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"Actually your argument would support the opinion that minor leaguers are OVERPAID! Since the supply far outruns demand."

No, the supply does not outrun the demand. There is no limit to the number of amateurs an organization may sign. The organizations don't sign more because the organizations don't view the available supply as matching up to the skills required (you can debate whether the organizations experts don't know their jobs and misjudge some amateurs potential - but that is a case by case and not a broad proposition).

There are millions of people who are willing to work as top level coders for six figures; there are several thousand who actually have the necessary skills. When we speak about supply, we are speaking implicitly about those that industry deems as its available supply (in other words, to be considered "supply" you need to first have the needed skills).

"Even if it's doing $80 an hour lessons at the local academy."

Yes, lessons are expensive and, yes, I was one of those obsessed parents. But, I hope my kid is earning more than a part-time $80/hr when he is in his peak earning years. And a note to parents paying for lessons: just because you were a pro player DOES NOT make you able to teach. Make sure you are getting an instructor who knows and understands their trade.

There is definitely a difference in potential in players - and that is often expressed by the round a player was chosen (recognizing that economics and other factors may also be present). No question that the players drafted in top rounds have been tagged as having greater potential or a higher ceiling, but to blithely conclude that teams draft "companion ponies" is result oriented reasoning.  Once in proball, all players have the chance to develop their tools, and while top picks generally are given more chances to fail, every player has a legit shot.  Organizations WANT every player to move up - if not in that organization then as part of a trade to another team. 

Yes, players in the low minors are replaceable - BY OTHER MILB PLAYERS (and once a year by the top college and HS players - though mostly in SS and low A). If it is implied that an organization could throw a dart at a list of all college players and replace a current player, I think that is not correct. If that replacement player was rated as having the potential, that player would already be signed.

Players are indeed fungible - but only with other players who have been rated by experts within that organization as having MLB potential (which most will never each, btw). The players are not fungible with players who WANT (or hope) to play - a player's hopes, wishes, dreams, or prayers are irrelevant.

I don't believe life in fundamentally unfair. By preparation - in baseball by working hard, in academics by working hard, in a job by working hard - each can achieve his potential. Not everyone has the same potential, but each can work towards achieving his potential. I have found that generally, life does depend to a certain degree on timing, but I have also found that in many circumstances I can be prepared to be ready when that time comes through hard work and planning. (I am a half full glass type.)

All this having been said, the minors aren't going to harm a  college kids maturity and growth into his ultimate self (I don't feel the same about HS kids) regardless of the salary; and I believe the opposite is true; that any kid who has the chance will come out better prepared for life.

I just wonder what is so unique about the INDUSTRY of baseball which makes it so immune to concerns about the conditions its employees labor under?

Perhaps I should start a new thread regarding the low salaries of high school coaches!  Ever break that down as an hourly rate of pay?  Let's say you make $5000 as a head basketball coach. How many hours do you think that guy puts in for the 5k?  Well let's just start with 25 games. Gonna be at your JV game not just show up for varsity right?  It's a four or five hour night. Let's go low and say four. That's 100 hours. Now there is the bus ride there and back for road games. Add another 15 hours. 4 practices a week at 2 1/2 hours is 10 hours a week. Say 16 weeks. That's 160. Ever scout?  You betcha. Say even one game. Week, travel time and game 3 hours. 45 hours. Youth program?  Do you run a summer league?  Summer league games for sure. Open gyms?  Pre season conditioning?  In season weight program? Watching video?  Keeping stats?  Talking to local media, maybe doing the local cable show once or twice a season?  Dare I say it...  recruiting?  Meetings with disgruntled parents...  no i am not going to finish the calculations. It's well under minimum wage.  Why did we do it?  For the love of the game!  It's an honor to lead these kids program.  I never regretted a second of it. Cost many of us our marriages. A basketball coach who has the drive is seldom home.  Spring would be the one exception - then I coached baseball!  

Goin_yard posted:
Go44dad posted:

Because it is a game, and they are players, not laborers.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.  MILB and MLB is a BUSINESS.

Well then make a good business decision. Contemplate the odds and probably come to the decision not to sign!  Go make money someplace else. 

2020dad posted:
Goin_yard posted:
Go44dad posted:

Because it is a game, and they are players, not laborers.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.  MILB and MLB is a BUSINESS.

Well then make a good business decision. Contemplate the odds and probably come to the decision not to sign!  Go make money someplace else. 

Well, unless you get a$1.7M bonus or more.  B/C that is the break even number!

Go44dad posted:
2020dad posted:
Goin_yard posted:
Go44dad posted:

Because it is a game, and they are players, not laborers.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.  MILB and MLB is a BUSINESS.

Well then make a good business decision. Contemplate the odds and probably come to the decision not to sign!  Go make money someplace else. 

Well, unless you get a$1.7M bonus or more.  B/C that is the break even number!

Yes godad not a penny under that!!

"How does an unpaid internship differ from MILB?"

The organizations themselves don't view these as internships. Players are contractually covered by workers comp, get health insurance, have multi-year contracts with year long obligations, and upon release receive unemployment benefits.

Under Federal Law:

"The following six criteria must be applied when making this determination:
The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.
If all of the factors listed above are met, an employment relationship does not exist under the FLSA, and the Act’s minimum wage and overtime provisions do not apply to the intern. This exclusion from the definition of employment is necessarily quite narrow because the FLSA’s definition of “employ” is very broad. . . .

Similar To An Education Environment And The Primary Beneficiary Of The Activity
In general, the more an internship program is structured around a classroom or academic experience as opposed to the employer’s actual operations, the more likely the internship will be viewed as an extension of the individual’s educational experience (this often occurs where a college or university exercises oversight over the internship program and provides educational credit). The more the internship provides the individual with skills that can be used in multiple employment settings, as opposed to skills particular to one employer’s operation, the more likely the intern would be viewed as receiving training. Under these circumstances the intern does not perform the routine work of the business on a regular and recurring basis, and the business is not dependent upon the work of the intern. On the other hand, if the interns are engaged in the operations of the employer or are performing productive work (for example, filing, performing other clerical work, or assisting customers), then the fact that they may be receiving some benefits in the form of a new skill or improved work habits will not exclude them from the FLSA’s minimum wage and overtime requirements because the employer benefits from the interns’ work."

https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm

 

2020dad posted:

Perhaps I should start a new thread regarding the low salaries of high school coaches!  Ever break that down as an hourly rate of pay?  Let's say you make $5000 as a head basketball coach. How many hours do you think that guy puts in for the 5k?  Well let's just start with 25 games. Gonna be at your JV game not just show up for varsity right?  It's a four or five hour night. Let's go low and say four. That's 100 hours. Now there is the bus ride there and back for road games. Add another 15 hours. 4 practices a week at 2 1/2 hours is 10 hours a week. Say 16 weeks. That's 160. Ever scout?  You betcha. Say even one game. Week, travel time and game 3 hours. 45 hours. Youth program?  Do you run a summer league?  Summer league games for sure. Open gyms?  Pre season conditioning?  In season weight program? Watching video?  Keeping stats?  Talking to local media, maybe doing the local cable show once or twice a season?  Dare I say it...  recruiting?  Meetings with disgruntled parents...  no i am not going to finish the calculations. It's well under minimum wage.  Why did we do it?  For the love of the game!  It's an honor to lead these kids program.  I never regretted a second of it. Cost many of us our marriages. A basketball coach who has the drive is seldom home.  Spring would be the one exception - then I coached baseball!  

In our district coaches's pay (and other extrcaricular pay) is part of the Union contract.  

Problem really is the MLB players union doesn't much care about the minor league playes.  Thus, they get what they get.  In a way the milb is a "fraud."  Most will not make it - but players do it, chasing some dream.  Certainly reasonable to pressure clubs to look at the rules.  

Golfman25 posted:
2020dad posted:

Perhaps I should start a new thread regarding the low salaries of high school coaches!  Ever break that down as an hourly rate of pay?  Let's say you make $5000 as a head basketball coach. How many hours do you think that guy puts in for the 5k?  Well let's just start with 25 games. Gonna be at your JV game not just show up for varsity right?  It's a four or five hour night. Let's go low and say four. That's 100 hours. Now there is the bus ride there and back for road games. Add another 15 hours. 4 practices a week at 2 1/2 hours is 10 hours a week. Say 16 weeks. That's 160. Ever scout?  You betcha. Say even one game. Week, travel time and game 3 hours. 45 hours. Youth program?  Do you run a summer league?  Summer league games for sure. Open gyms?  Pre season conditioning?  In season weight program? Watching video?  Keeping stats?  Talking to local media, maybe doing the local cable show once or twice a season?  Dare I say it...  recruiting?  Meetings with disgruntled parents...  no i am not going to finish the calculations. It's well under minimum wage.  Why did we do it?  For the love of the game!  It's an honor to lead these kids program.  I never regretted a second of it. Cost many of us our marriages. A basketball coach who has the drive is seldom home.  Spring would be the one exception - then I coached baseball!  

In our district coaches's pay (and other extrcaricular pay) is part of the Union contract.  

Problem really is the MLB players union doesn't much care about the minor league playes.  Thus, they get what they get.  In a way the milb is a "fraud."  Most will not make it - but players do it, chasing some dream.  Certainly reasonable to pressure clubs to look at the rules.  

I agree with that.  I hope pay comes up in MiLB.

84% of American born MLBers come from the top ten rounds of the draft. So which MiLBers do you think MLB organizations are concerned about? 

A 10th round pick gets about a 150K bonus. He has about 100K after taxes. He should be able to manage off 100K, plus interest, plus salary for five years. MLB probably figures players drafted after the 10th round can pound sand or survive. Given how many players just want a chance (A ball roster fillers) regardless of round selected or how long the odds of making it, MLB doesn't have a problem. 

The current system works for MLB. The approach is a little harsh. But it's what it is.

Golfman25 posted:
2020dad posted:

Perhaps I should start a new thread regarding the low salaries of high school coaches!  Ever break that down as an hourly rate of pay?  Let's say you make $5000 as a head basketball coach. How many hours do you think that guy puts in for the 5k?  Well let's just start with 25 games. Gonna be at your JV game not just show up for varsity right?  It's a four or five hour night. Let's go low and say four. That's 100 hours. Now there is the bus ride there and back for road games. Add another 15 hours. 4 practices a week at 2 1/2 hours is 10 hours a week. Say 16 weeks. That's 160. Ever scout?  You betcha. Say even one game. Week, travel time and game 3 hours. 45 hours. Youth program?  Do you run a summer league?  Summer league games for sure. Open gyms?  Pre season conditioning?  In season weight program? Watching video?  Keeping stats?  Talking to local media, maybe doing the local cable show once or twice a season?  Dare I say it...  recruiting?  Meetings with disgruntled parents...  no i am not going to finish the calculations. It's well under minimum wage.  Why did we do it?  For the love of the game!  It's an honor to lead these kids program.  I never regretted a second of it. Cost many of us our marriages. A basketball coach who has the drive is seldom home.  Spring would be the one exception - then I coached baseball!  

In our district coaches's pay (and other extrcaricular pay) is part of the Union contract.  

Problem really is the MLB players union doesn't much care about the minor league playes.  Thus, they get what they get.  In a way the milb is a "fraud."  Most will not make it - but players do it, chasing some dream.  Certainly reasonable to pressure clubs to look at the rules.  

Has anyone read what I posted about how the NHLPA treats minor leaguers compared to the MLBPA?

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