Home visits to 8th graders????

Goosegg, first of all, I respect the fact that you're taking the time to do your own research into the NCAA rules.  Many folks don't take the time to do that.

I'll also readily admit that after many years of being a Division I compliance director, my interpretations can tend to be more conservative than others.  But I've done that to protect the people I'm advising.

Here's what I'm basing my interpretation on:

Goosegg posted:

The NCAA doesn't have any jurisdiction over a kid in nursery school or before; but if the word individual meant literally an individual, that would be the case as the only distinction made between kids is the term "prospective student athlete." 

Goose, technically the NCAA doesn't really have jurisdiction over anyone who isn't enrolled at a member institution, or who has at least signed an NLI, right? The eighth grader hasn't violated any rules when a coach comes to visit, but the coach better be sure s/he understands how to interpret them.

Spoke to a very prominent D1 coach who, while he doesn't recruit 8th graders, informed me that there is nothing in the rules preventing home coaching visits.

Rick - its great to be able to noodle it through. 

"A contact is any face-to-face encounter between a prospect, or the prospect’s parent or legal guardian, and an institutional staff member or athletics representative during which any dialogue occurs." 

I interpret this to mean that to be defined as a "contact" (and therefore subject to the NCAA rules):

a. there must be a prospect (or prospect's family), on the one hand,

AND

b. an institution, on the other. 

Because the eighth grader (absent a narrow exception) does not fall within the definition of prospect, the rule does  not apply. Since the NCAA crafted the rules,  it could have used the word "individual" - which would apply to everyone but chose not to. Under contract law (analogous), ambiguities are construed against the draftsman - in this case the NCAA.

However, if present trends continue, this rule may be changed.

Wouldn't a home visit from a DI coach automatically make the 8th grader a prospect?  Typically Coaches do everything possible to get these young kids on campus.

Goosegg posted:

Rick, I don't agree with your interpretation (though I wouldn't die on this hill).

You left out a key modifier in your quote:

"(1) off-campus recruiting contacts shall not be made with an individual (or his or her relatives or legal guardians) before September 1 at the beginning of his or her junior year in high school and that contacts that occur during a prospective student-athlete's junior year may occur only at the prospective student-athlete's educational institution or residence. . ."

The NCAA doesn't have any jurisdiction over a kid in nursery school or before; but if the word individual meant literally an individual, that would be the case as the only distinction made between kids is the term "prospective student athlete." 

I read these rules as first telling me to whom the rules apply; then telling schools, coaches, families, etc., what actions are allowed or proscribed to those effected. If it were otherwise, there is no purpose to using the term "prospective student athlete" because the rules would apply to everyone, everywhere, regardless of age, thereby rendering that term redundant and meaningless. (And the term "prospective student athlete" is a term clearly defined by the NCAA.)

 

See also, ("A contact is any face-to-face encounter between a prospect, or the prospect’s parent or legal guardian, and an institutional staff member or athletics representative during which any dialogue occurs.");  ("A prospective student-athlete is a student who has started classes for the ninth grade or above, including students in prep schools and junior colleges, and individuals who have of cially withdrawn from four- year schools. Any student not yet in the ninth grade becomes a prospect if an institution provides him or her with any nancial aid and/or bene ts that are not generally provided to prospective students.)" [In the last quoted passage, there are some narrow circumstances where a pre HS kid becomes a prospective student athlete. By specifically noting this exception, it is implied that other pre HS kids are not yet considered prospects, and therefore, not subject to the rules - yet.)

Speaking as someone whose job is basically spending most of my time interpreting statutes and contracts, I would definitely be arguing Goose's interpretation from a legal standpoint. It may not be what they intended when writing this, but they wrote themselves into a corner. They basically start with "individual" but then use the term "prospective student athlete" as what can only be seen as a synonym. Since they have defined, within the code the term "prospective student-athlete," the proper way to interpret this would be to simply substitute, word-for-word the definition for the term. 

As mentioned by Goose, they also specified conditions under which a pre-9th grader can be defined as a "prospective student athlete" which means that any pre-9th grader who does not fit within the parameters of the inclusion clause cannot be defined by the term and are excluded from the rule unless you can find some way to define a home visit as a benefit from the institution that isn't generally provided to prospective students. Logically, there would be NO REASON for this inclusion clause if an 8th grader were assumed to covered by this simply because he is an individual. 

If my client were a coach punished for a violation under this code, I would definitely say he has a solid legal action against the NCAA if he is damaged in any compensatable way. 

PGStaff posted:

Wouldn't a home visit from a DI coach automatically make the 8th grader a prospect?  Typically Coaches do everything possible to get these young kids on campus.

Only if you could successfully argue that a home visit is a benefit provided by the institution that is "not generally provided to prospective students." 

roothog66 posted:

Goosegg posted:

Rick, I don't agree with your interpretation (though I wouldn't die on this hill).

You left out a key modifier in your quote:

"(1) off-campus recruiting contacts shall not be made with an individual (or his or her relatives or legal guardians) before September 1 at the beginning of his or her junior year in high school and that contacts that occur during a prospective student-athlete's junior year may occur only at the prospective student-athlete's educational institution or residence. . ."

The NCAA doesn't have any jurisdiction over a kid in nursery school or before; but if the word individual meant literally an individual, that would be the case as the only distinction made between kids is the term "prospective student athlete." 

I read these rules as first telling me to whom the rules apply; then telling schools, coaches, families, etc., what actions are allowed or proscribed to those effected. If it were otherwise, there is no purpose to using the term "prospective student athlete" because the rules would apply to everyone, everywhere, regardless of age, thereby rendering that term redundant and meaningless. (And the term "prospective student athlete" is a term clearly defined by the NCAA.)

 

See also, ("A contact is any face-to-face encounter between a prospect, or the prospect’s parent or legal guardian, and an institutional staff member or athletics representative during which any dialogue occurs.");  ("A prospective student-athlete is a student who has started classes for the ninth grade or above, including students in prep schools and junior colleges, and individuals who have of cially withdrawn from four- year schools. Any student not yet in the ninth grade becomes a prospect if an institution provides him or her with any nancial aid and/or bene ts that are not generally provided to prospective students.)" [In the last quoted passage, there are some narrow circumstances where a pre HS kid becomes a prospective student athlete. By specifically noting this exception, it is implied that other pre HS kids are not yet considered prospects, and therefore, not subject to the rules - yet.)

Speaking as someone whose job is basically spending most of my time interpreting statutes and contracts, I would definitely be arguing Goose's interpretation from a legal standpoint. It may not be what they intended when writing this, but they wrote themselves into a corner. They basically start with "individual" but then use the term "prospective student athlete" as what can only be seen as a synonym. Since they have defined, within the code the term "prospective student-athlete," the proper way to interpret this would be to simply substitute, word-for-word the definition for the term. 

As mentioned by Goose, they also specified conditions under which a pre-9th grader can be defined as a "prospective student athlete" which means that any pre-9th grader who does not fit within the parameters of the inclusion clause cannot be defined by the term and are excluded from the rule unless you can find some way to define a home visit as a benefit from the institution that isn't generally provided to prospective students. Logically, there would be NO REASON for this inclusion clause if an 8th grader were assumed to covered by this simply because he is an individual. 

If my client were a coach punished for a violation under this code, I would definitely say he has a solid legal action against the NCAA if he is damaged in any compensatable way. 

 

While I am not a lawyer I do read and interpret government hazmat regulations often and I would have to agree that coaches are allowed to talk to and visit anyone prior to stepping foot in 9th grade based on the wording of who is covered.

If you ask me, it's a MAJOR rules loophole that exists because of poor rule-writing. It may also have been written at a time when the writers couldn't, in their wildest dreams, imagine this being a problem.

Poor rule-writing is also seen in state legislatures, by the way - some of the worst.

Definitely agree on some of the rules being poorly-written.  On the other hand, maybe I should thank them for allowing me to make a career out of interpreting this stuff for coaches, athletes, and families!!

CaCO3Girl posted:

To add, according to the PG website here is your top 10 class of 2021 (8th graders)

#1 = Virginia

#2 = Mississippi state

#3 = Miami

#4 = NOT COMMITTED

#5 = Louisville

#6 = NOT COMMITTED

#7 = NOT COMMITTED

#8 = NOT COMMITTED

#9 = Miami

#10 = Arizona

 

By any chance was the OP listening to one of these coaches?  Six out of Ten of these "8th" graders are already committed. Looks like coaches have found a loop hole. Talk to them before they are in high school all you would like.

I dont see anything really crazy here.

Of those committed in 2021:

#1 from Pa committs to VA

#2 from MS committs to MSU

#5 from KY committs to Louisville 

#9 from south florida committs to Miami

#10 from NV committs to AZ

All close to home and within traveling distance which saves folks tons of $$$$

Thats only 5 from  top 10. 

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

To add, according to the PG website here is your top 10 class of 2021 (8th graders)

#1 = Virginia

#2 = Mississippi state

#3 = Miami

#4 = NOT COMMITTED

#5 = Louisville

#6 = NOT COMMITTED

#7 = NOT COMMITTED

#8 = NOT COMMITTED

#9 = Miami

#10 = Arizona

 

By any chance was the OP listening to one of these coaches?  Six out of Ten of these "8th" graders are already committed. Looks like coaches have found a loop hole. Talk to them before they are in high school all you would like.

I dont see anything really crazy here.

Of those committed in 2021:

#1 from Pa committs to VA

#2 from MS committs to MSU

#5 from KY committs to Louisville 

#9 from south florida committs to Miami

#10 from NV committs to AZ

All close to home and within traveling distance which saves folks tons of $$$$

Thats only 5 from  top 10. 

The topic was are D1 coaches visiting 8th graders.  That would be a yes since 6 out of the top 10 are already committed.

Did they visit the home or did the player visit the school?

BTW, missed #3, player from Miami committs to UM.

FWIW, Jim Morris prefers his players to live in the local area. Players from here have been committing very early for years. I am assuming the same for both FSU and UF. Its a recruiting battle here in the sunshine state.

TPM posted:

Did they visit the home or did the player visit the school?

BTW, missed #3, player from Miami committs to UM.

FWIW, Jim Morris prefers his players to live in the local area. Players from here have been committing very early for years. I am assuming the s0a9me for both FSU and UF. Its a recruiting battle here in the sunshine state.

Morris has grabbed several 2020's from South Florida but I hear that Coach Melendez at FIU will give him a run for his money on the recruiting trail. 

KilroyJ posted:

I was recently listening to a podcast where they were interviewing a D1 baseball coach regarding recruiting, and he indicated it was getting harder, then mentioned that he had had two home visits to 8th graders this year. There was no follow up question and the interview moved on. Am I missing something here? Are there situations where this would be allowed?

The OP said above that the coaches visited the players home.

So one coach visited an 8th grader means everyone does. Did you hear the podcast? Who was the coach?

I am going to assume that most coaches ask players to visit on an UOV or attend a camp. In fact many of these players do attend local programs regularly.

And if he did visit, isnt that their business?

JMO

TPM posted:

So one coach visited an 8th grader means everyone does. Did you hear the podcast? Who was the coach?

I am going to assume that most coaches ask players to visit on an UOV or attend a camp. In fact many of these players do attend local programs regularly.

And if he did visit, isnt that their business?

JMO

Yeah, I have my doubts. Home visits in baseball are pretty rare even for upper-class players. Most likely misspoke and meant uov.

TPM posted:

So one coach visited an 8th grader means everyone does. Did you hear the podcast? Who was the coach?

I am going to assume that most coaches ask players to visit on an UOV or attend a camp. In fact many of these players do attend local programs regularly.

And if he did visit, isnt that their business?

JMO

Sending you a PM.

hshuler posted:

TPM posted:

Did they visit the home or did the player visit the school?

BTW, missed #3, player from Miami committs to UM.

FWIW, Jim Morris prefers his players to live in the local area. Players from here have been committing very early for years. I am assuming the s0a9me for both FSU and UF. Its a recruiting battle here in the sunshine state.

Morris has grabbed several 2020's from South Florida but I hear that Coach Melendez at FIU will give him a run for his money on the recruiting trail. 

Melendez is already reaching into Georgia too with an underclassmen. 

I'm finding this topic very interesting from the parental perspective.  I fully understand why the coaches do it, and I fully understand why the 8th grade recruits are interested (they don't know any better).  The parental perspective is the wild card.  My oldest played at a pretty high level since the time he was an eighth grader, and we (thankfully) never had to deal with this level of distraction, or complicaton.    I can't imaging how distracting this must be for those dealing with it as an 8th grader never mind how difficult it is for an "ordinary" 11th grader committing.   My son was skilled but not elite..  My kid knew what he wanted to do since he was 14 years old, and he is currently doing it at 25, and getting an advanced degree in that area.  He was pretty laser focused on his studies and baseball too.   For those recruits that don't have that laser focus or inner calling (that is not baseball) this must be incredibly confusing and pressure filled.  Tough times for a parent as you get sucked into the hype that is college baseball recruiting 4 years before it has any chance to be realized.   Good luck to those parents.  You have your work cut-out for yourself.  JMO.

In college softball if you don't take a D1 offer by early soph summer there's a good chance there won't be any available. My daughter wasn't a college star. She was a fourth outfielder for four years. She played in what was the 6th power conference before it imploded. It was normal then (she was a high school freshman fifteen years ago) and is now for female D1 prospects to be signed in 8th and 9th grade. I saw it with her female friends in other sports. I would hate to see this happen in across the board in D1 baseball. 

Fortunately she knew what she wanted academically. The school had one of the top programs in her major in the country. But when she decided to go to law school the top law schools saw her as graduating from a mediocre state university. She had to work at a major law firm to build contacts and references to get into a top law school.

Here in Fl,  8, 9th graders are being recruited for LAX. Also womens LAX is recruited early in Florida d2s.