Jugs vs Stalker.

 
January 1, 2009 11:12 AM

We used the 2 guns on 60 pitches on 4 kids. The stalker was a sport 2. Around kids throwing high 70's to low 80's. 60% of the pitches the guns were the same 30% jugs was 1 mile and hour faster 10% Stalker was faster. Down in the slower range the jugs was faster more often say 50 mph range.
 
 
 
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January 3, 2009 3:30 PM

I have seen both used many times together and like you said most of the time they were the same. When different the jugs was 1 mph faster.
 
 
 
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January 3, 2009 6:43 PM

In my experiences, there has always been a 2 to 4 mph difference depending on the expertise of the individual using the equipment. In the past year, the Stalker and Stalker Pro have been the gun of choice among most scouts and recruiters. In Jupiter this past fall, I did not notice anyone using a Jugs, not even the Perfect Game staff.
 
 
 
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January 3, 2009 8:18 PM

Jugs is the gun of choice by baseball dads! The little ones especially. They look like blow dryers.
 
 
 
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January 4, 2009 10:59 PM

"Expertise of the individual using the equipment"? It's a radar gun. You get behind the catcher and point the gun toward the pitcher. How much expertise can there be? Sounds to me like the jugs and stalker are pretty close. I'm sure they both round off their numbers when picked up. If they are only off by around 1mph as Love says, it could really just be a matter of 10th's. Don't think it's that big a deal.
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 8:43 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Clint Taylor:
In my experiences, there has always been a 2 to 4 mph difference depending on the expertise of the individual using the equipment. In the past year, the Stalker and Stalker Pro have been the gun of choice among most scouts and recruiters.


Same with my experience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Stalker reads ball velocity as it crosses the plate, where as the Jugs takes it out of the hand, which is why the Jugs tends to provide a slightly higher reading.
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 10:07 AM

ive had a jugs and a stalker 2 both at the same time stalker was 1 to 2 mph faster most time jugs@89 stalker@91 but i've taken the 61mph tuning fork and it read 61 on both gun plus an old stalker. so now i think it has to do with range of the gun and cycles per second and those could be affected by the power left in the battery. your angle from the release point will lower the velo readings as will shooting between a tin building and metal light poll haha! found that one out first hand. id say you can trust either brand
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 10:39 AM

Both read out of hand velocity, the Stalker reportedly rounds Vel down and the Jugs rounds Vel up so they (Jugs) in general tend read a little higher. With the newer Stalker you can get both out of hand and plate. There are lots of ways readings can vary as mentioned in some posts above. The Stalker can pick up readings at farther distances hence the reason for it being the standard for scouts.

Dads are reported to round velocity up, depending of course who they are talking to and how much alcohol has been consumed.

Person Round up factor

Son +0
Close Friend +4
HS Coach +5
College Coach +7 (The reason for the HSBBW Dad – 7 rule)
Pro-Scout +9
Guy on the street +10

1 Beer +2
2 Beers +4
3 Beers +7
4+ Beers +11 (Notice the non linearity of the readings)
Six pack+ Mumbles stuff about son will be signed in the 1st round of the MLB draft.
Passed out+ Dreams that he is actually his son. (we won’t get into the psychology of this here this can be found on HSPBBW)

Scouts and College coaches have reported a very wide range of readings most commonly found while talking to dads after 3+ beers.
 
Last edited by BOF January 9, 2009 10:52 AM
 
 
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January 9, 2009 11:19 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BOF:

Dads are reported to round velocity up, depending of course who they are talking to and how much alcohol has been consumed.


So funny. So true!
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 11:43 AM

Stalkers pick the ball up just after it is relewased. Juds refered to as slow guns pick the ball up about 25' out of the hand.
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 11:51 AM

I read on another message board that the juggs will give a reading right out of the pitchers hand, the Stalker will give an average of the speed from between the pitchers hand and the catchers glove. The juggs' range is 100 feet, not sure about the stalker, but heard it is further.
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 12:01 PM

bb that isn't correct. The BB slows down about 6-7 mph after leaving the hand at the plate.
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 12:37 PM

Stalkers are recognized as the standard of radar guns. They are the most accurate and that is the gun of choice by professional scouts and the top college programs. Both Stalker and Jugs read the ball out of the hand. Jugs is definitely not the slow gun. As a rule, they will be 1-2 mph quicker on the average.

The little Jugs gun looks like a blow dryer and is the gun of choice for parents who have no business standing behind the back stop bothering the college coaches and pro scouts as they get little Johnny's reading (just a little commentary).
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 12:44 PM

At the camp we attended over break, my son was clocked on a Stalker when he pitched Sunday and on the Jugs on Monday. Sunday the Stalker said he was pitching the same speed he did a year ago, last time he was gunned. Then the coach came over and told the guy gunning him that the gun was off.

The next day the Jugs gunned him about 7 mph faster.

LHPMom2012
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 2:29 PM

Thanks Bobblehead, just what someone else had said.

I take a little bit of offense by your comment nc. First of all what a gun looks like has no bearing on it's performance. Are you saying that for all the years scouts and MLB teams were using the Juggs that they were just standing around using hairdryers? At $800, I don't think the Jugs is a piece of junk or something that is "for parents who have no business standing behind the back stop bothering the college coaches and pro scouts as they get little Johnny's reading". Maybe a cheap Bushnell, but not a Jugs. If college and pro scouts are looking at him, he isn't "little Johnny" anymore anyway.

If you look at this post as well as the others that have been on this board, everyone says that MOST of the scouts and pros use the Stalker. Obviously, there are still some using the Jugs. The other thing is, how inaccurate can it be? Worst case scenario from what I have heard is that on SOME pitches, it MAY be 1 or 2 mph off. Other times the Stalker is a little higher. Once again, they sound pretty close to me.

LHPMom, based on what BOF says, sounds like the Stalker gun was reading the pitch when it reached the plate. Jugs when it left the hand.
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 2:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by LHPMom2012:

The next day the Jugs gunned him about 7 mph faster.
LHPMom2012


Further evidence to the infallible truth found here at HSBBW.

We now have a new corollary to the Dad – 7 rule; Ask mom –7. Smile
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 2:40 PM

Actually the Stalker did give both reads -- at the plate it was 6 mph lower.

LHPMom
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 3:54 PM

Six mph slower than the 7 mph slower than the Jugs?
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 3:59 PM

OK I will get a little serious here. These guns are electronic devices that can, and do have problems. I know this since I have a Stalker and use it often and have seen variations due to set up problems, battery charging, improper angles, picking up bats, batted balls, reflections off of metal, even pointing it and pulling the trigger correctly. Scouts & pitching coaches who use these things every day have all this figured out and know how to use them properly. They also have their devices calibrated regularly. For everyone else, (myself included) they can be a useful tool, but can also be inaccurate and cause problems with pitchers trying to throw to the gun instead of pitching, and parents worrying about how hard (or not) little Johnny (or big) is throwing.

I use it as a way to measure the long-term development of my son’s velocity and more importantly the speed variations he has throwing his various pitches. I also use it to game chart pitchers for the HS coach so he can discuss with his kids how they are doing and developing and what they were throwing in a particular game. We also use it as a way to scout competitive teams and see what they are throwing at us.

We never give velocities to pitchers while they are in a game. Only the coach and his staff get the report. If someone asks me how hard so and so is throwing then I usually just give the working velocity of his FB. They are great tools but can also be a distraction.

As far as the differences between the two guns the Jugs is a fine piece of equipment, they generally (as BBMan pointed out not always) read 1-2 MPH slower than the Stalker and don’t have the range. There are lots of threads here with more details if you want to scan through the history.
 
Last edited by BOF January 9, 2009 4:02 PM
 
 
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January 9, 2009 5:34 PM

Bballman,

Yes.

LHPMom
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 7:50 PM

bballman- Sorry I struck a nerve. If I did, maybe it's for a reason. I said the little Jugs gun. There's more than one kind. And yes, it looks like a blow dryer. And yes, it is the gun of choice for over-zealous parents! Here's something else for you- You are right that he's not little Johnny if he has a gaggle of scouts gunning him. All the more reason for his parent to have his (or her- once had a mom back there) butt in the stands to let those people do their jobs.

BOF makes a great point. Use the gun as a teaching tool in practice as well as for teaching variance of speed in different pitches. The only thing I would correct is that the Jugs typically will read a little faster than the Stalker.
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 8:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
The only thing I would correct is that the Jugs typically will read a little faster than the Stalker.


Correct typo on my part.
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 9:35 PM

I googled Jugs and could only find one kind. Round tube with handle. Price in the $800 range. Is this the "little Jugs gun" you are talking about? Before you pass any further judgement, I am not standing behind the fence amongst scouts. My son is just a freshman in HS. I have been the pitching coach for his travel teams the past four years and bought the Jugs gun about a year and a half ago for a number of reasons. One was to evaluate new pitchers we had trying out. Another was to track the progress of our pitchers throughout the year and from year to year and the other was to get a read on change of speed pitches to help them measure their success.

I took the gun out maybe 3-4 times per year to see where the kids stood (my son included). If I take offense, it is because you seem to think that I am something that I am not. I think you should not associate a product with whatever personality type and think that everyone fits into that category.

Since the time that I stopped coaching, the gun has come out once (mid October) and my younger son is the one who actually used it to get a read on my baseball son. Once again, to get an idea of his progress since the last time he was gunned was in April.

Guess I just don't like it when someone would imply that I am one of those "parents who have no business standing behind the back stop bothering the college coaches and pro scouts as they get little Johnny's reading" just because I own a Jugs gun.
 
 
 
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January 9, 2009 9:46 PM

I wasn't implying anything. It was a general statement that reflected more about some of my parents than anyone. I'm not sure where your son plays but if he played for a program that a friend of mine runs in your area and you went back to gun a guy in a parent capacity- trust me, you'd hear about it.
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 11:58 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
I wasn't implying anything. It was a general statement that reflected more about some of my parents than anyone. I'm not sure where your son plays but if he played for a program that a friend of mine runs in your area and you went back to gun a guy in a parent capacity- trust me, you'd hear about it.


We would fire that Coaches *** that day. If a Coach is so worried about what goes on outside the fence during a game how can he be focused on the game itself. Our local high school has its home games on the radio our play by play guy has a gun and tells the people on the radio what speeds the pitchers are throwing. Our parent run club has built 2 new very nice dugouts an indoor practice cage that is collapsable, supplies the school with new bats every year, every kid has pullovers, practice/hitting jersey, bat bags, if a player has issues with money we will buy him cleats or whatever he needs. Fund raiser after fund raiser is done to help out. We work year round on this no Coach after we work this much is gonna tell myself or any of these parents we can't gun our kid from the press box on a few pitches.
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 12:23 PM

I think the MLB organization or college that hired the person holding the gun is the most important thing. I honestly don't know the brand of radar guns they were using when my son was scouted. I do know a lot of them were yellow if that means anything.
Fungo
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 12:40 PM

Conversely, I would cut your son's *** that day. Your parent-run club sounds like a coach's nightmare. The day parents are able to have that kind of power is the day a coach loses any kind of autonomy to make the right decisions. You probably don't understand that.

The guy that I was talking about runs the most successful program in the country and you'd be very fortunate to play in his program. Do you even understand why I said that in the first place? No pro scout or college wants a meddling, over-involved parent. They see that as a red flag for problems in the future when your son joins their college program or professional organization. They don't want a "package deal".

quote:
Originally posted by love summer time ball:
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
I wasn't implying anything. It was a general statement that reflected more about some of my parents than anyone. I'm not sure where your son plays but if he played for a program that a friend of mine runs in your area and you went back to gun a guy in a parent capacity- trust me, you'd hear about it.


We would fire that Coaches *** that day. If a Coach is so worried about what goes on outside the fence during a game how can he be focused on the game itself. Our local high school has its home games on the radio our play by play guy has a gun and tells the people on the radio what speeds the pitchers are throwing. Our parent run club has built 2 new very nice dugouts an indoor practice cage that is collapsable, supplies the school with new bats every year, every kid has pullovers, practice/hitting jersey, bat bags, if a player has issues with money we will buy him cleats or whatever he needs. Fund raiser after fund raiser is done to help out. We work year round on this no Coach after we work this much is gonna tell myself or any of these parents we can't gun our kid from the press box on a few pitches.
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 1:04 PM

If a parent can't be in the pressbox for 1 minute out of sight to gun his kid their is a problem. That Coach sounds like a control freak. In our class we have won more playoff games this decade than anybody. We had a Coach who wanted no help and kept the parents away he won 22% of his games. We provide money and he Coaches never had a problem.


Conversely, I would cut your son's *** that day. Your parent-run club sounds like a coach's nightmare. The day parents are able to have that kind of power is the day a coach loses any kind of autonomy to make the right decisions. You probably don't understand that.
So if the parents do something wrong you run the kid off. That is a sick way of doing things sounds like you do not have enought backbone or guts to stand up to parents and just cut kids to stop the parents you are scared of.
 
Last edited by love summer time ball January 10, 2009 1:12 PM
 
 
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January 10, 2009 1:21 PM

You don't understand- it's not about the coach. If you read what I said in the first place, it's about a parent standing back there with professionals trying to do their jobs. It's about a coach trying to help you not to screw it up for your son.
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 1:35 PM

summer time- I've run a program since 1992 that has sent about 280 players to the D1 college level, had over 60 more in the pro ranks, about 16 or 17 big-leaguers, and 3 all-stars (including a league MVP). I have a great relationship with my parents and it is my job to educate them on how to help get their kids to the next level. That includes making sure they are not thought of as "meddling parents" to prospective college programs or professional organizations.

So far, I've never run a player off because of his parents. As a matter of fact, I've kept some in spite of their parents. Kids can't help it if their parents are knuckleheads. My post was to educate. If I struck a nerve with you, maybe you are guilty as charged. I deal with kids who want to play at the next level. I owe it to those families to do my best to help them in every way. Sometimes that means educating parents like you who have never been through the process. You can listen and get it or keep doing what you are doing.
 
Last edited by ncball January 10, 2009 1:39 PM
 
 
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January 10, 2009 1:46 PM

So you think if 2 players are being looked at the college coach is gonna think his daddy had a radar gun when he was in high school and clocked him while in the stands he is gonna not offer that kid?
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 1:51 PM

So by wanting to know whay your own kids pitching speed is gonna ruin his college baseball career?
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 1:58 PM

I honestly don't understand the sentence that you wrote. You might want to construct it properly. I think the gist of your question is this- If there are two pitchers that are equal and one of them has a dad in the stands clocking him, will the coach take the other kid? The answer very easily could be yes if he thinks this is a pattern of a meddling dad.

Coaches want (must have) full autonomy at the college level. They can't have outside influences affecting the structure of the team. That means they can't have parents involved unless it's something that has to do with the student-athlete outside of the team.
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 2:01 PM

Of course not! You are reading what you want to read. There's a tactful way to do it. If there are college coaches and pro scouts behing the fence, have somebody walk behind and take a look at the reading. If nobody's back there, go gun him yourself. My point is to not camp back there with coaches and scouts. They are doing a job and will see you as meddling.

quote:
Originally posted by love summer time ball:
So by wanting to know whay your own kids pitching speed is gonna ruin his college baseball career?
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 2:11 PM

The few times kids have been gunned by parents it is in the pressbox nobody can see them. The scouts or college Coaches seat right behind homeplate in the stands. I understand your point. I'm ending this right now. Thank You for your post.
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 2:15 PM

I have a stalker - and had a son that played in ncball's program.

The issue as I see it is when is it appropriate for me as a parent to use my stalker - and when is it not appropriate.

It is never appropriate for me to get behind home plate when the college coaches and pro scouts are there. They are there to do their job and they prefer to have their space (e.g. no parents sitting there looking over their shoulders, reading their notes, etc.)

It can be appropriate to use it during a HS game if no coaches or pros are there to watch - and if the HS coach either doesn't care or wants the numbers. I always asked first and then got it out of the car.

I found it to be most useful when 08Son had a pitching lesson and we were looking for things like difference between FB and CU.

08
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 2:20 PM

08Dad- Those are the perfect times to use the gun. Use it as a tool.
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 2:45 PM

Let me just say this. We picked up a kid a few years back. The first tourney we were at we noticed his dad standing behind the backstop with a radar gun and a stop watch. There were several college coaches in attendance as well. After the second game some of the coaches walked over to talk to us about some of our players. Then one of the coaches said "Who is that nut with the gun back there?" The rest of the coaches started laughing as well.

We told the player to talk to his dad and tell him to chill. Leave the gun at home and stay away from the coaches and scouts. The rest of the summer we constantly fielded questions from coaches about the dad. It is a serious red flag folks at our level of play. Its not the place for it. It makes you and your son look like clowns.
 
 
 
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January 10, 2009 5:28 PM

Coach May as I have posted many times the few times this has happened it is done in the pressbox where nobody can see it. Do you understand. We are not stirring scouts or coaches up and are not in eye view while doing this. I forgot a scout at a game gun was dead and found me I went home got my gun and let him use it he thanked me. Funny a dad with a gun helped out a scout.
 
Last edited by love summer time ball January 10, 2009 5:46 PM
 
 
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January 11, 2009 8:52 PM

I have been gunned 100's to 1000's of times and have never noticed a difference in the speeds between the two guns. I have the same top velocities on both guns. From what I have heard the stalker takes more readings than the Jugs does. Not sure if this is true, but the stalker takes around a thousand readings whereas the Jugs may only take a hundred or so.
 
 
 
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