others I follow. 

Last edited by cabbagedad
Originally Posted by roothog66:

My take is that the overall rating is nice for public consumption, but means little in the eyes of a recruiter. The raw numbers and written evaluations carry weight, but that rating # is just eye candy.

Agree somewhat with Roothog. As to OP Question, yes there have been students with low ratings who have gone on to play D1. The rating may have come when the player was young and hasn't been to PG events/showcases last 2-3 years before graduation. I also know of a pitcher/hitter who is playing D1(multiple offers- one ACC,all state in HS) who doesn't have a PG rating.

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
People, my son hasn't been to a showcase.  I'm trying to gauge how this board thinks these numbers match up with what actually happens with the players.

i.e. Does an 8 actually get D1 attention? Does a 6 actually get to play in college?

The score is relative to the rest of the player population in that graduating class, in the eyes of the PG recruiter. Think of a Bell Curve.

 

So if the majority of players are in that 4-7.5 range, then it's a very large recruiting pool relative to a very small number of open spots, assuming the total number of open spots have been filled by the higher scoring individuals. Possible? Yes, but improbable.

 

If college recruiters pay a minimal amount of attention to the PG score, then what's the value of a PG score? More than anything else, it's a metric that is used as a tool to benchmark improvement. Player X is an 8.5? OK, what needs to be done to get to a 9? How does he compare to other 9s? Once the gap is identified and parsed, then a plan can be put in place to attain a 9.

3 follow up points that I totally agree with but that I thought are pretty obvious and, thus,  did not spell out:
1.  There are many, many, many outliers (my response was "directional" and speaking to the "middle of the bell curve" to provide some insight) => 9s that fizzle and can't go D1, 6.5 or 7s who develop and go Top 25/get drafted/make MLB
2. College and pro scouts do not rely on these ratings and have to see and judge for themselves (who would think otherwise?), and
3. A player who is rated, say a 7, then ends up ACC, SEC, PAC12, drafted, etc. is, in fact, not a 7 at the time of said commitment or draft. The rating is likely "stale", from 1 to 3 years prior.  To suggest otherwise would mean PG is way off the mark and doesn't know how to ID talent, and we all know they do.

Note too, that sometimes a bad showing can be due to trying to play with some type of injury that hasn't been disclosed.   Such was the case with my son when he played at Area Code where he was just a few weeks into recovery for an oblique muscle pull. He was at a stage where he could play, but it was obvious to me that it affected his play there and he didn't show nearly as strong as he usually did.  I felt bad about it, but he wanted so badly to participate and compete with such top level players I just thought we'd see and take it day by day.  As it turned out, I don't think it hurt him.  But it didn't help either in terms of impressing any of the recruiters and scouts.  

 

As others have eluded to, one event where performance is off doesn't really hurt a play.  But, surely if a player has a particularly good event (like having a very high score in a PG event), it will likely draw attention to those who haven't really noticed before.  That's why scouts and recruiters like to observe multiple games for a player to get an idea for the consistency of playing well or not.

9s and 10s we are very accurate

 

Grades are based on potential

 

We tend to grade a bit on the high side.

 

There have been 7s and 8s that played DI baseball and/or been drafted.

 

There are at least three Major League players we graded lower than 7.

 

Most every player that attends the PG Showcases has some level of college baseball ability.  Between the fee and travel costs, it doesn't make sense if a player lacks some kind of college ability.

 

There are many graded below a 6, but most of those don't appear on our website.

 

Truth is... We are good at what we do, but we certainly aren't perfect.

Thank you everyone for responding.  All of your points make a lot of sense.  I guess I always thought of PG grades as VERY accurate, and assumed if you get a 9 or a 10 you are going to play in college.  I had never seen the verbal explanation of what the numbers mean.

 

The thing that made my head glitch is the idea of some 2016 going to a showcase getting a 6 and because of that 6 he thinks he can and will play in college.  We battle on this board so much about parents wearing rose colored glasses....I wonder how many people have viewed their kids PG score and thought a 6 or a 7 proved they were good enough to play in college because that is what the explanation of the numbers says.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not the grade is accurate...I'm arguing whether or not the explanations are accurate, or if they just give false hope.

I'd just add that a rating may not directly get a kid recruited, but it does offer some credibility in the inital stages with a coach.  If a coach gets two consecutive phone calls or emails from kids, then goes and checks their PG rating - one is a 7 and one is a 9 - who do you think he is going to go see play first?  Which will get a little more benefit of the doubt and maybe a second or third look if they happen to have a mediocre day.  I don't think the number will get a kid an offer, but a good number sure helps in the process, especially in the initial stages or with a coach that might be in a different part of the country than the player.

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:

Thank you everyone for responding.  All of your points make a lot of sense.  I guess I always thought of PG grades as VERY accurate, and assumed if you get a 9 or a 10 you are going to play in college.  I had never seen the verbal explanation of what the numbers mean.

 

The thing that made my head glitch is the idea of some 2016 going to a showcase getting a 6 and because of that 6 he thinks he can and will play in college.  We battle on this board so much about parents wearing rose colored glasses....I wonder how many people have viewed their kids PG score and thought a 6 or a 7 proved they were good enough to play in college because that is what the explanation of the numbers says.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not the grade is accurate...I'm arguing whether or not the explanations are accurate, or if they just give false hope.

Did you see the new list of explanations I posted a few posts back?  The new list is much more representative of what is going on, at least I think it is.  If you missed it, here it is again.

 

Perfect Game USA's Player Rating System

10 Potential very high draft pick and/or Elite level college prospect 
9 Potential top 10 round pick and/or highest level college prospect 
8 Potential draft pick and/or excellent college prospect 
7 College prospect, possible future draft pick with development 
6 Potential college prospect 
5 Possible College prospect and/or possible HS varsity 
4 HS JV 
3 Possible HS JV 
2 No prospect at this time 
1 The game is too dangerous 

One of the many benefits of attending a PG showcase, particularly for those players who are good but not necessarily top tier, is that they can sort of see where they measure up against other good players.  When it comes time for your son to attend, he will do so by comparing his grade to others he saw in attendance and perhaps others who he knows - more so than trying to evaluate how his grade is defined.

Perfect Game USA's Player Rating System

10 Potential very high draft pick and/or Elite level college prospect 
9 Potential top 10 round pick and/or highest level college prospect 
8 Potential draft pick and/or excellent college prospect 
7 College prospect, possible future draft pick with development 
6 Potential college prospect 
5 Possible College prospect and/or possible HS varsity 
4 HS JV 
3 Possible HS JV 
2 No prospect at this time 
1 The game is too dangerous

 

 

So I'm just a noob, and I've never been to a PG event, but based on the high school players I've seen and how things go for them after school it seems like there ought to be some daylight between HS and college talent.

 

Something more like:

 

10 - high draft pick and/or D1 star

9 - low draft pick, D1 starter

8 - D1 role player, D2 starter, D3 superstar, HS player of year.

7 - All Star in good HS division, possible D2 or D3 player.  JC also possible esp. if grades are an issue.

6 - HS Varsity All league 1st or 2nd team. Might make JC team as redshirt, 

5 - Very good varsity starter.  Cut from JC team.

etc....

Originally Posted by Ripken Fan:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

My take is that the overall rating is nice for public consumption, but means little in the eyes of a recruiter. The raw numbers and written evaluations carry weight, but that rating # is just eye candy.

Agree somewhat with Roothog. As to OP Question, yes there have been students with low ratings who have gone on to play D1. The rating may have come when the player was young and hasn't been to PG events/showcases last 2-3 years before graduation. I also know of a pitcher/hitter who is playing D1(multiple offers- one ACC,all state in HS) who doesn't have a PG rating.

In researching schools with my son, we've found quite a few players, especially pitchers, who are playing for D1 schools and don't have a PG rating at all. A few have pages on PG with some stats, but no rating. However, a lot do not show up on the PG site at all. I was a little surprised that there were so many.   

Originally Posted by kandkfunk:
Originally Posted by Ripken Fan:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

My take is that the overall rating is nice for public consumption, but means little in the eyes of a recruiter. The raw numbers and written evaluations carry weight, but that rating # is just eye candy.

Agree somewhat with Roothog. As to OP Question, yes there have been students with low ratings who have gone on to play D1. The rating may have come when the player was young and hasn't been to PG events/showcases last 2-3 years before graduation. I also know of a pitcher/hitter who is playing D1(multiple offers- one ACC,all state in HS) who doesn't have a PG rating.

In researching schools with my son, we've found quite a few players, especially pitchers, who are playing for D1 schools and don't have a PG rating at all. A few have pages on PG with some stats, but no rating. However, a lot do not show up on the PG site at all. I was a little surprised that there were so many.   

I believe you only get a rating if you participate in a showcase (stats are collected at tournaments).

Originally Posted by Smitty28:
Originally Posted by kandkfunk:
Originally Posted by Ripken Fan:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

My take is that the overall rating is nice for public consumption, but means little in the eyes of a recruiter. The raw numbers and written evaluations carry weight, but that rating # is just eye candy.

Agree somewhat with Roothog. As to OP Question, yes there have been students with low ratings who have gone on to play D1. The rating may have come when the player was young and hasn't been to PG events/showcases last 2-3 years before graduation. I also know of a pitcher/hitter who is playing D1(multiple offers- one ACC,all state in HS) who doesn't have a PG rating.

In researching schools with my son, we've found quite a few players, especially pitchers, who are playing for D1 schools and don't have a PG rating at all. A few have pages on PG with some stats, but no rating. However, a lot do not show up on the PG site at all. I was a little surprised that there were so many.   

I believe you only get a rating if you participate in a showcase (stats are collected at tournaments).

I totally get that. I was just surprised at how many kids I found who landed a D1 roster spot without the PG showcase and rating. Especially the number of pitchers.   

Originally Posted by JCG:

Perfect Game USA's Player Rating System

10 Potential very high draft pick and/or Elite level college prospect 
9 Potential top 10 round pick and/or highest level college prospect 
8 Potential draft pick and/or excellent college prospect 
7 College prospect, possible future draft pick with development 
6 Potential college prospect 
5 Possible College prospect and/or possible HS varsity 
4 HS JV 
3 Possible HS JV 
2 No prospect at this time 
1 The game is too dangerous

 

 

So I'm just a noob, and I've never been to a PG event, but based on the high school players I've seen and how things go for them after school it seems like there ought to be some daylight between HS and college talent.

 

Something more like:

 

10 - high draft pick and/or D1 star

9 - low draft pick, D1 starter

8 - D1 role player, D2 starter, D3 superstar, HS player of year.

7 - All Star in good HS division, possible D2 or D3 player.  JC also possible esp. if grades are an issue.

6 - HS Varsity All league 1st or 2nd team. Might make JC team as redshirt, 

5 - Very good varsity starter.  Cut from JC team.

etc....

PG's ratings are better than yours because far less black and white and in a way more humble.  That's because they build in a certain degree of  uncertainty with words like "possible"  "potential"  "with development."   

 

Seems like that think of themselves as doing several things --  assessing the quality of your tools at a time; giving you information that suggest what you need to work on to get to the next level and projecting where some combination of hard work and maturation might take you.  

 

For players below the 9-10 level they aren't passing final judgments on a player. They know that players develop.  They know what it takes to develop.  They are trying to project into the future based on all sorts of things how a player might develop.

 

Plus the information isn't just in the scores but in the brief write-ups as well.   They say things like "excellent present range with room to expand as strength and speed increases"   for example.   

 

 

Last edited by SluggerDad
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:

The thing that made my head glitch is the idea of some 2016 going to a showcase getting a 6 and because of that 6 he thinks he can and will play in college.  We battle on this board so much about parents wearing rose colored glasses....I wonder how many people have viewed their kids PG score and thought a 6 or a 7 proved they were good enough to play in college because that is what the explanation of the numbers says.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not the grade is accurate...I'm arguing whether or not the explanations are accurate, or if they just give false hope.

 

Delusional parents are a reality, but that's really not the fault of any evaluator or measuring standard, and there is no cure other than the reality that they will face in the coming years.  Much like a perfect SAT score is no guarantee that a student will attend an Ivy, neither does a good (or bad) PG grade guarantee playing (or not) at the next level.


We have a parent on my son's HS team who is completely delusional with his son's talent.  He received the camp email blast for the Stanford camp and immediately began throwing that in the HS coach's face as his son being "recruited" by Stanford.  His son is a rising Sr., made varsity as a backup last year (with an underclassman starting ahead of him) and likely projected for the same next season.  He's an outfielder only.  He plays no secondary position and doesn't pitch, so he's limited his options.  Frankly, while his dad believes he's one of the top players on the team and the best outfielder, in all honesty was the 4th best OF and somewhere around the 9th - 12th best player.  We currently have three DI SEC commits and just graduated a DI and DII with the 2015 class

 

He's not a bad player by any means.  He just isn't cracking the starting lineup.  I'm sure his dad will blame the coach, politics, etc., etc., but his PG grade is 7, which indicates he's a college prospect.  I would agree that he is.  He needs to add some strength and correct a few hitches, but he could certainly play college ball, just not in one of the top D1 conferences (Stanford most definitely included).

 

Now whatever his dad wants to make of his grade of 7 is up to him, but the grade is accurate based on my observation of the kid over the past three years.  He's not an 8 (Excellent college prospect), but could just as easily be considered a 6, (potential college prospect).  I could see where he would be graded a 7 from his single showcase based on his athleticism and whatever projectability was evident to the evaluators.  He has played in over a dozen PG tournaments over the years and been named to all-tournament teams twice.

 

I guess this is a REALLY lengthy way of saying that any false hope is in the eye of the beholder and how THEY want to perceive what the definition of the grades mean to them.

 

There is nothing that PG or any of us can do to fix that problem.  In fact, my solution is to just avoid the guy so I don't get roped into the one-sided conversation that would ensue.  He doesn't have any interest in hearing the truth from me or anyone else.  However, five years from now, reality will have revealed itself and he'll either be proven right, or confirm that politics, et al., were the reason his son didn't fulfill what should have been. 

SluggerDad,

 

Well, they have more experience. But I don't think your explanation negates my point.  Most good HS players do not play at the next level, and that divide doesn't show up in the ratings.

 

What would be interesting, and would give the numbers some bite, would be to know what percentage of players ranked at each grade go on to play college baseball and/or are drafted.

Last edited by JCG
Originally Posted by RedFishFool:

Smitty, that is exactly the case with my son. 

Mine too, but i cannot use location as a reason as we are in Atlanta, i really thought he had the stuff to get a deal based on his sophmore year/summer, college interest then and workout regimen/focus. I think about that $700 and the 3-4 invites ($2800 + expenses saved) we finally starting getting from PG after he was on the "map" with colleges and now use that money for a scooter for getting around campus, new set of golf clubs and whatever else he needs while over there in Clemson.

Originally Posted by kandkfunk:
...

In researching schools with my son, we've found quite a few players, especially pitchers, who are playing for D1 schools and don't have a PG rating at all. A few have pages on PG with some stats, but no rating. However, a lot do not show up on the PG site at all. I was a little surprised that there were so many.   

Kandk, I think one thing that happens often is many kids go to the showcases as HS sophs and juniors.  A few years later they are much stronger, better college players and don't want their PG videos, numbers, etc., to still be showing up from when they were younger, weaker, etc. for a variety of reasons so they contact PG and have them pulled.

Originally Posted by Nuke83:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:

 

Delusional parents are a reality, but that's really not the fault of any evaluator or measuring standard, and there is no cure other than the reality that they will face in the coming years.  Much like a perfect SAT score is no guarantee that a student will attend an Ivy, neither does a good (or bad) PG grade guarantee playing (or not) at the next level.


We have a parent on my son's HS team who is completely delusional with his son's talent.  He received the camp email blast for the Stanford camp and immediately began throwing that in the HS coach's face as his son being "recruited" by Stanford.  His son is a rising Sr., made varsity as a backup last year (with an underclassman starting ahead of him) and likely projected for the same next season.  He's an outfielder only.  He plays no secondary position and doesn't pitch, so he's limited his options.  Frankly, while his dad believes he's one of the top players on the team and the best outfielder, in all honesty was the 4th best OF and somewhere around the 9th - 12th best player.  We currently have three DI SEC commits and just graduated a DI and DII with the 2015 class

 

He's not a bad player by any means.  He just isn't cracking the starting lineup.  I'm sure his dad will blame the coach, politics, etc., etc., but his PG grade is 7, which indicates he's a college prospect.  I would agree that he is.  He needs to add some strength and correct a few hitches, but he could certainly play college ball, just not in one of the top D1 conferences (Stanford most definitely included).

 

Now whatever his dad wants to make of his grade of 7 is up to him, but the grade is accurate based on my observation of the kid over the past three years.  He's not an 8 (Excellent college prospect), but could just as easily be considered a 6, (potential college prospect).  I could see where he would be graded a 7 from his single showcase based on his athleticism and whatever projectability was evident to the evaluators.  He has played in over a dozen PG tournaments over the years and been named to all-tournament teams twice.

 

I guess this is a REALLY lengthy way of saying that any false hope is in the eye of the beholder and how THEY want to perceive what the definition of the grades mean to them.

 

There is nothing that PG or any of us can do to fix that problem.  In fact, my solution is to just avoid the guy so I don't get roped into the one-sided conversation that would ensue.  He doesn't have any interest in hearing the truth from me or anyone else.  However, five years from now, reality will have revealed itself and he'll either be proven right, or confirm that politics, et al., were the reason his son didn't fulfill what should have been. 

Hey, I know that same guy! (I think we all do).

Originally Posted by Shoveit4Ks:
Originally Posted by RedFishFool:

Smitty, that is exactly the case with my son. 

Mine too, but i cannot use location as a reason as we are in Atlanta, i really thought he had the stuff to get a deal based on his sophmore year/summer, college interest then and workout regimen/focus. I think about that $700 and the 3-4 invites ($2800 + expenses saved) we finally starting getting from PG after he was on the "map" with colleges and now use that money for a scooter for getting around campus, new set of golf clubs and whatever else he needs while over there in Clemson.

My son does have a rating but it was from the only showcase that he attended. That is why I mentioned, in our situation, that it is only showcases that have ratings. The other 7 PG events he has attended did not have ratings.

Originally Posted by RedFishFool:

k&k, do you attribute that to location (maybe not as good access to PG) or due to specifics schools/conferences or something else?

I was honestly thinking about location too. I am looking at Pac-12 schools who aren't necessarily the top in the conference and then some mid-level D1s. Some of the kids are from Cali, Texas and AZ though, so now I'm wondering if it's more the case of people asking for the ratings to be taken down as someone else suggested.

Originally Posted by RedFishFool:
Originally Posted by Shoveit4Ks:
Originally Posted by RedFishFool:

Smitty, that is exactly the case with my son. 

Mine too, but i cannot use location as a reason as we are in Atlanta, i really thought he had the stuff to get a deal based on his sophmore year/summer, college interest then and workout regimen/focus. I think about that $700 and the 3-4 invites ($2800 + expenses saved) we finally starting getting from PG after he was on the "map" with colleges and now use that money for a scooter for getting around campus, new set of golf clubs and whatever else he needs while over there in Clemson.

My son does have a rating but it was from the only showcase that he attended. That is why I mentioned, in our situation, that it is only showcases that have ratings. The other 7 PG events he has attended did not have ratings.

This is the answer. If you look at the events, you'll see that almost all of the guys with no rating have not attended a showcase. Many players attend numerous tournaments without attending a showcase and, therefore get no rating.

Although we are from Texas, many Texas boys play in PG tournaments, or tournaments with PG name, but they have never been to a showcase where they got rated. I do know that my son did not go to one until the Summer before his Senior year.

 

I will admit now, even though, as of last Summer, I had been reading this site for over a year.  I did not understand that that is how ratings were derived. And second, did not realize how important good PG ratings can be in the early stages of being recruited. Had I known that, I would have gotten him to a showcase in the Summer before his Junior year.

Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by RedFishFool:
Originally Posted by Shoveit4Ks:
Originally Posted by RedFishFool:

Smitty, that is exactly the case with my son. 

Mine too, but i cannot use location as a reason as we are in Atlanta, i really thought he had the stuff to get a deal based on his sophmore year/summer, college interest then and workout regimen/focus. I think about that $700 and the 3-4 invites ($2800 + expenses saved) we finally starting getting from PG after he was on the "map" with colleges and now use that money for a scooter for getting around campus, new set of golf clubs and whatever else he needs while over there in Clemson.

My son does have a rating but it was from the only showcase that he attended. That is why I mentioned, in our situation, that it is only showcases that have ratings. The other 7 PG events he has attended did not have ratings.

This is the answer. If you look at the events, you'll see that almost all of the guys with no rating have not attended a showcase. Many players attend numerous tournaments without attending a showcase and, therefore get no rating.

But PG does seem to RANK players on the basis of their performances in tournaments, even if they haven't done a PG showcase.

Judging from the complaints we get from parents, I don't think we are giving many false hopes.  Most parents feel their son is actually better than the grade we give him.  In a few cases we actually think their son is better than they thought. In those cases we are usually right.

 

The simple truth is most players that attend these showcases are pretty good.  Most are capable of playing college baseball at some level.  Guess I don't really understand "false hope".  I look at hope as a positive thing. I don't see false hope or true hope as anything but words.  Most amazing accomplishments could be said to be based on false hope according to others.

 

The grade is always based on potential.  It takes work to reach potential.  Anyone that receives a high grade and stops working, will not reach their potential.

 

Because our major goal is to find and identify the very best prospects in the country, we see most of the very best players out there. (10s). We know that because the draft proves it every year.  We miss one once in awhile, but not many.  Because of this, the colleges with the most players that attended PG events tend to be the top programs in the top conferences.  For example Vanderbilt and Virginia rosters are loaded with these players.

 

The PG grade (low or high) isn't enough by itself.   Though we know a very high grade does create a lot of interest.  There are 9s and 10s that end up at DIIs and DIIIs.  There are 6s and 7s that end up at DI.  And as mentioned earlier I know of at least three Major League players that we graded a 6.  You see, some prove us wrong.  It tickles me pink when a player proves us wrong.  It keeps us humble, but more important it renews my faith in what hard work and perseverance can accomplish.

 

When you have seen as many players as we have, you will have seen some amazing things.   Kids that look out of place when they were 15, becoming 1st round picks out of college.  Scrawny weak kids that become big power hitters. Pitchers throwing in the 70s that end up throwing in the 90s.   Maybe all of you have seen one or two examples of the above. We see it a lot!  Then you start looking for the things that these "later blooming" kids have in common.  So when you see a player you know and wonder why we graded him an 8 when you know he isn't that good... It's because he shows something (arm action, bat speed, athleticism, body type, instincts, body control, etc.) that gives him more potential than some of the present day more polished players. 

 

People say baseball is a marathon not a sprint.  I look at our grade pertaining more to a sprint.  What happens after the grade (the marathon) is what counts the most.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Judging from the complaints we get from parents, I don't think we are giving many false hopes.  Most parents feel their son is actually better than the grade we give him.  In a few cases we actually think their son is better than they thought. In those cases we are usually right.

 

Jerry,

 

No false hopes in my family. What your rating gave my son was additional assurance and confidence that he could compete with his peers!

Originally Posted by Nuke83:
We have a parent on my son's HS team who is completely delusional with his son's talent.  He received the camp email blast for the Stanford camp and immediately began throwing that in the HS coach's face as his son being "recruited" by Stanford.  

 

I remember being stunned when the father of one of my son's former teammates informed me that his son was being recruited by Miami. And as a matter of fact, they were flying to Miami in a few weeks for a camp so that they could get a closer look at him.

 

I was speechless. This poor guy actually believed a camp mass mailing was legitimate interest. The kid was an average high school player, and could probably play at a lower level JuCo. I honestly felt terrible for him. That trip was not an insignificant expense for them, and of course, nothing good ever came from it.

Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Originally Posted by Nuke83:
We have a parent on my son's HS team who is completely delusional with his son's talent.  He received the camp email blast for the Stanford camp and immediately began throwing that in the HS coach's face as his son being "recruited" by Stanford.  

 

I remember being stunned when the father of one of my son's former teammates informed me that his son was being recruited by Miami. And as a matter of fact, they were flying to Miami in a few weeks for a camp so that they could get a closer look at him.

 

I was speechless. This poor guy actually believed a camp mass mailing was legitimate interest. The kid was an average high school player, and could probably play at a lower level JuCo. I honestly felt terrible for him. That trip was not an insignificant expense for them, and of course, nothing good ever came from it.

Yeah, but the stories his son will be able to tell his own son years from now.  How he was a top recruit at Miami. If only . . . 

 

Uncle Rico: How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?... Yeah... Coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would've been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind. 

 

I remember being stunned when the father of one of my son's former teammates informed me that his son was being recruited by Miami. And as a matter of fact, they were flying to Miami in a few weeks for a camp so that they could get a closer look at him.

 

I was speechless. This poor guy actually believed a camp mass mailing was legitimate interest. The kid was an average high school player, and could probably play at a lower level JuCo. I honestly felt terrible for him. That trip was not an insignificant expense for them, and of course, nothing good ever came from it.

Yeah, but the stories his son will be able to tell his own son years from now.  How he was a top recruit at Miami. If only . . . 

 

Uncle Rico: How much you wanna make a bet I can throw a football over them mountains?... Yeah... Coach woulda put me in fourth quarter, we would've been state champions. No doubt. No doubt in my mind. 

Well played, Nuke!! Bravo, bravo.  Excellent reference...if I had the power, I'd allocate 1,000 points toward your Community Ranking for that alone.  "How much you wanna make a bet...?"....love that line alone, and it is quoted weekly if not daily at our house.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Judging from the complaints we get from parents, I don't think we are giving many false hopes.  Most parents feel their son is actually better than the grade we give him.  In a few cases we actually think their son is better than they thought. In those cases we are usually right.

 

The simple truth is most players that attend these showcases are pretty good.  Most are capable of playing college baseball at some level.  Guess I don't really understand "false hope".  I look at hope as a positive thing. I don't see false hope or true hope as anything but words.  Most amazing accomplishments could be said to be based on false hope according to others.

PG-thanks for the response.  To answer your question about what is false hope...I live near Lakepoint, this area is swarming with kids/parents that are certain they will be playing baseball in college, but most won't.  Those are just the odds.

 

If a 2016 comes to the PG showcase in December and gets a 7 he might look at the PG explanations of the numbers and spend his entire senior year chasing his baseball dream.  Dreams are great, every child represented on this board has/has a baseball dream...I just wish their was some kind of rating that would let that young man know that in 5 months he is unlikely to develop the skills to play baseball at the next level and he should enjoy his senior year, enjoy his last season with his high school friends.

 

I know, it's a personal thing, it's a "to each their own", if the 18u kid wants to chase his dream that's his choice...I just feel bad for the guys like Midatlantic talks about that don't understand getting a PG grade of a 7 five months before you graduate likely means you are done. Will there be the rare exception yes...but for those who don't live on this board they might think the trip to Miami is worth it because after all their PG score did say they were a college prospect.

 

I know no system is perfect, I just wish their were different levels for different years.  If a 9th grader gets a 7, well I think he can take that grade as a compliment and it may give him a boost to keep working hard.  If a 12th grader gets a 7...well, that's an entirely different ballgame (no pun intended).

Originally Posted by kandkfunk:
Originally Posted by Ripken Fan:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

My take is that the overall rating is nice for public consumption, but means little in the eyes of a recruiter. The raw numbers and written evaluations carry weight, but that rating # is just eye candy.

Agree somewhat with Roothog. As to OP Question, yes there have been students with low ratings who have gone on to play D1. The rating may have come when the player was young and hasn't been to PG events/showcases last 2-3 years before graduation. I also know of a pitcher/hitter who is playing D1(multiple offers- one ACC,all state in HS) who doesn't have a PG rating.

In researching schools with my son, we've found quite a few players, especially pitchers, who are playing for D1 schools and don't have a PG rating at all. A few have pages on PG with some stats, but no rating. However, a lot do not show up on the PG site at all. I was a little surprised that there were so many.   

I think a lot of that is where you are from and what the player is looking for. My son never went to a PG event and plays D1. But his focus was 3-4 hours from home or less (he ended up 20 minutes from home). There are no PG events in Ohio, so we showcased with the predominate showcase company in Ohio.

 It's because he shows something (arm action, bat speed, athleticism, body type, instincts, body control, etc.) that gives him more potential than some of the present day more polished players. 

 

I'm hoping PG can provide everyone the simple formula they use to blend and then project all of these traits along with their laundry list of traits.  I was going to ask about all the various traits PG and others might look at when evaluating a player and then thought better of it.  While I keep wanting a simple formula, I realize there is no such thing.  I guess you need to see it working all together first and then look at some of the more interesting pieces seperately.  I guess that is why video seems to be the key for recruiting coordinators and stats end up meaning little a year down the road. 

Originally Posted by chefmike7777:
Originally Posted by kandkfunk:
Originally Posted by Ripken Fan:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

My take is that the overall rating is nice for public consumption, but means little in the eyes of a recruiter. The raw numbers and written evaluations carry weight, but that rating # is just eye candy.

Agree somewhat with Roothog. As to OP Question, yes there have been students with low ratings who have gone on to play D1. The rating may have come when the player was young and hasn't been to PG events/showcases last 2-3 years before graduation. I also know of a pitcher/hitter who is playing D1(multiple offers- one ACC,all state in HS) who doesn't have a PG rating.

In researching schools with my son, we've found quite a few players, especially pitchers, who are playing for D1 schools and don't have a PG rating at all. A few have pages on PG with some stats, but no rating. However, a lot do not show up on the PG site at all. I was a little surprised that there were so many.   

I think a lot of that is where you are from and what the player is looking for. My son never went to a PG event and plays D1. But his focus was 3-4 hours from home or less (he ended up 20 minutes from home). There are no PG events in Ohio, so we showcased with the predominate showcase company in Ohio.

Great point too. We have a local prospect/scouting/recruiting group here in the NW that does a lot of local stuff. They mainly focus on Oregon, Washington and Idaho. If you want to play in the NW, its good to get in on their events. I think this organization has a lot more pull regionally than a PG event, although there is at least one PG showcase in the area each year. 

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
.....I just wish their was some kind of rating that would let that young man know...

CaCo, again, it won't be the grade, it will be seeing the other players around him and from that, getting a clearer picture of where he stands.  This PG showcase platform really does afford that opportunity...  maybe a couple hundred kids who are all viable candidates for college ball at various levels.  Where did son stack up against this group?  How do his measurables compare?  How does his grading COMPARE with the others and where are they heading?  Now, take a look at the other PG showcases scheduled around the country and do the math.  Understand, also, that there are regions as expressed here where many of the good players go to other branded showcases.  Then you start to get a much clearer vision of the big picture and where son may fit best.  So, again, I would suggest focusing less on the grade interpretation and more on discovering where son stacks up among the group of players that RC's are choosing from.   

Last edited by cabbagedad
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

Judging from the complaints we get from parents, I don't think we are giving many false hopes.  Most parents feel their son is actually better than the grade we give him.  In a few cases we actually think their son is better than they thought. In those cases we are usually right.

 

The simple truth is most players that attend these showcases are pretty good.  Most are capable of playing college baseball at some level.  Guess I don't really understand "false hope".  I look at hope as a positive thing. I don't see false hope or true hope as anything but words.  Most amazing accomplishments could be said to be based on false hope according to others.

PG-thanks for the response.  To answer your question about what is false hope...I live near Lakepoint, this area is swarming with kids/parents that are certain they will be playing baseball in college, but most won't.  Those are just the odds.

 

If a 2016 comes to the PG showcase in December and gets a 7 he might look at the PG explanations of the numbers and spend his entire senior year chasing his baseball dream.  Dreams are great, every child represented on this board has/has a baseball dream...I just wish their was some kind of rating that would let that young man know that in 5 months he is unlikely to develop the skills to play baseball at the next level and he should enjoy his senior year, enjoy his last season with his high school friends.

 

I know, it's a personal thing, it's a "to each their own", if the 18u kid wants to chase his dream that's his choice...I just feel bad for the guys like Midatlantic talks about that don't understand getting a PG grade of a 7 five months before you graduate likely means you are done. Will there be the rare exception yes...but for those who don't live on this board they might think the trip to Miami is worth it because after all their PG score did say they were a college prospect.

 

I know no system is perfect, I just wish their were different levels for different years.  If a 9th grader gets a 7, well I think he can take that grade as a compliment and it may give him a boost to keep working hard.  If a 12th grader gets a 7...well, that's an entirely different ballgame (no pun intended).

Where in the rating system does it say a 6 or 7 2016 cant play college ball?  

There are different levels for all different type of players. 

6 or 7 may reflect future potential and projections but if someone really wants to play and willing to put in the work it takes to improve skills, it can happen.

 

Not sure I understand the false hope thing.

 

While I agree that showcases can be costly, it definetly lets the player and the parent know where they fit into the equation, in comparison to their graduating class and their specific geographical area.  It also lets the player know what level to shoot for.

JMO

 

Last edited by TPM

It is difficult trying to explain this stuff.  Every player is different in some way.  

 

I will say this and I believe it.... If a player believes he is a potential 9 or 10 he should attend a showcase.  9s and 10s create the most interest.  So even if the player wants to stay very close to home, it always helps when other colleges are making offers.  You might end up at the local college, but with a much better offer.  You would be surprised what a BIG 10 college might offer when there are a couple of SEC offers to compete with. Or even what any college might offer when they find out you have many options. So if you are a potential 9 or 10, you should gain as much leverage as possible.  And most every college wants those 9 or 10 type players. Even if a 7 or 8 it could create interest, but 9s and 10s are legitimate no brainers regarding ability and potential.  But the Vanderbilt's, Virginia's, Florida's, UCLA, Texas's, LSU's, Stanford's, Arizona St's, etc., of the world don't have room for them all. However, everyone knows a 10 can possibly make a very big contribution at any program.

Many great explanations here, lots of insight and help with the grading system. I guess i'm just not that willing to pin my hopes or my kid's hopes on someone else grading system, in that...it would've been awesome for my son to get the 9 or 10, maybe he grades out at a 6 or 7 but even in the best case scenario nothing is guaranteed. If parents are falling in love with the PG grade's literal translation and talking with their kid about it and solely "pinning their hopes" on the college guarantee or possibility of playing D1 ball then something is wrong there Nothing in life is guaranteed and while positivity is awesome, you better have a back up plan. We hear about it all the time on this board, options for DII or D3 ball, if you want to play or continue playing when you didnt make D1 or the rosters are chock full of 10s and you may not "play". If baseball if a game that is based on overcoming failure to be successful, how if life much different? I've tried to be brutally honest with my son about competition, hard work and the fact that somewhere, there is always someone who will commit to out work you for your spot, over and over again and they will tell you they will beat you out. I saw an HBO sports episode recently that talked about our society telling kids, this new generation how awesome they are at everything, giving out trophies to everyone and how that promotes "false hope" that i think is referenced here. Shame on the parents of the younger generation, along with the educators, coaches and other enablers....it's gonna get really ugly when life happens to these kids. Talk about meltdowns. 

 

http://www.hbo.com/real-sports...o.html?autoplay=true

As for PG creating false hope, I think that is garbage.  If some parent is going to plop down $600 (plus travel, etc) and have no real appreciation for the product, then they are to blame.  I suspect PG, the organization, did not set out to monopolize college recruiting.  However, they have provided an excellent product and certainly the top 100+ college program do leverage PG analysis and data extensively.  What should PG do now - stop running showcases because a certain percentage of participants are not fully educated on how PG should fit into a much broader plan for the kid?  Instead, PG comes to sites like this and basically lays it out in black and white.  It is true that PG has created unrealistic expectations in some families, but to place this blame at PG's feet is simply wrong.  As Shoveit4Ks says, "shame on the parents".

It seems that the original poster is doing something that often happens with rating or scoring systems.   In general there is a tendency among evaluators to use only the upper end of a rating system. But once everybody is scored at the upper end ever finer gradations tend to be made  in order to allow distinctions to still be made among those being evaluated.  Gradually a difference that used to be marked by a full point, comes to be marked by a half point and then maybe even a quarter point.   So instead of 1 -10 scale, you end up with, say, a 3 or 4 point scale -- but with decimals.   You see this sort of grade inflation in lots of domains. 

 

But I don't think PG ratings have been subjected to this. And don't think they should be read that way.

 

Seems like PG means it when they say that 10's are, in their estimation,  top draft picks or elite college prospects or that 7's are college prospects and potential future draft picks with development. 

 

If somebody just told you that you kid was a college prospect and a potential future draft pick with development you'd be thrilled.  You'd tell the kid to work his butt of to reach his potential.   It's only when that's put on a 1-10 scale that you could even possible think  "that means he can't play in college and is done after high school."  

Last edited by SluggerDad
Originally Posted by 2017LHPscrewball:

As for PG creating false hope, I think that is garbage.  If some parent is going to plop down $600 (plus travel, etc) and have no real appreciation for the product, then they are to blame.  I suspect PG, the organization, did not set out to monopolize college recruiting.  However, they have provided an excellent product and certainly the top 100+ college program do leverage PG analysis and data extensively.  What should PG do now - stop running showcases because a certain percentage of participants are not fully educated on how PG should fit into a much broader plan for the kid?  Instead, PG comes to sites like this and basically lays it out in black and white.  It is true that PG has created unrealistic expectations in some families, but to place this blame at PG's feet is simply wrong.  As Shoveit4Ks says, "shame on the parents".

Hold your horses there 2017!  I'm not blaming anything on PG, please don't put words on this page that were NEVER there, nor was the intent.  My kid thinks PG is a tiny MLB, where the elite play, we go to LP just to watch other teams play. I have NOTHING against PG, and think the whole organization is fascinating. 

 

My question was does the verbal rating system match up with what people on here have experienced.  I had never seen the verbal explanations and they just seemed wrongly matched up...I would have thought only 9's and 10's were college prospects, the other number explanations had me scratching my head, and yes, feeling bad thinking that some poor kid who got a 6 his senior year still thinks he's a shoe in for college ball.  As it has been explained on here that kid will have also seen his peers exceed him at the showcase, but I still have a big heart and feel bad that a score of a 6 or 7 probably has some struggling family on their way to Miami thinking their kid has a shot...I'm supremely happy I'm not going to be one of the uneducated, but I still feel bad for others.

 

If this came across as slamming PG it was not intentional.

This is a common misunderstanding of not understanding.
I have known absolutely no one who has spent money on a showcase and had no understanding of the rating system.   I have known people who will use the experience as a learning process and use the information to improve.  If you are going to spend that type of money for an evaluation you better understand.
This has nothing to do with getting a letter to attend a camp where the player will have no chance of ever playing but sees that letter as a genuine interest because they s ont understand. The false hope does not reflect any negativity on PG.
JMO

JMO

I would think that if a kid goes to a PG showcase and performs like a 6, he did so in the midst of some stiff competition. He and his parents would be aware of how he stacked up and have a decent understanding about what that 6 means when compared to the other players they saw during the showcase or they are so delusional that even a "1" wouldn't turn their enthusiasm down to a realistic level.

Originally Posted by roothog66:

I would think that if a kid goes to a PG showcase and performs like a 6, he did so in the midst of some stiff competition. He and his parents would be aware of how he stacked up and have a decent understanding about what that 6 means when compared to the other players they saw during the showcase or they are so delusional that even a "1" wouldn't turn their enthusiasm down to a realistic level.

Sadly, in many cases, you would be wrong.  

Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

I would think that if a kid goes to a PG showcase and performs like a 6, he did so in the midst of some stiff competition. He and his parents would be aware of how he stacked up and have a decent understanding about what that 6 means when compared to the other players they saw during the showcase or they are so delusional that even a "1" wouldn't turn their enthusiasm down to a realistic level.

Sadly, in many cases, you would be wrong.  

Thus, my inclusion of the delusional parent for whom even a "1" wouldn't convince them of their place in the talent pool.

Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

I would think that if a kid goes to a PG showcase and performs like a 6, he did so in the midst of some stiff competition. He and his parents would be aware of how he stacked up and have a decent understanding about what that 6 means when compared to the other players they saw during the showcase or they are so delusional that even a "1" wouldn't turn their enthusiasm down to a realistic level.

Sadly, in many cases, you would be wrong.  

Thus, my inclusion of the delusional parent for whom even a "1" wouldn't convince them of their place in the talent pool.

I was thinking of the parent who rationalizes the 6 was really a 7.5, because Junior was nursing an injury, or his favorite bat broke in warm-ups, or his hands get stiff in the cold, etc. But you're right, even a "1" wouldn't change anything,

The PG rating is just another tool in the overall recruiting chest.  It is very subjective based on the evaluator, a players performance on specific date, time and conditions.  The most important numbers parents and players should be tracking and improving is their SAT, ACT & GPA.  These numbers will open up far more college opportunities than any showcase rating number.  Kudo's to Jerry and PG for always providing the color around concerns directed towards PG. 

On the subject, I did have another question. How do they handle the kid that goes to one of these as a two-way player and shows considerable talent as, say, a pitcher, and considerably lesser abilities as a position player? Do they then give him a rating based on the combination?

 

An example was this past weekend with my son. His future is as a pitcher. I mean, he's good with a bat and will probably be a 3 or 4 hitter on the high school varsity as a sophomore this year, but definitely not a D1 prospect. However, I put him in a PBR showcase as RHP/OF mainly to give him a good comparison and as a backup if maybe he doesn't progress as hoped and could play two-way in a lesser division in the future. OK, it was also just to keep him from getting too bored.

 

He threw two innings, hitting 85 which got him the attention he needs as a pitcher. However, as a position player he didn't show as well. he skipped the 60 due to his recent glute problem. He hit a miserable 75mph off the tee (we never hit from a tee) although he drilled the ball in the games. PBR doesn't give overall ratings, but I wondered how PG would have handled this. As a 2018, he's obviously a higher caliber recruit as a pitcher. I see guys on PG who throw 92mph, but are listed as, say, RHP/3B and run a 7.65 60 and throw 79mph across the diamond. If they are then a 9, has PG rated them as a high prospect as a pitcher and basically dismissed their position talents or has PG discounted their overall rating based on their poor performance as a position player?

Caco - my comment was not directed at you but rather some regular comments throughout this board that PG has some dark side that they perpetuate on purpose in pursuit of profits.  Comments like "PG's ratings should be more precise" may sound great but just don't fly.  If someone wants more precise ratings, they should build out an infrastructure that is superior to PG (good luck).  As folks point out, PG can help out but it is by no means the only avenue.  As a result, one can either take it or leave and stop blaming.  

 

I too feel bad when folks get disappointed, but feel less bad for the delusional parent.  I'm sure this has been happening long before PG came on the scene.  I've read elsewhere that PG tries to ensure that showcase participants have some base level of skill before they show up and doubt many kids who have zero shot at college baseball participate - they may just not like the level for which their skills fit.  

 

I always choose to blame the parents.  I'm having my 9 yo try out for travel ball because the local park, which 2017 played at, has probably 50% fewer players - the bottom 50% are still at it.  Park ball past machine pitch is apparently dying.  Instead, we get to pay 10x as much and end up playing park ball out of town.  Every (lots) parent with a 9 yo on a travel team equates it to some elite program and thus the delusion begins early.  Parents let this happen and now flock to PG as Mecca - again, why blame PG?  Sorry if I offended.

Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by MidAtlanticDad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

I would think that if a kid goes to a PG showcase and performs like a 6, he did so in the midst of some stiff competition. He and his parents would be aware of how he stacked up and have a decent understanding about what that 6 means when compared to the other players they saw during the showcase or they are so delusional that even a "1" wouldn't turn their enthusiasm down to a realistic level.

Sadly, in many cases, you would be wrong.  

Thus, my inclusion of the delusional parent for whom even a "1" wouldn't convince them of their place in the talent pool.

I was thinking of the parent who rationalizes the 6 was really a 7.5, because Junior was nursing an injury, or his favorite bat broke in warm-ups, or his hands get stiff in the cold, etc. But you're right, even a "1" wouldn't change anything,

I thought it was the umpire. 

Originally Posted by 2017LHPscrewball:

Caco - my comment was not directed at you but rather some regular comments throughout this board that PG has some dark side that they perpetuate on purpose in pursuit of profits.  Comments like "PG's ratings should be more precise" may sound great but just don't fly.  If someone wants more precise ratings, they should build out an infrastructure that is superior to PG (good luck).  As folks point out, PG can help out but it is by no means the only avenue.  As a result, one can either take it or leave and stop blaming.  

 

I too feel bad when folks get disappointed, but feel less bad for the delusional parent.  I'm sure this has been happening long before PG came on the scene.  I've read elsewhere that PG tries to ensure that showcase participants have some base level of skill before they show up and doubt many kids who have zero shot at college baseball participate - they may just not like the level for which their skills fit.  

 

I always choose to blame the parents.  I'm having my 9 yo try out for travel ball because the local park, which 2017 played at, has probably 50% fewer players - the bottom 50% are still at it.  Park ball past machine pitch is apparently dying.  Instead, we get to pay 10x as much and end up playing park ball out of town.  Every (lots) parent with a 9 yo on a travel team equates it to some elite program and thus the delusion begins early.  Parents let this happen and now flock to PG as Mecca - again, why blame PG?  Sorry if I offended.

Thanks for clarifying 2017LHP.  I don't blame PG per say for the delusional parents, but I do wish their was a different verbal system for 9th vs 12th graders...but perhaps the scorers take that into account while scoring.

 

I know what you mean about 9u, that was why we had to start the travel ball option, too many kids just starting baseball at 9u in the rec parks.  If I had left my son there he probably would need TJ surgery by now because he was being asked to play half the field, WHILE he was pitching...and yes this travel ball status, as some would say, has led to MANY an inflated ego.  These aren't rose colored glasses, this is an alternate reality. 

 

I knew of a 10u kid who flew all over the country playing on a special team that requires a 5K deposit!  He had his own website, built by his parents, where they showed video of him batting...most of the balls were hit to the left side of the net, pretty much directly at where the short stop would be.  I've seen this kid play, he was lucky to make the throw from 3B to 1B, and generally played 2B because of it, and in his bio he touted that he was an athletic 4'8, 75 pound player....those people feed their own delusions, I don't feel bad for them, but yes they will be the ones saying things about favorite broken bats and the kid had a cold coming on as reasoning for the low grade. 

Originally Posted by ATX2015:

The PG rating is just another tool in the overall recruiting chest.  It is very subjective based on the evaluator, a players performance on specific date, time and conditions.  The most important numbers parents and players should be tracking and improving is their SAT, ACT & GPA.  These numbers will open up far more college opportunities than any showcase rating number.  Kudo's to Jerry and PG for always providing the color around concerns directed towards PG. 

This!  

 

Been reading this whole thread and I wanted to address a couple of things I've been thinking about.

 

1st of all, I really don't think PG assigns their grade relative to the current showcase or regional context.  PG sees kids from all over the country.  They judge the talent, skills and potential future skills of the kid in regard to baseball, not in regard to other kids that live in that geographical area.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think these guys go into that much depth.  If you are a 6, you are a 6 regardless of where you are from or who else participated in that showcase.  If you are a 10, you are a 10 regardless of where you are from or who else participated in that showcase.  Maybe PGStaff can correct me if I'm wrong.  

 

The other thing is, the disparity of the talent of those playing college baseball is perhaps more diverse than some realize.  My son plays for one of the better D2 teams in the country.  During my son's 3 years there, they have consistently been ranked in the top 25, and have been as high as #3.  His team has played some out of conference D2 teams over the years that they have just destroyed on a consistent basis.  I'm talking scores of 28-0, 23-0, 26-1, etc.  Both teams are D2, but quite frankly, they shouldn't be on the same field together.  I think you can find the same thing within other divisions.  Last season, my son's team hit 74 HRs.  The D3 team a family friend's son played on hit 3.  Yes, as a team for the whole season.  The top national teams in each division are WAY different than the teams who play every year without a chance to win their conference or remotely compete on a national level.  I don't point this out to brag about my son's team, I'm just saying that I have seen college teams play that don't look like a good HS team.  

 

So, to say that a player who received a 6 or 7 has no realistic chance of playing college baseball is fairly naive.  A 6 is listed as a "Potential College Prospect".  I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility.  Will they play for Vanderbilt?  Chances are no.  Can they play for a low level D3 or a low level D2?  Definitely a possibility.

 

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but there are some college teams out there that are not very good.  Pretty much everyone who wants to play college ball can.  Whether their team will be any good is another story.

Last edited by bballman

The MLB Scouting scale is a 2-8 scale. Of course, those grades are seldom published anywhere.

 

It is a good system and we actually use it internally.  A 5 grade means MLB average in that tool.  So a 5 on the MLB scale would be more like a 9 on the PG scale.  In other words, MLB average is excellent for a high school age player.  

 

Once again, there is nothing misleading about the grades.  The grade is simply an opinion, just like some MLB Scouts would grade a player a 5, other MLB scouts might grade the same player a 4.  Happens all the time, but people just never know it.

 

Our grades are based on potential, our opinion of a player's ceiling or potential.  We use numbers and our eyes to form an opinion.  The more we see a player, the more accurate we become.  But there is no scientific formula that will tell you with certainty what the 16 year old will be like when he is 21 years old. It's really fairly simple, do you want that opinion or not?  I will say that we seem to be consistent with how college recruiters and pro scouts think.  

 

Take a program like Vanderbilt or Florida or most any SEC college.  Go to there website and click on their roster.  Then you can easily check those players old PG profile and see where they ranked or what their grade was, if they had a grade.  Seeing that I haven't done that, I'm just guessing.  But I bet you will see that most of those grades will be very high and there will also be some not so high.

 

The player or parent that thinks a high grade is all it takes would be mistaken.  Same goes for those that think a low grade means they are limited.  And I see nothing wrong with a young player that believes he is better than what others think. That is not false hope, that is real hope! What is worse, perceived false hope or understanding there is no hope.  Some parents will learn, many already know, there are kids out there right now that are the very worst player on their 12-13 year old team and they will become the very best prospect at their high school in 4 or 5 years.  

Originally Posted by bballman:

Been reading this whole thread and I wanted to address a couple of things I've been thinking about.

 

1st of all, I really don't think PG assigns their grade relative to the current showcase or regional context.  PG sees kids from all over the country.  They judge the talent, skills and potential future skills of the kid in regard to baseball, not in regard to other kids that live in that geographical area.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think these guys go into that much depth.  If you are a 6, you are a 6 regardless of where you are from or who else participated in that showcase.  If you are a 10, you are a 10 regardless of where you are from or who else participated in that showcase.  Maybe PGStaff can correct me if I'm wrong.  

 

The other thing is, the disparity of the talent of those playing college baseball is perhaps more diverse than some realize.  My son plays for one of the better D2 teams in the country.  During my son's 3 years there, they have consistently been ranked in the top 25, and have been as high as #3.  His team has played some out of conference D2 teams over the years that they have just destroyed on a consistent basis.  I'm talking scores of 28-0, 23-0, 26-1, etc.  Both teams are D2, but quite frankly, they shouldn't be on the same field together.  I think you can find the same thing within other divisions.  Last season, my son's team hit 74 HRs.  The D3 team a family friend's son played on hit 3.  Yes, as a team for the whole season.  The top national teams in each division are WAY different than the teams who play every year without a chance to win their conference or remotely compete on a national level.  I don't point this out to brag about my son's team, I'm just saying that I have seen college teams play that don't look like a good HS team.  

 

So, to say that a player who received a 6 or 7 has no realistic chance of playing college baseball is fairly naive.  A 6 is listed as a "Potential College Prospect".  I don't think that's beyond the realm of possibility.  Will they play for Vanderbilt?  Chances are no.  Can they play for a low level D3 or a low level D2?  Definitely a possibility.

 

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but there are some college teams out there that are not very good.  Pretty much everyone who wants to play college ball can.  Whether their team will be any good is another story.

PG does not rate each other. 

What I meant was if my son lives in Florida more than likely he will be in a showcase in Florida, not in another state. So this gives him an idea of competition for college and the draft.

Originally Posted by TPM:
 

PG does not rate each other. 

What I meant was if my son lives in Florida more than likely he will be in a showcase in Florida, not in another state. So this gives him an idea of competition for college and the draft.

Yes, while at the showcase, a player and parent will see who he will most likely be competing against for a college roster spot.  

 

But he will not be graded in relation to those players only.  It wasn't specifically you I was talking about TPM.  There have been numerous comments on this thread that have alluded to the PG ratings being generated with a geographic tilt.

Scouting is projecting based on tools. At any age, in any location, vs. any competition.

 

caco: Are the words that define all PG grades definitive? No. But as PGStaff says -- the 9's and 10's are. I think what you'd like to see is the scale indicate that someone with a 6 or 6.5 has virtually no chance to play college ball. Maybe -- but as bballman says, there's lots of variability in college talent.

 

 

This series of articles on FanGraph goes deeper than anything I've found about professional baseball's 2-8 scale. Some cold hard truths ... and still there's subjectivity.

 

Here's the chart, for those who don't have time to read it:

 



 

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Last edited by jp24

So JP.....a sixteen year old that throws 87, but is kinda big, quick arm action and has room to fill out, a scout "projects him" to throw 93 in (blank) years would rate the FB a "plus" fastball at sixteen?  And following that logic, PG would rate him a "9" (or something) at a showcase when he is 16?

 

So the MLB pipeline tool scoring and the PG is what the player is projected to be based on eyes and some metrics (velocity, 60 time, bat speed etc.)

 

Just seeking understanding.  I understand that it is an art as much as a skill in projecting and scouting.

Seems like this thread was generated by a simple misunderstanding.  (though some decent conversation has ensued).

 

CaCo, for reasons based on who knows what,  somehow got it in her mind that only grades 9 and 10 from PG were intended to be indicative of "college level talent."

 

 Then when she read (old versions of) the accompanying descriptions of what the grades are intended to mean which suggested otherwise, she somehow had the feeling that maybe deluded people were letting themselves be sold a bill of goods by PG.  Not  that she necessarily thought that PG actively intended to be peddling false hope.  But you  know how people are.  It's so easy to take advantage of them. And there seemed to be an undercurrent that that was what PG was doing somehow.   I mean think of all those deluded people who were taken in by those descriptions and so had the misfortune of letting  themselves believe that guys who score  8 or 7 or heaven forbid 6 on this particular scale were maybe good enough to play in college at some level or other. Surely, she seems to have thought, PG need to change how it tells people to interpret the numbers to protect people from themselves. 

 

Where she got all that who knows, really?    There never seemed to be  any real  basis for her initial belief,  except her hunch as far as I could tell, that only a 9 or a 10 could possibly indicate college level talent on any reasonable rating scale.

 

She can stick to that hunch if that suits her for some reason.   Or she can adjust  her belief.  Seems pretty simple, though.  Plus I doubt the descriptions are going to change to match up with her prior beliefs.

Last edited by SluggerDad
Originally Posted by Go44dad:

So JP.....a sixteen year old that throws 87, but is kinda big, quick arm action and has room to fill out, a scout "projects him" to throw 93 in (blank) years would rate the FB a "plus" fastball at sixteen?  And following that logic, PG would rate him a "9" (or something) at a showcase when he is 16?

 

So the MLB pipeline tool scoring and the PG is what the player is projected to be based on eyes and some metrics (velocity, 60 time, bat speed etc.)

 

Just seeking understanding.  I understand that it is an art as much as a skill in projecting and scouting.

You have to read it -- really. It's all about Present Grade and Future Grade.

 

In Part 5, you find this, on amateur hitters, for example:

 

"All but maybe one or two hitters in each draft class will have present 20 hit grades, but the context and amount of evidence will vary greatly.  The peer hitting grade helps tie this all together because, for a player with a short track record, scouts will find themselves projecting only on hitting tools when there isn’t much performance to grade. Using this system, it helps remind you to consider performance, but still weighing it appropriately given the sample size, competition level, etc."

Just for clarification,  there is no regional aspect to the grades.  Also no event basis for grades.  We do showcases that might not have a single 10 grade.  We do showcases that will have as many as 100 10 grades. i.e. National Showcase. A 10 is a 10 in Calfornia or Florida or Canada. Same goes for a 6.

 

Also the scouting scale displayed by JP I details the actual MLB averages.  So a high school kid throwing 90 mph or a 60 time of 6.9 is already a 5 or 50 on the MLB scale without any projection.  On our scale he would grade a 9 at those tools.  Then projection could easily give him a 10.  The grade associated with a scouts view of a players potential is called OFP.  So there is a current grade based on current level of that player, 4.2 HTF time = 5 or 50 current grade.  If the scout sees some potential that the player might get faster in the future, he could upgrade that grade.  In the end all the numbers are added up divided by the number of skills and the player ends up with an OFP score. Overall Future Potential. Once again, an OFP of 50 is MLB average (Future potential)

Last edited by PGStaff
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

... And most every college wants those 9 or 10 type players. Even if a 7 or 8 it could create interest, but 9s and 10s are legitimate no brainers regarding ability and potential.  But the Vanderbilt's, Virginia's, Florida's, UCLA, Texas's, LSU's, Stanford's, Arizona St's, etc., of the world don't have room for them all....

You don't have to get a PG  grade to get recruited.  

 

Conversely, I know of players with grades of 9-9.5 that didn't play much their freshman or sophomore years.  

 

Getting a PG grade is just one tool in the recruiting process.

 

 

Originally Posted by keewart:
 

Conversely, I know of players with grades of 9-9.5 that didn't play much their freshman or sophomore years.  

 

Getting a PG grade is just one tool in the recruiting process.

 

 

I know of player rated 9 by PG who played on the JV team of a D3 school his freshman year.   Didn't even get a cup of tea on the varsity that year. 

SluggerDad,

 

I believe you and would be very interested in who that player is and which college he went to. I could easily see where a 9 might not play right away at certain DI programs.  Especially those loaded with 9 and above type players.

 

But unless it is one of the nation's top DIII programs I would expect a 9 to play right away.  Then it could be a case where we graded that player too high. Or it could be a player that simply didn't work and improve.  Actually it could be any of a number of things.  In any case, It's always good to look back and see what happened.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:

SluggerDad,

 

I believe you and would be very interested in who that player is and which college he went to. I could easily see where a 9 might not play right away at certain DI programs.  Especially those loaded with 9 and above type players.

 

But unless it is one of the nation's top DIII programs I would expect a 9 to play right away.  Then it could be a case where we graded that player too high. Or it could be a player that simply didn't work and improve.  Actually it could be any of a number of things.  In any case, It's always good to look back and see what happened.

sent you a PM

Originally Posted by roothog66:

OK. I resurrected this because, while looking for someone else, I came across a PG profile that answers the question. I won't post a link, out of deference to the young man, but if you want a link, PM me. The kid earned a "4". Catcher with an 8.99 60 time and a 2.38 pop time.

Of course, most kids like this probably wouldn't bother to show up at a PG showcase, I would think.  

Originally Posted by SluggerDad:
Originally Posted by roothog66:

OK. I resurrected this because, while looking for someone else, I came across a PG profile that answers the question. I won't post a link, out of deference to the young man, but if you want a link, PM me. The kid earned a "4". Catcher with an 8.99 60 time and a 2.38 pop time.

Of course, most kids like this probably wouldn't bother to show up at a PG showcase, I would think.  

You would think. However, looking at the percentiles, bit of those stats weren't the absolute worst. Hey, everybody has a right to figure out where they stand. I couldn't possibly think of anything PG does that would have enticed him unreasonably. However, I always love the comments. Even after raking a kid, they like to soften the blow. His comment section had this:

 

"He has baseball skills he just needs to get in better shape."

Originally Posted by #1 Assistant Coach:

I know a young man who scored a 6.5 at a PG Showcase.  He was 14.

 

Nine months later he made unofficial visits to (2) ACC schools and an Atlantic-10.

 

Still uncommitted, but you get the point.

  

I have to laugh..........while posting on another thread regarding the Cape League, I mentioned a young man I remember who was an LHP at a D-3 NESCAC school and managed to get himself a roster spot in the Cape Cod League in 2011.  Played for the Chatham Anglers. 

 

Summer before his senior year of high school his range was 74-76mph.  PG gave him a grade of 7.0. 

 

FOUR YEARS LATER HE WAS PITCHING IN THE CAPE LEAGUE.  One year after that, he signed as a free agent with the Arizona Diamondbacks, and later pitched in Orioles organization.  He retired in 2014 and is now putting his NESCAC degree to work.

 

As Bucsfan stated, a PG rating is "just a point in time."

Last edited by #1 Assistant Coach
Originally Posted by #1 Assistant Coach:
Originally Posted by #1 Assistant Coach:

I know a young man who scored a 6.5 at a PG Showcase.  He was 14.

 

Nine months later he made unofficial visits to (2) ACC schools and an Atlantic-10.

 

Still uncommitted, but you get the point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to laugh..........while posting on another thread regarding the Cape League, I mentioned a young man I remember who was an LHP at a D-3 NESCAC school and managed to get himself a roster spot in the Cape Cod League in 2011.  Played for the Chatham Anglers. 

 

Summer before his senior year of high school his range was 74-76mph.  PG gave him a grade of 7.0. 

 

FOUR YEARS LATER HE WAS PITCHING IN THE CAPE LEAGUE.  One year after that, he signed as a free agent with the Arizona Diamondbacks, and later pitched in Orioles organization.  He retired in 2014 and is now putting his NESCAC degree to work.

 

As Bucsfan stated, a PG rating is "just a point in time."

And if you look at the PG definition of a "7" it reads "College prospect, possible future draft pick with development".

 

I think most people are putting way too much stock in a rating and assume that a 9-10 is a guaranteed draft pick or D1 freshman starter and anything 8 or below is lucky to play after high school.

 

Like you state, it's a snapshot in time and whether a player grows or shrinks from there is dependent on a lot of variables.

Originally Posted by Nuke83:
Originally Posted by #1 Assistant Coach:
Originally Posted by #1 Assistant Coach:

I know a young man who scored a 6.5 at a PG Showcase.  He was 14.

 

Nine months later he made unofficial visits to (2) ACC schools and an Atlantic-10.

 

Still uncommitted, but you get the point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to laugh..........while posting on another thread regarding the Cape League, I mentioned a young man I remember who was an LHP at a D-3 NESCAC school and managed to get himself a roster spot in the Cape Cod League in 2011.  Played for the Chatham Anglers. 

 

Summer before his senior year of high school his range was 74-76mph.  PG gave him a grade of 7.0. 

 

FOUR YEARS LATER HE WAS PITCHING IN THE CAPE LEAGUE.  One year after that, he signed as a free agent with the Arizona Diamondbacks, and later pitched in Orioles organization.  He retired in 2014 and is now putting his NESCAC degree to work.

 

As Bucsfan stated, a PG rating is "just a point in time."

And if you look at the PG definition of a "7" it reads "College prospect, possible future draft pick with development".

 

I think most people are putting way too much stock in a rating and assume that a 9-10 is a guaranteed draft pick or D1 freshman starter and anything 8 or below is lucky to play after high school.

 

Like you state, it's a snapshot in time and whether a player grows or shrinks from there is dependent on a lot of variables.

that's basically what got this thread started.  The OP decided for her self that anything below a 9 or 10 (on a 10 point rating scale no less)  must be a kiss of death for a kid' hopes of playing in college.   Then when she found out what the scores were said by PG to mean, she had the vague suspicion that deluded parents and players with unrealistic visions of grandeur were somehow being sold false hopes by PG.  Instead of readjusting her prior belief that only a 9 or 10 could possibly indicate college talent,  she stuck with her guns.   Basically she was engaging in good old fashioned confirmation bias.    

Last edited by SluggerDad
Originally Posted by SluggerDad:
Originally Posted by Nuke83:
Originally Posted by #1 Assistant Coach:
Originally Posted by #1 Assistant Coach:

I know a young man who scored a 6.5 at a PG Showcase.  He was 14.

 

Nine months later he made unofficial visits to (2) ACC schools and an Atlantic-10.

 

Still uncommitted, but you get the point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to laugh..........while posting on another thread regarding the Cape League, I mentioned a young man I remember who was an LHP at a D-3 NESCAC school and managed to get himself a roster spot in the Cape Cod League in 2011.  Played for the Chatham Anglers. 

 

Summer before his senior year of high school his range was 74-76mph.  PG gave him a grade of 7.0. 

 

FOUR YEARS LATER HE WAS PITCHING IN THE CAPE LEAGUE.  One year after that, he signed as a free agent with the Arizona Diamondbacks, and later pitched in Orioles organization.  He retired in 2014 and is now putting his NESCAC degree to work.

 

As Bucsfan stated, a PG rating is "just a point in time."

And if you look at the PG definition of a "7" it reads "College prospect, possible future draft pick with development".

 

I think most people are putting way too much stock in a rating and assume that a 9-10 is a guaranteed draft pick or D1 freshman starter and anything 8 or below is lucky to play after high school.

 

Like you state, it's a snapshot in time and whether a player grows or shrinks from there is dependent on a lot of variables.

that's basically what got this thread started.  The OP decided for her self that anything below a 9 or 10 (on a 10 point rating scale no less)  must be a kiss of death for a kid' hopes of playing in college.   Then when she found out what the scores were said by PG to mean, she had the vague suspicion that deluded parents and players with unrealistic visions of grandeur were somehow being sold false hopes by PG.  Instead of readjusting her prior belief that only a 9 or 10 could possibly indicate college talent,  she stuck with her guns.   Basically she was engaging in good old fashioned confirmation bias.    

Hate to disagree, but since I am the OP in question I will.  I will agree that I thought anything below a 9 or a 10 was the kiss of death for playing after high school.  The meanings I had originally found which prompted the post stated that a rating of a 6 meant you were a college prospect. 

 

I have now been educated that only a 9 or 10 is likely to play D1, providing it was an evaluation done close to graduation. However, there are a thousand no name colleges with baseball programs and if you can pay to go that school almost anyone can be on a baseball team in college.  I have surmised that since a LOT of the PG grade is based on athletic ability an in shape soccer player who has only played the occasional sandlot baseball could likely score at least a 6 because as others have said it is the base the scouts are looking for, not the actual tools.  

 

 I did have the hope that PG was at least one place you could take your kid to get a real evaluation of his skill, and an idea of which level program to shoot for, if any. I am actually a bit sad that when it is time to have my son looked at to gauge his skill (because I don't know anything, and at least know enough to know that I don't know), I now have no idea where to take him to be evaluated.  I guess he could write letters to every single college in the state of Georgia, Tennessee, Florida and South Carolina with a baseball program but I was hoping a PG grade would narrow that down a bit, but as I've said, that delusion is now gone.

 

Thank you everyone for the education, I feel a bit like Santa has been taken away, but I will get over it.

 

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
 

 

I have now been educated that only a 9 or 10 is likely to play D1, providing it was an evaluation done close to graduation. However, there are a thousand no name colleges with baseball programs and if you can pay to go that school almost anyone can be on a baseball team in college.  I have surmised that since a LOT of the PG grade is based on athletic ability an in shape soccer player who has only played the occasional sandlot baseball could likely score at least a 6 because as others have said it is the base the scouts are looking for, not the actual tools.  

 

 

I think you have seriously missed the point.  You are way off base -- way off -- with this comment. 

Originally Posted by SluggerDad:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
 

 

I have now been educated that only a 9 or 10 is likely to play D1, providing it was an evaluation done close to graduation. However, there are a thousand no name colleges with baseball programs and if you can pay to go that school almost anyone can be on a baseball team in college.  I have surmised that since a LOT of the PG grade is based on athletic ability an in shape soccer player who has only played the occasional sandlot baseball could likely score at least a 6 because as others have said it is the base the scouts are looking for, not the actual tools.  

 

 

I think you have seriously missed the point.  You are way off base -- way off -- with this comment. 

How so?  Which part? 

Originally Posted by SluggerDad:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
 

 

I have now been educated that only a 9 or 10 is likely to play D1, providing it was an evaluation done close to graduation. However, there are a thousand no name colleges with baseball programs and if you can pay to go that school almost anyone can be on a baseball team in college.   

I think you have seriously missed the point.  You are way off base -- way off -- with this comment. 

WAY off, especially with what is in bold above....OP, let me set you straight, and I mean this with all sincerity and compassion.  Other than having your son work out for some local scouts or in front of college coaches who will give honest and direct feedback, there is NOTHING better you can do than to take your son to a PG showcase to have him evaluated.  If you need to forget that you ever read anything on this thread in order to believe this, then IMO do so.  After you get the evaluation (rating and comments along with measurables), perhaps come back to this site and several of us can help you interpret what was provided.  We'd be happy to do so.

Last edited by BucsFan

First of all, I don't know who ever said that "tools" don't matter to a scout, recruiter or evaluator, but that is not accurate to start with.  Of course tools matter.  Maybe someone said in-game performance may not matter, depending on what tools the player shows, but tools do matter.  And I'm not exactly sure what "base" you are talking about.  Do you mean velocity, 60 time, pop time, etc...?  An athletic soccer player will probably not be able to come in and score a 6.  There needs to be SOME baseball skills there to garner even that number.  

 

Of course the PG evaluation will give you an idea where your son stacks up.  If he gets a 10, he's a super talented player is is looking at a minimum of a D1 opportunity.  If he's a 6, he's probably an average prospect.  Some baseball tools, but he has a LOT to work on.  My son was an 8 his first showcase and an 8.5 his second showcase a little over a year later.  He wound up at a top D2 program.  That's probably where he belonged.  Just because he was not a 9 or 10 didn't mean he wasn't a college prospect.  

 

CaCO3Girl, this stuff is not set in stone.  I know you have a scientific background and like concrete information.  Evaluating baseball talent is not like that.  There is no if you are a 10, you'll go D1, if you are an 8, you'll go D2, etc...  Beauty is often in the eye of the beholder.  There may be a 10 that goes D3.  There may be a 7 who goes D1.  

 

Suffice it to say, the higher your number, the better your tools showed at that showcase.  The lower your number, the more your tools did not show.  And yes, a big part of the evaluation is based on things like speed and velocity.  However, there has to be some baseball acumen there as well.  

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by SluggerDad:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
 

 

I have now been educated that only a 9 or 10 is likely to play D1, providing it was an evaluation done close to graduation. However, there are a thousand no name colleges with baseball programs and if you can pay to go that school almost anyone can be on a baseball team in college.  I have surmised that since a LOT of the PG grade is based on athletic ability an in shape soccer player who has only played the occasional sandlot baseball could likely score at least a 6 because as others have said it is the base the scouts are looking for, not the actual tools.  

 

 

I think you have seriously missed the point.  You are way off base -- way off -- with this comment. 

How so?  Which part? 

The whole thing.  Just so much confusion in what you wrote.  I don't know where to begin.

 

I'll give you some concrete examples to illustrate how far off base you are with that silly comment/   The starting shortstop on my son's HS team for the last 2 years -- a kid who has started at SS since he was a sophomore -- and is now a rising senior -- earned a 6 in his first perfect game showcase --as a rising junior. And we are talking the starting ss in at a very competitive school in a very competitive conference in one of the hotbeds of HS baseball in this country.  Was he an absolute stud?  No, but at a PG 6, he was a league  honorable mention at shortstop that year.  Cause he made all the routine plays game in and game out,  never had an error, and was a decent slap hitter. 

 

This summer, he raised his PG rating  to a 7.5 and is now on the PG "follow" list. He was 2nd team all league this past year.  he is bigger and stronger and somewhat faster.  

 PG in very complimentary  accompanying comments says he can definitely play in college, but probably projects more as a 2nd baseman, than as a ss at the college level.  I know lots of highly competitive D3 and probably a few D2's that would take a kid with his skills and polish. 

 

Now  If you had ever seen this kid play and calibrated just by reference to him --  that he was a 6 last year  and now --mainly with greater arm strength and in improved swing -- is a 7.5 --  it would be just plain laughable to say as you did  that a soccer player with no baseball experience could match this kid, even as he was as a rising junior.

 

Another for instance.   My son's college team -- which is an elite D3 team --that has had a good number of kids drafted over the year -- is actually filled with kids whose PG rankings were 7's and 8's. There is an occasional  9 or 10 among them, but not many.  And at the low end there is at least  one 6.5.    

 

So you need to do some serious recalibration -- which you haven't really done.  PG ratings are much more  nuanced and well thought out than you are giving the credit for.  And they don't suffer from grade inflation.  They are not meant to answer a simple yes-no question -- "Can my kid play somewhere in college."   They are intended to help not just college recruiters, but also major league scouts, and also, of course, parents and players figure out where they belong in the complicated baseball landscape after HS.

 

I think that what you don't seem to understand is the levels of talent that PG is trying to distinguish among.  a 10 is an early round draft pick, potentially right out of HS.    Many of the kids PG ranks 9 or 10 actually will be drafted out of HS.   Not all of them, and not necessarily in the top rounds.  I know some of those type guys. My son has even played with a few of them over the years.   Do you have any appreciation of what an extraordinary level of talent it takes to be rated a PG 10?    Even 9's are extraordinarily talented.  They stand out from any crowd of talented baseball players with highly developed baseball skills -- and not just from the crowd of athletic kids in general.  They are really, really special. 

 

Think about it this way. There are only 300 draft picks in the first 10 round every year  (ignoring compensation picks.)    If everybody who was able to play college baseball had to be as good as the best 300 players in any given year, it would be a lot smaller universe of players.  A lot smaller.  But there are like 55,000  kids playing college baseball.   Most of them aren't going to sniff the MLB draft, let alone the top 10 rounds of the draft.  There are 10,000 kids playing D1 baseball alone and most of them aren't ever going to sniff the draft either, again, let alone the top 10 rounds of the draft.  But I tell you what most of the 12,000 kids playing at D3 would run rings around your in shape soccer player who's never picked up a baseball.   

 

Last edited by SluggerDad

All I can say is I try to read this board to become knowledgeable, and I know that future generations will be reading this thread.  I am not actually trying to be argumentative, I am actually trying to learn.  There are some very knowledgeable people on here that I tend to believe when they say something, but I am also a scientist as Bballman said, and my world is typically in black and white because I do crave concrete data.  I'm not trying to call anyone out or throw them under the bus.  If I misunderstood I apologize, but here is how I drew my conclusions:

 

Soccer player comment (keep in mind I said he would get a 6), and the base (perhaps I should have used the words athletic ability?) being more important than the tools:

On 8/12/15 at 5:00PM BucsFan said “Just by showing up and not tripping over oneself, a player can probably get a 6. “ 

 

8/13/15 2:43PM PG Staff Said “The grade is always based on potential.”  He also said in the same post “So when you see a player you know and wonder why we graded him an 8 when you know he isn't that good... It's because he shows something (arm action, bat speed, athleticism, body type, instincts, body control, etc.) that gives him more potential than some of the present day more polished players. “

 

8/14/15 6:13PM PG Staff said “So a high school kid throwing 90 mph or a 60 time of 6.9 is already a 5 or 50 on the MLB scale without any projection.”

 

9’s and 10’s play D1 comment:

On 8/12/15 at 6:05PM Cabbagedad said “I think most 8's would be borderline or not quite major or mid-major D1 potentially.”  BBallman has also made a statement about his son being an 8.5 and landing D2.

 

8/14/15 at 2:43 AM PG Staff said “And most every college wants those 9 or 10 type players. Even if a 7 or 8 it could create interest, but 9s and 10s are legitimate no brainers regarding ability and potential.  But the Vanderbilt's, Virginia's, Florida's, UCLA, Texas's, LSU's, Stanford's, Arizona St's, etc., of the world don't have room for them all. However, everyone knows a 10 can possibly make a very big contribution at any program.”

 

My statement about many colleges and being able to play were based on the following:

8/13/15 10:16PM TPM said “Where in the rating system does it say a 6 or 7 2016 cant play college ball?  There are different levels for all different type of players. “

 

8/14/15 2:28 PM BBallman said “I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but there are some college teams out there that are not very good.  Pretty much everyone who wants to play college ball can.  Whether their team will be any good is another story.”

 

I hope that clears up why I came to those conclusions.

P.S. Personally knowing two 2016 10's probably didn't help!

Last edited by CaCO3Girl

For those who crave concrete data, I would suggest joining PG, then plugging in the names of currently-rostered players on some schools your son is interested in. Sort it by the position your son plays or any other method you like.

 

Not all currently-rostered college players will be in the PG database, but I think you will be able to get enough data points to draw reasonable conclusions about how PG grades correlate (or not) to roster spots at your selected schools.

 

Then you could come back and educate us. I, for one,  would be very interested to see the results of your work

I don't disagree with any of those statements quoted, other than maybe this one -

 

"On 8/12/15 at 5:00PM BucsFan said “Just by showing up and not tripping over oneself, a player can probably get a 6. “ 

 

With that being said, I think you need to start with the premise that we are talking about baseball players here.  BucsFan's comment even falls into that category.  There needs to be some basis of baseball ability here, UNLESS there is a tool that stands out WAY above the norm.  In other words, if a kid shows up wanting to play baseball and runs a 6.2 60 yd dash, someone may give him a chance because he is so far ahead of the curve in this one area.  Same thing if a kid shows up throwing 98 mph and can't do anything else.  He's going to get a shot.

 

But, overall, the higher the number the more talent is presently shown.  The lower the number the less talent is presently shown.  Even then, it is up to the kid whether he progresses or digresses or has behavior problems or grade problems or something else.  And even then, there are extenuating circumstances that may put a kid in a different place.  There is NO way to put all of these different factors into a formula and come out with a "this player will definitely wind up at this level".  For instance, I know of a kid who was a 10.  Signed with a major D1.  Got in trouble and got kicked off the team.  Went to a JUCO and is now on a D2 team.  I think his grades would not let him get into a D1.  That is one example.  There may be some 10s out there that didn't have the grades in HS to get in a D1.  It happens.  There may be a kid who is an 8 at PG, but someone at a big D1 likes what he sees after seeing the kid multiple times over the summer.  They are looking for someone with his tool set and they sign him.  Maybe a kid doesn't want to go out of state to school.  And none of the in state schools have a need for him, even though he is a 9 or 10.  But they do have a need for an 8 that plays a different position.

 

Lots of different things can happen.  Nothing is as concrete as we would like it to be.  All that being said, I think the higher the grade a player earns, the more doors are potentially open to him.  Same with grades.  The higher the GPA and test scores, the more doors will be open.  I think by doing a PG showcase and getting a grade, it will give you a pretty good idea where your son stands and what he needs to do to improve.  It won't tell him where he WILL wind up going, but it will give him an idea about where he stands and what kind of potential he has.  What he does with that is up to him.

 

And by the way.  My son did have some interest from some mid level D1 schools as well.  His grades just weren't strong enough.  Lots of interest from a couple of them until he talked with them about his GPA and interest dropped off.  So, it was possible he could have wound up at a D1, but for some reasons (other than baseball related), he didn't wind up there.

 

All this is WAY too subjective to give definite concrete answers that fit into a neat formula.

Very well said, bballman and thanks for clarifying my comment.  If I knew the OP was a scientist and would take my comment literally, I would not have been so casual with that statement.  Maybe another way to put it...and maybe this is even misleading..is that if you took every single HS player (at every level, every roster slot) in the U.S., I bet the average player (if one could compile them and "create" one who represents the average) would even get a 6.  Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by BucsFan:

Very well said, bballman and thanks for clarifying my comment.  If I knew the OP was a scientist and would take my comment literally, I would not have been so casual with that statement.  Maybe another way to put it...and maybe this is even misleading..is that if you took every single HS player (at every level, every roster slot) in the U.S., I bet the average player (if one could compile them and "create" one who represents the average) would even get a 6.  Does that make sense?

Yeah, I would say that the "average" BASEBALL player would probably wind up with around a 6.  And we are talking about baseball players, not just your average HS student.  However, even with that statement, it is really hard to say what "average" is.  PG would probably have a better idea than most of us what that is because they have seen players from all over the country.

 

In other words, what is average in Boise, Idaho is probably a LOT different than what is average in the Metro Atlanta, Georgia area.  

 

Last edited by bballman

VERY logical response in your last post, Caco. Great job!

 

May I ask a question?

 

Do YOU believe, as a scientist, that there's a better way to project athletic talent in teenagers than the one PG has developed? 

 

I ask from two points of view:

 

1. They've been very accurate with my son.

2. They do miss quite a bit -- on both sides of the ledger. 

Adding to jp's comment, I think we need to recognize two categories of "athletic talent in teenagers"

 

First there are the sports that feature head-to-head competition (such as tennis and wrestling) and the "race" sports (such as track and swimming).

 

For these sports it is easier to compile specific and detailed rankings. Even so, using tennis as an example, some lower-ranked players get recruited over some higher ranked players, due to subjective intangibles that coaches may see, such as attitude and projectability.

 

For other sports such as baseball, football, basketball, volleyball...rankings or grades are less precise. We are all familiar with the "star" system used in lots of these sports. PG uses a 10-point scale. Same basic concept. At the same time none of us should be surprised to find lots of 3-star recruits (based on a 5-star system) playing on teams in the College Football Playoff.

 

In all these cases it is possible to "back-test" the accuracy of the ranking or grading system by comparing the rank or grade of players that [fill in the blank] school recruits, and the ultimate college/pro performance of the players.

 

I think this would be the most scientific way to approach the issue.

 

 

 

 

 

Last edited by Green Light
Originally Posted by jp24:

       

VERY logical response in your last post, Caco. Great job!

 

May I ask a question?

 

Do YOU believe, as a scientist, that there's a better way to project athletic talent in teenagers than the one PG has developed? 

 

I ask from two points of view:

 

1. They've been very accurate with my son.

2. They do miss quite a bit -- on both sides of the ledger. 


       


To be completely blunt I don't know anything, and therefor don't have a clue what would be better or worse than what PG does.

I can say that I can look at a formula in a beaker and know with 90% certainty if that formula will split.  This is a skill it has taken me many years to just know, I imagine judging baseball skill is much the same concept.  Some people can tell just by how a kid throws or catches a ball that he has "it", I have no concept of "it" so I was really hoping that a PG score would be my answer of if I was willing to invest heavily in getting my son seen/recruited, when the time came.

In my mind I can't judge his talent, I probably have the least colored glasses of any parent out there because I'm logical enough to see that Timmy can throw the ball harder, or Johnny hits the ball further than my son.  I started a topic awhile ago of did you over or under estimate your sons talent and that was the crux of why.  My son tells me he is going to play for a long time, but I see other kids doing things that to my eye seem better than him, then this past year I was inundated with compliments about him from the most random sources and frankly I didn't see half of what they complimented him on.

I know many people spend tens of thousands of dollars on getting their son to showcases, special teams, college circuit tours, camps....etc.  Some of those people never get a sniff from a college.  I was looking for a bar of sorts, well IF he gets X score at a PG showcase I'll spend all the money to help him achieve his dream, if he doesn't I'll have to sit him down for a reality check.  Now I hear that the average baseball player on an average high school team would get a 6 meaning college prospect and my bar so to speak kind of vanished.  Like I said earlier, I feel a bit like Santa got taken away.
If you take a look at this article - http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/inside_the_numbers.htm - on this site, you will see that about one out of ten HS seniors will go on to play college baseball. That's all there can be due to the sheer number of HS seniors playing baseball and the number of college spots that are open. Therefore, you would think the top 10% would be the ones to fill those spots. That's not necessarily true. I have known quite a few kids that had the talent to play college ball, but wanted to go to a big school, and their talent was not enough to allow them to play there. So, they decided to stop playing. Or there are kids that are good, but don't want to make the commitment to play in college. Or there are kids that don't market themselves appropriately and don't find a match. There are many reasons for some of those good HS players to not go on to play college baseball. Because of this, more kids that are closer to average could have the opportunity to play in college if they are willing to play at an appropriate level baseball program.

As I said earlier, the higher a rating you may receive, the more doors are likely open to you. A 10 can probably go D1, but a D2, D3, JUCO or NAIA are probably not going to turn him down. Conversely, a 6 can probably play at some less competitive D3, JUCO or NAIA, but a D1 will probably not take him (unless he's improved on that 6 and is no longer a 6) and he probably won't wind up in a top program at any level. So, his options are more limited. And keep in mind, PG describes that 6 as a "potential college prospect". Not a definite college prospect or an excellent college prospect or any of the wording of the higher rankings.   That's saying something without it actually saying it, if you know what I mean. This player has some work to do.

Not sure if we'll ever convince you, but the ratings are valid if you read into them the right way. None are meant to discourage a kid, which is why they are a little "soft" on the description part. I don't think PG wants to discourage a player from continuing his dream. A 6 can improve. There may be some programs out there looking for 6s. But the options are more limited than those options available for a 9.5 or 10.

Hope that makes a little more sense.

You have been given advice about how to assess PG grades from a scientific standpoint.

 

Now here is some advice about the  "Santa got taken away" observation...which is probably on the opposite end of the spectrum from science.

 

First, there is no Santa in sports evaluation, so Santa couldn't have been taken away in the first place. No need to feel badly about that...you are just like the rest of us...yours is not a special case.

 

What do the rest of us do? We see if the kid starts on his Little League, Cal Ripken, or Babe Ruth teams and if he does well...based on where the coach plays him, or bats him in the order, or how he is used as a pitcher, or if he makes all-stars.

 

We see if he starts on his high school team, if he is successful, how the coach uses him, and whether he is in demand for travel teams. Making local all-star teams? If he passes these tests we make decisions based on our budgets and available time about whether to take him to camps and showcases.

 

If the kid makes it that far, PG is not the only one who provides evaluations. Stanford, Headfirst, DeMarini and practically every college camp provide evaluations. You can ask in advance about this before you plunk down your time and money.

 

There is no certainty about the result, just as there is no certainty about any aspect of a kid's future. If a kid expresses interest in science, do you send him to a science camp? If there is an aptitude for languages do you enroll in an intensive program? These are all personal family decisions lots of us make all the time, without benefit of a ranking that tells us how successful the kid will be in college or as a professional in science or languages.

 

In baseball, as in many walks of life, the cream tends to rise to the top. Our job as parents, I think--not preaching here-- is to provide the best opportunities we can, consistent with our financial means.

 

My advice would be to pursue baseball opportunities and challenges for your son as long as he is having success at his current level...if your family is able.

 

 

Last edited by Green Light

Just happened to find this player on PG recently:

 

http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...ofile.aspx?ID=177947

 

Looks like PG gave him a 6 during his senior year of HS.  69mph IF throw.  7.9 60 yards. Not very impressive.

 

Played at a FL JC, then went to UCF, where he tore it up - won every award possible, played SS, stole bases, hit with power.

 

Drafted in the 7th round by the Rangers this year.  

 

There is  hope for the Sixers! (but not the ones in the NBA)

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
...This is a skill it has taken me many years to just know, I imagine judging baseball skill is much the same concept.  Some people can tell just by how a kid throws or catches a ball that he has "it", I have no concept of "it" so I was really hoping that a PG score would be my answer of if I was willing to invest heavily in getting my son seen/recruited, when the time came.

In my mind I can't judge his talent, I probably have the least colored glasses of any parent out there because I'm logical enough to see that Timmy can throw the ball harder, or Johnny hits the ball further than my son.  I started a topic awhile ago of did you over or under estimate your sons talent and that was the crux of why.  My son tells me he is going to play for a long time, but I see other kids doing things that to my eye seem better than him, then this past year I was inundated with compliments about him from the most random sources and frankly I didn't see half of what they complimented him on.

I know many people spend tens of thousands of dollars on getting their son to showcases, special teams, college circuit tours, camps....etc.  Some of those people never get a sniff from a college.  I was looking for a bar of sorts, well IF he gets X score at a PG showcase I'll spend all the money to help him achieve his dream, if he doesn't I'll have to sit him down for a reality check.  Now I hear that the average baseball player on an average high school team would get a 6 meaning college prospect and my bar so to speak kind of vanished.  Like I said earlier, I feel a bit like Santa got taken away.

CaCo, I'll try one more time.  This is a common sense statement and not a scientific one - MOST who rate 6 or lower at PG will not go on to play at college - probably not a lot unlike your 90% certainty formula.  MOST who rate 8 or higher will likely AT LEAST have the opportunity to play at some level of college IF they continue on a typical growth path, IF they continue to have the passion and work ethic to do so and IF they put forth a reasonable effort to be recruited.  A rating somewhere in between means just that.  Those players are more likely to be reliant on the many other variables that will ultimately determine whether they will play after HS.  And, if a player rates a 7 as a rising sophomore in HS, he probably has a much better chance to improve than a player who rates a 7 as a rising senior.

 

Previously in this thread, I stated...

"CaCo, again, it won't be the grade, it will be seeing the other players around him and from that, getting a clearer picture of where he stands.  This PG showcase platform really does afford that opportunity...  maybe a couple hundred kids who are all viable candidates for college ball at various levels.  Where did son stack up against this group?  How do his measurables compare?  How does his grading COMPARE with the others and where are they heading?  Now, take a look at the other PG showcases scheduled around the country and do the math.  Understand, also, that there are regions as expressed here where many of the good players go to other branded showcases.  Then you start to get a much clearer vision of the big picture and where son may fit best.  So, again, I would suggest focusing less on the grade interpretation and more on discovering where son stacks up among the group of players that RC's are choosing from."     

Again, when the time comes, use the PG rating as a COMPARISON with the other good players at PG and you AND your son will learn a great deal about where he stands.  Don't get too hung up on the rating "definition".  What is it about this that does not make sense?

 

I'm really a bit confused.  I read through this thread and felt there was a great deal of guidance that would leave you feeling more educated about how best to utilize the PG events and ratings and how they fit in the big picture as one of many measuring sticks (a very good one at that).  But, reading your last few posts, I can't help but feel you are using selective listening based on your preconceived viewpoints regardless of how many who have previously traveled the path suggest something different. (That's not to say that, in some of these instances, your viewpoints don't have a great deal of merit.)

 

You are still a few years off (give or take) from son going to a PG event.  You both will certainly learn a lot more between now and then and if and when he goes, there is a good chance you won't have to sit him down for a reality check afterward.  He will have just gone through it.

 

  

Last edited by cabbagedad

CaCo, as I recall your kid is still young.  I would suggest that it is way too early to worry about.  Get him to his Jr. year and take him to a showcase.  If his "grade" warrants it, then focus on where he may be able to play at the next level.  Too much can happen between now and then.  If he hits 90 mph before then (or does some other amazing thing), they your timeline will speed up.   

Originally Posted by JCG:

Just happened to find this player on PG recently:

 

http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...ofile.aspx?ID=177947

 

Looks like PG gave him a 6 during his senior year of HS.  69mph IF throw.  7.9 60 yards. Not very impressive.

 

Played at a FL JC, then went to UCF, where he tore it up - won every award possible, played SS, stole bases, hit with power.

 

Drafted in the 7th round by the Rangers this year.  

 

There is  hope for the Sixers! (but not the ones in the NBA)

Actually I think the grade was from 2009.  He would have been a sophomore. 

Originally Posted by BackstopDad32:

My son is one of those "7s" that will get the opportunity to see if he can get it done at a very solid D1 program. You don't have to spend a fortune but if it is his dream let him work for it until he is aware it is time to be done.  You might be pleasantly surprised at the outcome. 

Backstop, curious for myself, CaCo and others, how old was he when he rated 7, did you pretty much agree with rating and how much did he improve from that time to the time he was recruited to a D1?  Awesome that he did this, BTW!

Originally Posted by Golfman25:
Originally Posted by JCG:

Just happened to find this player on PG recently:

 

http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...ofile.aspx?ID=177947

 

Looks like PG gave him a 6 during his senior year of HS.  69mph IF throw.  7.9 60 yards. Not very impressive.

 

Played at a FL JC, then went to UCF, where he tore it up - won every award possible, played SS, stole bases, hit with power.

 

Drafted in the 7th round by the Rangers this year.  

 

There is  hope for the Sixers! (but not the ones in the NBA)

Actually I think the grade was from 2009.  He would have been a sophomore. 

That makes a little more sense. But still a great story.

 

Originally Posted by Golfman25:

CaCo, as I recall your kid is still young.  I would suggest that it is way too early to worry about.  Get him to his Jr. year and take him to a showcase.  If his "grade" warrants it, then focus on where he may be able to play at the next level.  Too much can happen between now and then.  If he hits 90 mph before then (or does some other amazing thing), they your timeline will speed up.   

I agree with this. Who worries about this stuff when your son is 13? There is no way one can understand until HS.

 

Originally Posted by cabbagedad:
Originally Posted by BackstopDad32:

My son is one of those "7s" that will get the opportunity to see if he can get it done at a very solid D1 program. You don't have to spend a fortune but if it is his dream let him work for it until he is aware it is time to be done.  You might be pleasantly surprised at the outcome. 

Backstop, curious for myself, CaCo and others, how old was he when he rated 7, did you pretty much agree with rating and how much did he improve from that time to the time he was recruited to a D1?  Awesome that he did this, BTW!

He attended his only PG showcase right before his sophomore year.  He had pitched some varsity as a freshman, but at this point he was still a primary catcher and secondary pitcher.  He attended the showcase as a primary catcher.

 

I think his rating was fair.  Based on 60 time, pop time, catcher velo, and how he hit in the games I wasn't shocked when it came out.

 

My son is supremely confident and he didn't bat an eye.  At the time I honestly freaked out a bit, but had spent enough time here to sort of refocus.

 

He has always played on the best teams in our area because as you know solid catchers can be hard to come by.  This worked in his favor.  Two months later he was playing with older boys at PG Underclass.  They were trying to get 2015 catcher committed (ultimately went to WV) so put him on the mound and after his first outing the school he is attending asked our coaches about him.  Mind you he topped at 78 at this point.

 

At this time he with some pushing from me (I could see he would never run well enough or hit for enough power to play at D1 level) he committed himself to being the best pitcher he could be.  In the gym non stop and really just took advantage of opportunities given to him.

 

One camp and one summer later he committed to his future school one day before school started his junior year.  He has honestly been living a charmed life since.  Pitched in some very high profile events this summer and pitched well enough to be the MV-Pitcher of a good PG event.   

 

Do I think PG would rate him as higher than a 7 now?  Based on his metrics I don't know. He honestly tops at 85 or so (84 on PG), but his ability to pitch in big games against very good competition as well as commitment he has to a good D1 make me confident they would rate him higher if we wanted to spend the money.  I just never saw the point.  Committed to the school he wants with a coach that believes in him and clearly not a pro prospect out of HS.

 

Last edited by BackstopDad32

My son was rated a 7.5 when he was a freshman in HS. I thought that was totally fair. All through high school I thought he was a bubble D1 kid. 

 

The fact that he did very well in a top conference had a lot more to do with his work ethic, makeup, and ability to get on base - all things that really don't show up very well in a showcase environment. 

 

But if 7.0 means "potential D1 prospect" then that would mean that plenty of 7's do succeed at the D1 level. I don't think that is a misjudgment by PG. 

 

Jerry Ford said once that he was pleased to see my son do better than their expectations. What that meant to me was just what I thought when he was rated  - he was a bubble kid, and Jerry was glad to see that he didn't pop.

 

I think the PG ratings tend to overrate the physically remarkable players, but that doesn't make them unique. I think the entire baseball establishment overvalues imposing physical presence. I had a scout explain it to me:

 

"It's a lot easier to explain a million dollar mistake if he's 6'3"."

We see lots of players and try to give an accurate grade based on what we saw at that event.  Sometimes we see the same player for a week at a tournament and realize he should be a higher grade.  Sometimes people notice this when they look at the rankings and see an 8.5 ranked higher than a 9 or 9.5.

 

Not sure there is any scientific way of evaluating players.  Though with all the new technology we use there are separation points.

 

While I was a young scout, at a tryout I had a old hall of fame scout tell me something I never forgot.  He said you should never think you will ever be so lucky to have seen a player on his best or his worst day.  What he meant was every player you see is probably either better or worse than what you saw.  Looking back I have seen a few players on one of their best days and a few on one of their worst days.  But for the most part every player I've ever watched falls into that middle ground. So in addition to evaluating the player, you need to guess what kind of day he had.  If that sounds unscientific, it's because it is.  That is why scouts keep coming back to see the players they like, until they lose interest.

 

ML Scouts are looking for players that have a chance to play in the Big Leagues.  Colleges are looking for players that can improve their roster.  We simply give our opinion which is generally well respected by both of the above. We know that because of the many relationships we have with both.  However, our opinion sometimes differs from their opinion.  And in the end their opinion is the most important one. 

 

There are a lot of factors involved.  We grade on baseball potential.  We might not like the players parents, or the kids makeup, or the kid might have poor grades.  We don't grade on anything but baseball potential.  However scouts and recruiters need to look at everything.  Often it is those other things that hold a talented player back. We gave him a 9, but nobody wants him.  

 

Last and most important... We have graded kids a 6 who ended up playing in the Major Leagues.  So my answer to anyone that thinks if their son gets a 6 he should hang it up... If one opinion causes you to give up, you should probably give up, because you lack the most important trait. I absolutely love the "prove you wrong" guys.  

 

So we grade players and we are pretty good at it. We are not perfect and we make mistakes at times.  We can create opportunity, but we can't create success or failure.

Full Disclosure:

 

In a previous post I mentioned that, "I know a young man who received a 6.5."  Well, surprise, surprise, that "young man" is my son.  That 6.5, that "Scarlet Number" burned him pretty good, as he was certainly hoping for higher.  As was his dad.  I've told him he could contact PG and have it removed since he was only 14 at the time.  He said, "No.  I want to prove them wrong."

 

Since then that 6.5 grade is the first thing he, or anyone, sees when you pull up his PG profile page.  He has not sent it to any coaches. Feels he can't.  But that 6.5 has motivated him like no other number could. In a strange way, I have come to see his PG showcase experience and the 6.5 he was given as a blessing.  "Things happen for a reason." 

 

JCG's post on Dylan Moore's experience is priceless, and should be the one final note to this thread.  His journey through the PG showcase world says it all.  It ain't over, till it's over.

Last edited by #1 Assistant Coach

And, though I refer to it as a "Scarlet Number" it really is not.  6.5 on the PG scale basically says "college prospect."  I'm paraphrasing but the description is about accurate?  Yeah, he is a college prospect.  I guess the issue son and I had, was that you don't see many sub-7 grades (which brings us back to OP).

 

If I could do it all over again? Yes, I would have waited.  But like I said.  I was a newbie.  First son, only son.  Found HSBBWeb about 6-mos. later.  Now I get it.

Originally Posted by TPM:

Why showcase at 14?

My son will be 14 in 10th grade, not for long in 10th grade, but 10th grade none the less.  My son will be in high school next year.

 

One of the catchers I know that is a 2016 has a PG grade of a 10, in 9th grade he was a 7.5, and in 10th grade he jumped to a 9.5.  I completely understand how these grades are flexible and different any given day.

 

I appreciate everyone's input and I feel I do understand the grading system better.  I will just sit back and see where his baseball leads him.  For being in 8th grade he has already had some great baseball opportunities and discussions with knowledgeable people, I'm just trying to see what they see and was hoping the PG grade would be a magic 8 ball, it won't, and I get that now. I plan on taking him to a PG showcase when he is in 10th grade and I guess we will go from there.  Maybe I will resurrect this thread then.

 

Thank you again to all.

Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:

Why showcase at 14?

My son will be 14 in 10th grade, not for long in 10th grade, but 10th grade none the less.  My son will be in high school next year.

MORE FULL DISCLOSURE:

 

in son's 6.5 write-up, PG scout/reviewer states 3-times, player is "very young."  The scout/reviewer keeps hitting this note: player is "very young" in the beginning of write-up, in middle, and at end.  Which to me generously left the door open for development and the possibility of becoming a better ball player down the road.

 

I think we can agree, yes, 14 is too young to do a PG showcase.  Now, have there been 14s who have received grades much higher?  Must be.  I'm sure there are kids who at 14 have received 8s and 9s, but not most 14s.  As PG scout/writer said, my kid was "very young." 

 

If you're scoring this story at home?  That's an "E-Dad."

Last edited by #1 Assistant Coach
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
 

One of the catchers I know that is a 2016 has a PG grade of a 10, in 9th grade he was a 7.5, and in 10th grade he jumped to a 9.5.  I completely understand how these grades are flexible and different any given day.

 

I would not say that they could be different any given day...

 

I would more say the grades are flexible and could be different at different points in a player's development.  I don't think if you go this weekend and you get a 6, you are going to jump to a 9 next weekend.  I think it's totally possible to go from a 6 to a 9 in a year or two.  If that happens, it would depend on a lot of factors.  Such as physical growth (getting bigger and stronger) and baseball skill improvement (ie. faster 60 time or faster FB velocity).  But, I don't think that is going to happen over night.  It will take some time and development.  Which does happen...  A 6 does not doom a kid.  It gives a snapshot in time.  What happens after that is up to the kid and his family.

Been enjoying the threads and reading about one's personal experiences. Here's another. Son went to PG showcase early on ("young" as another poster said) to see where he stood. Received OK rating but used it as a motivation. 60 was one of the best at the event, though low for son. He knew he had to improve arm strength, and STRENGTHEN his strength (Speed).

Fast forward-- he increased his arm strength 15 mph, and graduated a 6.4 60 runner, since the PG showcase. Knew that speed and grades were his top 2 tools. Coaches that recruited him often talked about a "different set of tools," that they wanted to see in person. In skills sets at showcases, hard to detect that he would use part of a round to hit opposite field, and another part of the round to hit ball hard up the middle, and usually end with long balls to OF. Bunting too is part of his arsenal, which is seen in games, not showcases.

One previous poster spoke of Heart of a player, I'll add instincts. How is a RF anywhere around an overthrow at first from third? Or taking an extra base when fielder's aren't covering a bag? Or stealing second base after 7 throws over to first base? Or inside out swing to RF to move a runner from second to third? Or bunting to third because 3B was miffed that he struck out last inning and his head isn't in it?  Will never know what PG rating is since 9th grade. In the grand scheme of things it didn't matter. What "the number" did for us, was learn what one evaluator's opinion was in a "snapshot of time",(how he stood against others) and motivate a player to improve.

Originally Posted by #1 Assistant Coach:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Originally Posted by TPM:

Why showcase at 14?

My son will be 14 in 10th grade, not for long in 10th grade, but 10th grade none the less.  My son will be in high school next year.

MORE FULL DISCLOSURE:

 

in son's 6.5 write-up, PG scout/reviewer states 3-times, player is "very young."  The scout/reviewer keeps hitting this note: player is "very young" in the beginning of write-up, in middle, and at end.  Which to me generously left the door open for development and the possibility of becoming a better ball player down the road.

 

I think we can agree, yes, 14 is too young to do a PG showcase.  Now, have there been 14s who have received grades much higher?  Must be.  I'm sure there are kids who at 14 have received 8s and 9s, but not most 14s.  As PG scout/writer said, my kid was "very young." 

 

If you're scoring this story at home?  That's an "E-Dad."

I have to think the "young" thing is probably the hardest to figure out.  We played an "elite" team this year.  Skill wise, they where average.  Physical maturity wise, they all where shaving.  Our kids are still peach fuzz.  Given that the PG ratings are happening between 9 and 12th grades, a lot can happen in those few years.  Kids are maturing at different rates.   

Often it is said here that parents just don't know how talented their son really is or isn't. That could be true in some ways, because parents tend to think son is better than he really is. 

 

I think parents know when they have a talented son.  After all, they have seen him more than anyone and they have an idea how he compares against and with that competition.  I think most parents know when they have a son that is capable of playing college baseball. What they don't always know is how he compares to everything that is out there. And what level of college baseball he might best fit in.

 

Sometimes it is very confusing, even for baseball lifers, to accurately evaluate their own son.  For some reason the weaknesses they see in others, they don't see in their son.  Some parents, on the other hand, actually underestimate their son. There is more to it, than just knowing your son has some talent.  Most everyone can see that.  It's more about comparison at this poInt in time.  

 

Is he a top 10%, in the middle, or bottom 10% at this time, out of all the players his age that have some talent.  If he has some talent, he can play college baseball.  if you do the same thing with college baseball programs, it will give you an idea where your son fits best (at this point).  Obviously we all know the top 10% of baseball programs are looking for the top 10% of the talent.  There are more top 10% talent kids than there are spots for them.  The lowest 10% are happy to get the lowest of those that have talent.  Then there is this great big middle ground trying to find the best talent possible that fits their college. Remember there is a big difference in having the ability to play at a certain college and having that college want you.  

 

There really is a lot to think about.  You could wear yourself out trying to figure things out and you would just be wasting your time. The best way to deal with everything is to get out there and compete. Give the decision makers a chance.  First go where they are and if they like you enough you will see them again where you are.

 

Main thing to remember is that someone other than you will make the decision as to how far your son goes in baseball.  So getting other opinions can be very helpful.  It doesn't have to be just PG's opinion either. There are many ways to get a qualified honest opinion.  Just know that it's hard for an individual you know, to look you in the eyes and tell you your son lacks ability.  Also that individual might not know what is really out there as competition.  

 

It's one thing if you live in California, Florida, Texas, or Georgia and other hotbeds with lots of talent.  If your son competes well in those areas, he fits well nationally.  In other parts of the country, you don't have this luxury, you need to find out where you fit.  Then do what so many others have done, improve on where you are. But no matter where you're from, if you have some talent, the more you are seen, the more options you will have. That doesn't mean those will be the options you most want. But more is always better than less when it comes to those options.

Originally Posted by PGStaff:
There really is a lot to think about.  You could wear yourself out trying to figure things out and you would just be wasting your time. The best way to deal with everything is to get out there and compete. Give the decision makers a chance.  First go where they are and if they like you enough you will see them again where you are.

 

 

It's one thing if you live in California, Florida, Texas, or Georgia and other hotbeds with lots of talent.  If your son competes well in those areas, he fits well nationally.

Thank you PG staff, these two bits right there put me, and probably others, at ease since we are in a baseball hotbed and that's probably half of what had me confused.

 

Thank you for the great advice.

 

 

My son attended his first PG Showcase a couples months ago, right before he started his Jr. year in HS.  I think you get what you pay for, an unbiased opinion of a ballplayers current ability and in most cases, projections based on age, frame, maturity, mechanics....etc. 

I recommend attending a PG showcase because it offers a dose of reality for players and their parents. It turns out my son's PG grade actually matches his recruiting interest(or lack thereof) so it was a humbling experience.  I know about 7 or 8 kids with PG grades and there is a direct correlation between their recruitment interest and their grade too. I'm not saying the grade is the reason for the their respective recruiting interest, just saying that it appears PG evaluated the players appropriately in every case.  My takeaway from PG is that you take whatever grade you get, high or low and keep working to get better.  I don't think the grade should define a ballplayer but it should provide some direction or at the minimum, motivation! 

Originally Posted by Ripken Fan:

Been enjoying the threads and reading about one's personal experiences. Here's another. Son went to PG showcase early on ("young" as another poster said) to see where he stood. Received OK rating but used it as a motivation. 60 was one of the best at the event, though low for son. He knew he had to improve arm strength, and STRENGTHEN his strength (Speed).

Fast forward-- he increased his arm strength 15 mph, and graduated a 6.4 60 runner, since the PG showcase. Knew that speed and grades were his top 2 tools. Coaches that recruited him often talked about a "different set of tools," that they wanted to see in person. In skills sets at showcases, hard to detect that he would use part of a round to hit opposite field, and another part of the round to hit ball hard up the middle, and usually end with long balls to OF. Bunting too is part of his arsenal, which is seen in games, not showcases.

One previous poster spoke of Heart of a player, I'll add instincts. How is a RF anywhere around an overthrow at first from third? Or taking an extra base when fielder's aren't covering a bag? Or stealing second base after 7 throws over to first base? Or inside out swing to RF to move a runner from second to third? Or bunting to third because 3B was miffed that he struck out last inning and his head isn't in it?  Will never know what PG rating is since 9th grade. In the grand scheme of things it didn't matter. What "the number" did for us, was learn what one evaluator's opinion was in a "snapshot of time",(how he stood against others) and motivate a player to improve.

Ripken, what time frame did it take for your son to gain the 15mph in throwing velo?  Two years?  What college or level of college did your son eventually go to?  Still playing?

Thank you.

I have just read through the last several post on this topic.  I have to say the post by PG pretty much sums it up.  If you are at the recruitment phase in your son's journey, read that post very carefully and soak in what he is saying.  He has been in this business a long time and has seen thousands and thousands of players.  Most of up parents probably are using hundreds as our reference.  The part about the need of the specific program is also very appropriate.  Your son must have ability first, then he must be able to fill a specific need of a program if you are looking at a specific school.  Sometimes you could have the talent, but they don't have the need.

Originally Posted by Gov:
Originally Posted by Ripken Fan:

Been enjoying the threads and reading about one's personal experiences. Here's another. Son went to PG showcase early on ("young" as another poster said) to see where he stood. Received OK rating but used it as a motivation. 60 was one of the best at the event, though low for son. He knew he had to improve arm strength, and STRENGTHEN his strength (Speed).

Fast forward-- he increased his arm strength 15 mph, and graduated a 6.4 60 runner, since the PG showcase. Knew that speed and grades were his top 2 tools. Coaches that recruited him often talked about a "different set of tools," that they wanted to see in person. In skills sets at showcases, hard to detect that he would use part of a round to hit opposite field, and another part of the round to hit ball hard up the middle, and usually end with long balls to OF. Bunting too is part of his arsenal, which is seen in games, not showcases.

One previous poster spoke of Heart of a player, I'll add instincts. How is a RF anywhere around an overthrow at first from third? Or taking an extra base when fielder's aren't covering a bag? Or stealing second base after 7 throws over to first base? Or inside out swing to RF to move a runner from second to third? Or bunting to third because 3B was miffed that he struck out last inning and his head isn't in it?  Will never know what PG rating is since 9th grade. In the grand scheme of things it didn't matter. What "the number" did for us, was learn what one evaluator's opinion was in a "snapshot of time",(how he stood against others) and motivate a player to improve.

Ripken, what time frame did it take for your son to gain the 15mph in throwing velo?  Two years?  What college or level of college did your son eventually go to?  Still playing?

Thank you.

Two years.(don't know what it is today or during senior year of HS but increase was from winter before Freshman HS baseball to winter before Junior year HS baseball). He is currently a  Freshman (2015 HS grad) playing at a high academic D1.

Originally Posted by younggun:

I have just read through the last several post on this topic.  I have to say the post by PG pretty much sums it up.  If you are at the recruitment phase in your son's journey, read that post very carefully and soak in what he is saying.  He has been in this business a long time and has seen thousands and thousands of players.  Most of up parents probably are using hundreds as our reference.  The part about the need of the specific program is also very appropriate.  Your son must have ability first, then he must be able to fill a specific need of a program if you are looking at a specific school.  Sometimes you could have the talent, but they don't have the need.

+1

How is your son doing??

Last edited by TPM
Hey TPM, thanks for asking. He is a little over 2 weeks post-op. Everything is going well. He is back to workouts (lower half only) but he is itching for time to pass. I can only hope he is following orders and not doing anything too early. He just wants to compete. Hopefully he will be out of his sling in another 3 weeks and released to start rehab.
CaCO3Girl posted:

We are having a debate on another site about PG showcase grades and the following point system was posted, presumably from the PG website, that the grades stand for:


10 -- Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect
9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect
7 -- Potential low round pick, DI prospect or top level Juco, DII
6 -- Possible DI prospect, definite DII or Juco prospect
5 -- Possible DII prospect or mid range Juco prospect
4 -- Possible low level DII or high level DIII prospect
3 -- Possible DIII or low level Juco prospect
2 -- Possible low level DIII prospect
1 -- No prospect at this time

 

I can't recall ever seeing a PG grade of less than I think maybe a 7...has anyone seen a showcase grade below that?  Has anyone seen a player with a recent PG score of an 8 play for a D1? i.e not the showcase score they got when they were in 9th grade, but a recent to graduation PG score of an 8 or 8.5 on a D1 roster?

Here's a player, Keston Hiura, who received a PG Grade of an 8, who was a 1st Round pick in the MLB Draft, and is hitting .382 in his rookie year in the minors

https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353544

3and2Fastball posted:

Here's a player, Keston Hiura, who received a PG Grade of an 8, who was a 1st Round pick in the MLB Draft, and is hitting .382 in his rookie year in the minors

https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353544

Incredible story. Not even a sniff for getting drafted out of high school.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/...-20170215-story.html

Last edited by MidAtlanticDad
3and2Fastball posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:

We are having a debate on another site about PG showcase grades and the following point system was posted, presumably from the PG website, that the grades stand for:


10 -- Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect
9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect
7 -- Potential low round pick, DI prospect or top level Juco, DII
6 -- Possible DI prospect, definite DII or Juco prospect
5 -- Possible DII prospect or mid range Juco prospect
4 -- Possible low level DII or high level DIII prospect
3 -- Possible DIII or low level Juco prospect
2 -- Possible low level DIII prospect
1 -- No prospect at this time

 

I can't recall ever seeing a PG grade of less than I think maybe a 7...has anyone seen a showcase grade below that?  Has anyone seen a player with a recent PG score of an 8 play for a D1? i.e not the showcase score they got when they were in 9th grade, but a recent to graduation PG score of an 8 or 8.5 on a D1 roster?

Here's a player, Keston Hiura, who received a PG Grade of an 8, who was a 1st Round pick in the MLB Draft, and is hitting .382 in his rookie year in the minors

https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353544

Brandon Lowe was a PG rated 8.5 in HS.  He was scheduled to start his 1st game of freshman year at Maryland but tore his ACL at practice before they got on the plane for their opening series at LSU.  He rehabbed and had 2 phenomenal years at Maryland, hitting 3 hole.

He was a 3rd Round pick of the TB Rays and is now one of their top prospects.

3and2Fastball posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:

We are having a debate on another site about PG showcase grades and the following point system was posted, presumably from the PG website, that the grades stand for:


10 -- Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect
9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect
7 -- Potential low round pick, DI prospect or top level Juco, DII
6 -- Possible DI prospect, definite DII or Juco prospect
5 -- Possible DII prospect or mid range Juco prospect
4 -- Possible low level DII or high level DIII prospect
3 -- Possible DIII or low level Juco prospect
2 -- Possible low level DIII prospect
1 -- No prospect at this time

 

I can't recall ever seeing a PG grade of less than I think maybe a 7...has anyone seen a showcase grade below that?  Has anyone seen a player with a recent PG score of an 8 play for a D1? i.e not the showcase score they got when they were in 9th grade, but a recent to graduation PG score of an 8 or 8.5 on a D1 roster?

Here's a player, Keston Hiura, who received a PG Grade of an 8, who was a 1st Round pick in the MLB Draft, and is hitting .382 in his rookie year in the minors

https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353544

Great story, thanks for sharing. And that's 100% true about Valencia's field.

3and2Fastball posted:

I never did find a rating for Troy Tulowitzki, but I do know he ran a 7.25 sixty, was considered "too slow" and went undrafted out of high school

Another Dirtbag, Evan Longoria, was a two-year letterman in high school (i.e., played JV as a sophomore), had zero D1 scholarship offers, went to a JC for a year, then to Long Beach State, where he was drafted in the first round (third overall) after his junior year. He had been a shortstop at the JC, but Long Beach State already had a shortstop named Troy Tulowitzki, so he moved to 3rd base. 6'1" 170 lbs when he graduated high school, and 6'2" 210 lbs when drafted after junior year in college.

CaCO3Girl posted:

We are having a debate on another site about PG showcase grades and the following point system was posted, presumably from the PG website, that the grades stand for:


10 -- Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect
9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect
7 -- Potential low round pick, DI prospect or top level Juco, DII
6 -- Possible DI prospect, definite DII or Juco prospect
5 -- Possible DII prospect or mid range Juco prospect
4 -- Possible low level DII or high level DIII prospect
3 -- Possible DIII or low level Juco prospect
2 -- Possible low level DIII prospect
1 -- No prospect at this time

 

I can't recall ever seeing a PG grade of less than I think maybe a 7...has anyone seen a showcase grade below that?  Has anyone seen a player with a recent PG score of an 8 play for a D1? i.e not the showcase score they got when they were in 9th grade, but a recent to graduation PG score of an 8 or 8.5 on a D1 roster?

 

These number explanations seem kind of wonky to me.  What do y'all think?

Not looking for praise for son here, only sharing this nugget for those whose son's may be in same boat as mine was:

 Yes, I have seen a PG grade of less than 7.  It was my son.   And his Grade was 6.5  It was his freshman year of HS.  He knew, that due to his young age, he could have it omitted from his PG Profile page.   He said, "No leave it.  I'll keep working and go back there and do better."   But he also knew, that any coach or person who looked him up on PG would immediately see PG GRADE: 6.5 front and center next to his name.  Please note:  since he was graded a 6.5 he went on to commit to two different D-1 programs, and had additional D-1 and D-3 offers while that 6.5 was there on his PG Profile page.  Son always felt it was sort of a "scarlet number," but it obviously never was an issue in his recruitment.  Coaches trust their own eyes, period.  A good PG Grade can help, but I don't think a bad one will "kill" one's recruitment.  

Long story short, after he committed to second D-1 this summer, he finally did a second PG showcase and was graded a 9.5

Remember, PG Grades are a snapshot.  They do not define.  They only tell you where you are on that day.  Throughout my son's journey whenever he mused about his level of development, usually believing he was behind his peers (and he was), I always told him, "Relax.  You're right where your supposed to be."

Last edited by #1 Assistant Coach

Concur with #1 Assistant here.... son had PG 8, had offers from half a dozen D1's before committing.  He, I, we, all of us were kind of shocked at the grade.... then I saw son's fielding video.  Please tell me why he was working on a specific back hand move he was being taught the previous Sunday at the Yale Camp???  What was he thinking???  This is showcase, stay athletic, keep your feet moving through the ball, are you out of your mind??  I can laugh now, but sometimes smart kids are really stupid.

I let a few weeks pass, took fresh video of his "normal fielding" and sent it to PG, they kindly reviewed, compared both videos, and said, well "had he been fielding like that it would have been a 8.5 or 9 on his fielding".  "Your son should go to another PG showcase to improve his grade"...  argh...that's when as a parent you get frustrated.  How many showcases are we going to?

Anyway, even though son is committed and his recruiting journey has hopefully come to a close, I have been encouraging him to attend the PG Top Prospect in Oct... a chance to clean the slate, document his progress, and have no regrets.   Not sure he's buying my pitch, and honestly, I think I need to move on.

Lol Gov.  Send me $100 and a video.  You call me and I will rave about your son’s abilities and you can move on and be money way ahead. 

My son had PG grade of 7.  Pitched 30 innings as a freshman for a regional team. Faced the at the time #1 team in the country in hissecond outing out of the pen. 

IMO showcase ratings and rankings are as much marketing tools to get us parents to spend money as anything. Ultimately college coaches respect their own evaluations of players over all, including the opinions of some of the big showcase orgs.  They consider many more facets than can be evaluated in one day in a showcase environment 

Having just seen several of son’s friends and a few teammates leave their D1 school after one year I would say that would not matter at all. 

I say that because kids either go to D2 or D3 or if they want to stay at D1 they almost all go to a juco for year 2.  Many of these transfers are supported/encouraged by their original college coach. That coach will help them or I have seen several go to jucos that recruited them out of HS as well.

  Also a lot of these kids have a body of work from year one. Those results matter too. 

3&2, I would imagine for transfer kids it's more about how they played in college prior to the attempted transfer.  Actual stats from college.

What are theNCAA restrictions for a player considering a transfer, to "work out" for another college team?  Ex: D3 kid trying out for a D1 after a year of play?

Last edited by Gov
Gov posted:

3&2, I would imagine for transfer kids it's more about how they played in college prior to the attempted transfer.  Actual stats from college.

Thanks for your reply.

What about the kids that don't play as freshman or barely play as freshman? (which can be a big reason for transferring down). 

Asking sincerely as I don't know, but I imagine that a 2017 with a documented PG score of "9" and a 6.9 sixty from the summer of 2016 might have more doors open than the 2017 with a PG score of 7 and a 7.5 sixty from the summer of 2014.... No?

3and2Fastball posted:
Gov posted:

3&2, I would imagine for transfer kids it's more about how they played in college prior to the attempted transfer.  Actual stats from college.

Thanks for your reply.

What about the kids that don't play as freshman or barely play as freshman? (which can be a big reason for transferring down). 

Asking sincerely as I don't know, but I imagine that a 2017 with a documented PG score of "9" and a 6.9 sixty from the summer of 2016 might have more doors open than the 2017 with a PG score of 7 and a 7.5 sixty from the summer of 2014.... No?

Good question.  I would concur with you, but I would imagine there'd be some sort of workout to specifically see where the current skills and tools are... A kid with a PG grade of 7 and a 7.5 sixty could have grown, gotten stronger, had a poor day at PG showcase when he got a 7...  

Gov posted:

What are theNCAA restrictions for a player considering a transfer, to "work out" for another college team?  Ex: D3 kid trying out for a D1 after a year of play?

I'm pretty sure that a 4-4 transfer is subject to the rules of the division he is transferring to. So, this information should apply. Permission to contact is required in most cases. You will also find many recommendations for Rick Allen's services in this area on HSBBW.

http://community.hsbaseballweb...al-d1-to-d1-transfer

Last edited by MidAtlanticDad

A 15u teammate of my son was wearing a showcase shirt yesterday and I was just so shocked I yelled out, David, have you been to a PG showcase? He was very polite and said yes ma'am and then he had to run.  I spoke with his mom and she showed me the profile, kid has wicked speed, but everything else is as a 9th grader should be.  What shocked me was that there was NO grade.  All the stats, but no write up or grade.  This was in the end of August, can't imagine whats taking them so long and when it pops up I fear for the kid.  His parents are of the opinion he will just do one every year to keep it up to date, they also paid for the video package.

I think I want to be adopted :- )

I'll also add my observation that most of the college coaches have relationships with other coaches from other divisions.  In other words, say a kid goes to a JUCO and wants to play at a DI school.  That JUCO coach will likely have any number of DI coaches that they work with and make recommendations to.  The DI coaches rely on the trust they have for that JUCO coach and their assessment of a player.  And that JUCO coach is NOT going to recommend a kid to a school when he doesn't think that kid will be a contributor.  It would ruin his reputation.  JUCO coaches will also have contacts with DII, DIII and NAIA coaches and will try to get their kids referred to the appropriate level of program.  

From the other direction, probably every DI coach knows he will have kids that are not going to make it in their program.  They will often have relationships with coaches from other levels to refer the kid to.  

I think these relationships are much more important than what a kid scored at a PG showcase.  

Also keep in mind, if a kid wants to move up from an NCAA DII or DIII team to a DI team, the sit out rule applies.  Going down from DI to DII or DIII, there is no sit out rule.  Nor are there sit out restrictions between NCAA and NAIA or JUCO programs.

 

#1 Assistant Coach posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:

We are having a debate on another site about PG showcase grades and the following point system was posted, presumably from the PG website, that the grades stand for:


10 -- Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect
9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect
7 -- Potential low round pick, DI prospect or top level Juco, DII
6 -- Possible DI prospect, definite DII or Juco prospect
5 -- Possible DII prospect or mid range Juco prospect
4 -- Possible low level DII or high level DIII prospect
3 -- Possible DIII or low level Juco prospect
2 -- Possible low level DIII prospect
1 -- No prospect at this time

 

I can't recall ever seeing a PG grade of less than I think maybe a 7...has anyone seen a showcase grade below that?  Has anyone seen a player with a recent PG score of an 8 play for a D1? i.e not the showcase score they got when they were in 9th grade, but a recent to graduation PG score of an 8 or 8.5 on a D1 roster?

 

These number explanations seem kind of wonky to me.  What do y'all think?

Not looking for praise for son here, only sharing this nugget for those whose son's may be in same boat as mine was:

 Yes, I have seen a PG grade of less than 7.  It was my son.   And his Grade was 6.5  It was his freshman year of HS.  He knew, that due to his young age, he could have it omitted from his PG Profile page.   He said, "No leave it.  I'll keep working and go back there and do better."   But he also knew, that any coach or person who looked him up on PG would immediately see PG GRADE: 6.5 front and center next to his name.  Please note:  since he was graded a 6.5 he went on to commit to two different D-1 programs, and had additional D-1 and D-3 offers while that 6.5 was there on his PG Profile page.  Son always felt it was sort of a "scarlet number," but it obviously never was an issue in his recruitment.  Coaches trust their own eyes, period.  A good PG Grade can help, but I don't think a bad one will "kill" one's recruitment.  

Long story short, after he committed to second D-1 this summer, he finally did a second PG showcase and was graded a 9.5

Remember, PG Grades are a snapshot.  They do not define.  They only tell you where you are on that day.  Throughout my son's journey whenever he mused about his level of development, usually believing he was behind his peers (and he was), I always told him, "Relax.  You're right where your supposed to be."

I always thought PG overrated a lot of players until I really noticed and understood two words, "potential" and "possible." It's easy to want to eliminate these words in your mind and replace with "is." It goes back to "hear what the coach is really saying, not want you want to hear." I saw a lot of "potential" 8's turn out to be 3-5's.

Last edited by RJM

I've seen it thrown out here many times that anyone can find a spot on a college baseball teams if they are willing to play anywhere just to say they played college baseball. Could a kid who is PG rated as a 2 realistically find a spot on a college roster?

10 -- Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect
9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect
7 -- Potential low round pick, DI prospect or top level Juco, DII
6 -- Possible DI prospect, definite DII or Juco prospect
5 -- Possible DII prospect or mid range Juco prospect
4 -- Possible low level DII or high level DIII prospect
3 -- Possible DIII or low level Juco prospect
2 -- Possible low level DIII prospect
1 -- No prospect at this time

Ja'Crispy posted:

I've seen it thrown out here many times that anyone can find a spot on a college baseball teams if they are willing to play anywhere just to say they played college baseball. Could a kid who is PG rated as a 2 realistically find a spot on a college roster?

10 -- Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect
9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect
7 -- Potential low round pick, DI prospect or top level Juco, DII
6 -- Possible DI prospect, definite DII or Juco prospect
5 -- Possible DII prospect or mid range Juco prospect
4 -- Possible low level DII or high level DIII prospect
3 -- Possible DIII or low level Juco prospect
2 -- Possible low level DIII prospect
1 -- No prospect at this time

You need to appreciate the scale as what it is, not what we form in our mind it to be.

Logically, when you hear of a 1-10 scale, you assume that 5 is the average and anything above or below are just that, above or below average.

So if you assume that 5.6% of HS baseball senior players go on to play college ball, and that 5.6% are above average, then the numbers make sense, since they are saying that a grade 2 of above has that POSSIBILITY.  While many of the kids attending a PG showcase won't go on to play HS ball, many of the attendees do, likely a MUCH higher percentage than 5.6%, so you have to consider the sample size is very skewed.

Much like the military where the annual rating system is unbelievably skewed to the extent that receiving a 97% appraisal (which you'd think would be rocking) is essentially a kiss of death and code for being an absolute dirt bag.

So by PG definition, scoring a 2 or above means they see the possibility of you playing college ball.  Not that you'll play 2 or 4 years, be a starter, etc., etc., but only that you'll play college ball, and a grade of 1 indicating that you have no chance of playing college ball at that time.  My guess is that all of us, by nature, would assume a grade of 3 or less would indicate that the kid is endangering himself by even being on the field, but by their scale, that's not the case.

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