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Bogeyorpar,

You bring up a great point, and this goes back to knowing what you want to do after graduation.  Knowing the reputation of the college within the University and how it ranks nationally is extremely important.  In your example of UPenn and TexasA&M there are various degrees within engineering (specialties) that UPenn and Texas A&M are extremely competent.   Penn is renowned for their Computer Engineering program with a huge graduate pipeline to the Tech industry and tech startups.  For some folks, I think it is also very important to consider what they want to minor in as well as the depth and breadth of a specific engineering program.  While I agree with some of your points, I think folks have to look at the bigger picture (initial job opportunity and future job opportunity) as well as the specific major specialty.  Some schools are extremely competent in one, two or multiple areas.  Choice within an engineering disciple;ine may be part of the recruit/student's decision criteria.  I know it was with my son.

Also, with your financial analsysis you are comparing need based financial aid (Ivys) with other forms of financial aid which is not entirely accurate.  Many people do not pay full tuition to ivy schools, so it is going to depend on a  specific household income.  Ivy financial aid can be  extremely generous.

Last edited by fenwaysouth

Been reading this thread daily.  Fenway's final point is important.  I have a former student who is now in her 2nd year at an Ivy.  She comes from a household of two teachers.  My understanding, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, is she and her family are paying $6,000 for her to attend her Ivy.  Total.  Bright young lady, some of it may come from academic scholarship but I am sure a good bit from need based financial aid.  

Hey, you never know?

Financing the college education is another big piece to the puzzle.

I hear a lot of chatter around about families stuck in a dead zone for financial aid. The family income comes out just enough in the formulas eye not to provide any (or very minimal) aid, but the reality is quite different...

Do Ivy's really offer academic or merit scholarship? If so, the competition must be really fierce and next to impossible for an athlete who has had to dedicate so many hours outside of the classroom on their sport instead of creating a new start up or the next Nobel prize work.

There are no merit or athletic scholarships given by the Ivy schools, all financial aid is need based. Hands down, that FA is the best in the country (excepting a handful of schools which are free - none of which I believe play baseball).  (My D was accepted to Vandy and Duke with zero aid and received about half tuition aid from her Ivy.)

I think speculating the final major of a student and narrowing down the schools based on that fact could be risky. I believe well over half of incoming freshman graduate in a major different from the original presumptive major. Add the time commitment which baseball brings to the table, and even a higher percentage will gravitate towards majors which allow the player to play without being buried by the demands of a math or lab based major.

While anecdotal evidence really isn't very helpful, I have two kids attending the same school. Both athletes (but D in a sport which is NCAA level at half her conference and club level at the remaining schools); D matriculated as a presumptive Chem Eng. major. She will graduate with that degree - but along the way she picked up a finance minor.  She's headed into the investment banking world - she'll use the Chem Eng. knowledge in finance rather then in the field or lab. The point is, there are whole new worlds and opportunities which will open for all kids in college so pick a place where those potential options are not foreclosed.  (And there are certain fields of engineering which are boom/bust areas. A student majoring in petroleum engineering faces a different job market today then five years ago - so having options allows the student to adjust to new conditions.)

 

Here's another study from a few years ago: http://economix.blogs.nytimes....best-paid-graduates/

Key: "Ivy League Schools are the best bet for mid-career pay, with five out of the top 10"

And Goosegg is correct, no merit or athletic scholarships. Financial Aid only. However, it can be quite generous, and particularly when it comes to sports like baseball, it can be a much better deal than a partial scholarship at another school. Using Yale as an example, families with total gross income of less than $65,000 pay nothing; and the student has no loans -- it is all grants that don't have to be paid back.

Just to clarify, yes Ivy's do offer merit (academic) scholarships.  My son's girlfriend received a 4-year Presidential scholarship to an ivy.  Very bright girl and she was in demand among a few top schools.  Chemical engineer, soccer player and her Mother is an educator.  They are out there, but I wouldn't count on getting one.   What I don't know is if each school offers it and how many they offer.  I'm guessing it is a very small number based upon the talent coming through the door.

Last edited by fenwaysouth

And to bring it all full circle back to the baseball athlete, always bear in mind that the athletic scholarship, at the "high academic power 5" that was the original subject of the thread, is renewed annually by the coach.  He may get 50% first year, 30% second year, 60% third, etc.  Or he may get nothing at all.  Or he may get his deal for the following year, then get approached later and be told it is changing so the coach can chase the hottest new recruit freshman that just de-committed from his prior school.  How about if a new coach gets hired that the kid has no relationship with and he wants to bring in his own players.  It's all in play.  In the Ivy, your deal is your deal - assuming family finances remain about the same.  Once you're in, even if you give up the sport, get hurt, whatever, you have your deal and it's not changing.

The other piece on the finances is let's assume your kid is a highly sought after, stud type power 5 guy.  50% athletic is usually considered a pretty good deal.  If the school is private, you're still facing a bill of $30-$35K.  Depending on family finances, the kid (and family) still may be far better off with regular Ivy financial aid.

fenwaysouth posted:

Just to clarify, yes Ivy's do offer merit (academic) scholarships.  My son's girlfriend received a 4-year Presidential scholarship to an ivy.  Very bright girl and she was in demand among a few top schools.  Chemical engineer, soccer player and her Mother is an educator.  They are out there, but I wouldn't count on getting one.   What I don't know is if each school offers it and how many they offer.  I'm guessing it is a very small number based upon the talent coming through the door.

Agree with Fenway, but the student has to be a true star to get merit aid directly from an Ivy. 

There are other avenues to getting a merit scholarship.  http://www.stampsfoundation.org/ 

Roe Stamps has a very generous program that partners with many schools.  In my limited experience, a school decided that wanted my daughter (non-athlete) and then partnered with the Stamps Foundation to offer a full scholarship.  There are numerous other programs like this that are independent of the school, but are in fact very tightly connected.  For instance, Jefferson at UVA and Belk at Davidson College which was my daughter's choice. 

Goosegg posted:

Do you give scholarships for academic merit, special talents or athletic ability?

No. All financial aid awards are based solely on need. Learn more about how aid is assigned in theUndergraduate Financial Aid Information and Application Instructions.  

This is from the Princeton website. 

one thing I have learned in life is that it is very easy to post a policy solely based on "need". When it becomes time that something is deemed important or wanted the definition of "need" or virtually any other term can stretched, twisted and sort of redefined...I know a kid very well, he is at one of the highly regarded schools mentioned in this thread, he was found late in the process. He is on a 50% academic scholarship...at school his father told me there is no doubt he doesn't get accepted at without baseball. He was low on GPA, test scores and course levels. he was good student, not great and solid test scores not good but this is a tough school to get into. he also has some athletic gifts that apparently were much appreciated by the coaches...so when things like "need" "academics" and "lack of funding" are being discussed please remember that we are not all using the same definition of the words and they can be altered and or modified if the proper people support it.

Goosegg posted:

Do you give scholarships for academic merit, special talents or athletic ability?

No. All financial aid awards are based solely on need. Learn more about how aid is assigned in theUndergraduate Financial Aid Information and Application Instructions.  

This is from the Princeton website. 

Not sure about the other Ivys, but a financial aid grant at Dartmouth was called a "Dartmouth Scholarship." That's what it said on the student bill; that was the name used by the school. It really wasn't a  merit scholarship -- it was a grant made to those who needed financial aid, and based on the amount of need. Technically, the student and his or her family could say the student got a "scholarship" -- after all, that was the actual term used by the school -- but it really was financial aid.

Goosegg posted:

If he is getting academic money which is not given to every other student with the same stats, that school is in deep trouble.

maybe, but I don't think it is a reasonable expectation to think it doesn't happen at many many schools or close to everywhere.

Did we all forget the North Carolina phantom class for athletes? Remember the one where it was only available to atheletes of various sports?

Do you really believe the 35 kids at Vandy, Duke (insert whatever other name that fits) and Stanford are paying their own way? I mean honestly if you really think about it who gets an athletic scholarship, need based grant, academic scholarship, one of countless funded scholarships...there is a tremendous amount of leeway inside the rules to make things work if the school has access to capital, regardless of what type.

There is no doubt in my mind this is happening every day at every school, with a few possible exceptions but they would be the outlier not the norm.

"maybe, but I don't think it is a reasonable expectation to think it doesn't happen at many many schools or close to everywhere.

Did we all forget the North Carolina phantom class for athletes? Remember the one where it was only available to atheletes of various sports?"

Quite a leap from citing the UNC example of phantom classes and stretching that to include the vast majority of schools are giving away impermissible scholarships.  Do you have any evidence, apart from having "no doubt in your mind" that the vast majority of schools are giving away impermissible scholarships?  I understand your feelings (well placed in that it seems that cheating has no dire consequences), but where is actual evidence?

As for the thought that 35 players at Vandy and Duke are paying their own way, no, I don't think you can stretch my observation to fit that. Those players (collectively) get 11.7 full COA scholarships, plus whatever all other students are offered as inducements which essentially cut the sticker price.  At the 65k local D1 power, I know many kids (recruited walk-ons) who (over the last decade) received minor awards (because the school gives out lots of 1 - 5k scholarships) whose parents were hoping (wishing) that some athletic scholarship would be earned in subsequent years.  Most transferred as wishes crashed into the reality of college baseball economics.

If a family has means, has poured money into building skills for 10 years, has a player who a coach has convinced is wanted (but for zero money), who has hopes that the player will succeed, then, yes, they will pay the price (the same as a non-athlete's family will sacrifice to pay the tuition for that "dream" school).  Still more families will initially look at the reduction in sticker price and feel elated; reality sets in when even with the reduction, the family still owes 30k per year (again, the same as a non-athlete's family).  

Some (southern) schools have state programs (open to all state residents) (e.g., HOPE) which essentially bring down the sticker price - but the awards are without regard to athletic skills.  These types of programs put those schools at an economic advantage when compared to schools in states without such generous programs.

Coaches are masters at manipulating economics; each has his magic dust - some offer small up front minimum scholarships with talk of larger grants In future years (left unsaid is what benchmarks must be met to earn the increase); others will cut seniors to zero (can't transfer, wasn't drafted as a junior, no downside); others use the revolving door (don't produce, leave).  Whatever method each coach uses, most of the time the field tilts towards the coach and away from the player and family.  

Each type of FA has its own risks: athletic scholarships (perform on the field or it's gone), academic scholarships (perform in the classroom while having a full time job or it's gone), or need-based (family has a good financial year and it's gone).

old_school posted:
Goosegg posted:

If he is getting academic money which is not given to every other student with the same stats, that school is in deep trouble.

maybe, but I don't think it is a reasonable expectation to think it doesn't happen at many many schools or close to everywhere.

 

I have to admit that I was shocked by the UNC scandals, so I will no longer be surprised by anything, but I still don't believe that "many many schools" are skirting the rules with scholarships and grants for athletes. Remember that football and basketball get plenty of 100% athletic scholarships, so there's no need to break the rules in those sports. I doubt that other sports like baseball are important enough to schools to risk NCAA violations, in most cases. Also, look at the rosters on those teams you mentioned (and the Ivys). At least half of the kids are usually coming from private high schools and most of their families are probably just thrilled that they were admitted; they aren't negotiating the fees.

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