High School Pitching Velocity

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I agree mid 80's is too high for "average". But I think high 70's is too low.

Though my experience is limited to mostly AAA and decent private schools around here. Maybe in smaller school conferences or in other areas where they play less (cold climes?) you see velocity develop less, or less depth on rosters.

I'll tell you one thing, you go out and face any team in our region with a 78 mph fastball, you'd better have some nasty lefty movement or something else to offer. Otherwise your ERA will get into the 10+ range.

Our high school team has 6 pitchers who all throw north of 80, and 4 other guys who could, but who never get to pitch because they're too far down the depth chart.

Midlo,

Unless things have change dramatically in the last 2 years, and judging from what I saw this fall, 80mph for HS pitches is definitely above average.

Don’t take your experience and try to apply it across the board in every school across the country. It won’t work!

I think your estimate of what would happen in your region to someone who only had a 78MPH FB is a bit overblown, and I’m gonna guess that unless a P had something more than an 87MPH FB, he’d be in even more danger of getting whiplash.

What’s the easiest ball there is to hit? I think consensus would agree it was a FB with no movement, thrown over and over. So its not just the guys you consider ****** because they throw slow who need movement or something else to offer. Velocity alone has never been the answer, and never will.

Just for the sake of discussion, what makes you think any pitcher at any level would end up with an ERA over 10, except in a few rare cases where some kind of freaky inning took place, or the total innings were very few, no matter how slow they threw?

Let’s assume you put a normal HS defense on the field, then had the P throw noting but BP FBs as close to right down the middle as possible, and did that for 7 innings. How many runs, let alone earned runs, do you think would score if the defense were really playing like it was an important game, and the offense didn’t get to just sit there and take swing after swing like in a normal BP. IOW, the hitters had to run on balls put in play, and the defense got to make plays, and the entire lineup from top to bottom had to bat.

Do you really believe nearly every ball hit is going to be hit where a glove can’t get it? If you believe that, the next time you watch BP at any level, try to imaging a normal defense out there, making normal plays. And that’s with the hitters getting their 5 or 10 swings with the P doing his best to let them hit the ball!

I’m sure you’re right to some degree, but you’re letting dogma cloud your judgment.

The only comment I can make about your team having 10 kids who can pitch at velocities of 80+ is, it’s the most amazing pitching staff I’ve ever heard about for a HS team. Shoot, at last year’s Regionals, Super Regionals, and CWS, there was at least a couple of P’s on every team who didn’t cruise in the 80’s, and quite a few of them got to pitch on TV and did pretty well.

Being able to throw 1 or 2 pitches out of 50 at 80+ is not the same thing as averaging 80+.

Of course I’ve been away from HS ball for a few years now and am just coming back to it, so I may well be wrong. But having had to occasionally gun pitchers for my son’s JUCO team for 2 seasons, I can tell you that I never saw a game go by that at least 1 P on either team didn’t average well below 80 with his FB.

Hey, let's all give Midlo a break. He corrected himself, that's good enough for me.

It really doesn't matter if 78 or 80 or 82 is average, because none of those numbers will get you to Division I, if that's your goal.

I think a more interesting question is this: Name the pitchers in your H.S. league you know who throw 85+. If we start naming names, then we're getting to the nuts and bolts of it.

I'll start.. this is in Spokane.

Andrew Kittredge 88
Paul Smith 88
Mark Purser 87-88
Nic Fowler 86
Alex Banderas 86
Max Manix 85
My Kid 85
Danny Jordan 85
Jacob Partridge 85
Billy Moon 85
Maybe one other I'm forgetting

That's 11 pitchers in a league with about 100 pitchers. Roughly 10%.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
That's 11 pitchers in a league with about 100 pitchers. Roughly 10%.

Wa is a tremendous baseball state, and I wouldn’t be a bit surprised to see it soon rivaling some of the sun belt states, if it doesn’t already.

10% is probably much closer to what I’m used to than what I’m hearing from a lot of folks, but even that sounds a tad high for guys who can really throw 85+. I’m guessin’ something more like 6-7%.

But one thing’s for sure, even though I have a gun that was given to me by our local police department, I won’t be spendin’ any time gunnin’ HS boys. If the scouts want to do that, its easy enough to find out. And usually there’s some obnoxious dad runnin’ around with one who just can’t wait to let everyone know his little fireballer’s hittin’ those big numbers. ;-)

I’ve already told our coach that when they put up the new scoreboard, I’ll donate the gun to the program, and get someone to mount it up on the backstop. Then all he has to do is get power to it and pick up a display unit that can be mounted on the scoreboard.

That’s the only way I wouldn’t mind seeing gun numbers. That way everyone can oooh and ahhh at the kids who really can put up the numbers, but more importantly, I think it would really be an eye opener to anyone who watched one of the games to see literally every pitch gunned.

And the best part is, after only a few games, it would become old hat to the players and maybe help them ignore the darn thing when those iggerint daddiess pull out those stupid guns!

quote:

The only comment I can make about your team having 10 kids who can pitch at velocities of 80+ is, it’s the most amazing pitching staff I’ve ever heard about for a HS team. Shoot, at last year’s Regionals, Super Regionals, and CWS, there was at least a couple of P’s on every team who didn’t cruise in the 80’s, and quite a few of them got to pitch on TV and did pretty well.

Scorekeeper,

Those type of high school pitching staffs are not all that unusual. Not to the point of being the most amazing ever.

There have been many high school teams just in the past few years with 2, even 3 pitchers throwing 90 or better. There are several high school teams that have nearly, if not every pitcher who can throw Low 80s or better. So when you say 10 kids with 80+ velocity would be the most amazing HS pitching staff you’ve ever seen, it makes me wonder if you’ve seen much high level baseball. There have been high school pitching staffs in Iowa without anyone throwing less than low 80s. BTW, Iowa is not a hotbed for baseball talent.

Last year there was a high school team in Alabama with two mid 90 pitchers and another who threw 90 and several others who were 85-89. This year there is a team in New Jersey with one 94-98, one 91-93, another 90, and everyone else easily above 85. This is not all that impossible in areas like Houston, Miami, Atlanta, etc. Long Beach has one of these HS as well. Granted this is rare, but they all can’t be the best pitching staff ever!

Also, who were the couple pitchers on each college world series team who threw in the 70s? That would be pitchers for Oregon State, North Carolina, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Cal State Fullerton, Miami, Rice and Georgia. Are you saying there were at least 16 pitchers or more in last year’s college world series who had average fastballs in the 70s? Sorry, but someone will have to prove that before I would believe it.

Anyway, I still can’t figure out what would be important about the average velocity of a high school pitcher. That is, even if we did have a way of knowing that. The only thing I’m fairly sure of is that average would be much different from one team and one league or one part of the country than others.

We all know there are a lot of high school pitchers who throw in the 70s, but there are thousands of 80+ pitchers and hundreds 90 mph guys in high school also. I just don’t see hardly any in the 60s let alone 50s. 50s (are we kidding) ? That is too slow for good BP. I might go with more below 80 than above 80 even, but 80-83 mph is at least very common (though maybe not really the average) in my estimation. I am talking about the varsity level.

The top college programs, have very few pitchers who throw below mid 80s and most all are above that velocity. If it were any other way they would all be out recruiting some pitchers who don’t throw 80 mph. Oregon State signed several pitchers during the early signing period. The ones we are familiar with all throw easily in the 90+ range.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Those type of high school pitching staffs are not all that unusual. Not to the point of being the most amazing ever.

Perhaps you’re correct, and there are lots of HS teams all over the country with 10 players who can all cruise at 80+. But again, what I said was: it’s the most amazing pitching staff I’ve ever heard about for a HS team.

Admittedly, my experience is limited in that I’ve only seen perhaps 100 HS teams, and they’ve been limited mostly to NorCal, some to SoCal, and a few from Nv.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
There have been many high school teams just in the past few years with 2, even 3 pitchers throwing 90 or better. There are several high school teams that have nearly, if not every pitcher who can throw Low 80s or better. So when you say 10 kids with 80+ velocity would be the most amazing HS pitching staff you’ve ever seen, it makes me wonder if you’ve seen much high level baseball. There have been high school pitching staffs in Iowa without anyone throwing less than low 80s. BTW, Iowa is not a hotbed for baseball talent.

I think I said I’ve been away from HS ball for at least 2 seasons, and more like 3, so what you say may well be true. But its not in my experience.

When we went to the 2003 Jr Oly tournament in 2002, I got to see the logs of the P’s velocities, and there were only 2 90+ cruisers, and I think 14 85+ kids. Those aren’t my numbers, they’re the numbers I saw their workers had gathered. In 2003 the numbers were better, but not by much.

Now maybe they hid the real facts from me, or all the 90+ kids were somewhere else, but that sure seemed like a pretty low number for 70+ teams that were supposed to have some of the best talent in the entire west.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:Last year there was a high school team in Alabama with two mid 90 pitchers and another who threw 90 and several others who were 85-89. This year there is a team in New Jersey with one 94-98, one 91-93, another 90, and everyone else easily above 85. This is not all that impossible in areas like Houston, Miami, Atlanta, etc. Long Beach has one of these HS as well. Granted this is rare, but they all can’t be the best pitching staff ever!

Well, you can keep beating up on me if you like, but I still maintain that I haven’t seen ‘em. I’m not saying they aren’t around, only that I haven’t seen them, and you yourself say they’re rare.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:Also, who were the couple pitchers on each college world series team who threw in the 70s? That would be pitchers for Oregon State, North Carolina, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Cal State Fullerton, Miami, Rice and Georgia. Are you saying there were at least 16 pitchers or more in last year’s college world series who had average fastballs in the 70s? Sorry, but someone will have to prove that before I would believe it.

PGStaffer, you’re overacting just a bit here, and not paying attention to what was written.

at last year’s Regionals, Super Regionals, and CWS, there was at least a couple of P’s on every team who didn’t cruise in the 80’s, and quite a few of them got to pitch on TV and did pretty well.

There were a heck of a lot of teams in the Regionals, Super Regionals, and CWS. That’s quite different than the CWS!

But even so, I’m still guessing there is at least 1 P on nearly every college team that doesn’t throw his average FB 80+, and it might me more common than you believe. Unless and until someone guns every pitch from every pitcher at every school, all we can do is continue to state opinions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:Anyway, I still can’t figure out what would be important about the average velocity of a high school pitcher. That is, even if we did have a way of knowing that. The only thing I’m fairly sure of is that average would be much different from one team and one league or one part of the country than others. [QUOTE]

On that we agree 100%!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:We all know there are a lot of high school pitchers who throw in the 70s, but there are thousands of 80+ pitchers and hundreds 90 mph guys in high school also. I just don’t see hardly any in the 60s let alone 50s. 50s (are we kidding) ? That is too slow for good BP. I might go with more below 80 than above 80 even, but 80-83 mph is at least very common (though maybe not really the average) in my estimation. I am talking about the varsity level. [QUOTE]

You made a couple of very good points, the most important to me being that people need to make sure they differentiate between the different levels in HS. I have to admit that when I say HS, I include every kid on a HS team. When I mean varsity, or any of the groups separately, I’ll designate it with a Fr, JV, or V. So, probably much of our disagreement is that we aren’t both talking about the same thing. ;-)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:The top college programs, have very few pitchers who throw below mid 80s and most all are above that velocity. If it were any other way they would all be out recruiting some pitchers who don’t throw 80 mph. Oregon State signed several pitchers during the early signing period. The ones we are familiar with all throw easily in the 90+ range. [QUOTE]

Here again, you’re allowing yourself to slip away from colleges, and are talking about only the best. That’s ok as long as you make sure everyone knows what you’re talking about, but I guarantee you that not every college team has an 85 cruiser on it, let alone 3 or 4 90+ cruisers.

That’s the funny thing about averages. When one talks about the average HS pitcher’s FB, he’s talking about every HS P in the world, then the average of every FB they throw, not just the max for each. And average is a far different thing than median, and mode is different than either of them.

Perhaps you can answer one of my personal age old questions. Assuming there are hundreds of HS Ps who throw 90+, that would mean at least hundreds more are in the pros somewhere. Since there are only 30 ML teams and at most they carry 14 P’s, that means at most it would only take 420 P’s to fill every ML pitching roster.

If velocity is truly such a valuable commodity, why is there even 1 P who doesn’t consistently throw at 90+, and with the tremendous numbers available, why isn’t every ML P cruising at 95+?

You don’t have to ask. I really do understand that the main reason its so valuable is because it’s the only truly objective measurement of a P we have. ;-)

quote:

Well, you can keep beating up on me if you like

Definitely not my intent. Sorry you feel that way. I will stop doing that!

quote:

PGStaffer, you’re overacting just a bit here, and not paying attention to what was written.

I try very hard to pay attention to what people write. Sorry if I didn't comprehend, it wouldn't be the first time. As far as over reacting, that would be your opinion. I don't really care enough to over react! I'm just a stickler for accuracy!

Scorekeeper, I really do apologize, if I somehow offended you. Everyone's opinions are welcome, including mine, even if they are incorrect.

By the way, please call me by my correct name! It's PGStaff not PGStaffer. Just attempting a little humor! Not very good at it! Call me anything you want!

I think the thread was started by somebody with a son about to start high school who was trying to get an idea of where they stood. For some folks average high school velocity may not be important, but for someone aproaching that level it may seem important to get an idea of where they stand and what their chances are.
I have to admit that I found it interesting as I have a son who just turned 13 and loves to pitch. I've seen quite a bit of HS baseball since I've been through it with one son and hopefully will get to experience it again.
My experience has been more like what Scorekeeper described but I understand that PGStaff has had the opportunity to see the very best. I've heard of quite a few HS kids in the 90's, and I believe they exist, the ones I've seen just weren't pitching that fast when I was watching. I appreciate PG's input because he's seen some of the very best and it gives me an idea of what's out there and how much work we've got to do to compete.

quote:

Call me anything you want!

Jerry:

Does this mean I can call you the "Godfather" like as in the Connie Mack personna of modern day baseball?

Peace Shep

Most of the kids that reportly hit "90" do so. ...in their car driving down Interstate 55 when they are late for a ball game. I've heard MORE TIMES THAN I CARE TO RELATE, "well, today he's having an off day." Very good high school pitchers in our area can hit mid 80s. Yes, we have a couple that can hit "90" once in a while. However, when someone tells me a kid is throwing such and such, I instantly take 5 mph off of that statement. I'm right more times than I'm wrong. BTW, I consider our area to be a baseball hotbed and typically one area team will make it to state from our very close area in a 2 class system. JMHO!

I am glad to see these estimates on age and speed. My son, a HS Senior, will be 18 in a couple of months. He tops out at 81. He lives in a County with a population of about 25,000...not 3.4 million like the City of Houston, TX has. Heck, Houston has about 800,000 more people than the entire STATE of Mississippi. So when someone (no offense) says that there are a some kids throwing 90 in a "city", it doesn't mean much to me, comparitively.

But my son's 81 MPH also includes very good control with all 4 of his pitches, and good movement on them all. He's a good pitcher. (Too bad he's not lefthanded.)

Would he be better if he was throwing 85?...or 90? Probably get more strikeouts.

OR, would he be better if his infielders could catch a ground ball more often than they do?...or throw it straight? DEFINITELY.

jaxnbullgod, I am very much like your son. All I've got to say is if he's got the command of all pitches, and you're realistic. I'm sure there's a place for him.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Definitely not my intent. Sorry you feel that way. I will stop doing that!

No need to apologize, I wasn’t offended, at all. I just got the feeling that you felt I was attacking something or someone, and I assure you, all I do in these venues is try to keep thing on a casual, discussion basis, not adversarial.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I try very hard to pay attention to what people write. Sorry if I didn't comprehend, it wouldn't be the first time. As far as over reacting, that would be your opinion. I don't really care enough to over react! I'm just a stickler for accuracy!

Absolutely no problem here! I realize my position is farther left than most, and that does often cause confusion.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Scorekeeper, I really do apologize, if I somehow offended you. Everyone's opinions are welcome, including mine, even if they are incorrect.

Like I said, no need to apologize at all because the chances of offending me are pretty slim. ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
By the way, please call me by my correct name! It's PGStaff not PGStaffer. Just attempting a little humor! Not very good at it! Call me anything you want!

My bad. I usually look back to make sure I at least get names and quotes correct.

I truly wish there were a way to preview these posts before the go in. It wouldn’t be so bad, but I don’t see an edit capability either.

S’all OK. We can certainly agree to be friendly enemies on this subject, because you’re right, it really isn’t all that important.

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
I think the thread was started by somebody with a son about to start high school who was trying to get an idea of where they stood. For some folks average high school velocity may not be important, but for someone aproaching that level it may seem important to get an idea of where they stand and what their chances are.

I have to admit that I found it interesting as I have a son who just turned 13 and loves to pitch. I've seen quite a bit of HS baseball since I've been through it with one son and hopefully will get to experience it again.

My experience has been more like what Scorekeeper described but I understand that PGStaff has had the opportunity to see the very best. I've heard of quite a few HS kids in the 90's, and I believe they exist, the ones I've seen just weren't pitching that fast when I was watching. I appreciate PG's input because he's seen some of the very best and it gives me an idea of what's out there and how much work we've got to do to compete.

I can sure understand how people want to be able to have a measuring tool, and like I’ve said, the gun is really the only objective tool available. In that sense, I can understand it, but IMHO its really meaningless.

I gues some of my sensitivity to this subject comes from the incessant beat being pounded out by parents of players less than, say 16. I read about or hear this same velocity/radar gun/ I’m only curious thing at least 50 times a year for the pre shaving crowd, and it drives me crazy! Sometimes I let it spill over into my dealings with the more mature groups.

But I honestly don’t get why people feel this deep need to measure their children, There’s really not much that can be done, other than to spend more money on competent instruction, and if that’s already happening, all that can come of it is angst.

Good luck to your son. I envy you and him! If you were anything at all like my son and I were, we made so many mistakes and bashed our heads into so many brick walls, it would be a blessing to have another go at the whole thing.

I was discussing this whole thing with my cousin this afternoon. We’re the same age, but he lives in northern Ohio, while I now reside in northern Ca. He can’t even imagine people getting so excited about knowing what their kid’s velocity is. He has a HS school about a long par 4 from his back door, and he’s often taken advantage of that by watching free games for the last 30 years.

In doing that, he says its very seldom he’s ever seen a radar gun, so it just o happens he’s in one of those areas where its not important. Just west of us here, about 50 miles, is De La Salle HS. Now that place is really the complete opposite. A private school with a history of being nationally ranked in at least one sport every year, is a different nut.

We knew a boy that went there who used to play with my son on a national tournament team. He was a true 90+ cruiser at 15, but didn’t make the V roster until he was a Jr. Different place, different things going on.

But to me the most important thing to take away from this whole mess is, its extremely important to keep these kids playing as long as possible, to try to get them as close to maturity as can be done.

For some that means taking alternate routes after HS, such as JUCO, NAIA, DII, III, or IV schools. but there are so many “baseball snobs out there its unbelievable! Of course everyone wants their kid to get a full ship to a high profile BB school like Az St, Rice, or whatever, and then be a starter as a Fr, but the chances of that happening are next to zero!

Sometimes its just better from a maturity standpoint for kids to maybe stay at home and go the JUCO route. Sometimes its much better to go to an NAIA school to get to play and get the core requirements out of the way so the transition to a big school is easier.

It just makes me mad when people poo poo those other options, and what they don’t realize is, the kids hear that and often feel like failures if they don’t get drafted or get that’ship.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Most of the kids that reportly hit "90" do so. ...in their car driving down Interstate 55 when they are late for a ball game. I've heard MORE TIMES THAN I CARE TO RELATE, "well, today he's having an off day." Very good high school pitchers in our area can hit mid 80s. Yes, we have a couple that can hit "90" once in a while. However, when someone tells me a kid is throwing such and such, I instantly take 5 mph off of that statement. I'm right more times than I'm wrong. BTW, I consider our area to be a baseball hotbed and typically one area team will make it to state from our very close area in a 2 class system. JMHO!

Now that’s much more like what I hear when I sit down and talk to scouts. Not birddogs, scouts.

Scorekeeper, It is angels, not angles.

I just assumed, from what I've seen, that we had a "no correcting the spelling" rule here! If you start down that road, you're going to have to make 250 posts/day just to do that!

Shep, please NO to "Godfather"

I would be very far down the list of those deserving that title! In fact, I wouldn't even be on the list!

I think all this discussion is interesting. Its just that the average velocity of high school pitchers is an unknown! And even if it were common knowledge, I fail to understand the value of knowing.

There are very good "pitchers" who can be successful throwing in the 70s in high school. I have even seen small college pitchers throwing in the 70s. Now I don't see as many DI games as I'd like, but I follow the recruiting classes very closely. I just don't see hardly any pitchers who throw in the 70s being recruited by DI schools, let alone the top DI schools. I don't see any pitchers in the 70s getting drafted, no matter how good a "pitcher" they might be. If anyone has more than one or two examples of exceptions to that rule, please post them.

So, to any individual pitcher out there... What will knowing the nationwide average high school pitching velocity tell you that might be helpful?

Concentrate on learning how to pitch and how to get better, including velocity. Afterall, the average high school pitcher is done pitching when he graduates from high school! Even many above average are done after high school!

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Scorekeeper, It is angels, not angles.

Have to remember, SK is from California. Where Los Angles is...

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Concentrate on learning how to pitch and how to get better, including velocity. Afterall, the average high school pitcher is done pitching when he graduates from high school! Even many above average are done after high school!

Just to re-emphasize:
Keep the good grades up. Get stronger, grow bigger, improve mechanics. Solidify the mental toughness, work on pitching smarts. And what will happen will happen.


I will admit to having much more interest recently in Texan Son's speed than ever before. [When he was young, neither his pitching coach nor I ever emphasized velocity.] Why the new interest? Because - right or wrong - almost all college coaches use the mph's as an initial screening criteria. If a pitcher is over the velocity cutoff point, then they start looking at the other characteristics (e.g., mental toughness, command, movement, etc.).

So as Texan Son begins to investigate college programs, knowing his velocity will help him focus on the programs that are the most likely to have an interest in him.

What is Texan Son doing in the meantime, though? Working hard to make good grades, get stronger, improve mechanics, solidify mental toughness, increase pitching smarts. And what will happen will happen. This summer the gun will read what it reads. But no matter what digits that appear on that LCD display, he will have worked his hardest and done his absolute best. And that is why I am proud of him, regardless of what the gun may say.

I agree that far too much attention is paid to pitching velocity in young pitchers but I can understand why, because when you go to a showcase the first thing out of the bag is the radar gun.

The day that a sheet of plywood with holes just big enough for a baseball cut in it for targets is propped up 60 feet 6 inches away from the pitching rubber and the player who moves on to the next level is the kid who hits the most targets in sequence regardless of velocity, is the day we stop talking about how fast a 17 year old can throw a baseball.

JMO. I hope everyone is having a good one.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Scorekeeper, It is angels, not angles.

Thank you!

I think (for the most part) you guys are all correct when saying too much importance is placed on the gun reading. However, it really is important to some degree. I don’t think the best scouts and recruiters place too much importance on velocity. I think they place about the right importance on it. Personally, I think parents place more importance on it than scouts. Scouts will often like the guy who throws 89 better than the guy throwing 92. The parents of the boy throwing 92 might not understand why. The parents of the boy throwing 75 will argue the gun is over rated. We all have a natural tendency to adjust our thinking to our own situation. I know, because I’ve also been guilty of that.

The only point I’m trying to make is… Regarding the topic at hand…. Why would anyone care what the average high school velocity is, even if there was a way to accurately determine that? It’s absolutely meaningless to any young pitcher IMO. Furthermore, if the average velocity was, lets say, 73 mph… What does that tell you? If you are a junior or senior throwing 73 mph, I do not think you should be spending any money going to showcases as a pitcher. Not if your purpose for going is to get an offer from a major college. It just isn’t going to happen in nearly every case. I did see a knuckle baller get an offer once, but his fastball was 77-81.

If someone wants to try an experiment… Call any DI college in the country… Tell them your son is a great pitcher with command and good movement on all his pitches and he has great HS stats, but he throws his fastball in the 70s.

Then after talking to that recruiter, set by the phone and wait for him to call back. Let us all know how long it takes!

I think it’s important that parents and young players get good information. I think it’s important that a high school kid throwing in the 70s understands how the system works. Then they can strive to do whatever they can to have a realistic chance.

Velocity is far from the only thing that counts, but it is one thing that does count! And you don't need a radar gun to tell the huge difference between 90 and 80 and 70. The radar gun only stamps a number on it! If someone is a good pitcher who doesn't throw hard, who cares about the radar gun? Just enjoy what you have.

Lastly... Someone mentioned the average speed as being the easiest to hit. I do believe that it can be more effective throwing far below average than average. Far above average is a lot better though.

Don't know how that happened, but I posted it twice.

PGStaff,

Excellent advice, but I still believe it would be much better directed at the parents, rather than the players.

I’ve found that players seldom worry about the actual velocity number as much as people think they do. Like hitters evaluating themselves against their competition and having a very good idea how they compare, pitchers pretty much have that ability too. But those not on the field actually playing the game have a much more difficult time doing that, and generally, parents haven’t got any clue at all.

But a good as that advice is, its difficult to get people to believe it when there’s such a whoopdeedoo about velocity. We’re beat on by the message from the time the kids throw that 1st pitch in kid pitch ball. Even on these bulletin boards where supposedly the brightest of fans/coaches/parent/players supposedly exchange ideas, the velocity message beats on us every day.

Here’s part of a post made on another board.

Help on making cuts please
I am the asst. coach of my MS baseball team and I need help on the 10 or so pitchers. Only two are already in, a short skinny pitcher that threw 68 MPH sidearm, and a fat (think Engleberg in bad news bears) outfielder/pitcher who threw 82 MPH.

After some discussion, here’s a subsequent post the same guy made.

One of those man children

He is really huge, like 5' 9'' and 225 pounds. I doubt he'll grow anymore... but who doesn't want an eighth grader who can throw 82???

This guy’s typical! He sees a fat kid he doubts will grow any more as someone not only he wants as a P, but believes every other coach in the world would want also, just because he throws hard.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
…
If you are a junior or senior throwing 73 mph, I do not think you should be spending any money going to showcases as a pitcher. Not if your purpose for going is to get an offer from a major college. It just isn’t going to happen in nearly every case. I did see a knuckle baller get an offer once, but his fastball was 77-81.

If someone wants to try an experiment… Call any DI college in the country… Tell them your son is a great pitcher with command and good movement on all his pitches and he has great HS stats, but he throws his fastball in the 70s.

Then after talking to that recruiter, set by the phone and wait for him to call back. Let us all know how long it takes!

I think it’s important that parents and young players get good information. I think it’s important that a high school kid throwing in the 70s understands how the system works. Then they can strive to do whatever they can to have a realistic chance.

Velocity is far from the only thing that counts, but it is one thing that does count!

Let me start with saying I’m not disagreeing with you at all.

Having said that, IMHO the strongest messages you send with statements like those are, D1 is the only truly worthwhile college ball, and if you don’t pay someone to go to showcases you’ll never have a chance to play in one of those programs.

I think it’s a shame that things have gotten to the point where there’s so much baseball snobbery, and I find it tragic that having the money to be able to afford going all over the place to the showcases makes such a huge difference in whether or not players get to compete on an equal basis.

Yes, a lot depends on one’s perspective, but I don’t think anyone can deny that $$$$$$$$$ play far too important a role in the whole thing.

Maybe the fat kid will lose 40 lbs and end up throwing 90!

Why would a coach go on a message board to ask who he should choose to cut? Not much of a coach in my book, what do you think?

Velocity not the radar reading has always been thought of as a good attribute, even before the gun was invented. I'm not very familiar with the very youngest of age groups, but are there people using radar guns at those games?

If so, I can see a bit clearer what people are talking about here.

I disagree with your statement about "parents haven't got any clue at all." I've seen many parents who have much better than a clue. I'm sure you didn't mean "all" parents. The comment I made earlier about parents should also be corrected to not include all parents, all the time. But I've actually seen very good baseball people, even scouts and college coaches, who can not see their son in the same unbias way they see others.

Anyway, it's been fun talking about this stuff, even if we did get a bit off the subject at times.

quote:

Let me start with saying I’m not disagreeing with you at all.

Having said that, IMHO the strongest messages you send with statements like those are, D1 is the only truly worthwhile college ball, and if you don’t pay someone to go to showcases you’ll never have a chance to play in one of those programs.

I think it’s a shame that things have gotten to the point where there’s so much baseball snobbery, and I find it tragic that having the money to be able to afford going all over the place to the showcases makes such a huge difference in whether or not players get to compete on an equal basis.

Yes, a lot depends on one’s perspective, but I don’t think anyone can deny that $$$$$$$$$ play far too important a role in the whole thing.

Scorekeeper,

I'm sure you haven't been around here long enough to determine the messages I send.

You are assuming some things that couldn't be further from the truth. Now I'm starting to think one of two things.

1 - You do not know much about me or what my beliefs are. (Which I hope is the case)

2 - You have some other reason for these assumptions.

If you check back far enough, you will find just the exact opposite message coming from me. Many many times! I spent many years as a small college coach.

And It's hard to understand how telling someone NOT to waste money on showcases is making $$$$$$$$$$$ far too important of a role.
Here is exactly what I said

quote:

If you are a junior or senior throwing 73 mph, I do not think you should be spending any money going to showcases as a pitcher. Not if your purpose for going is to get an offer from a major college. It just isn’t going to happen in nearly every case.

How you got what you did out of that, I don't know!

Was just kidding with you Jerry, but you don't give yourself enough credit, somebody has to do it for you.

You have made huge contributions to the ressurrection of baseball. More than you know.

peace shep

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Maybe the fat kid will lose 40 lbs and end up throwing 90!

Why would a coach go on a message board to ask who he should choose to cut? Not much of a coach in my book, what do you think?

I agree, but you’ve gotta be careful when you tell that to some people, and you’ve gotta understand that when people are talking about different levels pf play, its inevitable there’ll be different levels of coaching too.

I can assure you that fellow took more shots than he had people agreeing with him.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Velocity not the radar reading has always been thought of as a good attribute, even before the gun was invented. I'm not very familiar with the very youngest of age groups, but are there people using radar guns at those games?

If so, I can see a bit clearer what people are talking about here.

I assure you that there are guns being used at games starting with the very lowest of kid pitch leagues! Just this week I’ve been in “discussions” where people(dads) insist that using radar on kids is the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Here’s part of a post that should give you just a teeny bit of an idea what’s going on way below where we’re talking about.

I think radar has been a great tool for measuring my 12 yo son's progress from his early 9 yo seat-of-the-pants pitching mechanics up through his current and more highly refined mechanics.

Granted that’s only a very small part of the thread, but I think you can easily see that using radar on kids is not only common, many people encourage it!

One of the reasons I’m finding this particular board so stimulating is, it very seldom deals with the ignorance found so often in the lower levels. Don’t get me wrong, those boards are great because they really do help disseminate a lot of much needed information, but its really difficult for me, having a son who’s been away from that level for at least 8 years to still have to deal with people arguing about some of the things they get their undies in a bunch about.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:I disagree with your statement about "parents haven't got any clue at all." I've seen many parents who have much better than a clue. I'm sure you didn't mean "all" parents. The comment I made earlier about parents should also be corrected to not include all parents, all the time. But I've actually seen very good baseball people, even scouts and college coaches, who can not see their son in the same unbias way they see others.

You are correct. I definitely didn’t mean “ALL” parents. But, as you can probably guess, I was considering the parents of much more than HS level players.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:Anyway, it's been fun talking about this stuff, even if we did get a bit off the subject at times.

Another difference between the different levels is, its easy to see there’s a much higher level of maturity here than on boards that deal with lower levels. Evidently you haven’t been insulted by anything I’ve said, and I know I haven’t been bothered by what you have said to me. Its just a discussion board.

But try to have these same kinds of discussions with someone just beginning the journey and you’ll see very quickly that people get upset and personally offended much more easily.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:

Scorekeeper,

I'm sure you haven't been around here long enough to determine the messages I send.

You are assuming some things that couldn't be further from the truth. Now I'm starting to think one of two things.

1 - You do not know much about me or what my beliefs are. (Which I hope is the case)

2 - You have some other reason for these assumptions.

If you check back far enough, you will find just the exact opposite message coming from me. Many many times! I spent many years as a small college coach.

And It's hard to understand how telling someone NOT to waste money on showcases is making $$$$$$$$$$$ far too important of a role.
Here is exactly what I said

If you are a junior or senior throwing 73 mph, I do not think you should be spending any money going to showcases as a pitcher. Not if your purpose for going is to get an offer from a major college. It just isn’t going to happen in nearly every case.

How you got what you did out of that, I don't know! [QUOTE]

Well, your 2 assumptions are both correct to at least some degree.

I’m sure I will learn more about you and your beliefs over time, and I hope I won’t alienate you too much before that happens. ;-)

I do have other reasons for my assumptions, but that’s only to be expected. I’m very much more of a “NURTURE” than a “NATURE” guy, and that means I believe we all are the sum of all of our unique experiences. IOW, I understand that I am the way I am because of the things that have happened to me in this life, and that means I have to deal with my own biases and prejudices as well as yours, and everyone else’s.

Without going into an even longer and more drawn out explanation, basically I have a built in aversion to anything that tends to leave players out of the loop. Unfortunately, money and connections come under that aversion. I guess my leftist approach to life is beginning to show. ;-)

Let’s look at your quote for a second, and maybe I can at least give you some understanding of how I got what I did out of it.

It isn’t your 1st sentence that bothered me at all! That’s why I said I wasn’t disagreeing. But that 2nd sentence pushed a button.

Maybe I don’t think like everyone else does, but I interpreted that as saying there are only 2 reasons to go to a showcase. 1) get exposure to major colleges, and 2) put money in the pocket of the promoters of the showcase. So what I read was, the promoters will gladly take your money knowing they aren’t offering any value for it at all.

Sorry, but that grinds my gears.

Since I don’t have any way at all to know what really goes on in the board rooms of the companies who promote showcases, I surely can’t say they’re really these slimy guys who’d take the food money from some poor guy knowing full well his kid had zero chance of getting any value at all. Hey, its America and those folks are only selling a service. Caveat emptor!

But it would surely make me more comfortable seeing a bit more openness from the promoters, to the point where they explain the criteria they know the colleges will be looking for, before the guy writes the check.

I guess I’m just not at all comfortable with the process, and have my doubts as to its real worth. I hope that at least explains a little bit. I’m reluctant to go into more detail, simply because I don’t know who looks at this board, or for that matter who you are.

Suffice it to say I’ll be one of those whackos who’ll come off the wall with something you won’t understand once in a while. It isn’t personal, its just the way I feel based on my past experiences.

Surprising as it might seem, I think I actually understood all that.

Now I have to ask another question. You are not the guy who used to post here by the name of something "eye" are you? He was from California as well and your post kind of reminded me a little bit of him. I might have been the only one who actually grew to like him. Hope that's not the way it works out this time.

Guess I still don't understand how you interpreted this comment the way you did...
If you are a junior or senior throwing 73 mph, I do not think you should be spending any money going to showcases as a pitcher. Not if your purpose for going is to get an offer from a major college. It just isn’t going to happen in nearly every case.

I would think that, that is advice to "NOT" spend any money!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Surprising as it might seem, I think I actually understood all that.

YAHOO!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:Now I have to ask another question. You are not the guy who used to post here by the name of something "eye" are you? He was from California as well and your post kind of reminded me a little bit of him. I might have been the only one who actually grew to like him. Hope that's not the way it works out this time.

No! I can honestly say that until the 1st week in January, I’d never seen nor heard of this BB. However, I truly wish I’d have known it was her in 1999! It would have very likely made my and my son’s HS baseball career more enjoyable.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:Guess I still don't understand how you interpreted this comment the way you did...

I guess you’ll have to take it on faith that I don’t interpret things quite the way everyone else does, and live with that quirk. Its not that I’m trying to be an a** or just argue, its that I really try to be honest about how I see and feel about things.

If I knew you better and we were conversing privately, or we were sitting in the shade in the backyard having some kind of cool adult beverage on a 105 degree day, I feel confident I could explain myself in a way you would more easily understand.

But its no big thing! I really like being challenged. I’m old and don’t have that many challenges left, other than just staying alive! ;-)

4 more days and I’ll be able to transfer a lot of this energy into goin’ down and watchin’ tryouts and the early practices of the season.

Ouch! I guess I'm one of those ignorant dads who gets curious and wonders how fast his kid is throwing about twice a year. (I don't own a gun but I've had some coaches tell me) I also check his ht and wt about 3 times a year! Some how I can't see how it's so wrong to check on your own kids progress now and then. If he see's somebody checking with a gun HE wants to know his progress. He likes to see how high he can jump, how much he can lift, he even likes to hit at fields with fences so he knows how far he's hitting! I'm actually thinking of timing him in the 60 this yr so he can chart his progress.(didn't do that with 23 yr old)
I'm not quite getting why it might be wrong to check ht,wt,vertical, velocity, and 60 time, or are some ok and others not?

Innocent, Do not feel guilty!

IMO, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. It's all OK if that's what you want to do.

Thanks PGStaff, (big sigh) I'll fix my shorts and get some sleep!

Scorekeep..

I think what PG is trying to tell you: Sometimes a synopsis will do. Topical sentences are good, too.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think (for the most part) you guys are all correct when saying too much importance is placed on the gun reading. However, it really is important to some degree. I don’t think the best scouts and recruiters place too much importance on velocity. I think they place about the right importance on it. Personally, I think parents place more importance on it than scouts. Scouts will often like the guy who throws 89 better than the guy throwing 92. The parents of the boy throwing 92 might not understand why. The parents of the boy throwing 75 will argue the gun is over rated. We all have a natural tendency to adjust our thinking to our own situation. I know, because I’ve also been guilty of that.

The only point I’m trying to make is… Regarding the topic at hand…. Why would anyone care what the average high school velocity is, even if there was a way to accurately determine that? It’s absolutely meaningless to any young pitcher IMO. Furthermore, if the average velocity was, lets say, 73 mph… What does that tell you? If you are a junior or senior throwing 73 mph, I do not think you should be spending any money going to showcases as a pitcher. Not if your purpose for going is to get an offer from a major college. It just isn’t going to happen in nearly every case. I did see a knuckle baller get an offer once, but his fastball was 77-81.

If someone wants to try an experiment… Call any DI college in the country… Tell them your son is a great pitcher with command and good movement on all his pitches and he has great HS stats, but he throws his fastball in the 70s.

Then after talking to that recruiter, set by the phone and wait for him to call back. Let us all know how long it takes!

I think it’s important that parents and young players get good information. I think it’s important that a high school kid throwing in the 70s understands how the system works. Then they can strive to do whatever they can to have a realistic chance.

Velocity is far from the only thing that counts, but it is one thing that does count! And you don't need a radar gun to tell the huge difference between 90 and 80 and 70. The radar gun only stamps a number on it! If someone is a good pitcher who doesn't throw hard, who cares about the radar gun? Just enjoy what you have.

Lastly... Someone mentioned the average speed as being the easiest to hit. I do believe that it can be more effective throwing far below average than average. Far above average is a lot better though.

That was a great post Jerry. I hope that many people here read it, because it was well thought out and very true.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Scorekeep..

I think what PG is trying to tell you: Sometimes a synopsis will do. Topical sentences are good, too.

Well, the world today seems to want all communications bundled up into nice short sound bites or sentences, and that’s all good. But the trouble with that is, more often than not, there’s misunderstanding to the point where either the wrong message is sent, or the message is misunderstood and causes many subsequent messages to be sent in order to clear everything up.

Sorry, I ain’t built that way. I’d much rather take the time to try to explain something as well as I’m able the 1st time, rather than spend the next week trying to get things straight.

IB, what SK is alluding to is the dad who guns every single pitch his 9 or 10YO throws in every game. And very often those same dads who gun every pitch are those whose primary emphasis when working with their son is velocity. And in this part of the world anyhow, that is getting more common.

IMHO, that is not healthy. Please note, I am not saying that you are one of those dads.

Sure everyone today is curious what speed their kid throws. But young pitchers need the emphasis placed on mechanics, not the gun reading. Come to think of it, some older youths could use the same...

And is the pitcher throwing strikes and getting outs