It's slow right now, so I thought I would ask the question my son asked me last night.
"How long can I hit and pitch, will they let me do that in college?"
So, let's say there is a pitcher who can hurl it pretty well but also hit pretty well, do college teams let them do both?
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Can't speak for college, but if he can really rake they will most likely let him hit in HS. It will all depend on your schools coach, but at least around here the kids that can really hit get to keep hitting. Pitchers who are decent hitters, but not one of the top hitters on the team, usually don't get to hit.
I think Joes87 got the theme right. It depends entirely on how good you are. It's working for this kid:
As long as he can continue to do both effectively.
Just looked up some information on GameChanger for Decatur High School (AL) as I was wanting to see when Tanner Burns had pitched. I read the recap story where it said Tanner had homered during the game. I checked to see how many pitches he threw and found that he had not pitched. Had to go through the individual plays where I finally found that they had him playing SS. He not only hits, apparently he plays SS on his off days - kind of wild for a kid who might skip the college campus altogether.
2017 is a decent hitter when compared to overall team but coaches don't seem to want kids who are pitching to hit the same game. They also prefer to rest pitchers so he probably doesn't see the OF on Saturday if he pitched on Friday (and he's not good enough to DH) so plate appearances are limited. That said, another pitcher on the team is a top 5 hitter and they seem to bend the rules for that kid. 2017 had a few minor nagging issues last year that in part were attributed to hitting (some minor back pain) so hitting was discouraged. I think if he had been 100% last year they would let him hit more often. All that to say - the answer depends on several variables, the first being that he can contribute at the plate and secondarily that his plate appearances do not detract from his pitching or put it at risk. 2017 is a pitcher first, OF second and then a hitter. Other pitcher is really a IF first, hitter second and pitcher third.
A lot goes into that question...I had one player from last years team go D1 as a 2 way player. Mid-Major conference, middle of the road team within the conference. School is 5 hours from home. He was the only two way player listed on the roster. Out of 18 pitchers he had the lowest ERA and WHIP in the fall. Head coach talked to him before Christmas break and he was going to be used in middle relief and as DH...the future was looking bright.
His practice time was double everyone else on the team. He literally had to run to the cafeteria to make meal time...In high school he had a 3.6 GPA, solid test scores, never partied, was determined to play D1 ball and had it all together. First semester grades come out...he failed every class...coach calls and says he's going to have to redshirt now...player quits and is now enrolled in CC taking classes and as of right now has no interest in playing baseball again.
I would consider a lot of things very seriously if my goal is being a two way player. How far away from home am I going (you aren't going to have time to come home maybe 1 or 2 times the first semester, you need some form of support system). Talk to some current players and find out the time requirements for practice. The NCAA has rules, it doesn't mean all schools go by them.
I've got another player from last years team playing 2 ways at one of the best d2 programs in the country. School is 10 minutes from his home. He's leading the team in innings pitched, 7 ab's so far at the plate. He knew going in that the first two years he would be primarily a pitcher. He's very busy but he loves it, he's not overwhelmed at the time requirement for baseball at this school. He's close enough home to get a home cooked meal or see some familiar faces and get away from baseball for a while.
CaCo, is your son 15 now? I'll add my 2 cents but I would caution what and how much you share with him.
First, Cubbie offers some great insight regarding the extra work to the already heavy workload a college athlete has.
Also, I'll run through typical progression of a good HS player...
If at a decent school but not a powerhouse, a lot of players will be able to do both. If at a large/powerhouse HS, many players that are very good hitters and pitchers are forced to focus on one or the other. Then, college. There are TONS of REALLY GOOD players that had outstanding HS careers as both hitter and pitcher. Once recruited, the overwhelming majority (particularly D1, but also the better schools at other tiers) are recruited and/or funneled to one or the other. Yes, there are exceptions.
The reason for my word of caution - I think it's fine to start giving players that age an idea of how hard they have to work to make it to the college level. I'm just not sure it's a good idea, at this point, to dampen excitement about all aspects of the game and plant the idea that he will be "forced" to ONLY pitch or ONLY play a position possibly several years before he has to deal with that. JMO.
Assuming your son is still catching and pitching, I think this is the more likely "decision" issue to come up in the very near future.
Hit and pitch until they tell you not to.
I had a buddy who was recruited Big Ten (when it actually was 10) for his hitting. He became a pitcher and never hit again.
cabbagedad posted:CaCo, is your son 15 now? I'll add my 2 cents but I would caution what and how much you share with him.
First, Cubbie offers some great insight regarding the extra work to the already heavy workload a college athlete has.
Also, I'll run through typical progression of a good HS player...
If at a decent school but not a powerhouse, a lot of players will be able to do both. If at a large/powerhouse HS, many players that are very good hitters and pitchers are forced to focus on one or the other. Then, college. There are TONS of REALLY GOOD players that had outstanding HS careers as both hitter and pitcher. Once recruited, the overwhelming majority (particularly D1, but also the better schools at other tiers) are recruited and/or funneled to one or the other. Yes, there are exceptions.
The reason for my word of caution - I think it's fine to start giving players that age an idea of how hard they have to work to make it to the college level. I'm just not sure it's a good idea, at this point, to dampen excitement about all aspects of the game and plant the idea that he will be "forced" to ONLY pitch or ONLY play a position possibly several years before he has to deal with that. JMO.
Assuming your son is still catching and pitching, I think this is the more likely "decision" issue to come up in the very near future.
He's still 14. JV coach is letting him pitch and hit but this is the third team in a row that LOVED him as a catcher, until they saw him pitch, now he doesn't catch. He's okay with giving up catching. He's starting to embrace the pitching, it's actually been like a freight train since he had a huge velo jump this year so he better start embracing it, but doesn't like the idea of being a PO. He LOVES hitting.
You make a VERY good point about not planting the idea that if he pitches he won't be able to hit. I'll stick with the old line "depends on the program", and he can take it from there.
Roughly half of all college recruits are pitchers. Being a primary or secondary pitcher is very helpful in the recruiting process (presuming the player can actually pitch!)
My sons' college teams have had a total of 2, two way players over five seasons.
At the college level, pretty much every player is all conference, all area, all state, etc. Kids can really hit and kids can really pitch.
My son's experience is that he pitched and hit in HS. He is a little bit different, because he is a LHP, but he bats right. This means that when he hits, his left arm is exposed. First year at JC, they told son he would never play 1B for them, because they didn't want him to have to throw that much when he would be the 1 or the 2 pitcher. They would like him to DH though. He DH'd some, and he had a pretty good year at the plate. Honestly, he would be one of the top 2 or 3 hitters for his JC team, but the PC absolutely does not want him to hit. I believe this stems from a few years back, when a potential 4th round pick was injured on the base paths. (Hurt his non throwing shoulder sliding into second.)
I will add that as others have stated, it is hard to juggle practice for pitching, hitting, and fielding with school. Unfortunately, the pitchers practice separately, so most of the time, you have to stay later or come earlier. With class this is not always possible. I think you have to have commitment form the coaching staff, and if you have a PC that is 100% not on board with his #1 or #2 pitcher hitting, it is probably not going to happen.
It's really too bad, because he is a really good hitter, and they could definitely use him; even if it was only as an occasional DH or PH.
At this point, he has decided he doesn't want to hit anymore, because I think he got tired of swimming upstream. He loves the PC, and I think he doesn't want to upset the apple cart. He also has come to enjoy concentrating on the game that he is pitching, and not having to worry about bad at bats.
When he was being recruited by several D-1's, D-2's, etc., many said they wanted him to hit in the middle of their line-up, and be one of their main pitchers. Looking back, I think they were only telling him what they thought he wanted to hear. I think it is really rare for one of the top of the rotation guys to be one of the main hitters too. When you are 6'4" and a LHP, you are probably going to be a pitcher even if you can hit the ball.
Look up Brendan McKay. Don't know much about smaller colleges but at a Power5, you need to be really good at both to do so.
CaCO3Girl posted:He's still 14. JV coach is letting him pitch and hit but this is the third team in a row that LOVED him as a catcher, until they saw him pitch, now he doesn't catch. He's okay with giving up catching. He's starting to embrace the pitching, it's actually been like a freight train since he had a huge velo jump this year so he better start embracing it, but doesn't like the idea of being a PO. He LOVES hitting.
You make a VERY good point about not planting the idea that if he pitches he won't be able to hit. I'll stick with the old line "depends on the program", and he can take it from there.
Sounds so much like my kid. Primary catcher until his 14U summer. He was supposed to be a catcher, ended up getting some mop up innings on the mound. Did well. Got some save situations. Did well. Moved to starter. Did very well.
The coach happened to be the varsity coach at the school he was going to be attending. He told him flat out, "In my program, you're too good of a pitcher to be a catcher." So, that was that.
The downside was that he rarely gets an at bat, despite being one of - if not the best hitter in the program.
The only time he was able to hit was his JV fall season. The program had a new coach who knew none of the players, so he just put all underclassmen on JV and upperclassmen on V. After the first few days, the JV coach decided to have my son DH when he wasn't pitching. He ended up leading the team in every hitting category that fall.
Come spring - back to being a PO. He still hits in the cage every day. I think he is convinced one day, with the game on the line in the bottom of the 7th, and the winning run on base,that the coach is going to point at him and say, "You've been waiting for years - here's your chance." Personally, I don't seeing it happening - but a kid can dream right?
Very very very unusual to do both at upper levels of college. Smaller lower levels perhaps. But golf said it best. Just do it til they don't let you anymore!
Honestly, he would be one of the top 2 or 3 hitters for his JC team, but the PC absolutely does not want him to hit. I believe this stems from a few years back, when a potential 4th round pick was injured on the base paths. (Hurt his non throwing shoulder sliding into second.)
I have to brag on 2017 here. He is probably the best or second best pinch runner on the team (can read a dirt ball sooner then anyone else and used to get a lot of stolen bases standing up) and really good awareness on the basepaths. He has a tendency to slide head first and actually had a pretty decent 4-5 inch gash in his forearm opened up this past fall sliding into 2B. They let him run the other day but chewed him out when he went into 2B head first (they had told him feet first from now on). Needless to say, his pinch running days are over. He loves BP but I think he knows the pressure is off and he is not expected to produce offensively. As others have said, don't tell your kid when you think he will have to decide - when that time comes he will know it.
CaCO3Girl posted:He's still 14. JV coach is letting him pitch and hit but this is the third team in a row that LOVED him as a catcher, until they saw him pitch, now he doesn't catch. He's okay with giving up catching. He's starting to embrace the pitching, it's actually been like a freight train since he had a huge velo jump this year so he better start embracing it, but doesn't like the idea of being a PO. He LOVES hitting.
You make a VERY good point about not planting the idea that if he pitches he won't be able to hit. I'll stick with the old line "depends on the program", and he can take it from there.
One thing you could suggest is to think about getting good at first base. That gives him two potential hitter spots when he's not pitching (1B and DH).
MidAtlanticDad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:He's still 14. JV coach is letting him pitch and hit but this is the third team in a row that LOVED him as a catcher, until they saw him pitch, now he doesn't catch. He's okay with giving up catching. He's starting to embrace the pitching, it's actually been like a freight train since he had a huge velo jump this year so he better start embracing it, but doesn't like the idea of being a PO. He LOVES hitting.
You make a VERY good point about not planting the idea that if he pitches he won't be able to hit. I'll stick with the old line "depends on the program", and he can take it from there.
One thing you could suggest is to think about getting good at first base. That gives him two potential hitter spots when he's not pitching (1B and DH).
Personally I really like him at first, he is really great at reading the ball coming in and scooping. However, once he became "fast" coaches have put him in the OF rather than on 1B.
CaCO3Girl posted:MidAtlanticDad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:He's still 14. JV coach is letting him pitch and hit but this is the third team in a row that LOVED him as a catcher, until they saw him pitch, now he doesn't catch. He's okay with giving up catching. He's starting to embrace the pitching, it's actually been like a freight train since he had a huge velo jump this year so he better start embracing it, but doesn't like the idea of being a PO. He LOVES hitting.
You make a VERY good point about not planting the idea that if he pitches he won't be able to hit. I'll stick with the old line "depends on the program", and he can take it from there.
One thing you could suggest is to think about getting good at first base. That gives him two potential hitter spots when he's not pitching (1B and DH).
Personally I really like him at first, he is really great at reading the ball coming in and scooping. However, once he became "fast" coaches have put him in the OF rather than on 1B.
I hope they don't put him in the OF the day after he's had a draining pitching appearance. That's why I like 1B for two-way guys, they can play every game.
Semi-related observation. In my neck of Virginia, it is pretty much DOGMA that in HS catchers are not allowed to run the bases when they get on them through hits or walks, etc. Courtesy runner allowed (pitchers and catchers) so they get the hook.
The "problem" is that my 2017 has wheels, especially for a catcher. He legitimately clocked a 6.96 60 at a top D3 camp when someone showed him how to start a 60 properly (dropping from 7.1 to 7.2). In JV he had 19 SBs, the next closest was 12. Perhaps because he's a catcher and people try to steal on him constantly, he likes to return the favor. And he was a pretty savvy runner when allowed to stay on the bases. In HS, he'll leg-out a stand-up double and gets pulled instantly.
Is this a common practice in HS? I get it, 2 outs go ahead and make the switch. Hot and humid and pitches getting bounced. But on a nice day, and if he's got speed, let him fly...
Batty67 posted:Semi-related observation. In my neck of Virginia, it is pretty much DOGMA that in HS catchers are not allowed to run the bases when they get on them through hits or walks, etc. Courtesy runner allowed (pitchers and catchers) so they get the hook.
The "problem" is that my 2017 has wheels, especially for a catcher. He legitimately clocked a 6.96 60 at a top D3 camp when someone showed him how to start a 60 properly (dropping from 7.1 to 7.2). In JV he had 19 SBs, the next closest was 12. Perhaps because he's a catcher and people try to steal on him constantly, he likes to return the favor. And he was a pretty savvy runner when allowed to stay on the bases. In HS, he'll leg-out a stand-up double and gets pulled instantly.
Is this a common practice in HS? I get it, 2 outs go ahead and make the switch. Hot and humid and pitches getting bounced. But on a nice day, and if he's got speed, let him fly...
Catcher is "always" replaced for courtesy runner in my neck of the woods. In addition to the reasons you mentioned, I can't think of a single case where the catcher was a faster runner than the courtesy runner, so it's more about gaining an advantage than dogma here.
A semi-related observation to your semi-related observation... one of my son's 17U teammates was a very good catcher. He started every varsity game in high school from freshman year on, but didn't play travel ball until 17U. The travel team was playing a local tournament and quite a few kids couldn't make it so this kid had to run his onw bases. The poor kid had no idea what he was doing. He didn't know the signs, didn't know how to take a lead, didn't know how to position himself on balls in play. At one point he goes from 2nd to 3rd on a ground ball in front of him. Out at 3rd by a mile. Coach says very calmly, "Son, when was the last time you ran the bases?" The kid pondered the question for moment and says, "12U?"
He's playing D2 baseball now, and I think he took a crash course in base running.
MidAtlanticDad posted:"Son, when was the last time you ran the bases?" The kid pondered the question for moment and says, "12U?"
Lol.
My son has picked up a lot of speed over the last year or so. In the fall the coach decided to use him as a pinch runner on days he wasn't scheduled to pitch.
First time in, the catcher had tripled. My son gets what used to be a safe lead the last time he ran - which was about 13U. Well, he got back picked and was out by at least 5 feet. It turns out varsity catchers throw a whole lot harder than 13U catchers.
Courtesy runners aren't allowed in CIF-SS -- well, you can pinch run once and have the player re-enter the game, but only once. Lots of times the catcher never gets run for -- for example, he gets on early in the game but the coaches don't won't to burn the pinch-running early in the game, and then he doesn't get on late in the game. So catchers have to be prepared to run like everyone else.
We don't have any two-way players on the HS varsity. There was one, though, in the 2016 class, and also one in the 2014 class. It's generally avoided, but ultimately it depends on how good the kid is. High bar to clear.
ShoveIt, up above I beat you to the Brendan McKay reference! LOL www.gocards.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=31
There is actually a John Olerud award, given to the best two-way player in college (which McKay won). Olerud had maybe the greatest season ever for Washington State in 1988. From his Wikipedia page: "In 1988, Olerud hit .464 with 23 HR, 81 RBIs, 108 hits, 204 total bases, and a .876 slugging percentage. As a pitcher, he had an undefeated 15–0 season, and had 113 strikeouts with a 2.49 ERA. He was a consensus All-American as both a first baseman and pitcher "
Last year, he was named the PAC-12 player of the century. Not a bad honor. Like I said, it depends on how good you are.
There are also coaches at higher levels who will not pitchers hit no matter how well they hit because they fear the pitcher gets distracted or hurt.
If you are just average or slightly above for your team most coaches will prefer batting an equally good position player to avoid distraction of the pitcher and also to get another guy playing time. that is important too, there is no guaranteed playing at higher levels but even in mlb it is important to distribute playing time and keep the bench sharp and motivated, if a coach has two equally good players he will always prefer splitting playing time rather than playing one all the time and only if one is clearly better he will play him 100%.
Winning comes first but if you can make two guys happy without making the team weaker you do it.
Some exceptional hitters get to pitch and DH in college. But typically no matter how good of a hitter a pitcher may have been in high school his hitting days are over.
i was recruited as an outfielder and volunteered to pitch when it was needed. I responded to, "Is there a bleeding lefty who can come out of the pen throwing strikes?" Pitching beat sitting on the bench freshman year. I got about 60 at bats. By mid soph year I was done pitching. A pitcher developed who could fill the role I was doing.
Tim Hudson had a decent junior two way season for Auburn.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com...ile.asp?P=tim-hudson
15-2, 2.97
.396-18-95
He hit .160 as a hitting pitcher in MLB.
I love watching this player play (as well as many scouts). Look for him to go early in June. He is a 2-way at a very good D1, so not sure where he will end up at the next level:
http://www.virginiasports.com/..._haseley_917424.html
My kid has been a two way his whole HS career. His jr and now sr year the best pitcher and bat on a team that has spent the last two seasons ranked in the top 10. Has a scholarship at a power five DI as a two way.
The college right now has maybe their best player playing center and in the starting rotation and he is a PG third team all-American. So they have a history of using two ways. I hope they are not misleading him, because he will transfer. He is adamant he doesn't want to be a pitcher. To the point if he were to pick up about 5 mph (sitting about 89/90 right now) he would most likely get drafted, and he's told me, unless it involves a boat load of money I'm going to school and try to make it as a position player. He always says "I want to play baseball, not pitch".
As to the workload in college...the baseball shouldn't be a problem. He's a major gym rat and loves baseball so I could see him looking at the double workload as a plus. More time to spend doing what he loves. The school work worries me. He's an unmotivated student. Gets pretty good grades (3.1 with no real effort). If he'd apply himself would be an A student. That said the team seems to keep a pretty close eye on the kids as to class work so hopefully it will all work out.
SomeBaseballDad posted:My kid has been a two way his whole HS career. His jr and now sr year the best pitcher and bat on a team that has spent the last two seasons ranked in the top 10. Has a scholarship at a power five DI as a two way.
The college right now has maybe their best player playing center and in the starting rotation and he is a PG third team all-American. So they have a history of using two ways. I hope they are not misleading him, because he will transfer. He is adamant he doesn't want to be a pitcher. To the point if he were to pick up about 5 mph (sitting about 89/90 right now) he would most likely get drafted, and he's told me, unless it involves a boat load of money I'm going to school and try to make it as a position player. He always says "I want to play baseball, not pitch".
As to the workload in college...the baseball shouldn't be a problem. He's a major gym rat and loves baseball so I could see him looking at the double workload as a plus. More time to spend doing what he loves. The school work worries me. He's an unmotivated student. Gets pretty good grades (3.1 with no real effort). If he'd apply himself would be an A student. That said the team seems to keep a pretty close eye on the kids as to class work so hopefully it will all work out.
Thanks for sharing that! It's nice to hear of an exception to the rule. Please let me know if he does get to play D1 as a two way.
SomeBaseballDad posted:My kid has been a two way his whole HS career. His jr and now sr year the best pitcher and bat on a team that has spent the last two seasons ranked in the top 10. Has a scholarship at a power five DI as a two way.
The college right now has maybe their best player playing center and in the starting rotation and he is a PG third team all-American. So they have a history of using two ways. I hope they are not misleading him, because he will transfer. He is adamant he doesn't want to be a pitcher. To the point if he were to pick up about 5 mph (sitting about 89/90 right now) he would most likely get drafted, and he's told me, unless it involves a boat load of money I'm going to school and try to make it as a position player. He always says "I want to play baseball, not pitch".
As to the workload in college...the baseball shouldn't be a problem. He's a major gym rat and loves baseball so I could see him looking at the double workload as a plus. More time to spend doing what he loves. The school work worries me. He's an unmotivated student. Gets pretty good grades (3.1 with no real effort). If he'd apply himself would be an A student. That said the team seems to keep a pretty close eye on the kids as to class work so hopefully it will all work out.
There's not a lot of free time with a normal workload. Add in studying and my son missed a lot of sleep.
RJM posted:SomeBaseballDad postedThere's not a lot of free time with a normal workload. Add in studying and my son missed a lot of sleep.
Understood. But like I said, there's a kid on the college team he's signed with who is in the starting rotation, and a weekend pitcher, and playing center field, so it can be done. Can my son do it? IDK, I can assure you I have my concerns.
I do know this, the kid throws four pitches. FB (two and four seam), CB, CU, and slider. The only thing he doesn't do is throw 92+. But then he puts no real effort into being a pitcher.
So.... when a few years ago at a well attended (100+ teams) tournament where he was 13/21 w/ 7 HR's, 25 rbi's, and 12 runs scored, and the last three years at HS where he's hit over.400 and for most of the year last year lead the state in HR's, ending with nine, coaches have said he'll end up a pitcher. So we will see I guess.
My son would tell you "over my dead body".
MidAtlanticDad posted:Batty67 posted:Semi-related observation. In my neck of Virginia, it is pretty much DOGMA that in HS catchers are not allowed to run the bases when they get on them through hits or walks, etc. Courtesy runner allowed (pitchers and catchers) so they get the hook.
The "problem" is that my 2017 has wheels, especially for a catcher. He legitimately clocked a 6.96 60 at a top D3 camp when someone showed him how to start a 60 properly (dropping from 7.1 to 7.2). In JV he had 19 SBs, the next closest was 12. Perhaps because he's a catcher and people try to steal on him constantly, he likes to return the favor. And he was a pretty savvy runner when allowed to stay on the bases. In HS, he'll leg-out a stand-up double and gets pulled instantly.
Is this a common practice in HS? I get it, 2 outs go ahead and make the switch. Hot and humid and pitches getting bounced. But on a nice day, and if he's got speed, let him fly...
Catcher is "always" replaced for courtesy runner in my neck of the woods. In addition to the reasons you mentioned, I can't think of a single case where the catcher was a faster runner than the courtesy runner, so it's more about gaining an advantage than dogma here.
A semi-related observation to your semi-related observation... one of my son's 17U teammates was a very good catcher. He started every varsity game in high school from freshman year on, but didn't play travel ball until 17U. The travel team was playing a local tournament and quite a few kids couldn't make it so this kid had to run his onw bases. The poor kid had no idea what he was doing. He didn't know the signs, didn't know how to take a lead, didn't know how to position himself on balls in play. At one point he goes from 2nd to 3rd on a ground ball in front of him. Out at 3rd by a mile. Coach says very calmly, "Son, when was the last time you ran the bases?" The kid pondered the question for moment and says, "12U?"
He's playing D2 baseball now, and I think he took a crash course in base running.
Thanks. I'll point-out if a catcher is "always replaced"--that's dogma. Fair point about catchers often being inexperienced base runners. But, as I mentioned, my 2017 son was the far and away SB leader when he was allowed to run bases in JV.
RJM posted:SomeBaseballDad posted:My kid has been a two way his whole HS career. His jr and now sr year the best pitcher and bat on a team that has spent the last two seasons ranked in the top 10. Has a scholarship at a power five DI as a two way.
The college right now has maybe their best player playing center and in the starting rotation and he is a PG third team all-American. So they have a history of using two ways. I hope they are not misleading him, because he will transfer. He is adamant he doesn't want to be a pitcher. To the point if he were to pick up about 5 mph (sitting about 89/90 right now) he would most likely get drafted, and he's told me, unless it involves a boat load of money I'm going to school and try to make it as a position player. He always says "I want to play baseball, not pitch".
As to the workload in college...the baseball shouldn't be a problem. He's a major gym rat and loves baseball so I could see him looking at the double workload as a plus. More time to spend doing what he loves. The school work worries me. He's an unmotivated student. Gets pretty good grades (3.1 with no real effort). If he'd apply himself would be an A student. That said the team seems to keep a pretty close eye on the kids as to class work so hopefully it will all work out.
There's not a lot of free time with a normal workload. Add in studying and my son missed a lot of sleep.
I think a lot of folks do not understand the time commitment a college athlete has to make. In general for a normal athlete (of just about any sport) its about 40 hours.
Here is my schedule when I ran track in college back in the 80's. Practice - 5 days a week, 3 hours. Weight room. 5 days a week 1 to 2 hours. Speciality practice (i was a high jumper/ part time decathlete) 3 days a week 2 hours. Add that up and you are at 37.5 hours. Now add in the competition time. A track meet lasts about 8 hours or so. So we are at 45.5 hours. This does not include any travel time or overnight trips. Figure 1 to 4 hours on a bus if we were not staying over night, an entire weekend blown if we are staying the weekend.
Now add in classroom time. If your lucky you work your schedule down to 12 hours during the season. But that means you are attending 18 to 20 hours of class during the off season. Lets use 15 hours as your class average. In general you are expected to put in 2 hours of outside work for every hour in the classroom. So you are have a school commitment of 45 hours as well. Add them together and you are committed for about 90 hours of activities, not including travel time.
This does not include any mandatory team meetings, athletic department seminar/lectures/guest speakers/etc (ie drug rule lectures, guest speakers on what it means to be a college athlete, etc). In addition many schools have mandatory study tables for athletes, at least for the first year.
Yes it is possible to study while on the team bus or while staying in a hotel, but its also very difficult. There is a lot going on around you. The bus is normally noisy on the way to a competition, its a mix of noisy and quiet on the way back. Some folks are so depleted they fall asleep, others are still so jacked up that they are singing, laughing and having a good time. Your road roomie may not be interested in studying so they are moving around the room or are in an out. There is always something going on while on the road. Could be a card game or it could be a group of folks going to walk around the area, or going to see a movie. While you know school is important you also want to be part of the team and hang out some.
To me it can be best summed up by: do you have a "pitcher who can hit" or a "hitter who can pitch." The former likely is a PO (probably the #1,#2, #3 pitcher). Son's college team has two sophomores- one who is DH/1B mid relief submariner power hitter. The second is also a middle of the line-up hitter, #4 starter. I would classify both as "hitters who can pitch." A catcher/pitcher in college is likely nonexistent..too much wear on arm.
Son of a very good friend plays at a D1, and is doing both.
If you're a D1 coach, and you've got a recruit that throws high 80s-low 90s as a HS pitcher, and is also a position player who plays excellent defense and consistently rocks the ball, you keep an open mind.
joes87 posted:RJM posted:SomeBaseballDad posted:My kid has been a two way his whole HS career. His jr and now sr year the best pitcher and bat on a team that has spent the last two seasons ranked in the top 10. Has a scholarship at a power five DI as a two way.
The college right now has maybe their best player playing center and in the starting rotation and he is a PG third team all-American. So they have a history of using two ways. I hope they are not misleading him, because he will transfer. He is adamant he doesn't want to be a pitcher. To the point if he were to pick up about 5 mph (sitting about 89/90 right now) he would most likely get drafted, and he's told me, unless it involves a boat load of money I'm going to school and try to make it as a position player. He always says "I want to play baseball, not pitch".
As to the workload in college...the baseball shouldn't be a problem. He's a major gym rat and loves baseball so I could see him looking at the double workload as a plus. More time to spend doing what he loves. The school work worries me. He's an unmotivated student. Gets pretty good grades (3.1 with no real effort). If he'd apply himself would be an A student. That said the team seems to keep a pretty close eye on the kids as to class work so hopefully it will all work out.
There's not a lot of free time with a normal workload. Add in studying and my son missed a lot of sleep.
I think a lot of folks do not understand the time commitment a college athlete has to make. In general for a normal athlete (of just about any sport) its about 40 hours.
Here is my schedule when I ran track in college back in the 80's. Practice - 5 days a week, 3 hours. Weight room. 5 days a week 1 to 2 hours. Speciality practice (i was a high jumper/ part time decathlete) 3 days a week 2 hours. Add that up and you are at 37.5 hours. Now add in the competition time. A track meet lasts about 8 hours or so. So we are at 45.5 hours. This does not include any travel time or overnight trips. Figure 1 to 4 hours on a bus if we were not staying over night, an entire weekend blown if we are staying the weekend.
Now add in classroom time. If your lucky you work your schedule down to 12 hours during the season. But that means you are attending 18 to 20 hours of class during the off season. Lets use 15 hours as your class average. In general you are expected to put in 2 hours of outside work for every hour in the classroom. So you are have a school commitment of 45 hours as well. Add them together and you are committed for about 90 hours of activities, not including travel time.
This does not include any mandatory team meetings, athletic department seminar/lectures/guest speakers/etc (ie drug rule lectures, guest speakers on what it means to be a college athlete, etc). In addition many schools have mandatory study tables for athletes, at least for the first year.
Yes it is possible to study while on the team bus or while staying in a hotel, but its also very difficult. There is a lot going on around you. The bus is normally noisy on the way to a competition, its a mix of noisy and quiet on the way back. Some folks are so depleted they fall asleep, others are still so jacked up that they are singing, laughing and having a good time. Your road roomie may not be interested in studying so they are moving around the room or are in an out. There is always something going on while on the road. Could be a card game or it could be a group of folks going to walk around the area, or going to see a movie. While you know school is important you also want to be part of the team and hang out some.
Son's JC has mandatory Sunday Night Study Hall for the whole Team, with optional Tuesday Night, if you are a 3.5 + Student.
SomeBaseballDad posted:RJM posted:SomeBaseballDad postedThere's not a lot of free time with a normal workload. Add in studying and my son missed a lot of sleep.
Understood. But like I said, there's a kid on the college team he's signed with who is in the starting rotation, and a weekend pitcher, and playing center field, so it can be done. Can my son do it? IDK, I can assure you I have my concerns.
I do know this, the kid throws four pitches. FB (two and four seam), CB, CU, and slider. The only thing he doesn't do is throw 92+. But then he puts no real effort into being a pitcher.
So.... when a few years ago at a well attended (100+ teams) tournament where he was 13/21 w/ 7 HR's, 25 rbi's, and 12 runs scored, and the last three years at HS where he's hit over.400 and for most of the year last year lead the state in HR's, ending with nine, coaches have said he'll end up a pitcher. So we will see I guess.
My son would tell you "over my dead body".
My son threw five innings of two hit shutout ball against one of the top travel teams in the country. He was more concerned after the game baseball people would think he was a pitcher than happpy about the results. He decided he would tell people he was an outfielder with an arm.
RJM postedMy son threw five innings of two hit shutout ball against one of the top travel teams in the country. He was more concerned after the game baseball people would think he was a pitcher than happpy about the results. He decided he would tell people he was an outfielder with an arm.
To be clear the kid doesn't dislike pitching. He's a competitor and enjoys being on the mound. It's when the thought of PO comes up he recoils. In fact he had two chances to go to Jupiter last year and turned them both down because it was as a pitcher only.
Jake Mangum, who I think led the SEC in hitting last year, got the save for MSU today.
hshuler posted:Jake Mangum, who I think led the SEC in hitting last year, got the save for MSU today.
Mitch Moreland was also good at both. He was hitting 450 foot bombs and hitting 95+ though. Red Sox drafted a guy like that too last year (forgot the name).
I think the best chance does have a power hitter at a non premium position who throws gas but does not have enough control to start. If he was a good starter they might still make him a PO but if he is a guy who can throw gas for an inning and hit some bombs they might do it.
My son, who graduated college in 2014, pitch and hit all 4 years at an Atlantic 10 school. It does go on, but it depends on the coach. Funny thing was he was thought of as a better pitcher coming in, but an arm injury changed that and he finished his career as a better hitter.
On the college level, it is very difficult from a time standpoint to do both.
CaCo3Girl,
Birdman14's son was a unicorn (an exception) that earned a two-way player opportunity at the D1 level. Very, very few are given the opportunity and can hold onto that opportunity. His son did, and was very good at it.
High school is a different matter entirely. The best hitters hit regardless of position. Accomodations are made for primary pitchers that can hit in high school. My oldest son played 1st or DH as they needed his bat. He was the 3 or 4 hitter his junior and senior high school years and was an all district DH. He did not bat once in college. His head coach had 17-18 position players that (presumably) hit better than my son and practiced hitting every day.
Good luck!
fenwaysouth posted:CaCo3Girl,
Birdman14's son was a unicorn (an exception) that earned a two-way player opportunity at the D1 level. Very, very few are given the opportunity and can hold onto that opportunity. His son did, and was very good at it.
High school is a different matter entirely. The best hitters hit regardless of position. Accomodations are made for primary pitchers that can hit in high school. My oldest son played 1st or DH as they needed his bat. He was the 3 or 4 hitter his junior and senior high school years and was an all district DH. He did not bat once in college. His head coach had 17-18 position players that (presumably) hit better than my son and practiced hitting every day.
Good luck!
fenway,
I hope all is going well! Sorry I don't get around here as much lately.
While my son's situation might have been a "unicorn," most of the middle to lesser D1 conferences have a player or 2 doing what my son did, or at the very least pitching and DHing (you might even say the college DH rule is somewhat promoting this strategy). My son still did all the hitting and pitching required, he just did some of it on his own time. This was much easier in his first 3 years when he was a relief pitcher only. When he was a weekend starter, it was pretty brutal.
I also remember that a team in the conference your son played in, had their top pitcher doing the same thing. He is currently playing AAA with the Yankees organization, as a hitter.
My point is that on my son's team there were not 17 or 18 other guys that hit better than him. And while it is unusually, it does occur with certain coaches who are open to it. I wouldn't want to discourage a player from pursuing this if the opportunity presented itself and it was what he wanted to do.
Would I recommend having my son do it again? That is a completely different question...
There are about 1,000 D1 baseball players each season. To list the handful who pitch and hit is anecdotal. If there are fifty players each year doing both it's still just 5% of the players. Yes, it's possible. But it's unlikely. In high school it's not unusual for the best player to be the best player and best pitcher.
Chances are no one remembers Bert Roberge unless they're an older Expos or Astros fan. He pitched for both teams. He pitched for UMaine when they went to the CWS in the 70's. I played college summer ball with him. Back in high school and Legion he was an incredibly dangerous hitter. He got to college and never swung a bat again. He didn't even DH or pinch hit in college summer ball. He was focused on pitching. Being young at the time I was shocked an alledgedly intelligent and successful (college) coach would take the bat out of the hands of such a good hitter.
On the flip side a Legion teammate who threw in the low 90's (back in the 70's) never pitched once he got to college. He was that dominating of a hitter. He got to AAA quickly before a couple of injuries did him in.
This is kind of Rod Serlingish. Imagine the concept of time and space. If the Yankees would have added you to a trade for Rod Carew you would have been starting for the Twins the following June night. Instead you step in a pothole getting out of your car at the airport the day of your September call up. You break your ankle and start your physical decline.
RJM posted:There are about 1,000 D1 baseball players each season. To list the handful who pitch and hit is anecdotal. If there are fifty players each year doing both it's still must 5% of the players. Yes, it's possible. But it's unlikely. In high school it's not unusual for the best player to be the best player and best pitcher.
Chances are no one remembers Bert Roberge unless they're an older Expos or Astros fan. He pitched for both teams. He pitched for UMaine when they went to the CWS in the 70's. I played college summer ball with him. Back in high school and Legion he was an incredibly dangerous hitter. He got to college and never swung a bat again. He didn't even DH or pinch hit in college summer ball. He was focused on pitching. Being young at the time I was shocked an alledgedly intelligent and successful (college) coach would take the bat out of the hands of such a good hitter.
On the flip side a Legion teammate who threw in the low 90's (back in the 70's) never pitched once he got to college. He was that dominating of a hitter. He got to AAA quickly before a couple of injuries did him in.
This is kind of Rod Serlingish. Imagine the concept of time and space. If the Yankees would have added you to a trade for Rod Carew you would have been starting for the Twins the following June night. Instead you step in a pothole getting out of your car at the airport the day of your September call up. You break your ankle and start your physical decline.
Your point about anecdotes is spot on. But with 298 D1 baseball programs, aren't there about 10,000 each year? (it makes your point even more so -- it's probably like 1% that are two-way players)
Watching Nebraska play lately I noticed besides Jake Meyers they have started using Luis Alvarado and Ben Miller to pitch. Both are upperclassmen who have been position players who haven't pitched before. So I guess one would assume they are either later bloomers or the pitching staff isn't coming along as anticipated? Although Alvarado is getting into the 90's.
I guess I wouldn't make a very good collage coach, but if I had a kid who pitched and played the field equally well and at a high level I don't believe I'd discourage him by making the workload untenable. I mean scholarship wise it seems the idea situation.
SomeBaseballDad posted:Watching Nebraska play lately ....
Travel Ball teammate and HS Rival of my son plays for Nebraska. Made the team as a walk-on. Don't think he's gotten much PT so-far.
2019Dad posted:I think Joes87 got the theme right. It depends entirely on how good you are. It's working for this kid:
Right now, Brendan McKay's batting average (.548) is higher than his ERA (.500). 
2019Dad posted:I think Joes87 got the theme right. It depends entirely on how good you are. It's working for this kid:
How good you are is nice, but saying that "It depends entirely on how good you are.", is simply not the case. As some have mentioned, a lot of coaches don't care how good you can hit, if you are one of their "dudes" on the mound. Pitchers are so valuable that they cannot afford to lose their top guys to an injury at the plate, or on the base paths.
rynoattack posted:2019Dad posted:I think Joes87 got the theme right. It depends entirely on how good you are. It's working for this kid:
How good you are is nice, but saying that "It depends entirely on how good you are.", is simply not the case. As some have mentioned, a lot of coaches don't care how good you can hit, if you are one of their "dudes" on the mound. Pitchers are so valuable that they cannot afford to lose their top guys to an injury at the plate, or on the base paths.
If there are coaches who never make an exception -- every single pitcher is a P.O., no matter what -- then I agree with you. If the coach sometimes makes exceptions (even if only rarely), then it does in fact depend on how good you are. At my son's HS every single pitcher on varsity this year is a P.O. However, there was a two-way player in the class of 2016, and also one in the class of 2014, so it's possible -- and if it's possible, then it depends on how good you are.
A former teammate of my son's is a position player at a Pac12 school, and he also is used as an occasional middle reliever. One of the starting pitchers there DH's when not pitching. Another teammate of my son plays CF for a JC and is committed to a D1 for next year. He is also his team's closer.
It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen. Not sure I would want that to happen at that level though. Keeping your swing and your glove in shape and also getting in your pitching work, not to mention academics - that's a lot to handle.
So to go back to the original question - how long can he continue to hit and pitch? You (the OP) should have a pretty good idea of what goes on at your school on varsity. Does the coach have players doing both? It was soph year for our 2016 where they started transitioning him to PO for our HS. He started the pre-season with varsity as a PO, went back down to JV to pitch and play infield, batted third at the start of the season. Gradually they converted him to PO, it started by DHing for him when he pitched and ended with him on varsity as a PO for the sectionals. And then wham, he was a PO the rest of his HS career. We had only 1 player who did both on varsity the last two years. It's just the way our varsity coach prefers to do it.
Yes MK I know the varsity program at the high school lets some pitchers hit. My question was for college.
I told my son it depends on the college. His reply was "well they have to let SOME pitchers hit, half the MLB pitchers hit, they can't all stop hitting"....hehehe he's a fairly logical kid.
Not to be a wise guy but there are about 300 D1 teams. At about 30 players per team, that makes the number of D1 players closer to 10,000.
To answer the question posed, if a guy can hit/pitch like Tim Hudson, Micah Owings, or Sean Doolittle, for example, did in college - they can continue in both roles all through college and sometimes on into the pros. Rick Ankiel was a pitcher who became a pretty good hitter after his pitching ended in the pros.
RJM posted:There are about 1,000 D1 baseball players each season. To list the handful who pitch and hit is anecdotal. If there are fifty players each year doing both it's still just 5% of the players. Yes, it's possible. But it's unlikely. In high school it's not unusual for the best player to be the best player and best pitcher.
Chances are no one remembers Bert Roberge unless they're an older Expos or Astros fan. He pitched for both teams. He pitched for UMaine when they went to the CWS in the 70's. I played college summer ball with him. Back in high school and Legion he was an incredibly dangerous hitter. He got to college and never swung a bat again. He didn't even DH or pinch hit in college summer ball. He was focused on pitching. Being young at the time I was shocked an alledgedly intelligent and successful (college) coach would take the bat out of the hands of such a good hitter.
On the flip side a Legion teammate who threw in the low 90's (back in the 70's) never pitched once he got to college. He was that dominating of a hitter. He got to AAA quickly before a couple of injuries did him in.
This is kind of Rod Serlingish. Imagine the concept of time and space. If the Yankees would have added you to a trade for Rod Carew you would have been starting for the Twins the following June night. Instead you step in a pothole getting out of your car at the airport the day of your September call up. You break your ankle and start your physical decline.
The injury aspect is important too. Shohei otani wants to hit when he gets allowed to play on mlb. He can really hit, he does strike out but he has huge pop and last year had a 1000 ops in like 350 at bats in Japan.
Japan is considered about AA to AAA level and anyone who posts a 1000 ops at AA in his age 21 season is a serious hitting prospect.
So otanI could probably be at least an mlb average hitter as a part time hitter but as a team giving him 350m for 12 years are you really going to risk an injury to a once in a generation talent level pitcher to get about league average bat production? A healthy ace pitcher is worth much more than an average bat if you are a coach you prefer your minimum salary average hitter getting hurt running the bases over your ace.
I think eventually even otani will need to decide. He should probably chose pitching, I think as an out fielder he will be OK, play below average defense with a 260 average due to a lot of Ks and 25 to 30 bombs which is a solid player but as a pitcher he could be syndergaard or kershaw.
Otani wont be deciding. He will be told. The MLB interest is as a pitcher. He won't be playing a position or EEven players like Bumgarner don't DH. At best they infrequently PH.
What does happen in the minors when pitchers have to hit is L/R and R/L pitchers are turned around hitting wise. A team would rather have a .200 L/R pitcher bat left all the time and hit .090 rather than risk getting drilled on his throwing arm by a pitch.
They failed to get Lincecum to turn around.
CaCO3Girl posted:I told my son it depends on the college. His reply was "well they have to let SOME pitchers hit, half the MLB pitchers hit, they can't all stop hitting"....hehehe he's a fairly logical kid.
Just to keep your boy on his toes... more than half of the NL pitchers are relievers, and those guys very rarely get to hit. Also, NL teams only put pitchers up there because they have to. They understand that most pitchers can't hit major league pitching. They could even pick up a pitcher via trade or free agency who hasn't picked up a bat since high school. So, the NL pitching thing doesn't really factor into whether or not you hit in college.
HST, I wouldn't do or say anything to discourage him. Let him keep working hard at both.
JCG posted:They failed to get Lincecum to turn around.
There are always going to be exceptions. Most get turned around. What they hit doesn't have value versus their ability to take the mound.
I don't know of any two way college players in WI/IL/MN even among the D3's and JUCO's. Doesn't mean there aren't any, I just don't know of any
in high school around here there are plenty of them.
i will say that high schools in this area don't necessarily bat their 9 best hitters. I have seen plenty of glove first SS and 2B's who have no shot at college ball and barely hit .200 in high school, starting over the kids who can hit but are defensive liabilities. Those good hitting stone glove kids better be the best in their school among those types of players because there is only one DH
Miracles do happen. My oldest is a weekend starter on his college team. Went deep into yesterday's game. He's DHing today. Hasn't batted in a game since HS! 4+ years ago. Squaring it up surprisingly!
He's the only 2 way player on his team...if you could call him that. Opposing pitcher is batting and playing 1B today. He's legitimately a 2 way guy and the only one on their team.
It's funny that I've seen Hail State, Florida and Tennessee use two-way players this year.
Does anyone think that only two players drafted in the top ten rounds not signing has something to do with it? Maybe teams don't have the normal pitching depth that they're accustomed to?
P.S. Vandy is bringing in the DH to pitch now.
And now for the Pitcher-Catcher-Outfielder role at the MLB level:
