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I just want to get a realistic idea of what schools I should be looking at as potential baseball teams right now. I'm a LHP rising junior (I still have time); I throw probably 82 MPH right now.

I have decent movement on my baseball and all, but I'm aware that velocity is the main determinant of where I'm fit to play baseball. I'm not really looking at huge D1 programs but rather the Ivy Leagues and some D3 schools; my academics come before athletics so I could never get involved in a big-time baseball program (plus, I wouldn't realistically have a chance).

Assuming I do not improve my velocity over the next year, is 82 MPH as a LHP adequate for D3 programs? What about Ivy League schools? My goal is to get up 4-5 MPH by the end of junior year; will this drastically increase my chances at getting attention from Ivy coaches? I would love to play ball for schools like Harvard, Princeton, and Dartmouth (and if I couldn't make it in for baseball, I'll likely try to get in just as a student).
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I disagree...a lefty throwing 82 as a rising junior, in my opinion, is definitely good enough for D3. I think (following normal growth) you would be up to the mid-high 80's by next year which is good enough for ivies. It depends on your body type also. If you're 6'3 160 then there's a lot of room for growth. If you're 5'9 190 and fully developed, there might not be much more velocity. Not knowing your body type though, I think 82 is still impressive for someone your age.
Not enough for a scholarship or athletic grant in aid. Ramp it up to 85 by working on your core and legs. Work with a reputable pitching coach to get the most out of your motion. What you do in the off season is crucial. There are no guarantees just because you are a leftie. I agree that you are fine now, but you need to work harder to get noticed.
I've seen many low to mid 80's pitchers in my area get D1 scholarships in the Big Ten, OVC, MVC, as well as some others. Colleges do notice when you have the ability to get hitters out despite being below some made up threshold of velocity. There are MANY guys that throw less hard than you in D3 schools, but they are great pitchers/competitors! Work at gaining velocity, don't get me wrong throwing harder is great and makes the process much easier, do NOT give up just because you don't think you throw hard enough. If you can pitch, there is someplace you can play.
A LHP at 82 can get a D1 scholarship. That is what my son threw and he had interest from some top colleges and several offers or offers to attend their camps.
Our second choice which wasn't based on BB gave him a great offer without ever being seen other than DVD.
I listened to D1 for years before my son went and have heard several comments by announcers about soft tossers at big programs. I also know a few in MLB.
You should know by now if you can pitch.
quote:
Originally posted by monstor344:
I throw probably 82 MPH right now.


Probably?

You may want to know EXACTLY what you are throwing. Not trying to sound harsh, but a lot of people "think" they are throwing harder than they really are.

It's a real slap in the face sometimes when you get a radar gun on you and you know for sure what your velocity is. Eek
quote:
Originally posted by RobV:
quote:
Originally posted by monstor344:
I throw probably 82 MPH right now.


Probably?

You may want to know EXACTLY what you are throwing. Not trying to sound harsh, but a lot of people "think" they are throwing harder than they really are.

It's a real slap in the face sometimes when you get a radar gun on you and you know for sure what your velocity is. Eek


Truer words have never been spoken. You'd be shocked at how inaccurate people's guesses at velocity are, even those with a good deal of experience.

When you hear from a 15U about how every kid they played in the summer threw in the mid-80s, it just isn't true. There just aren't that many. You'd really be surprised how few mid-80s kids there are in general. When my dad bought a stalker, a lot of people around here got humbled. We had gotten sick of kids claiming they threw close to 90 when many couldn't get past 75.
quote:
Originally posted by monstor344:
Assuming I do not improve my velocity over the next year, is 82 MPH as a LHP adequate for D3 programs? What about Ivy League schools? My goal is to get up 4-5 MPH by the end of junior year; will this drastically increase my chances at getting attention from Ivy coaches? I would love to play ball for schools like Harvard, Princeton, and Dartmouth (and if I couldn't make it in for baseball, I'll likely try to get in just as a student).


At D3 level, I have seen leftys that throw low 80's.............AND some that can bring it at the 90 level.....

A Lefty who can throw strikes is a desireable commodity.....
Monstor, I am going through this with my 17 year old son right now. A lefty that throws 81-83 and touches 85. All the D1 coaches tell him he needs to be around 85-87 and touch 88-89. I disagree!! When he throws 81-83 his ball moves and he gets guys out. when he over throws, the ball straightens out and he gets hit hard. My advice, keep getting guys out and take your chances. I'm telling my son to keep working hard and don't overthrow. I'd rather see outs and missed bats than velocity. Keep your head up and someday the coaches will figure it out.
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Loved this on the subject of velocity from PG Staff in another thread

quote:
Pro Scouts are most interested in projection. DI schools are most interested in what you have NOW. They can't afford to wait 3 or 4 years for a player to develop. However, there are many programs that are better at developing talent than others. People should be more observant regarding the best schools for developing a player/pitcher.

While there might be some DI schools that show interest in mid 80s pitchers, this is the exception not the rule. There are thousands of high school pitchers who throw mid 80s. There are a couple hundred that throw 90. Typically the high 80s and 90+ guys create the very most recruiting interest. This holds true in every part of the country. Once most all of the high 80 to 90+ guys are gone, the mid 80s pitchers are considered, if there is still a need for pitching.

Not trying to burst any bubbles, just think the facts might help people understand a bit better and make better decisions. It doesn't mean mid 80s pitchers have no chance. It means they have to be extra special and show it consistently to the right people. That in itself can be very difficult.

Also, I'm referring to the upper tier of DI for the most part. And I'm not talking about what they throw on the TV radar gun. Many pitchers who have shown the ability to throw 90 or better, end up pitching 85 to 88. Not many, especially RHPs, are given a DI scholarship because they showed mid 80s velocity in high school.

All that said... Anything is possible! And kids throwing mid 80s as high school underclassmen will create some interest. Possibly, that is what brod means when referring to projection. You definitely have to project underclassmen. Most of them get better. The 2011 throwing mid 80s might be throwing 90+ by his senior year. It happens for some and not for many others!


I have a 6'6", 220lb, Mid 80's, LHP headed for high end DI after little to no post HS 4 year interest and an award winning JC career at a top JC....I would agree completely.

Cool 44
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Last edited by observer44
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Yep, they are out there, but as PG said "...this is the exception not the rule."

In our years of experience there are many DI programs who simply will not consider, and do not have to consider pitchers of moderate velocity as they get the pick of the liter.

But there also ARE some great DI programs who always have a mid 80's LHP or two on staff and put them to great use. One that immediately comes to mind is ASU. But at that velocity you have to be exceptional AND identify a program that appreciates such talent. We were told that you neeeded to own a swing and miss pitch or two (other than a fast ball) and be able to really control you spots, and be very tough mentally on the mound, and be a groundball picther and and be experienced, and on and on. In other words possible, but there is very little margin for error. Really have to own the craft.

Cool 44
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Last edited by observer44
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Why ?

My first priority has and always will be academics. When I decide between colleges in a few years, I'll likely go with the one that presents the best academic opportunities regardless of if I'm actually being recruited to play baseball there, unless the schools I'm being recruited for are already amongst my top academic choices.
Monstor, over the last 4 months, 3 of the left handers who pitch on my summer team have committed to very large scholarships with Division 1 programs out here in California, so perhaps reading about each of them will give you an idea of what college coaches are looking for.

The first player to commit is a 2010 student, he'll be a senior this coming fall. He committed to a scholarship that can't get any larger with a private university that plays in the West Coast Conference (WCC). He is young, just turned 17, but he is 6'4" and 160 pounds. His fastball sits at 83-84, but has excellent sink and run. His #2 pitch is his changeup, which is very advanced for a high school player, in fact it is as good as many D1 players already, velo on it is about 72-73. His curveball sits around 68-70. What he does have is solid command of all his pitches, good movement on his FB and change, and a very projectible upside.

The 2nd lefthander to commit actually graduated prior to getting this offer. He was planning on attending a jr. college when he was seen by several D1 coaches in a couple of our games, and offers came in right away at that point. His fastball sits 86-87, and he'll touch 88 now and then. Good curveball and changeup. What he posses the most is command (you'll keep hearing that word here) His fastball has late movement. He's a very tough competitor with a bit of "red-***" in him, in a good sense. He's 6'2" and 175, another projectible body guy. He ended up with a very large scholarship to a WCC university, depsite being a very late sign.

The 3rd pitcher is a 2010 who just commmitted about 10 days ago to a Pac-10 school. His fastball sits at 84-85, and he occasionally will pop one as high as 88. His curveball sits around 66-68, his slider is 78-80 and his change is around 75 or so. What he does have, instead of velocity, is command of all his pitches. He's a strike thrower, a very aggresive pitcher who loves to come inside and get ahead in the count. His strikeouts to walks ratio is pretty consistent at around 5 or 6 Ks to each walk, and he averages about 1.5 Ks per inning. In other words, he misses a lot of bats. He's another guy with a very substantial scholarship. He recently turned 17, and goes 6'2" and 180.

None of these players have blazing fastballs, though the 2009 player has more velo than the other two. What all three have in common is an ability to pitch to both sides of the plate, as well as throw all of their pitches for strikes. In other words, they all know how to PITCH. All three also have learned how to compete, and don't take that lightly as it is very important. A lot of guys who can pitch a little don't know how to compete and don't go very far as a result.

They also have something else in common, and it is as important as anything to an aspiring college player --- they all have good grades in high school. If you don't take care of your academics, you can pretty much forget going straight to a D-anything school and will be looking at juco....or getting a real job.

Each of these boys, though they got different deals, received more than 70% of the total cost of attendance to very expensive schools where the degree is among the most respected of any university in the country. In the end, being a quality left handed PITCHER (as opposed to thrower) and a good student is what made the difference, to them, and to their parents finances.
Last edited by 06catcherdad
By the way, since you say that you're primarily interested in going to ivy league schools, I'll share this. One of my catchers will be a freshman this fall at Yale. He's been told by their baseball coach that he has the lowest GPA and SAT of any of their incoming freshman players. His GPA is a weighted 4.35 and he scored 1920 on the SAT with an ACT score of something like 33. He was also class president all four years at a private Jesuit High School, very active in service clubs,did community work, etc. and was the starting quarterback on the football team.

That'll give you an idea of where the bar is set for baseball players at Ivy League schools.
Monstor that really doesn't answer the question WHY. Do those schools offer a major you are interested in or do you think they offer something that other s don't.
There are hundreds of colleges that offer excellent undergrad studies at a much lower cost. Graduate studies are a totally different issue. That is where you should be very selective. That is where you select based on a discipline that you intend to follow.
I would suggest you,if you haven't already investigate a lot more before you buy the brand and wind up at a college where you might be very unhappy.
I have had several fiends go to Harvard and they are unusual and I don't just mean smart. One is there now. He is brilliant in medical research. They wooed him and actually pay him to attend. Another guy left after 1 year. He hated Harvard and it wasn't because of money or smarts. His Dad is a corporate Lawyer and Mother a college prof.
There are lots of top students who go to colleges for undergrad because they love the atmosphere and get just as good an education.
Both my son's roommates were 4.0 students all 4 years at college. The one is starting Law school at U South Carolina and had acceptances from every law school he applied to. The other is deciding what he wants after his fiancé graduate with her masters in MD.
Don't overate undergrad studies at the big brand schools. I went to one and the truth is it was no different than any other college. Yes they had a great med school, law school etc. It had several Rhodes Scholars and students from all over the world. My Profs were as weird as the next prof with Doctorates and world renowned bodies of work. The fact is the courses were the same as every other college.
quote:
Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
By the way, since you say that you're primarily interested in going to ivy league schools, I'll share this. One of my catchers will be a freshman this fall at Yale. He's been told by their baseball coach that he has the lowest GPA and SAT of any of their incoming freshman players. His GPA is a weighted 4.35 and he scored 1920 on the SAT with an ACT score of something like 33. He was also class president all four years at a private Jesuit High School, very active in service clubs,did community work, etc. and was the starting quarterback on the football team.

That'll give you an idea of where the bar is set for baseball players at Ivy League schools.
I know a kid playing baseball at Harvard and a kid playing at Penn who had 3.5's and 1300's (math & verbal). When Harvard won an NCAA D1 hockey championship, I doubt they did it with a bunch of high school valdedictorians. Check out the following site .... Ivy League Academic Index for Athletes
Last edited by RJM
RJM and Bobblehead, I'm only relaying what I was told. I have no way of verifying it. I do know that the reason this player was eventually signed by Yale was that the catcher they originally wanted had turned down one of the top Pac-10 programs to attend Yale, but wasn't accepted by admissions. This was a student who apparently had the grades to go to a top west coast private university, but couldn't get into Yale.

The catcher who plays for me was offered a roster spot, but only on the condition that they could get him admitted to school. He had to go through the admissions process before the baseball opportunity was formalized. Beyond that, I can't say what the situation might be.
quote:
Monstor that really doesn't answer the question WHY. Do those schools offer a major you are interested in or do you think they offer something that other s don't.

Perhaps not literally just Ivy D1 schools, but I want a school that offers me strong academic opportunities. I don't know exactly what I'd like to pursue as an adult but coming from a wealthy family with high ambitions, I have set high academic ambitions for myself as well. I understand that there are hundreds of great colleges in the US but just like the best baseball players want to go to the best D1 schools, as a strong student I want the best academic schools that will leave me with the best chances to succeed in life. I am not strapped for money so I am not looking for the strongest scholarship opportunities either. Believe me, I am not obsessed with school prestige; I have done a bit of research on colleges this summer in fact.

quote:

His GPA is a weighted 4.35 and he scored 1920 on the SAT with an ACT score of something like 33. He was also class president all four years at a private Jesuit High School, very active in service clubs,did community work, etc. and was the starting quarterback on the football team.

That'll give you an idea of where the bar is set for baseball players at Ivy League schools.


I've yet to take the SAT officially but based on my results from blue book practice tests, I'll be well-qualified for top schools, with or without baseball.

EDIT: Going by the AI chart my AI will probably be in the high 230s.
Last edited by monstor344
quote:
monstor

A few questions:

Have the schools on your list seen you pitch?
What team do you play for in the summer and fall?
where are you locazted in NY?


MIT and Columbia have seen me once; none of the other schools have seen me.

I play for my high school in the summer and fall.

Sorry, but at the moment I feel slightly uncomfortable disclosing my location.
It seems to me that RJM's example doesn't contradict the assertion relayed by 06catcherdad. A weighted 4.35 can easily be a 3.5 unweighted. 1300 on two tests prorates to 1950 on 3 tests. And "1300s" probably means more than 1300, and thus likely well more than 1920.

Now for some very stale information. Forty years ago, I worked at Yale, and was privy to what it took to get admitted to Yale as an athlete. As I recall, possibly dimly, only football, hockey and basketball could expect to get sub-par students through admissions. At the time, hockey was seemingly bigger than basketball. (By the way, the #3 criterion was "alumni father or uncle.")

I suspect that, even now, non-revenue sports take in mostly band 3/4 players, so that the revenue sports can bring in the academic challenges.

I am still amused by the the following: Back in the dark ages, Yale computed a projected GPA for each incoming student, and distributed that along with the class list to each professor. I think the intention was to identify students who might need extra help. A professor I knew was stunned to find that he had a freshman student with a projected GPA of 0.0! Upon checking it turned out 0.0 really meant less than 1.8 (or 1.9; I don't remember exactly). Still this was an extraordinarily low projected GPA for an admitted student. The student made it barely through the first semester, and gave up all pretense of trying during the second semester. Then it was back to Canada and into pro hockey! Yale had a pretty good season that year......

But I don't think it happens in baseball.
Monstor

I can assure you that going to Yale or any other college will assure you of success. Once you get the door open it will be up to you and what you learned in college may or may not help you.

I also grew up in a wealthy family and it could have been the worst thing that could happen. I vowed never to spoil my kids. Everything is handed to you and you really don't have to think about or pay for anything. My connections did get me to places I might not have gotten to but I finally realized I didn't want what I was heading to. Fortunately I was able to land on my feet.
3Finger according to the documentary I watched BB also had a small share of academic admits. I was surprised at the large % of admissions set aside for athletes. It was as high as 30% at some ivy colleges.
I know several hockey players who attended Ivy's and graduated . 2 years ago the top NCAA D1 ladies hockey player was a friend of my son. Mitchel Haines at Cal Berkley (rowing) just graduated and is a close friend of my son. He has friends at some Major D1 schools in several sports. Most of them got big scholarships in tennis,basketball, rowing,track. I can tell you that several could not get into colleges without sports in the US. Schools like Cornell, Peperdine, Miami,Oklahoma,Boston,Harvard and many others.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
quote:
Originally posted by Liberty:
....the LHP for Nashville, Chris Cody, is throwing fastballs in the low 80's. He's considered a "control pitcher," according to the announcer.


I know and have watched Chris Cody. He attended Brewster "Bears" HS in NY and Manhattan College. Was drafted in the early rounds by my friend Bill Buck of the Tigers. Got traded and watched him pitch for the Brewers West Va Power, Brevard County, and with the Huntville Stars prior to Nashville. Cody is a proverbial soft and crafty throw to contact type. His arsenal includes late movement of his 83 mph fastball, a + deuce, and a big league change. He has command of pitches, throws strikes early in the count, hits his spots and should he continue to get AAA hitters out (as he did in AA, A+ & A ball), may get called up in Sept.

There are places in many colleges at any Division, for a LHP with the ability to throw quality and consistent strikes, and get hitters out.

This type of skill is NOT considered an exception by anyone who knows baseball, projects talent, leaves the radar gun in the car and watches a kid for "pitchability".
Last edited by Bear
Came back from my first showcase a few weeks ago; posting here just to respond to a few points:

1) I was somewhat weary about responding to posts asking if I was a pitcher or thrower because, well, I couldn't be sure until the showcase. After pitching at the showcase and receiving feedback from coaches I feel confident in saying that I am a left-handed PITCHER who throws for location. I am not an erratic gun-slinger.

2) With that said, my velocity prediction was spot-on.

3) I'm not really looking for athletic scholarships. Just the opportunity to play baseball at a strong academic school would be enough for me (plus, I'm aware that Ivy League schools do not offer athletic scholarships, only scholarships based on need).

Also, another question: are certain Ivy League schools considered stronger and thus more difficult to get recruited by? Or is the league well-balanced making each school as difficult to get recruited by as the others?
Monstor,

You can answer some of your questions with a little research. Go to the Ivy teams sites and go through their rosters. Make a little spreadsheet and list each player's secondary school baseball accomplishments. Look at the stats pages and figure out who the starters were.

I believe you will find that most of their starters had pretty high credentials.
quote:
Originally posted by monstor344:
my academics come before athletics so I could never get involved in a big-time baseball program (plus, I wouldn't realistically have a chance).

I would love to play ball for schools like Harvard, Princeton, and Dartmouth (and if I couldn't make it in for baseball, I'll likely try to get in just as a student).


I think that you have a very realistic approach to this whole thing, you have determined what is best for you, and there is nothing wrong with going to a specific program for academics first. Smile

OB44 and PG have done a nice job of replying to your post.
From a D1 standpoint, what I have seen, no top tier baseball program recruits LHP with less velocity than 90+, you will find a few LHP lower, but in most cases, they never become starters, and just used in situational matchups (lefty/lefty). That does not change even if someone is getting players out, the coaches from big schools want higher velo guys in their program, period.
But there are some very fine programs with great academic programs that can be as valuable as a Harvard, Princeton or Dartmough degree. What you need to do is contact coaches that you are interested in, that's always a good starting point.

Good luck.
Thanks for the response TPM. When you say a top tier baseball program, I assume you are speaking of Texas/LSU/ASU/etc? How much do Ivy League schools compare to that level of competition?

Also, I've never heard before that pitchers need 90+ velocity to get noticed by D1 programs, especially not LHPs. Are you sure that pertains to top academic schools with relatively high academic standards for their athletes? And what about "Group 4+" athletes, or athletes who are above an Ivy League school's average academic index?

Another thing; lots of responses have been targetted towards my interest in Ivy League schools. I am also, however, interested in a few top academic D3 programs, including MIT (possibly my top choice from an academic standpoint). Am I where I need to be for those schools?
Last edited by monstor344
My son's college was playing Florida state a few years ago, The one LHP on FS was throwing 78 and they referred to him as a very successful pitcher. FS was ranked #1 that year.
Also there are lots of great relievers in college ball and not all want to be a starter.
Regardless of your velocity let the coaches tell you and do not rely on other people. Lots of D1 pitchers including RHPs do not throw 90+.
My son was 6'3 165lbs and he had several offers and invites to tryouts. Some of them were top should including Miami U. We never attended any showcases except 1 put ob by his team.
Yes my son was always told to increase his velocity, maybe show cases would have got him even more interest and some high profile schools interest but that was never our goal. He just wanted to pitch against them. If your desire is to play pro they draft from all divisions.

You really have to be careful about what you wish for. Playing for a team you can't get playing time is tough in more ways than one.
Interesting article on academic achievers.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/211432
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
From a D1 standpoint, what I have seen, no top tier baseball program recruits LHP with less velocity than 90+, you will find a few LHP lower, but in most cases, they never become starters, and just used in situational matchups (lefty/lefty).


Wow, the Florida schools must be tough! I see a fair amount of PAC-10 games, and there are quite a few pitchers, including right handers, who pitch in the high 80s. Watch the NCAA regionals and WS games, and take note of the radar readings; you'll see lots of pitchers who don't reach 90+. Yet nearly all of those pitchers are recruited.

Something to bear in mind--with high end colleges wrapping up their recruiting much earlier, schools do have to give more thought to projection than they used to. For a 2010, it will be 18 months before he can pitch in a real game, and a skinny tall kid who is throwing, say, 87-88 will get recruited, even if he is right handed (but has movement, command, etc.)

Having said all that, there are way more pitchers who can throw at 85 than at 90. A good pitcher who can hit 90 is very much in demand. The same level of skill, but at 85, is not a rare commodity. The steep slope of the number of pitchers versus velocity means that it is important to know whether 87 means "all time fastest pitch" or "sits at 87".

In any case, 82 mph, even for a 2010 lefthander, is on the slow side. I'd think that the only D1 schools that would be interested would be Ivys. A school like Stanford, which ranks among the top in admission standards, would not, I believe, have any interest.
3FingeredGlove, was that a typo? I am a 2011 LHP (rising junior). I understand that Stanford is out of my reach as well; I do love the school though and if for any reason college baseball doesn't work out, I'll probably apply early to Stanford solely as a student.

Back to my question about academic index, exactly how much does it affect how strong of a pitcher I need to be at the Ivy League schools, considering that my academic index will likely be near-perfect (high 230s), putting me in the higher echelon to the recruiting process as it once was at Ivies?

Another thing: I do not mind if I get stuck in a relieving role, nor do I even mind if I have to ride the bench my freshman year. I love baseball but it's a step I'm willing to take if it means getting into a dream program.
Last edited by monstor344
No, it wasn't a typo, but it wasn't very well explained either. In your first post, you asked a question under the assumption that you wouldn't gain any velocity over the next year. So you'd still be at 82 next year. I transformed that into how it would look this year if you were a 2010. Very poorly stated on my part.

On the other hand your goal of gaining 4-5 mph over the next year would put you into a good position, I suppose, for Ivy League schools.

Regarding very high academic status: that's great, but I believe that once a player exceeds the threshold for inclusion in a particular academic rating, anything extra really doesn't do the athletic program much good. So I doubt that it is valued.
quote:
Regarding very high academic status: that's great, but I believe that once a player exceeds the threshold for inclusion in a particular academic rating, anything extra really doesn't do the athletic program much good. So I doubt that it is valued.

So being a high "band 4" athlete wouldn't necessarily mitigate the athletic standards I have to fulfill compared with a "band 2 or 3" athlete? I take it the academic index is no longer quite as relevant for Ivy League schools as it used to be? Thanks for your response.
I think the root of your questions are: Will your grades get you on the baseball team?

This summer we have talked to many of the ivies, and basically they are saying that they can recruit enough academically qualified kids that they don't need to lower their standards for baseball skills much at all. If a kid isn't getting D1 interest from other colleges, the ivies probably won't be interested either.

The academic index bands are seldom an issue with baseball. Football (with its large roster size) may use the high academic recruits to even things out, but baseball doesn't really have to. Also, the ivies carry a smaller roster, so they like versatile players, and players that can contribute immediately.

This stuff changes every year, so even examples of things that happened 2-4 years ago, can be outdated. If anything, the trend is that there are more high school players that get good enough grades to get into an ivie, so it is the baseball skills that are getting kids recruited.
Last edited by Blprkfrnks
http://www.amazon.com/Playing-...dp/0972202668#reader

With all the tools you have today I can't understand why this belief has legs.

Goggle the term "Athletic Admits " its real and exists in every Ivy. PBS dad a 2 hour documentary where several IVY presidents admitted it and said their goal was to have a well rounded student body not just academic grinders. That included athletes and below standard academic students.
quote:

The academic index bands are seldom an issue with baseball. Football (with its large roster size) may use the high academic recruits to even things out, but baseball doesn't really have to. Also, the ivies carry a smaller roster, so they like versatile players, and players that can contribute immediately.

You're right, this is essentially what I was looking for. Thanks!
quote:

Goggle the term "Athletic Admits " its real and exists in every Ivy. PBS dad a 2 hour documentary where several IVY presidents admitted it and said their goal was to have a well rounded student body not just academic grinders. That included athletes and below standard academic students.

Of course I understand that they can lower academic standards; I just wasn't sure how relevant the academic index/academic bands are to baseball recruiting.

Anyhow, I suppose the only real question I have is if a mid-80s LHP with certain characteristics (fastball movement, deceptive motion, strong curve/decent change) and strong grades/scores (3.95 UW, 2350+ SAT, 800/800/790 SAT subject test scores) is a strong candidate for Ivy League baseball (I'm just throwing the academic info just to give a better idea of where I am as a student) or if I need to improve from an athletic standpoint.
Last edited by monstor344
You always need to improve regardless of your ability. But a lhp that can pitch and throws in the mid 80's can pitch at any level. Get out there and compete against the best you can compete against and see how you perform. And the interest you get and who you get it from will tell you what those that matter really think. Good Luck
quote:
Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
From a D1 standpoint, what I have seen, no top tier baseball program recruits LHP with less velocity than 90+, you will find a few LHP lower, but in most cases, they never become starters, and just used in situational matchups (lefty/lefty).


Wow, the Florida schools must be tough! I see a fair amount of PAC-10 games, and there are quite a few pitchers, including right handers, who pitch in the high 80s. Watch the NCAA regionals and WS games, and take note of the radar readings; you'll see lots of pitchers who don't reach 90+. Yet nearly all of those pitchers are recruited.

Something to bear in mind--with high end colleges wrapping up their recruiting much earlier, schools do have to give more thought to projection than they used to. For a 2010, it will be 18 months before he can pitch in a real game, and a skinny tall kid who is throwing, say, 87-88 will get recruited, even if he is right handed (but has movement, command, etc.)

Having said all that, there are way more pitchers who can throw at 85 than at 90. A good pitcher who can hit 90 is very much in demand. The same level of skill, but at 85, is not a rare commodity. The steep slope of the number of pitchers versus velocity means that it is important to know whether 87 means "all time fastest pitch" or "sits at 87".

In any case, 82 mph, even for a 2010 lefthander, is on the slow side. I'd think that the only D1 schools that would be interested would be Ivys. A school like Stanford, which ranks among the top in admission standards, would not, I believe, have any interest.


Sorry, I must have been sleeping. Red Face
Let me repeat, most top tier baseball programs I have seen, LHP are recruited in very high 80's, usually becoming 90+ guys (projectible) after a few years. A lot depends on the program and their goals for pitching.
I didn't mean just here in FL. Smile
But FWIW, the top programs in FL, UM, FSU and UF do not sign pitchers unless they are top velo guys. The may recruit them but they don't sign them unless the need an extra arm with hopes his velo will improve.
Last edited by TPM
Play 9,

The All American Prospects, are they a very good team? Top tier? If so you may be better served by playing for a program that is not geared toward seeding the Top Tier D-1 programs and MLB.

If you were to find a team that plays a similar schedule that was not so rich in pitching, you might find out that you are a starter and get the innings in so that you are seen by a wider array of recruiters.

Play 9 you have a PM.

You should really have no problem playing for a mid level to lower level D-1 or any number of Florida JUCO's.

I would get a video together and circulate it. If you have control you should be able to find a home at the next level.
Last edited by floridafan
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
My son's college was playing Florida state a few years ago, The one LHP on FS was throwing 78 and they referred to him as a very successful pitcher. FS was ranked #1 that year.
Also there are lots of great relievers in college ball and not all want to be a starter.
Regardless of your velocity let the coaches tell you and do not rely on other people. Lots of D1 pitchers including RHPs do not throw 90+.


You want to tell me who that was? We played many (close to a dozen)games against FSU and never ONCE did we see a pitcher throwing 78. MM would never use a pitcher throwing 78 unless he had to.
Perhaps that was a weekday game and coach threw someone to save an arm?
My point is that if RJ can play MLB so can a 80 mph player play D1 BB at the highest level. TPM it isn't about you. This guy needs to know the truth and he is only limited by his desire and skill. I and others have seen low 80s guys at top D1 schools. Yes coaches like velocity but there is room for a soft tosser on any level of D1. Keep your BS out of it.
By the way my son's school had 3 guys in the 90s. One hitting 98mph playing in the cape. He has an ERA there of 2.5.
Our closer was a soft tossing LHP who plays pro ball and held the school record for saves.
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
From a D1 standpoint, what I have seen, no top tier baseball program recruits LHP with less velocity than 90+, you will find a few LHP lower, but in most cases, they never become starters, and just used in situational matchups (lefty/lefty).

I don't think this is even close to being true. IN the CWS this year, ASU's top lefty pitcher was a kid my son grew up with. He was hitting 83-84 all during the CWS, and that was on the "ESPN gun."

He was 9-5 at ASU with a 3.01 ERA last year.
Rob is right. Throwing 90 in D1 baseball from the left side is the exception, not the rule. College baseball is replete with junkballers that are successful. There is no reward for throwing a 91 MPH fastball on the inner half. Pitches that break bats against wood are line drives in D1. Unless you throw 94+, velocity seems immaterial except that the change of speeds is a definite advantage. Anyone who throws 90+ from the left side is smart to get out of college baseball as fast as possible before they blow their arm out from constantly throwing junk.
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
http://www.amazon.com/Playing-...dp/0972202668#reader

With all the tools you have today I can't understand why this belief has legs.

Goggle the term "Athletic Admits " its real and exists in every Ivy. PBS dad a 2 hour documentary where several IVY presidents admitted it and said their goal was to have a well rounded student body not just academic grinders. That included athletes and below standard academic students.


If this was directed to me, then I would simply reply that the links you gave are from 2004, 5 years ago, and it is likely the documentary was reporting older studies and facts as well.

I'm reporting information that is 1 month old and is straight from the recruiter's mouths. Baseball can not be lumped with all ivy sports, and it is changing year to year. 5 years is a long time ago in their world.
quote:
I'm reporting information that is 1 month old and is straight from the recruiter's mouths. Baseball can not be lumped with all ivy sports, and it is changing year to year. 5 years is a long time ago in their world.



The documentary I watch is as current as a documentary can be . I watched about a month ago. BB was featured in the documentary as well as the money sports.
Some of the guys that were inerviewed are in the article below.

http://media.www.dailypennsylv...s.Game-2182574.shtml
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
If you all go back and read, I said that most top tier schools that I have seen, the LHP are high velocity guys.
I also said it depends on the programs philosophy.
I also never said a lower velo lefty guy can't play D1 ball, I was giving my perception as to what I have seen, at most games I have attended.
East coast baseball is a lot different than that played in the west, pitching dominates where out west hitting dominates.
It was mentioned that a guy pitching 78 at FSU who was very good, I asked who, because I never saw a lefty at FSU throw 78, or any other top tier baseball program out this way. I am talking the top tier of the conferences.
As far as leaving out the BS BHD,, I agree, why are you linking stuff 5 years ago, and why are we now comparing MLB players to college guys.
There was no reason to bring up a MLB guy in this situation, the player is looking to go to school and get a degree, I never saw anything mentioned about going beyond that.
If you all go back to the original post, monster was asking a question and being very realistic in his topic, his priority is academics, and advice given to him should be as to what he is looking for not what any of us thinks he should b elooking for. He was already challenged to as to why he just is looking into Ivy schools. Ridiculous.
As far as Play9's comments about no offers, I can definetly relate to what he is saying, if he is concentrating on the top programs here as a LHP(with average grades) at that velo, it might not happen, you have to be closer to 90. His best interest would be the mid D1's here or as Floridafan suggests, JUCO. Not sure what he is looking for, but you won't find it here, go out and do your homework.
The best advice for both players is to get out and be seen by those schools you are interested in either be it academics or for the baseball program.
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
If the pitcher who throws with this type of velocity has the grades why not look at the top D-III programs in the Northeast


You are right TR, he did ask about D3 programs, but no one really responded. Seems to me the young man is more interested in his grades, then being the next RJ Swindle!

BTW, my comment about not finding it here, Play9 was asking in the FL thread if any coach is looking for a player, that's not how you get noticed. JMO.
Last edited by TPM
I retracted that statement.

BTW, still waiting for an answer as to who the 78 mph lefty was at FSU. Was that 78 at FB, or off speed? Surely you must remember that one.

Also, why do you keep bringing up where your son was recruited? FWIW, your son, my son and many websters sons too were also recruited to many schools such as UM, the bottom line, anyone can get a recruiting letter, invite to a camp, phone call, the bottom line is where you end up, whether it be for the bb program or academic program and where you had success either in bb or in the classroom, what happended in recruting to our kids 5-6 years ago is completely irrevelant to recruting today, in case you haven't taken notice.
Last edited by TPM
Bobblehead,

My point isn't to argue with you, but to present the OP with some current information. A documentary could be looking at data that is 5 years old as well. However, you seem to be focusing on athletes with less academic merit getting into top academic schools rather that what the OP is asking about, which is a top academic achiever getting an edge to play baseball. The message presented by recruiters for 7 of the 8 ivies (no Harvard) was that you need the baseball talent first and foremost. The baseball rosters are smaller at these schools and they can't carry players that won't contribute.

To the OP:
Focus on getting better, and get to some camps, tryouts, or showcases that will allow you to get an unbiased evaluation of your skills. One of the lessor ivies is recruiting a LHP that throws 85 mph, but with a great changeup as an out pitch. Another of the ivies currently has a pitcher that has hit 98 mph. They want pitchers that have shown they can pitch and project to be D1 talent.
That is why I started a separate thread on the subject.

This has been going on since Adam & Eve and if anything it has expanded. I haven't been able to find the documentary but it was current and referred to all the Ivys. It was 2hrs long and featured interviews with coaches,presidents, ADs and the president of the NCAA. It wasn't just about Ivys but college athletes getting preferential treatment at all levels of college sports. It was one of the most informative documentaries on college sports I have ever seen or read.
All schools bend rules regarding admissions for all sports.
Not arguing just stating facts.
The reason for the documentary was that a lot of academic staff at high ranked colleges said athletes were taking spots of academically qualifies students. The college presidents retorted that the athletes offered a more rounded student boby. They fought the challenge and won.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
I think I was pointing out that marks are not always an issue at Ivys. He got some great answers that indicated that marks to a point have some benefit in regards to a coach using his BB money in D1 but in Ivys a players BB skills could bump a good academic student that was otherwise a shoe in at an IVY. That is what brought on the challenge by IVY staffs.
I know several hockey guys who went to Cornell and they were average students. Since they were also not able to afford an IVY I wondered how the could afford to go. The one kids father was a sports announcer here which is a very low paying profession. They lived in a modest semi detached so if Ivys don't give Hockey scholarships how did he do this ? His older brother worked for me but I never asked.
I remember 7 or 8 years ago going to a Giants game and watching Kirk Rueter (LHP) top out at 85-87 and be very successful. I thought, wow, my son can throw that hard at age 16...he's got enough velocity to pitch in the big leagues!

Wrong...obviously.

Its too easy to watch the exceptional case (and the ASU LHP is an 'exceptional' case) and think that its all you need. No, no, no. The truth is that he, and Kirk Reueter, are big-time exceptions...1-in-a-thousand, maybe 1-in-a-million?

Go back and read PGStaff's words (as quoted by O44):

quote:
It doesn't mean mid 80s pitchers have no chance. It means they have to be extra special and show it consistently to the right people.


This is the reality of it all. Don't watch that 1-in-a-million and think its impossible...but don't think its routine either. Its far, very far from that.

monstor - From your messages on here, it seems you have a pretty good head on your shoulders. The very best to you. Let us know how it all progresses. Wink
Last edited by justbaseball
quote:
I remember 7 or 8 years ago going to a Giants game and watching Kirk Rueter (LHP) top out at 85-87 and be very successful. I thought, wow, my son can throw that hard at age 16...he's got enough velocity to pitch in the big leagues!

Wrong...obviously.

Its too easy to watch the exceptional case (and the ASU LHP is an 'exceptional' case) and think that its all you need. No, no, no. The truth is that he, and Kirk Reueter, are big-time exceptions...1-in-a-thousand, maybe 1-in-a-million?

Go back and read PGStaff's words (as quoted by O44):

"It doesn't mean mid 80s pitchers have no chance. It means they have to be extra special and show it consistently to the right people."

This is the reality of it all. Don't watch that 1-in-a-million and think its impossible...but don't think its routine either. Its far, very far from that.


Excellent, excellent post.

That's why the David Ecksteins and Joe Morgans of this world are so lauded and admired. Despite the long odds, they overcame perception, persevered, and swam upstream until they reached that elusive goal. Everyone loves the underdog.
Yeah, he would be 1-in-a-zillion.

The problem here is some of you guys are taking the one guy you saw who beat all the odds and assuming it can be done more routinely than is reality. I don't wanna write anything that discourages anyone, but I won't use a six-sigma kid to portray the odds for the next kid to be something they are not. Go read PGStaff's comment...again. Thats the reality.

I guess I cannot speak for Cornell, but that GPA just wouldn't work at Stanford unless there's a whole lotta other stuff to make the kid pretty special. Thats reality too.
Yes like a great hockey play.

I am not sure but several posters have witnessed low 80 guys at top D1 colleges. That unless they are lying seems to up the anti. Not all have to be the stud on a team like ASU to have a great BB experience.
LHPs in the high 80s are draft prospects if they can pitch. No one is arguing that high velo ups your chances.
Jeff francis was sitting at 80 mph and couldn't get a scholarship from a US college. He developed into the 90s, is now injured but the last contract was 13 million a year. Soft tossers do have a tough mountain to climb. My son was up to 86-87 and he wasn't the pitcher that went off to college when he was 82-82.
Not talking about 1 guy just showing those as one of those who have succeded
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
quote:
Originally posted by justbaseball:
I guess I cannot speak for Cornell, but that GPA just wouldn't work at Stanford unless there's a whole lotta other stuff to make the kid pretty special. Thats reality too.

justbb - I think I know what you mean by "stuff" but could that stuff be pure baseball stuff alone?

For example, could a 17 year old who had a 3.0 and overwhelming stuff (e.g., 95mph) be admitted to Stanford?
CD, from everything I know about Stanford admissions, the answer to that would be a resounding no.
Over the years, Stanford has lost many coaches(not in baseball) over similar types of issues.
If that 3.0 came from a top ranked high school, the student was active in a number of functions within the high school and community, and is combined with a number of AP classes and an SAT well over 2000, there might be a chance.
That is why this discussion, before justbb got involved, was so deceptive, in my view.
Anyone who knows baseball knows there are a finite number of left handed pitchers in the 80-83 range who have had success in college and beyond. You also know the vast number either don't get a look, or get a look and don't succeed.
Stanford and the Ivies are looking for what they view as that special applicant with a lot of talent. Normally, they are not looking for one talent in what is an otherwise "average" applicant.
For the pitcher who started this thread, he clearly can pitch at the DIII level with that velocity. Depending on his other pitches, he might be able to pitch at many of the top DIII programs.
When it comes to DI, he clearly has the academics to be considered.
However, 82 mph, without a demonstrated ability to consistently get guys out in high level competition won't get many baseball looks as a recruit.
Last edited by infielddad
Tough times at Stanford.

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Stanford's athletic department is projecting a $5 million loss in revenue over the next three years and is considering cutting staff and eliminating some sports teams, The Associated Press has learned.

The school is expected to decide in the next 30 to 60 days on staff cuts, a Stanford employee familiar with the budget issues told the AP on condition of anonymity because the person is not authorized to discuss the shortfall.

The person also said Tuesday it wasn't clear which teams, if any, would be considered for elimination -- and it likely wouldn't be until next season so at the earliest in the fall.

"That's the last thing they want to consider. They don't want it to affect student-athletes," the person said. "We do have some serious budget problems. We're looking at other ways (to save)."

Stanford has 35 sports teams, 19 for women, 15 for men and one coed squad.

Last year, the university captured its 14th consecutive Division I U.S. Sports Academy Directors' Cup, a recognition presented each year to the best overall programs for each athletic division in the country.

Stanford scored points in 24 of its sports but could only count the maximum 10 each on the men's and women's sides -- earning 12 top-five finishes. The Cardinal won an NCAA title in women's cross country; placed second in women's volleyball, women's basketball, men's gymnastics and men's golf; third in baseball, men's and women's swimming, women's gymnastics and women's water polo; and fifth in women's indoor track and field and women's tennis.

The women's basketball team reached the Final Four for the first time in 11 years and lost in the NCAA title game to two-time defending champion Tennessee.

Copyright 2009 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...rd.ap/#ixzz0PDSCAaIO
The other point about velocity of pitchers is that guys like Kirk Rueter may very well have topped 90 at one time. They may find that the results are better with less velocity and better command and movement. I would think college recruiters like to see a kid hit 90 because they know he can still backoff a little, and improve his command and movement, but still maintain good velocity.
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Stanford admitted "Athletic Admits "to lower score athletes.
Coach Hughes of the Princeton football team admitted all the Princeton teams had low score academic admits.
I think you might be shocked to know the truth. Stanford admitted to using the Bell curve to prop up students marks as well.


I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're saying here.

Yes, at Stanford, if you are an outstanding baseball player...you don't have to be a 4.5, 2200 SAT student. But a 3.0-3.3 or so, I doubt you get in without some really special stuff on your application...other than baseball. (BTW, I wouldn't call a 3.0-3.3 kid a "low score academic admit." Seems kind of demeaning to a reasonably smart kid). You can argue all you want about it, I've just known too many kids with credentials in this range (and yes, top-3 round MLB talent...one last year who was one of the top-10 picks overall), not get in. Impossible? No. But not terribly likely.

Velocities at Stanford (a top-level D1) from last year (my best estimate):

Closer, RHP, 1st round pick - topped out at 96.
Starter, RHP - topped out at 93
Starter, LHP - topped out at 93/94
Starter, RHP - topped out at 90
Reliever/midweek starter, RHP - topped out at 89/90
Middle reliever, RHP - topped out at 88
Middle reliever, RHP - topped out at 88
Middle releiver, RHP - topped out at 93
Middle reliever, RHP - topped out at 95
Middle reliever, LHP - topped out at 88/89
Middle reliever, RHP - topped out at 88/89
Situational LHP - topped out at 86

These are the guys who got the vast bulk of the innings. Don't think I left anyone out. Pretty much decreasing role as you go down the list from top to bottom. I believe the numbers to be very accurate...some were taken from scouts. Read it however you want.
Last edited by justbaseball
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Why don't you convert to the 4.0 scale. The colleges do.


Huh?

quote:
Your kidding right ?
You expect me to believe what you post and you don't believe what is written by authors of these publishings.
Believe what you like as well.


I was referring (and I think infielddad too) to the article about budgetary problems...so, double-huh??
Last edited by justbaseball

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