Illegal Pitch

it is a broad area but if a pitcher does it every pitch....no crime

I guess this is something I'd have to see. If the move looks as ugly as it sounds, I'm leaning towards balking the move. Ive seen a lot of moves and a lot of balks. If this is a move that only 2-3 players in the nation use, its needs to be looked at closely. If it was totally legal under NFHS codes then it would be widely taught. Ive never seen it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jonesin:
it is a broad area but if a pitcher does it every pitch....no crime

---

Doing something every time doesn't make it legal.

i agree bob....

if a pitcher pitches a way and doesnt change his form or motion and does the same windup or quick step from the stretch it isnt a crime....came across that, but if he does change it up sure its a balk....you cant take the true necessities away, but if its border line and he doesnt change it throughout the game then no crime.....reply back would love to learn more from your standpoint

Here is where you have a problem. "but if its border line"..........so who decides if its borderline?....the umpires of course.

If its borderline, then it becomes judgement. Any each umpire has his own judgement. It wont matter at that point if the last 2 umpires didnt think it was illegal when the 2 umpires today judge that it is.

I would not want to be doing something so radical that only 2-3 pitchers in the country are trying to get accepted as legal when it counts.

I may not be imaging this correctly. As I say, I'd need to see it. But it sounds like a duck.

piaa

good point...hard topic to debate i guess....but if he obviously balks everytime he throws then yes call it....mechanics make a pitcher...some pitchers have weird approaches to the plate that look like balks but are not....love your opinion .....really good point

A pitcher from Denton Texas has this same motion. It has been discussed thoroughly in Texas for 3 years and nothing has been done. He also pitched in the World Wood Bat, and has signed with University of Arizona. I think one of the keys is that his motion never varies.

My son's team faced him last night and there were 5 pro scouts with guns on him.

The player mentioned by coons2004 is Javier Guerra and plays for Denton Ryan High School. Though his delivery is controversial it has never been ruled illegal by the NFHS. If you want to see a video of his delivery follow this link and click on his name in the list. This is compliments of Perfect Game USA and requires RealPlayer 10 to view.

http://www.perfectgame.org/newplayers_list.cfm?tn=03national

"But the delivery has more than a couple of scouts and coaches questioning whether it is legal per baseball rules or not. At least one coach has sent in film to the NCAA for a ruling before he decides to start recruiting him. What he does is comparable to what a women’s softball pitcher does prior to release, except with a standard ¾’s release point. He takes a hard, big hop off his back (right) leg at the point when he starts coming forward in his delivery, lands hard on his front (left) leg and completes his arm stroke with his right leg probably a foot in front of the pitching rubber. While every pitcher looses contact with the rubber before he throws the ball, His action is so severe and exaggerated that there is little, if any, precedent for it at this level."

I looked at the video and took the above quote from the young mans profile. I would of course abide by any interpretation that the NCAA will rule on, but until that time. BALK....BALK....BALK.....

In my opinion this move is not pitching from 60'6" as governed by the rule book. This is a move to shorten the distance by at least a foot or more.

Dodgerdad, if this is the move your son is doing, I now do not have any question that I would balk it every time.

Balk, Balk, Balk!

You gotta try to stay in contact with the rubber. Most pitchers don't, true, but this is close to a crow hop!

Thanks for the replies... My son has the exact same delivery of
Javier Guerra.. Is this pitch has been ruled legal in Texas! How
about in California? I really need a quick response!!! Thanks...

c'mon EVERY pitcher leaves the rubber with back foot, only difference is stong rotators rotate off plate, linear pitchers go straight off just like this. Look at the toe drag; if u look at the mound after any game from LL up you will see
marks from the same motion 9/10 times. Look at video of pitchers, like u would if u were teaching a pitcher; ALL of them leave the rubber with the back foot, part ofg what their instructors/coaches look at is HOW they leave the rubber

Brown well off rubber at release

Not even close to the same thing. Yes, all pitchers leave the rubber as a result of the natural motion of pitching. But this is a deliberate movement to gain an unfair advantage. (my opinion).. BALK....BALK....BALK.

And I will add this.....Until a definitive approval comes from NFHS, NCAA or NAIA, the only opinion that counts is the Umpires.......Once approved, then I will happily agree that it is legal. Until then anyone who tries this with me gets Balked.

Ump thats ridiciculous. Its taking "unfair advantage" to try and throw the ball as hard as possible? Baloney. Taking steroids is taking unfair advantage, applying a foreign substance to the ball is taking unfair advantage, corking a bat is taking unfair advantage. This kid is exaggerating his push off the rubber. The reason its so evident and "ugly" is because its poorly timed and probably hampering his ability to throw harder.
Pitchinside:
"You gotta try to stay in contact with the rubber. Most pitchers don't, true, but this is close to a crow hop! "
NO PITCHER tries to keep his rear foot in contact with the rubber. For it to be a crow hop he would have to land on the post foot, with weight still back and then jump again.

I'm not an umpire, but that is the most obvious balk I have ever seen.

Just me,
It might be ridiculous to you from your point of view. In my opinion, (and its clearly labeled as such) this move is a balk, plain and simple. Your attempt to call it a "poorly timed" and "exaggerated push" off the rubber is like calling the Grand Canyon a ditch. Thats just too much simplification for me. A hop and a push are two different animals.

But, as an umpire, I will abide by any sanctioning body that will approve this move. So far I know of none who has. Its a balk to me.

As to your statement, "is it unfair advantage to try and throw the ball as hard as possible?" Of course not, it is however unfair advantage to try and shorten the distance from the 60'6" as set by the rules. And that is what I say it is.

Until such a time as this move is sanctioned, then the only opinion of this that matters is the umpires. I judge balks, so if your pitcher is using this move, be prepared for the balk call.

you need to move to Texas...from what I understand, lots of coaches have tried to argue that Javi's pitch is a balk and they get absolutely no where...maybe we need to send our umps to PA for school

maybe they otta just teach their teams to hit instead of trying to get the umps to win their games for them

This move has been studied and discussed in the state of Texas for 3 years. Since it has been studied by the UIL and is still not being determined as a balk, I would take that to mean that they are sanctioning it as a legal pitch.

Also in the PG World Wood Bat, I do not think that there were any balks called on this. Maybe the PG people can comment on this. Sometimes the absence of a call is the actual call. Meaning that the many umpires that have actually seen it in person have either not wanted to step out and make a decision, or have determiined it as legal.