Interesting Development on Pitch Counts in Georgia

These Georgia rules are lenient in contrast to Pitch Smart, but aren't they so because it is the obligation of the high school coach to protect his pitchers, not the GHSAA's? And more importantly, Pitch Smart recommendations are just that, recommendations, not enforceable rules unless a sanctioning organization such as PG is willing to implement and enforce them. State high school athletic associations promulgate rules with teeth and as such have to leave some flexibility for the coaches.

Parental oversight should also factor into the pitch count equation. NTGson was overused in his Junior HS season because I failed to be forceful in advance with his coach and with my son. Not so his senior season. We had the talk with the coach long before the HS season began. As a result he was much more effective during Conference and Regional play.

In travel ball his pitch counts were always limited: from 14U to 17U he was a position player and pitcher in a program which always rostered a good number of 'POs' and max pitch counts were scrupulously observed; 10U-13U his coaches were given a max count per inning and per game under the threat of unleashing his mother on them.

NotThatGuy posted:

These Georgia rules are lenient in contrast to Pitch Smart, but aren't they so because it is the obligation of the high school coach to protect his pitchers, not the GHSAA's? …

If the coaches could be completely trusted to protect the pitchers, they wouldn’t need a rule!

To be completely fair, it’s only a very small percentage of coaches who overuse or abuse pitchers.

It has always been the HS coach's "obligation" to protect pitchers.  But, how well has that worked out?  That's why we need rules.  That's why they are having rules forced upon them. 

Pitch Smart Guidelines are indeed recommended.  NFHS, foolishly in my opinion, left it to the states to develop an assortment of conflicting rules.  Some will adopt the Pitch Smart guidelines.  Others will adopt rules that afford less protection to their players.  That's what Georgia has done.  That's what Texas has done.  

You are absolutely right that parents also have a duty to their kids.  But, parents should not be put in the position of having to advocate for their kids' safety.  Been there, done that.  And I would do it again.  But, I paid the price.  I became "that dad."  My son paid the price.  True, many coaches aren't the lowlife that my son's coach was.  But, I feel strongly that this is not a conversation that parents should be forced to have.  Adopting Pitch Smart as written would save everyone, players, parents, coaches, doctors, etc., a lot of headaches.  Would it eliminate injuries?  Of course not.  But, it would certainly help, in more ways than one. 

The Georgia rules are more lenient for one reason, so HS coaches can get bye with fewer pitchers, and work their studs a little harder.  Shorter rest does not benefit pitchers.  It may, or may not, benefit coaches.  

Personally, I don't think the rules are THAT unreasonable.  They are pretty close to the PitchSmart guidelines and are MUCH, MUCH better than the old rules...  Especially when you are talking about HS seniors and probably juniors.  Freshmen and sophomores, it may be a stretching it a little, but, the High School Association might have a hard time developing a set of rules for each age.  They generally design rules for varsity play - and that is usually juniors and seniors.

bballman posted:

Personally, I don't think the rules are THAT unreasonable.  They are pretty close to the PitchSmart guidelines and are MUCH, MUCH better than the old rules...  Especially when you are talking about HS seniors and probably juniors.  Freshmen and sophomores, it may be a stretching it a little, but, the High School Association might have a hard time developing a set of rules for each age.  They generally design rules for varsity play - and that is usually juniors and seniors.

ANYTHING is better than what we had.  But, we've got good recommendations by the best medical minds on the planet.  Why not adopt them?  Keep in mind that the Pitch Smart guidelines already represent a compromise.  One ASMI study indicated that pitchers that throw more than 80 pitches per game on a regular basis have a 3.8 TIMES greater risk of injury.  But, they did not recommend an 80 pitch limit because they knew they couldn't sell it.  Instead, they chose 95 for 15-16's and 105 for 17-18's.  The days of rest recommended are a compromise as well.  But, based on no contradictory medical evidence, GA decides to water the guidelines down even further.  

The number of kids pitching on varsity depends on where you are, and the populations of the high schools in your area.  Around here it is very common to have freshmen and sophomore pitchers playing varsity baseball.  It makes no sense to treat 15 year olds the same as 18 year olds.  If USA Baseball can come up with different rules for different ages, so can the states.  They just don't want to.  Some states, like Georgia insist on a single number because it's the easier way out.  

MTH wrote   "Pitch Smart Guidelines are indeed recommended.  NFHS, foolishly in my opinion, left it to the states to develop an assortment of conflicting rules.  Some will adopt the Pitch Smart guidelines.  Others will adopt rules that afford less protection to their players.  That's what Georgia has done.  That's what Texas has done."

I'm in Texas (with a pitcher just entering HS).  I don't see Texas proposal much different than pitch smart.  Maybe you see something different than I (like the actual proposal).  My info is from newspaper articles.

MTH, can you reference what the Texas proposal is?

This is the last I see http://www.chron.com/sports/hi...baseball-8355432.php

Go44dad posted:

 

...

My one issue with Pitchsmart - and hence PG's pitch rules -  is that you can finish aninning once you reach your max.  This could push a 14 YO to 120 pitches.  ...

I think the PitchSmart guidelines allow for finishing the BATTER once the limit is reached. 

Big difference...

Isn't it a shame? A shame that there has to be rules for something like this? I remember coaching in an AAU tourney several years ago. We were playing a very good team from Wilmington NC and it was our first game on Friday. They threw a tremendous LHP. He went the distance and we escaped with a 2-1 win. They didn't lose again and we played them again in the Championship game on Sunday afternoon. Guess who they brought back out to pitch against us? You guessed it the LHP. He was still pretty good the first 3 or 4 innings. But it was clear he was fatigued. I think it was the 5th inning he was seriously laboring. We were up by a few runs. The kid is rubbing his elbow. Shaking his arm. After almost every pitch he was looking into his own dugout as if to say "Come get me." A foul ball went behind home plate and I made a point to sprint out and get it. As I did I walked over towards their coach who was sitting on a bucket calling pitches. "Hey Coach. Don't you think the kid has done enough?" Their Coach goes off. "You Coach your team and I will Coach mine." I said "If I thought you were capable I wouldn't have said anything. You should be ashamed of what your doing to that kid. He says "That's my kid and I know what he can do." I shook my head and just walked away.

I have seen so many talented kids over the years that HS pitch counts meant nothing to. Why? Because by the time they got to HS the damage had already been done. And yes I have seen HS pitchers rode like rented mules. In fact just this year I went to watch the final game of a best of 3 state championship. NC has a 12 inning per week pitch rule. Frist game starter goes 7 innings on Friday for the win. On Sunday in game 3 he comes in to close in the bottom of the 3rd. Goes on to throw 5. Yes on 1 days rest. Congrats coach you won your state championship.

No matter what rules you come up with there will never be a substitute for common sense, education and most of all the true desire to care more for your kids than winning a game.

T_Thomas posted:

Go44dad posted:

 

...

My one issue with Pitchsmart - and hence PG's pitch rules -  is that you can finish aninning once you reach your max.  This could push a 14 YO to 120 pitches.  ...

I think the PitchSmart guidelines allow for finishing the BATTER once the limit is reached. 

Big difference...

ok, I misread it.  Didn't see the "whichever comes first" after the "batter or inning" on PG's web site.

Go44dad posted:

 

MTH, can you reference what the Texas proposal is?

This is the last I see http://www.chron.com/sports/hi...baseball-8355432.php

 Go44dad,

You're right.  I have been collecting news articles on this for months. There was one, from another state, suggesting that Texas had adopted a 125 limit.  That is obviously incorrect.  That's for pointing that out.

As far as finishing the batter or inning, I don't see where this is actually addressed in the Pitch Smart Guidelines.  But, maybe I'm missing something.  Not sure what their official position would be.  PG's decision to allow pitchers to finish a batter is a lot more reasonable than allowing him to finish the inning.  But, allowing the pitcher to finish the batter really means that the 95 and 105 limits set forth in Pitch Smart are, in reality, going to me more like 97-98 or 107-108.  All the more reason to not push the cap to 110 to 120.  A soft cap at 120 is really going to end up 122-123, or more.  

MTH posted:

As far as finishing the batter or inning, I don't see where this is actually addressed in the Pitch Smart Guidelines.  But, maybe I'm missing something.  Not sure what their official position would be.  PG's decision to allow pitchers to finish a batter is a lot more reasonable than allowing him to finish the inning.  But, allowing the pitcher to finish the batter really means that the 95 and 105 limits set forth in Pitch Smart are, in reality, going to me more like 97-98 or 107-108.  All the more reason to not push the cap to 110 to 120.  A soft cap at 120 is really going to end up 122-123, or more.  

I actually pulled the finish batter or inning from PG pitch rules.  Due to inability to focus clearly for more than three consecutive seconds, I did not read the end of the sentence where it says "whichever comes first".

The pitch count rules Georgia has adopted are identical to what almost every state who has already adopted them has in use. These rules developed as a compromise between Pitch Smart, which enough people thought too repressive (especially for small schools) to get the required votes in state associations to be implemented, and the traditional ridiculously lax inning limitations. Not everyone who agrees pitch limits are the way to go necessarily believes Pitch Smart to be the only responsible limits. I would like to see an extra day on the high end of those counts as well, but this is what it took to get anything voted in here in Colorado. There was enough push back by the smaller schools to make it a fight. It never would have happened if the proposal had followed Pitch Smart to the tee.

I am very happy with the pitch count / PG invoked rules.  I remember weekend after weekend in USSSA 11U / 12U tournaments, the same top pitchers throwing 3 innings on saturday and 6 innings on sunday with no one counting pitches.  And some pitching in little league during the week. Luckily, my son wasn't pitching as much back then.

Now in Texas, my son heads off to HS with an "Old School" coach with UIL pitch counts, I couldn't think of a better situation.  

Stats4Gnats posted:

NotThatGuy posted:

These Georgia rules are lenient in contrast to Pitch Smart, but aren't they so because it is the obligation of the high school coach to protect his pitchers, not the GHSAA's? …

 

If the coaches could be completely trusted to protect the pitchers, they wouldn’t need a rule!

 

To be completely fair, it’s only a very small percentage of coaches who overuse or abuse pitchers.

We have those same rules in Colorado that Georgia will implement. Even though a pitcher can throw 110 pitches and come back on three days rest, I have watched this closely and know of only one school which has abused this rest requirement to run their ace pitcher out consistently on three days rest. The vast majority of schedules don't even make that a problem. I searched throughout the season for such misuse and only found the one school who was able to get its starter 64 innings. There was one more kid from a small school who threw 64.2 innings, but they won the state championship and that team played two weeks longer than the first guy's team.

roothog66 posted:

…I searched throughout the season for such misuse and only found the one school who was able to get its starter 64 innings. …

One of the things making it so hard to pick out “misuse” is how the data is available. Where we store our data for the most part out here and what you in Co use is MaxPreps. As you’ve prolly already found out, although anyone can go in and view every pitcher on a team by appearance, it’s somewhat time consuming when you want to look at more than one team. Even if you only have a few hundred schools in the entire state, we’re talking about an immense amount of research time.

Stats4Gnats posted:

roothog66 posted:

…I searched throughout the season for such misuse and only found the one school who was able to get its starter 64 innings. …

 

One of the things making it so hard to pick out “misuse” is how the data is available. Where we store our data for the most part out here and what you in Co use is MaxPreps. As you’ve prolly already found out, although anyone can go in and view every pitcher on a team by appearance, it’s somewhat time consuming when you want to look at more than one team. Even if you only have a few hundred schools in the entire state, we’re talking about an immense amount of research time.

First, "misuse" was too strong of a word. I don't really see it as misuse, but rather pushing the rule to its extent. I shouldn't express this as misuse. Actually, MaxPreps makes it quite easy if you simply look at the leader boards and expand it to the entire state. You can then pick out the pitchers with the most innings and look at their individual game logs. Now, of course, there will be some who pitched lower numbers of innings, but over shorter periods due to things like injury, but I think you can, in general monitor the overall state of the rule use. However, as you mention, Colorado requires stats to be entered into MaxPreps and that makes it easy. In other states, this may be impossible to monitor.

roothog66 posted:

First, "misuse" was too strong of a word. I don't really see it as misuse, but rather pushing the rule to its extent. I shouldn't express this as misuse. Actually, MaxPreps makes it quite easy if you simply look at the leader boards and expand it to the entire state. You can then pick out the pitchers with the most innings and look at their individual game logs. Now, of course, there will be some who pitched lower numbers of innings, but over shorter periods due to things like injury, but I think you can, in general monitor the overall state of the rule use. However, as you mention, Colorado requires stats to be entered into MaxPreps and that makes it easy. In other states, this may be impossible to monitor.

No matter what it’s called, if a pitcher throws more than the max allowed pitches or before he’s had the required rest, it’s a violation.

It’s funny how we can have such different views of what’s easy and what isn’t.

What I keep lobbying MP to do is make 2 “exception” reports available. One would shows all appearances that exceed the max and the other all appearances that took place without proper rest. Make that available by state and you’ve solved the policing problem. The best thing about it would be that they could do in microseconds what it would take many man-hours to do, and it would get every violation. Of course it would only work if all the appearances were in the database.

I’m also trying to get them to put every pitcher and the next date he can legally pitch on the game program coaches can get. That would eliminate virtually all rest violations for coaches that used game programs.

Unfortunately, MP says there hasn’t been many coaches asking for those things so they’re low on the development totem pole.

Stats,  I think you must have misinterpreted my post. I wasn't talking about a kid who violated the pitch counts. I was talking about following it to the letter - pitching him 110 and then bringing him right back on day four for another 110. My point being that the worry about the rules requiring one less day than SM would require very, very, rarely has come into play.

roothog66 posted:

Stats,  I think you must have misinterpreted my post. I wasn't talking about a kid who violated the pitch counts. I was talking about following it to the letter - pitching him 110 and then bringing him right back on day four for another 110. My point being that the worry about the rules requiring one less day than SM would require very, very, rarely has come into play.

I want to make sure I am understanding your rule.  Pitcher throws 110 on Day 1, Rests on Days 2 and 3.  Can he pitch again on Day 4 in your state?  If so, that's ridiculously short rest.  Pitch Smart would not allow him to pitch again until Day 6.  

On here days rest. Pitch one day, then rest three days and pitch on the fourth day after pitching. Pitch Smart guidelines would call for four days rest. Colorado (and pretty much every other HS rule) calls for three days rest.

roothog66 posted:

Stats,  I think you must have misinterpreted my post. I wasn't talking about a kid who violated the pitch counts. I was talking about following it to the letter - pitching him 110 and then bringing him right back on day four for another 110. My point being that the worry about the rules requiring one less day than SM would require very, very, rarely has come into play.

The way a team’s schedule is set up has a lot to do with whether it will be more or less likely there will be a lot or “pushing the envelope” if not flat out violations. With 8 teams in the league we play 2 games against every team. Last year it was set up to play back to back games on a 3 game a week schedule playing M-W-F games. This upcoming season everything will stay the same except the games will be played on T-Th-F and the strategy is going to change. We’ll see how the schedule change along with going to PCs affects everything. If y’all had a similar schedule I suspect the rarity would be reduced. My suspicion is, next year the coaches who don’t/won’t/can’t develop pitching will be running into difficulties, and I believe there should be an easy way to spot them.

Not including post season. How many games in  a typical season for posters?Here in Il I-8 conference we play 30-34 games in season starting @ 3rd week of march. 2016 was a 4 yr. V pitcher/player.He was within an inning or two of pitching 64 innings all for yrs. 60 frosh........63 soph......65 jr. and same for sr.  All four  yrs. of my final count includes 1 playoff game full 7 innings. The reason I ask this is from roots post. 

In Colorado, 18 regular season. Playoffs start with 32 teams and go to double Elim only for the final 8. So, at most, 6 playoff games.

We’re allowed 27 regular season games. Post season can be as many as 6. We start in late Feb.

How much any pitcher throws is subject to many different factors. My boy threw 170 innings in 33 V appearances. Had he been on a team with stronger pitching he’d have thrown less and on a team with even weaker pitching he’d likely have thrown more.

I see why the 64 innings is alot when your only playing 18-20 games.For now there is no rule here reguarding pitching.Why the school doesn't step in I have no clue.I hold them just as responsible.Stats completly right on sceduling.Over my guys 4 yrs. on V 7 games in 6 days or worse was just a normal thing.With early weather cancelling a number of times we had 18-20 games in 21-23 days. I never understood it. In years when you have plenty of pitching you can pick up the extra games very easy. Early on ( first 3 weeks or so) and during spring break games arn't that hard to find. During yrs.  light on pitching don't pick up the extras. Seems pretty easy. 28 games or so serves the same porpose as the 35 for the kids.

Georgia now has pitch limits for the first time.  Yay.

It's not enough for some people.  Whine and moan. 

SultanofSwat posted:

Georgia now has pitch limits for the first time.  Yay.

It's not enough for some people.  Whine and moan. 

Weren't these the pitching restriction in Ga before this?

(a) Pitchers are limited to a maximum of ten (10) innings in a calendar day.
(b) Pitchers are limited to a maximum of fourteen (14) innings in four (4) consecutive
calendar days.

Not exactly strict, but not exactly non-existent either.

proudhesmine posted:

I see why the 64 innings is alot when your only playing 18-20 games.For now there is no rule here reguarding pitching.Why the school doesn't step in I have no clue.I hold them just as responsible.Stats completly right on sceduling.Over my guys 4 yrs. on V 7 games in 6 days or worse was just a normal thing.With early weather cancelling a number of times we had 18-20 games in 21-23 days. I never understood it. In years when you have plenty of pitching you can pick up the extra games very easy. Early on ( first 3 weeks or so) and during spring break games arn't that hard to find. During yrs.  light on pitching don't pick up the extras. Seems pretty easy. 28 games or so serves the same porpose as the 35 for the kids.

Isn’t this the rule for Il?

A player may not pitch more than nine innings in any one day, except, if a pitcher is pitching in the game when the score is tied at the end of the regulation period of play, the pitcher shall be permitted to continue pitching until he is relieved or the conclusion of the game, whichever occurs first.

Again, not exactly strict but not non-existent either.

I’m not sure, but I doubt that AD’s or principals have time to micro-manage every sport and activity to make sure every written and moral rule is adhered to. They hire a HC to do that.

Stats4Gnats posted:

SultanofSwat posted:

Georgia now has pitch limits for the first time.  Yay.

It's not enough for some people.  Whine and moan. 

Weren't these the pitching restriction in Ga before this?

(a) Pitchers are limited to a maximum of ten (10) innings in a calendar day.
(b) Pitchers are limited to a maximum of fourteen (14) innings in four (4) consecutive
calendar days.

Not exactly strict, but not exactly non-existent either.

There is a difference between "pitching" limits and "pitch" limits. While Georgia did, indeed have "pitching" limits prior to this, I think SoS was happy to see "pitch" limits.

roothog66 posted:

There is a difference between "pitching" limits and "pitch" limits. While Georgia did, indeed have "pitching" limits prior to this, I think SoS was happy to see "pitch" limits.

That may or may not be the case. My experience is that while the coaches and wonks like myself often read the rules, most parents, players, and fans don’t read either the individual sport rule book or the state assn constitution or bylaws governing HS sports. Rather, most ask someone they “believe” has read them or knows what the rules are, and that becomes truth.

The reason the “rules” aren’t widely read is a belief that there are systems in place to make sure the rules are followed without realizing the reason for all the rules is that there is some reason for them.