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Long toss vs. actual pitching velocity

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GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wz8fvm:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?


There are way too many factors involved to be real accurate with velocity and long toss. Arm slot, height of player and arm, spin, angle, wind, etc. all effect how far a ball is thrown. Here the site you mention that measures balls thrown at different angles and velocities. I have found it to be fairly accurate (within a few mph)

simulator
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wz8fvm:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?


You can be the greatest long tosser in the world, but the worst pitcher. I don't hate long toss, but I feel that there are better uses of time. It doesn't replicate the act of pitching particularly well. I would say that long toss beyond about 200 feet is useless.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
There is a correlation to distance thrown to pitching velocity, but it varies due to wind, temperature, altitude, humidity and individual. One of the benefits to long tossing is that it gives you a way to measure your performance each time you go out. All you need is a field and a bucket of balls or a partner. I can’t actually think of a more effective way to get better at throwing a baseball than…D’Oh…throwing a baseball. Low finish is correct in that you can be the best long tosser in the world and the worst pitcher, but my experience is that the best long tossers typically are the best pitchers.
Last edited by BOF
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Long toss is for baseball players. The fact is the kids who are the best at long toss have the best arms. When your guys are on the field long tossing your best players will be long tossing together. They will be the ones with the best arms. And the guys that can throw to each other. The players that take the time to work on a consistent long toss program are the same guys that take the time to work harder in the cage. Take the time to work harder at the game. I don't know what others experience is with long toss outside of their own kids experience. But from my experience the players that long toss on a consistent basis simply have stronger arms than those that do not and have not. In fact its not even close. But that is just my experience with players over many years. If your experience leads you to see something different fine.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
Long toss is for baseball players. The fact is the kids who are the best at long toss have the best arms. When your guys are on the field long tossing your best players will be long tossing together. They will be the ones with the best arms. And the guys that can throw to each other. The players that take the time to work on a consistent long toss program are the same guys that take the time to work harder in the cage. Take the time to work harder at the game. I don't know what others experience is with long toss outside of their own kids experience. But from my experience the players that long toss on a consistent basis simply have stronger arms than those that do not and have not. In fact its not even close. But that is just my experience with players over many years. If your experience leads you to see something different fine.


It's so true. I too have noticed that the kids who wotk diligently on throwing and long-tossing have the best arms on the team. I was once quite skepticle of long toss until last year when my son really started taking it seriously. Almost immediately he added 5 mph to his fastball from the mound. Now it could be just coincidental....or it could be that long toss has merit. I know that it certainly hasn't hurt son's velocity or control one bit. My son doesn't do the whole crow hop very much in his long toss. He pretty much just winds up as if he was on the mound with leg kick and let's her fly.

Son also throws a lot of bullpens to work on velocity also. As to which is better- who knows, or who really cares. Personally I think doing both strengthens different parts of the body and improves different motions to a quicker more efficient form.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Almost immediately he added 5 mph to his fastball from the mound. Now it could be just coincidental....


I forgot how old your son is, but... mine added 10mph each year from 11-12, 12-13, and 13-14, and then has added 3 each year so far to 16 - without long-toss.

quote:
Son also throws a lot of bullpens to work on velocity also.


Mine too
Last edited by SultanofSwat
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I forgot how old your son is, but... mine added 10mph each year from 11-12, 12-13, and 13-14, and then has added 3 each year so far to 16 - without long-toss.

My son is 15 and will be a sophmore this fall. He has basically added right about 5 mph each year since he was 9 years old. He is now throwing in the low 80's. Last fall he jumped from the mid 70's to touching 80 after a few weeks of long toss. I don't know if it was just coincidental or what but you could see a noticable change almost overnight.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
Long toss is for baseball players. The fact is the kids who are the best at long toss have the best arms. When your guys are on the field long tossing your best players will be long tossing together. They will be the ones with the best arms. And the guys that can throw to each other. The players that take the time to work on a consistent long toss program are the same guys that take the time to work harder in the cage. Take the time to work harder at the game. I don't know what others experience is with long toss outside of their own kids experience. But from my experience the players that long toss on a consistent basis simply have stronger arms than those that do not and have not. In fact its not even close. But that is just my experience with players over many years. If your experience leads you to see something different fine.


Agree with this 100% and it's been my observation as well at every school I've coached at.

You have to understand that there is throwing and there is pitching. Long toss is throwing and pitching is pitching. With every athletic event or movement you want to do it with power. You want to throw the ball hard, you want to pitch the ball hard, you want to hit the ball hard, you want to have a running back hit the hole hard, you want a D-Lineman to fire off the ball hard, you want a basketball player to go for a rebound hard.....I think you get my message. In order to be able to do things hard you have to push yourself hard. It might be in the weightroom or it might be long tossing. Lifting weights correctly will help your arm strength but the overall best way to develop arm strength is to throw and throw far.

I'm not saying you get out there and you take the humongous crow hop, head jerks to the side and all that. Take a good fundamental throw but throw it as far as you can. Don't worry if it's so high you hit a low flying plane - just throw it hard.

For those of you who don't long toss and you want to use the increase in velocity that your son makes I think miss the point. Every person will get stronger as they grow up and there will be a gain in MPH on the mound. But the increase will be much more if they would long toss properly.

I've seen it work too many times for me not to believe in it. But remember you can't long toss for a week or even a month and expect to see real gains. It's got to be done regularly over a significant period of time.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
The number of LT days is very dependent on how often a player is pitching. If he is not pitching then he can LT every day. Most HS’ers have time issues so they can’t do this every day and the most serious throwers get in 5 days a week +/- a day or so. As far as rest goes AMSI suggests 90 days of “active rest” particularly if the player has had a full pitching load. Once you reach biological adulthood there is some discussion whether this is needed or not. FWIW, MLB pitchers are encouraged to rest and workout in the off-season.
G Goosegg10,000+ posts
Once the player decides that he likes LT and LT has become part of his workout routine, then his arm will dictate how often to do it. Sometimes he will want to do it every day; other times less often. That is in season as well as out of season. When done by a motivated player (for this purpose defined as one who has incorporated LT into his routine), he will often tell you how good "stretching out the arm" feels. My S often does LT the day after he throws in a game and the day before throwing in a game -- that routine isnt for every player; but a player should listen to his arm.
G Goosegg10,000+ posts
There is debate because many coaches try to equate long toss to pitching. Pitching is pitching. Long toss is long toss. If u do yeager type long toss - which my S does, you can't keep up pitching mechanics at 300+ feet. Long toss is for stretching out the arm and building up muscles which are supportive of pitching.

If you treat LT as part of the workout - training - routine, no confusion arises. (Like using bands - does the coach get confused that bands will effect pitching mechanics? The bands are simply part of a workout routine. Similarly, the player should recognize the differences and not bring his LT mechanics to the mound.)
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
From our experience: If you are going to long toss I highly recommend you pull the bands both before and after.


I am for this. I'm certainly not against it. Doing band work is an important part of training but I don't think it necessarily has to be done proximate to long-toss.
slottyslotty500+ posts
Interesting concept:

Well-respected D-I pitching coach told my son during a campus visit that his long toss philosphy was that when the player is coming in from the longest distance that the effort expended should be duplicated as closely as possible with each throw, as the distance decreases.

This make sense to me as I see a lot of players kinda half-a**ing it as they're getting closer, after they've reached their maximum distance.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
slotty,
That is what Jaeger advocates during the pull down phase. Personally, I believe the pull down phase is more for re-establishing the release point. Jaeger believes that the velocity gains occur when continuing to attempt to exercise max effort during the pull down. Personally, I believe the gains come from the throws at max distance and there may or may not be some transfer to the "normal" throwing motion made by continuing to throw hard while pulling down.

The ASMI long toss study, although flawed in it's conclusions due to improper measuring of the velocities during max distance long toss, pretty clearly showed that the max loads and therefore the max training occurred during max distance throwing.

I don't have any problem with max effort coming in as that probably helps with re-establishing the release point but I don't think it makes much if any difference with the velocity and that's the part I'd be most likely to cut short if the arm was starting to get fatigued.
N Ninthmanout10+ posts
Stands to reason the more arm speed you have the farther the ball will go. The more arm speed you have the harder you will pitch. The guy that can throw 300' will most likely have a faster fastball than a guy that can only throw 250'. But if he can't throw strikes it doesn't matter. That said, if you can make your arm stronger and faster by increasing your distance you can throw in long toss then you can pitch faster.
Last edited by Ninthmanout
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:

I am for this. I'm certainly not against it. Doing band work is an important part of training but I don't think it necessarily has to be done proximate to long-toss.

We can agree to have different opinions.

IMO, anytime is a good time to pull the bands, but he doesn't pick up a ball until he does, especially for long toss. Zero arm issues in two years and running now.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..


My son is a pretty good pitcher and he doesn't throw around 300 feet, and he told me that most of the pitchers don't throw that far as well. In the past year, I have seen ONE ML player (not pitcher) that threw consistantly well over 300 feet in a game, and I watch a lot of bb. So I was wondering if you could support your above statment with examples you have seen with your eyes or video of pitchers throwing 300 feet.

Are you confusing "tossing" with "throwing"?
Last edited by TPM
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
Not really sure I want to get caught in a TPM v. GBM peeing contest, but here goes. :-) According to Prof. Adair in The Physics of Baseball a baseball released at 90 mph, at an optimum angle of 35-40 degrees, will travel a little over 300 feet. Logically, most people who throw mid 90's should be able to throw well over 300 feet, though an adjustment to release paint will be necessary.

Just because a pitcher with a 95 mph arm doesn't throw 300 feet doesn't mean he can't. Many college and MLB programs still believe that pitchers should "long toss" at 150-200 feet. However, from what I have read a good number of MLB teams have changed their philosophies in recent years. The Rangers, under Ryan's direction, have even hired Alan Jaeger as a consultant. Their pitchers are encouraged to max out distance wise. Don't know if it's true or not, but supposedly Bauer told teams that didn't believe in max out long toss not to draft him.

And FWIW, the current pitching coach at DK's former school encourages kids to max out. Most of them are in the 300 ft range, with some throwing considerably further.


quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..


My son is a pretty good pitcher and he doesn't throw around 300 feet, and he told me that most of the pitchers don't throw that far as well. In the past year, I have seen ONE ML player (not pitcher) that threw consistantly well over 300 feet in a game, and I watch a lot of bb. So I was wondering if you could support your above statment with examples you have seen with your eyes or video of pitchers throwing 300 feet.

Are you confusing "tossing" with "throwing"?
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..


My son is a pretty good pitcher and he doesn't throw around 300 feet, and he told me that most of the pitchers don't throw that far as well. In the past year, I have seen ONE ML player (not pitcher) that threw consistantly well over 300 feet in a game, and I watch a lot of bb. So I was wondering if you could support your above statment with examples you have seen with your eyes or video of pitchers throwing 300 feet.

Are you confusing "tossing" with "throwing"?


Tossing with throwing? Are they not the same thing? Isn't the very definition of a "throw" also defined as a "toss"? Confusing for sure!

By throwing 300 feet I am not saying throwing on a line or doing something you would do in a game, I am saying like throwing a ball on the right angle as far as you can- you know- "long toss". A player who throws at about 34 degrees at a velocity in the 80's thus will be able to throw about 300 feet. Can your son nor his team mates not do that? I am sure they can! Perhaps you are confused. My son can throw a ball in the air right around 300 feet. The three kids who graduated last year from our team who all now play small college ball also can throw a ball in the air around 300 feet. The three other current pitchers who are decent on our team now also can throw a ball in the air around 300 feet.

(BTW, I live at an elevation over 4000 feet and that would have a slight difference on the flight of a ball- thinner air equalling about a +20' over sea level thrown balls.)

I think you may have misunderstood me.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
I've been playing long toss with my son for the past three weeks. The majority of his baseball pals have already begun school, so he's stuck with his old man that can barely toss beyond 150FT (50 yard line) now before the bucket of balls comes into play. The wind, elevation, humidity, etc...has been mentioned regarding the effect on distances, but the type of baseballs thrown come into play too. I've noticed that he can grab one ball out of the bucket and chuck it 315+ feet, and grab the next one and toss it 285. When you're playing long toss with balls that are also used for batting practice, you never know what you'll get? FWIW, his college pitching coach emailed the incoming/returning pitchers, and his suggested program was to throw four days a week (3 days long tossing, incl. hat drill, some flat ground work, and 1 day per week in the pen). I'll be going out to the football field with him later this afternoon for our last LT session. He'll rest on Thursday, and have one more 40 pitch bully on Friday before the bored kid finally leaves for school this weekend.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
My son's pitching instructor wasn't able to long toss 300'. I believe he's capable of doing so during the season but at that point in time he wasn't able to. He's got a low 3/4 arm slot which tends to reduce long toss distance. I understand that he tops out at about 93 mph off the mound and that he had an ERA around 2.5 this season in AAA.

There are some pitchers who just don't long toss far relative to their pitching velocity for whatever reason.

TPM,
I've seen plenty of pitchers who threw 300'+ and I wouldn't be surprised if your son could throw 300'+ if he wanted to. Plenty of you-tube video of Bauer, et al throwing well over 300' and I've seen him and many others do it personally. Some of the ones I've seen are not yet what I'd call a good pitcher relative to someone in the higher levels of pro ball.
Last edited by CADad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..


So if throw and toss are the same, then you are saying that you have yet to see a good pitcher who can't toss around 300 feet. I am sure there are plenty of good pitchers out there that cannot or don't toss (throw) 300 feet or even hit 90.

CADad,
There is an assumption that the harder one throws than the farther one can, but I question the validity of that (except in theory). DK does not throw or toss 300 feet, never has and probably never will. I don't question that you have seen pitchers throw or toss 300feet, I know you know what you are talking about.

MTH,
Son didn't work with the pitching coach who is now at Clemson, but rather someone else who advocates that toss is and should be pitcher specific, he trains 90,120,150 and if a pitcher wants may go longer. I am going to make an assumption that is because many pitcher lose their mechanics after a specific distance and more load is placed upon the shoulder and elbow. I know sons orgainzation allows pitchers to do what makes them feel most comfortable with as probably most do.

Vector,
Not sure of why you posted that site, no one is denying that long toss should not be part of their training program. According to my understanding some question maxing out, that's ok, as explained to me all pitchers are different and all approach their training differently.

Correct me if wrong but doesn't ASMI question whether the safe loads placed upon the arm, elbow and shoulder decreases as the feet increases?

Now I am not talking about chucking it (which is not necessarily a safe thing to always is it) but more for serious training.
Last edited by TPM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..


So if throw and toss are the same, then you are saying that you have yet to see a good pitcher who can't toss around 300 feet. I am sure there are plenty of good pitchers out there that cannot or don't toss (throw) 300 feet or even hit 90.


Sure, there are plenty of pitcher's who "don't" try to throw 300 feet but I am certain they can. All that changes is the release angle of the ball. In general, the mechanics are pretty much the same. It all comes down to arm speed. I am sure that if your son tried, with a little practice, he could throw the ball probably about 320 feet just based off of his velocity from the mound.

When my son long tosses he very seldom throws it at the angle to throw it 300 feet. He will usually only make 2-3 throws at that angle and distance. Generally he works up to about 250-275 feet throwing between 20-30 degrees. When he pitches- the day he pitches he works up to only about 150 feet throwing on a line at only a 5-10 degree angle.
BumBum1,000+ posts
TPM, I can tell you definitively that Bum, Jr. threw 305+ his senior year in h.s. I measured his top at 317. I know this because he really hit long-toss hard in the fall (after summer ball) and I would drive him down to the football field to throw. He'd go end zone to end zone.

I think it is important to get the right exit angle on the throw to max distance. It is perfectly understandable that a kid like your son could throw 92-93 MPH and still not throw 300+, if his exit angle is lower.

There is another factor, and that's elevation. Some of these kids are from mountain states and they will definitely throw farther (all other factors equal) than a kid from sea-level Florida.

Bottom line is, get the Stalker out!

Hope that makes sense.
Last edited by Bum
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bum:
TPM, I can tell you definitively that Bum, Jr. threw 305+ his senior year in h.s. I measured his top at 317. I know this because he really hit long-toss hard in the fall (after summer ball) and I would drive him down to the football field to throw. He'd go end zone to end zone.
[QUOTE]

I beleive you and what you posted proves my point. Unless someone was there with a pitcher when they were tossing, how would one know who could, who does, toss 300 feet? Especailly at the college or pro level, you have to be there to see their workout. In theory can a pitcher who throws 92-93 from the mound throw 300ft? Maybe, but does he? How would you know that unless you were there to SEE IT?
There is no mention on the website that any one of those guys tosses 300 feet is there? The program is about incorporating bandwork, tossing, mental training as well. Pitchers mold their own programs.

The same for DK, who hits 96,97 maybe he could according to theory toss 300 ft, but he doesn't or do a lot of guys he works with, they toss but they do not hit the 300ft mark. It's just not necessary, to be a good pitcher, to hit 300ft is it?

So I would like to know where the the statement comes from that someone here has yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300ft.



No one argues the value of long toss. If a pitcher hits 97,98, 99 on the radar, it doesn't matter if he can toss 300ft or not, does it?
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:

So I would like to know where the the statement comes from that someone here has yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300ft.





That's right- beat it into the ground like any other thing I mention. I was making reference to my own personal experience with the kids whom I personally knew on our HS team, past and present. Every single one of the kids who threw in the 80's from the mound can also throw around 300 feet. Some a little less and some a little more. I have always seen mound velocity correlate with throwing distance.

Why debate this any longer?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
According to my understanding, if there is a correlation, if every single pitcher tossing 300 feet only threw in the 80's, perhaps they need to focus more on mound work rather than tossing.
Toss distance does not always correlate to mound velocity. There is alot more that goers into it for sure.
So in reality you can see pitchers tossing 300 feet who aren't very good on the mound, and those who are good on the mound not toss 300 feet.

That's why I commented on your statment.
Last edited by TPM
M MDteX10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
So in reality you can see pitchers tossing 300 feet who aren't very good on the mound, and those who are good on the mound not toss 300 feet.

That's why I commented on your statment.


And you can see good pitchers who can toss it 300 feet. I believe this is more common than your viewpoint.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
According to my understanding, if there is a correlation, if every single pitcher tossing 300 feet only threw in the 80's, perhaps they need to focus more on mound work rather than tossing.
Toss distance does not always correlate to mound velocity. There is alot more that goers into it for sure.
So in reality you can see pitchers tossing 300 feet who aren't very good on the mound, and those who are good on the mound not toss 300 feet.

That's why I commented on your statment.


What I was stating was that the good pitchers I know who have good velocity also can throw a ball a long ways. I have never seen any pitcher, who throws at least 80 from a 3/4 slot or higher, who can't throw a ball a considerable distance. Usually pitchers also make good outfielders. Why is that? because they can throw a ball a considerable distance (velocity).

That's all. Smile
BumBum1,000+ posts
You need to throw at least 87 MPH at optimum angle at sea level to throw 300 ft. 86 MPH at optimum angle at 1000 altitude to throw 300 ft. Not everyone who throws "80's" can throw 300 ft.

There is not necessarily a correlation between pitching hard and throwing for distance. Bum, Jr. threw long-toss for three obstensible purposes, all of which augmented his pitching ability but did not guarantee it (only pitching instruction, stuff and experience can do that):

1) Improve arm speed
2) Reinforce arm slot
3) Promote arm health

Don't confuse long-toss with pitching. There are long-tossers that can't pitch, pitchers that can't long-toss, and pitchers that can long-toss.
Last edited by Bum
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
Our field we play on is at about 4200 feet above sea level. At that height, one only has to throw 84 mph to throw 300 feet. At 80 mph the ball goes 280 feet which is still close to 300 feet. So anyways, in my neck of the woods, all of our pitchers whom I have seen throwing in the 80's who also throw long toss all throw around 300 feet give or take a few.

I honestly belive that there are some pitchers who flat bring it on the mound but who can't long toss with velocity very well and others who long toss very well but can't translate that velocity to the mound.

But, in general, I would tend to believe that the majority of pitchers with decent velocity can also toss a ball a long ways. Most of the mechanics and principles of physics stays the same except for release angle.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
BumBum1,000+ posts
GBM, 84 at sea level is 84 at 4000' +. Stalkers measure velocity at near-release. The distance is immaterial. Therefore, considering the variables (including exit angle) long-toss distance does not predict mound velocity. At 84, no D1 or pro scout would be interested. Just not hard enough.

While I agree that most kids with 90 MPH velocity can throw for distance, what does it matter if the kid is throwing 90 regardless?
Last edited by Bum
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
Bum,

I was only speaking of "decent" pitchers. I wasn't speaking of the "great" pitchers. In one of my posts I said that the 3 seniors who graduated last year and are now playing "small college ball" all throw around 300 feet- they are "decent pitchers", not "great" pitchers. There is a correlation generally speaking with decent or good, or even "great" pitchers with being able to throw a ball a considerable distance.

As for 84 not being good enough for D-1, I know that the University of Utah isn'a powerhouse D-1 or anything but they are still D-1. One of my sons fall teamates from last year just committed to there. He only throws 84 mph from the outfield. That is also basically what he throws from the mound.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
I'll chime in on this one a little. My son and a kid that he plays HS and summer ball with both throw roughly the same from the mound. My son is probably a couple MPH higher. Son throws mostly 85-87, on good days 86-88 and has touched 89 a couple of times. The other kid is 85-86 hitting 87 at times. I have seen them long toss before. Other kid can throw 300' pretty regular. When they go out that far, my son usually winds up 1 hopping it. Other kid throws more over the top, my son is more 3/4.

Personally, I kind of cringe when son attempts the 300' throws. I see his mechanics change and I worry about his elbow. I also know his mechanics are different when throwing in the field than from the mound. He plays SS and drops down a little more from the field than from the mound. The other kid has a cannon from the outfield, but my son has not played OF since before HS and even then it was limited. He has always thrown harder from the mound than from field as well.

Can my son throw 300'? I'm sure he can. Do I think it is a good thing for him? I'm not a certified pitching coach or anything, but I don't think it is good for him. Others may feel the same, I don't know. Maybe that's why some ML teams don't like their pitchers throwing that far. Just some of my thoughts.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
No question that some of the loads are highest with max distance long toss. The only question is why the loads are higher. The ASMI study concluded that the loads were higher for some reason other than throwing at a higher velocity during max distance long toss. The problem was that they measured the velocities incorrectly for the max distance long toss portion. There is a very real possibility that the velocities were actually several mph higher in the max distance long toss than they measured and higher than in any of the other forms of throwing. If so, then one could reasonably conclude that the reason the loads are higher during max distance long toss is that the velocities are higher. It would then follow that there was a training effect to be gained from max distance long toss. Just like always, the reward of possibly gaining velocity comes with the risk of higher loads on the arm during the max distance portion of the long toss.

I agree with Bum 100% on this. There's a trend for harder throwers to be able to throw further but I've seen big variations in long toss distance between pitchers of similar speeds.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
I'll chime in on this one a little. My son and a kid that he plays HS and summer ball with both throw roughly the same from the mound. My son is probably a couple MPH higher. Son throws mostly 85-87, on good days 86-88 and has touched 89 a couple of times. The other kid is 85-86 hitting 87 at times. I have seen them long toss before. Other kid can throw 300' pretty regular. When they go out that far, my son usually winds up 1 hopping it. Other kid throws more over the top, my son is more 3/4.

Personally, I kind of cringe when son attempts the 300' throws. I see his mechanics change and I worry about his elbow. I also know his mechanics are different when throwing in the field than from the mound. He plays SS and drops down a little more from the field than from the mound. The other kid has a cannon from the outfield, but my son has not played OF since before HS and even then it was limited. He has always thrown harder from the mound than from field as well.

Can my son throw 300'? I'm sure he can. Do I think it is a good thing for him? I'm not a certified pitching coach or anything, but I don't think it is good for him. Others may feel the same, I don't know. Maybe that's why some ML teams don't like their pitchers throwing that far. Just some of my thoughts.


My son, in college and in pro, basically did and still does what he is comofrtable with. He told me that he loses release point after certain feet and for him it's more about mechanics than gaining velocity.

Not too sure of all of this, other than whatever a player tosses, his pull down phase is just if not more important than the stretch phase.

IMO, there is no real value in being able to just chuck a ball 300 feet, whether you are decent, good or great.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:

IMO, there is no real value in being able to just chuck a ball 300 feet, whether you are decent, good or great.


I agree with this. I think, for a pitcher, if he starts to dramatically, or even minutely, change his mechanics while throwing, it could have negative implications. I don't disagree with having to participate in some kind of flat ground throwing program, but I don't think it NEEDS to be out to 300+ feet.

Each individual is different. For some it is probably fine and they will benefit from it. I also think for some it is not so good and may wind up hurting them in the long run.

I read about what CADad was referring to about the ASMI study. They basically said that throwing those long distances was harder on the arm than pitching from a mound. We can speculate that it is because of higher velocities, or whether it was altered mechanics used in order to throw further and with a different trajectory. The problem is, ASMI did not come to any conclusions as to why there was more force placed on the arm, only that it was.

Once again, I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I just think that for some, throwing that ball that far is not a necessity and may be a negative thing.
BumBum1,000+ posts
NDD, that's exactly right. It's near impossible.

If long-toss is "harmful", then where is the long line of players who say it has caused them injury?Funny that tons of pitchers at all levels swear by it and very, very few have ever said it caused them injury.

Why is throwing a baseball as hard as you can for distance more harmful than throwing as hard as you can from 60ft 6"? Doesn't make sense.

The key benefit of long-toss that flat ground doesn't offer is that it forces a player to speed up their arm. Chinese acrobats weren't born that way, they trained. You have to have genetics to throw 90 but I believe you can optimize your potential by learning how to speed up the arm.
Last edited by Bum
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
How can a player throw a ball 300' with bad mechanics?


I never said "bad" mechanics. I said their mechanics can change when trying to throw that far. Maybe I'm wrong, but a pitcher tries to throw as hard as he can while "staying within himself". Starters usually don't throw all out because they are expected to go longer. If you're trying to heave the ball as far as you can, I just think its likely that something will change in how you approach that throw. I hear all the time, and have seen it, when a pitcher tries to muscle up and throw as hard as they can, the pitch usually looses velocity. Is it not possible this can happen when trying to throw the ball as far as you possibly can?
N NDD100+ posts
My question wasn't specifically directed at you, I was just thinking out loud. That's why I didn't quote you and instead posted it as a stand alone post.

I hear all the time people saying baseball players should play different sports when young, I've seen pitching coaches have them throw footballs, etc.

How is this different?

If you look at the Jaeger video, they provide a pretty good explanation of the purpose of each phase and how to do it. Talks about staying loose and relaxed, etc.

If a player never "goes all out" throwing, how is he ever going to throw harder?
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
I hear all the time, and have seen it, when a pitcher tries to muscle up and throw as hard as they can, the pitch usually looses velocity.


Bum, Jr. never suffered from velocity issues due to long-toss. Just the opposite. Having said that, if a pro team told him tommorow he needed to pitch with his right arm and throw a tennis ball 20 feet against a wall to prep he'd do it.

None of this stuff needs to be dogmatic.
Last edited by Bum
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Since I have never seen a guy that could stride 7 feet pitch slower than 90 mph, shouldn't you try to lengthen your stride?


I am not sure of your point, but my opinion is good mechanics, lengthening stride, following a good toss program with bandwork, lots of lower body and core work, great off season conditioning, etc. is what makes a good pitcher a better one, not necessarily tossing the ball 300 feet.
Last edited by TPM
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
Just out of curiousity, was stride length something the Cards encouraged your son to work on? (My apologies if you already addressed this).

quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Since I have never seen a guy that could stride 7 feet pitch slower than 90 mph, shouldn't you try to lengthen your stride?


I am not sure of your point, but my opinion is good mechanics, lengthening stride, following a good toss program with bandwork, lots of lower body and core work, great off season conditioning, etc. is what makes a good pitcher a better one, not necessarily tossing the ball 300 feet.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
Just out of curiousity, was stride length something the Cards encouraged your son to work on? (My apologies if you already addressed this).


Son always had a long stride, mechanics much better after 3 years of college with Sully, basically I don't think that is something that his organization had to work on with him.

Why do you ask, do believe that a long stride is not necessary?
Last edited by TPM
BumBum1,000+ posts
Thinking about this thread I asked Bum, Jr. what his stride length was and he said it was measured at 6.5'.. about 110% of his height. Not bad for a kid who's 5'10 in shoes. Most pitchers are 80-85% of their height.

There is definitely a correlation between stride length and velocity but few do what it takes to enable themselves to get there. It takes tons of stretching, core, leg work, plyometrics and essentially "crotch" exercises. If you look at those kids with long strides athleticism is a common theme.
Last edited by Bum
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
There is definitely a correlation between stride length and velocity but few do what it takes to enable themselves to get there. It takes tons of stretching, core, leg work, plyometrics and essentially "crotch" exercises. If you look at those kids with long strides athleticism is a common theme.



While a longer stride is what you strive for, the stride should be as far as the body allows without losing mechanics.
I agree, takes a lot of work to condition those hip flexors as well.
DK's buddy was having hip flexor issues, which caused him to shorten stride which caused shoulder issue (more arm than body). Not good.
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
Quite the contrary. The only reason I ask is that stride is not something most people mention, unless someone has really stressed it to them. I asked the question about your son because I have seen Sully's pitching video and don't recall stride being a point of emphasis. Just thought it might have been something that the Cards were emphasizing.

Tom House says and I'm paraphrasing here, the brain will only let the body stride as far as strength and conditioning allow. So lengthing the stride will really require a lot of work.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, more and more guys seem to be preaching moving as far and as fast as possible. Some are really emphasizing pushing off (gasp), or as one guy calls it, triple extension. I generally don't put a lot of stock in the internet gurus, but if you get bored sometime go to the forum page on topvelocity.net. Listen to his analysis as he compares the guys who send in videos to MLB power pitchers. Interesting stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MTH:

Why do you ask, do believe that a long stride is not necessary?
birdman14birdman141,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
Thinking about this thread I asked Bum, Jr. what his stride length was and he said it was measured at 6.5'.. about 110% of his height. Not bad for a kid who's 5'10 in shoes. Most pitchers are 80-85% of their height.

There is definitely a correlation between stride length and velocity but few do what it takes to enable themselves to get there. It takes tons of stretching, core, leg work, plyometrics and essentially "crotch" exercises. If you look at those kids with long strides athleticism is a common theme.


Bum - I'm interested in your opinion about stride length. My son is 6'5", so using the 110% theory, his stride would need to be a around 7'. He is not anywhere near this.

What are some of the specific things your son did to improve his flexibility?
Last edited by birdman14
VectorVector1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:

Tom House says and I'm paraphrasing here, the brain will only let the body stride as far as strength and conditioning allow. So lengthing the stride will really require a lot of work.



I am glad you mentioned that because anyone can try to simulate a longer stride, but when it comes down to actually incorporating it into your game, you need the physical foundation to properly execute it.

It is the same principle as arm acceleration/deceleration. Your body in an effort to protect itself will only allow the arm to accelerate as fast as it can decelerate. So if you have a strong and developed front side, but no development in the backside decelerators, you lose speed and are susceptible to injury if you try to force it.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Don’t you just hate it when logic and science is introduced into an emotional discussion?

MTH, my son has taken lessons from a Cardinal pitcher who is friends and a cohort of TPM’s son and they worked on stride length a little in conjunction with a lot of other issues, mostly however about staying on line, closed and landing in the same place consistently. I concur (with a lot less knowledge) with Tom House on the stride length and strength. When my son was a scrawny long legged freshmen (fawn like) I used to stress about his stride length, and the coach we were working with looked at me and said “what makes you think his leg strength is going to support that? – relax dad it will lengthen out naturally as he gets bigger and stronger”
Last edited by BOF
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
Quite the contrary. The only reason I ask is that stride is not something most people mention, unless someone has really stressed it to them. I asked the question about your son because I have seen Sully's pitching video and don't recall stride being a point of emphasis. Just thought it might have been something that the Cards were emphasizing.

Tom House says and I'm paraphrasing here, the brain will only let the body stride as far as strength and conditioning allow. So lengthing the stride will really require a lot of work.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, more and more guys seem to be preaching moving as far and as fast as possible. Some are really emphasizing pushing off (gasp), or as one guy calls it, triple extension. I generally don't put a lot of stock in the internet gurus, but if you get bored sometime go to the forum page on topvelocity.net. Listen to his analysis as he compares the guys who send in videos to MLB power pitchers. Interesting stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MTH:

Why do you ask, do believe that a long stride is not necessary?


I don't think that I said that this was verbally mentioned, might or might not have been, I wasn't there, maybe something like the push/pull thing from the rubber, something you just don't verbally talk about but you have to stress the importance of conditioning those parts that will help with better mechanics. I just know that after three years with KO, things were a lost less sloppy. Smile I would venture to guess that son's stride is about 80-85% (perhaps 5% more due to body maturity and better cond) than in HS/college.
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by birdman14:
Bum - I'm interested in your opinion about stride length. My son is 6'5", so using the 110% theory, his stride would need to be a around 7'. He is not anywhere near this.

What are some of the specific things your son did to improve his flexibility?


As TPM alluded to stride length has a lot to do with a pitcher's base. Bum, Jr. is not tall and he weighs nearly 190 lbs. Counter-intuitively, he is not stocky either. A close look at his legs will explain how this is possible. He has strong, muscular legs yet a lean body mass.

A lot of that is genetic but he trains very hard to be in shape. He would go down to my health club 5-6x week in h.s. to run and stretch, did in-season and especially off-season plyometric work, etc. This is the starting point, but there is more to it. A pitcher can only stretch out as far as he can possibly rotate and maintain proper mechanics. So a strong core is absolutely KEY. Do tons of core work.. and combine this with proper pitching instruction. Because you can have a kid lengthen his stride without doing all the other stuff and you will have shoulder problems develop because his he'll be opening up too soon trying to catch up to his body or otherwise change his mechanics to compensate. Not good.

Core. Leg and crotch strength exercises. Plyometrics. Athleticism. Proper instruction. Like I said, it takes a lot. And it takes time! It is at least a two year process.

Finally, I should add it's probably unrealistic to ever expect your 6'5" son to have a long stride. (He probably doesn't need it.) Most of the guys that stride far relative to their height are shorter guys (e.g, Lincecum).
Last edited by Bum
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
Don’t you just hate it when logic and science is introduced into an emotional discussion?

MTH, my son has taken lessons from a Cardinal pitcher who is friends and a cohort of TPM’s son and they worked on stride length a little in conjunction with a lot of other issues, mostly however about staying on line, closed and landing in the same place consistently. I concur (with a lot less knowledge) with Tom House on the stride length and strength. When my son was a scrawny long legged freshmen (fawn like) I used to stress about his stride length, and the coach we were working with looked at me and said “what makes you think his leg strength is going to support that? – relax dad it will lengthen out naturally as he gets bigger and stronger”


I agree. We went to a camp two years ago when son was an 8th grader and the old wise pitching instructor said that both follow through and stride length improve with added maturity and strength. Over the last two years I have seen son increase both stride length and amount of upper body follow through naturally without him having to think about it. The added velocity due to skeletal maturity and muscle strength naturally make the body stride longer and allow more follow through with the upper body. I don't really worry about it so much now. My son strides about 90% of his height.
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
As I recall, even in high school he was on a conditioning program his dad designed for him. Just because he weighed 138 lbs. does not mean he was a "weakling."

And there's no way he could have that kind of stride and pitch effectively if he was a weakling.

Don't assume lack of strength just because a kid has an ectomorphic build.

quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Let me throw something in the fire... stride length has nothing to do with "strength" or "maturity" or your "core" or "arm acceleration".

Little Timmy was a 138 pound weakling in HS throwing 94 mph, with a huge stride.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
SOS:

You seem to bring little Timmy up a lot to describe what 100's, maybe 1,000's of other pitchers can't accomplish. The fact is that he is indeed a "freak" one of a kind pitcher.

I do not know him, but from what I have read Lincecom is actually not a weakling, as you seem to think he is. He is extremely athletic, can do handstands walking around the infield, and other athletic activities that others can't even come close to doing. Some have said he would have been an excellent gymnast. This means to me he is extremely strong in his core, his legs, all with a relatively low weight. Do not equate how much someone weighs to their “strength to weight ratio”.

This site is mostly about HS players, or at least on their way to and from HS ball. The facts are that smaller kids tend to develop their hand eye coordination earlier and their bodies fill out to support their frame earlier. IE core and leg strength. Like most here our experience is with our sons and I can say that my son (who is a college freshmen this year) is still probably a year away from filling out and being capable of supporting his frame properly. I will go dig out a picture from his freshmen year and show you what I mean. There is no way he could have supported his frame with the long and lanky legs he had at that time. So yes stride length has everything to do with do with "strength" or "maturity" or your "core". Arm acceleration maybe not so much.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
You seem to bring little Timmy up a lot to describe what 100's, maybe 1,000's of other pitchers can't accomplish. The fact is that he is indeed a "freak" one of a kind pitcher.

He's called a "freak" because he doesn't fit most people's ideas of how to pitch. Either he's a freak, or most people don't understand how velocity is generated. So, that's why I like to think about Timmy when I'm considering velocity improvements.


quote:

I do not know him, but from what I have read Lincecom is actually not a weakling, as you seem to think he is. He is extremely athletic, can do handstands walking around the infield, and other athletic activities that others can't even come close to doing.

I don't think he could bench much. Of course I have read the things you mentioned. Maybe pitchers should be doing handstands instead of LT? Smile

quote:
I could not find the one I was looking for but this gives you an idea that this kid was not going to be able to stride out and support the landing of a Lincecom, just not physically possible.

My son probably weighs less and he is up to 105% of height this week. He added the last 6 inches in a few weeks of practicing to increase his stride length. The first day he said "I can't go that far". The last day he said "That was easy".
Last edited by SultanofSwat
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
Most (not all) baseball people agree that a good LT program can increase distance and MPH. However, I don't thing anyone has ever done a study to determine exactly why those gains occur. I suspect that there could be several reasons, depending on the kid. The following are my opinions/speculations.

When some kids start LT their shoulders are their weak link. LT may help strengthen the shoulder, thereby giving them a few MPH. Would a good shoulder program work just as well? Perhaps.

SOme kids may have strong shoulders, but they simply aren't used to throwing hard. IMHO LT helps these kids loosen their arm actions up a bit, thereby adding a little velocity. (See Jaeger's site for more info).

Max distance LT tends to be a higher tempo, more aggressive movement. Players tend to go at hit harder with the legs than they would normally. I suspect this aggressive movement, this DRIVE, this intent to throw harder, helps build flexibility and strength in the core and legs. Personally, I think this is the main reason LT helps.

You state that you can increase your stride length by practicing and measuring. I would submit to you that when you do that you are building strength and flexibility, the same thing you do with LT.

Just my humble opinions.

quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
How is it that a kid can increase his LT distance in a few weeks without becoming "mature", or strengthening their "core" or increasing their "strength"?

Don't they increase their distance by "practicing to increase their distance"?

You can increase your stride length simply by practicing and measuring.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
My understanding also (same as BOF's) is that Lincecum is extremely athletic and an unusual competitor as well.

He's a great story but there are not too many like him, so it's hard to really use him as an example.

I agree with MTH's explanation of how LT increases arm strength. Would a good shoulder program work just as well? I'll bet it would.
BumBum1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I don't think he could bench much.


Bench pressing has nothing to do with athleticism. And certainly nothing to do with velocity. Some of the smallest guys in the world -- think Pacquiao or Bruce Lee -- are the most athletic and toughest.

Lincecum is no weakling. He is cut and a physical specimen. Don't confuse strength with power.
Last edited by Bum
J jdfromfla100+ posts
quote:
Would a good shoulder program work just as well? I'll bet it would.



I have to think that the holistic approach that is long toss would be more effective TPM, it's a concerted whole body attempt at "something"...just like you used to yell at the kids to get out of the house and play, you know it's better to be active, as a parent you sort of inherit that instinct. I still love it for how fun it is to chunk at distance with my kid, but just as the "shoulder program work" would help, this would help more, as it is an entire body experience in extending the bounds..so it is a mental approach thing as well as a physical approach thing..it ain't and never will be all there is and I'm afraid too many think it is just about "all there is", which on any level just isn't true if the goal is to develop a pitcher. I think that is why it seems so daggone controversial..as a portion of a training effort it is small potatos and shouldn't bug anyone, if it is "the whole taco"? Well you can definately knock holes in it.
I recommend it to every dad who wants to enjoy time with his kid, and any person who develops in the sport will encounter it...it doesn't bite..use it for how you can benefit and "worry" about something meaningful.
Last edited by jdfromfla
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
I believe, though I can't prove it, that Don Sutton had a stride length much less than 90% of his height. He wasn't too bad of a pitcher.

In general stride length helps with velocity but there are certainly limits that are different for each pitcher depending on their physical makeup.

When it comes to pitching shorter stride lengths could result in better breaking stuff for some pitchers and be more than enough to offset the velocity difference.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
When it comes to pitching shorter stride lengths could result in better breaking stuff for some pitchers and be more than enough to offset the velocity difference.


You may be right, but I would never tell a pitcher to give up velocity for better breaking stuff.

GBM,
You didn't get it....
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by jdfromfla:
Look at Fred being all timely and what not...this in desperate effort to save us all and return ever so slowly to the op...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N28_JsGS-VY


hum....so he is saying the faster the arm, the farther the ball goes...hum...interesting concept! So, If I want to throw harder, I have to actually speed up the arm and if I wnt to throw slower, I should slow down the arm...interesting!
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
J jdfromfla100+ posts
quote:
hum....so he is saying the faster the arm, the farther the ball goes...hum...interesting concept! So, If I want to throw harder, I have to actually speed up the arm and if I wnt to throw slower, I should slow down the arm...interesting!


So thats what he was talking about..imagine one of the most respected pitching coaches in college baseball being so simplistic....sure am glad you're here to help.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
So, how long have the two of you been married? ;-)


ROFLMAO, heaven forbid!


Wow, wouldn't that lead to the criminalization of marriage? Confused


I think the earth would split in half causing a chain reaction that would destroy all life in the universe. No one would be left to ever know what baseball even was!
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
So, how long have the two of you been married? ;-)


ROFLMAO, heaven forbid!


Wow, wouldn't that lead to the criminalization of marriage? Confused


I think the earth would split in half causing a chain reaction that would destroy all life in the universe. No one would be left to ever know what baseball even was!


And G-d said, let there be light, and there was and it was good.

Good thing because he had a lot of work to do!!!!

A new generation emerged of parents and coaches that felt that very young players needed to work harder on their FB, to throw curve balls or sliders was forbidden under a certain age (14) as was playing in multiple leagues and tournies on weekends, year round baseball was abandoned as was the bunt squeeze. Pitch counts were stictly adhered to, the LLWS was abolished. Wood bats only.

Anyone giving advice on why players had sore elbows without proper training were banished, their punishment to watch for eternity nothing but yankee and red sox games (no HD available for them).

Soon a new "breed" of pitchers emerged, ones that never had to go to the doctor for sore elbows or hurt shoulders, sore hips, all players learned early the importance of good mechanics and good core and lower body conditioning, pushing against the rubber was forbidden to speak about, and all pitches should come from the same slot as the FB was mandatory. Gyroballs didn't exist. The merits of LT still remained controversial. Dads were forbidden to coach their sons (no more DADDY BALL allowed)! Travel ball and costs were restricted according to age category and convenience of travel and scout location. This was established as helpful in avoiding over use. Playing other sports under a certain age was encouraged as were mandatory rest periods. Ratings and rankings were none existant.

It didn't matter how tall you were (or were not) or your velocity, as long as you played the game and worked hard to be your best, you were rewarded for your hard work and effort.

After all of this work was done and on the seventh day when G-d finally got some rest (either a saturday or a sunday take your pick), the Cubbies finally won the World Series! Eek
Last edited by TPM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
Very funny stuff, TPM. Only one question.. did God make umpires, too? Wink


OOPs!
Eventually the masses cried out and asked of the baseball G-d, "but who will watch over us and make sure that we follow the rules that you wish us to live by".

So therefore G-d created what was to eventually become the GREAT EVIL UMPIRE.
Last edited by TPM
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by MTH:
So, how long have the two of you been married? ;-)


ROFLMAO, heaven forbid!


Wow, wouldn't that lead to the criminalization of marriage? Confused


I think the earth would split in half causing a chain reaction that would destroy all life in the universe. No one would be left to ever know what baseball even was!


And G-d said, let there be light, and there was and it was good.

Good thing because he had a lot of work to do!!!!

A new generation emerged of parents and coaches that felt that very young players needed to work harder on their FB, to throw curve balls or sliders was forbidden under a certain age (14) as was playing in multiple leagues and tournies on weekends, year round baseball was abandoned as was the bunt squeeze. Pitch counts were stictly adhered to, the LLWS was abolished. Wood bats only.

Anyone giving advice on why players had sore elbows without proper training were banished, their punishment to watch for eternity nothing but yankee and red sox games (no HD available for them).

Soon a new "breed" of pitchers emerged, ones that never had to go to the doctor for sore elbows or hurt shoulders, sore hips, all players learned early the importance of good mechanics and good core and lower body conditioning, pushing against the rubber was forbidden to speak about, and all pitches should come from the same slot as the FB was mandatory. Gyroballs didn't exist. The merits of LT still remained controversial. Dads were forbidden to coach their sons (no more DADDY BALL allowed)! Travel ball and costs were restricted according to age category and convenience of travel and scout location. This was established as helpful in avoiding over use. Playing other sports under a certain age was encouraged as were mandatory rest periods. Ratings and rankings were none existant.

It didn't matter how tall you were (or were not) or your velocity, as long as you played the game and worked hard to be your best, you were rewarded for your hard work and effort.

After all of this work was done and on the seventh day when G-d finally got some rest (either a saturday or a sunday take your pick), the Cubbies finally won the World Series! Eek


Uh-oh... Someone who wants to change baseball for the better. She must be a witch!

Honestly though, great post. I don't agree with the not pushing off the rubber thing, but that's OK, and I don't think all pitches should come from the same slot as the fastball. But otherwise,
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I kind of tried to cover many of our discussions that we have had here with GBM's doomsday.

One question, why are you opposed to a pitcher throwing from same slot? What would be the necessity to do so?

My understanding has always been that every pitch should appear as if it were a FB. If a pitcher throws from different slots (different pitches) the better hitters recognize this. One can get away with it it as a youth pitcher, in HS, maybe college, but the buck usually stops there.

So, in reality you are saying if the pitcher has 3 pitches they all should come from different slots? How does that work?
Last edited by TPM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
I kind of tried to cover many of our discussions that we have had here with GBM's doomsday.

One question, why are you opposed to a pitcher throwing from same slot? What would be the necessity to do so?

My understanding has always been that every pitch should appear as if it were a FB. If a pitcher throws from different slots (different pitches) the better hitters recognize this. One can get away with it it as a youth pitcher, in HS, maybe college, but the buck usually stops there.

So, in reality you are saying if the pitcher has 3 pitches they all should come from different slots? How does that work?


TPM seems wholly unaware that-YES, even in the big leagues, on occasion, there are a few pitchers who change arm slots and can still throw all of their pitches from a different slot. Is it a normal thing that "all pitchers" do? NO, but it is true that even in the highest level of baseball competition you still have a few pitchers who are able to, and occasionally do change arm slots during a game.

TPM still refuses to believe this phenomenon and has since decryed the doom of poor GBM as being a heretic!
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
I kind of tried to cover many of our discussions that we have had here with GBM's doomsday.

One question, why are you opposed to a pitcher throwing from same slot? What would be the necessity to do so?

My understanding has always been that every pitch should appear as if it were a FB. If a pitcher throws from different slots (different pitches) the better hitters recognize this. One can get away with it it as a youth pitcher, in HS, maybe college, but the buck usually stops there.

So, in reality you are saying if the pitcher has 3 pitches they all should come from different slots? How does that work?


TPM seems wholly unaware that-YES, even in the big leagues, on occasion, there are a few pitchers who change arm slots and can still throw all of their pitches from a different slot. Is it a normal thing that "all pitchers" do? NO, but it is true that even in the highest level of baseball competition you still have a few pitchers who are able to, and occasionally do change arm slots during a game.

TPM still refuses to believe this phenomenon and has since decryed the doom of poor GBM as being a heretic!



What exactly are you refering to, throwing different pitches from different slots or the same pitch from different slots? That is something only a very very few can do and not recommended by most pitching coaches. If it's something you don't see done often (as you stated), there is a reason why, what would you suppose that reason is GBM?

Did I ever say I never saw it, please show me, however I can show where you said it was a good thing because your son did it.

Keep in mind we are not speaking about ML pitchers GBM (I just know you can't wait for your son to become one), we are speaking about pitchers on the youth level, not sure how many can actually be successful with too much going on with different mechanics.

DK threw from multiple slots in HS (he was fast and could get away with it), and it took his college pitching coach almost 3 years to correct and his AA coach had to recorrect as he was tipping his CU.

So if you are recommending it, I would as a parent (if reading this), take the advice from Kevin O'Sullivan and Dennis Martinez, over GBM from Idahooooooooo.
Last edited by TPM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
People from Idaho aren't smart?


I didn't say that you did, what is his experience?
14, 15 year olds? Is he a certified pitching coach, has he ever pitched himself ( if so at what level and when).

Is he going to refute what a former ML and the HC of UF instruct?

Again, if there are only a "few" who do it, why only a few?
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
I kind of tried to cover many of our discussions that we have had here with GBM's doomsday.

One question, why are you opposed to a pitcher throwing from same slot? What would be the necessity to do so?

My understanding has always been that every pitch should appear as if it were a FB. If a pitcher throws from different slots (different pitches) the better hitters recognize this. One can get away with it it as a youth pitcher, in HS, maybe college, but the buck usually stops there.

So, in reality you are saying if the pitcher has 3 pitches they all should come from different slots? How does that work?


No, I want several pitches to be thrown from each slot. Good pitchers should be able to throw several pitches from each arm slot (but then again, I was always taught the Johnny Sain method of pitching)
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
No, I want several pitches to be thrown from each slot. Good pitchers should be able to throw several pitches from each arm slot (but then again, I was always taught the Johnny Sain method of pitching)


I am not sure what you are saying, is it that a pitcher should use different angles? There are 4 angles (slots), overhand, high 3/4, low 3/4 and sidearm.

You are saying that a good pitcher should be using all of the above? How can that be?
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
No, I want several pitches to be thrown from each slot. Good pitchers should be able to throw several pitches from each arm slot (but then again, I was always taught the Johnny Sain method of pitching)


I am not sure what you are saying, is it that a pitcher should use different angles? There are 4 angles (slots), overhand, high 3/4, low 3/4 and sidearm.

You are saying that a good pitcher should be using all of the above? How can that be?


I believe that a pitcher should be able to release several pitches from different arm slots. For example, I'm a right hander who usually throws what would be considered overhand. My curve breaks more 12-6 when I throw overhand. My fastball drops more.

When I drop my arm down to low 3/4, my fastball is a little flatter, but it appears to be coming directly at the batter. My curve breaks more 2-8 than 12-6 or 1-7. If I have 3 pitches, but two arm slots to throw them from, I have 6 pitches (according to Ted Williams).
BumBum1,000+ posts
When my son was 16 he was trying to choose a travel team. The head coach of one team suggested to him he throw from three or four different arm slots.

That was the last time I let my son talk to that coach.

There may be some that can do it, but who? Most who can are side-armers. How many slots do the overwhelming majority of MLB pitchers throw from? One.

The reason is deception and a repeatable delivery. If you can throw 3-4 pitches and they all look like a fastball you're money in the bank.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
When my son was 16 he was trying to choose a travel team. The head coach of one team suggested to him he throw from three or four different arm slots.

That was the last time I let my son talk to that coach.

There may be some that can do it, but who? Most who can are side-armers. How many slots do the overwhelming majority of MLB pitchers throw from? One.

The reason is deception and a repeatable delivery. If you can throw 3-4 pitches and they all look like a fastball you're money in the bank.


Ever hear of Johnny Sain? He threw from several arm slots.

So did Satchel Paige (he only pitched what, 30 years)

Old-time pitchers did it. Since today's mechanical model is Roger Clemens, and he didn't do it, it isn't taught anymore.
L laflippin100+ posts
Back in 2009 I printed out the pitching staff rosters for all 30 MLB clubs and then went to gettyimages.com to view as many stills taken at or near release point as I could find for each of the ~400 active pitchers.

First, I was interested to know about how many sidearmers were pitching at that level and, second, I became interested to know how many pitchers showed clear evidence of pitching with more than one arm-slot.

The study had flaws, of course: There were photos at or near release point for only about 340 of the 415 - 420 active pitchers at the time, and in some cases there were only one or two usable photos of a given pitcher.

Nevertheless, at the time it looked as though about 10% of MLB pitchers were sidearmers, and perhaps 2% of MLB pitchers gave clear evidence of using two different arm-slots. There could be more than 2%, but I doubt if it is greatly different than that. I didn't see any evidence for pitchers with three distinct arm-slots.

Bum is right, the two-armslot guys almost always threw sidearm from one of them. Some, like Mike Meyers went submarine with their 2nd arm-slot. Others, like Bronson Arroyo went 3/4 with the "other" arm-slot.

It looked like Randy Johnson went side-arm when he threw the slider, low 3/4 when he threw the FB.

Ultimately, I personally agree with Bum...if a pitcher can command several pitches from one armslot/release point he is doing very well and should continue to refine that. Simple trigonometry shows how shockingly difficult it is for a pitcher to control the strike zone from just one "repeatable" release point.

I would never try to talk a young pitcher out of experimenting with his delivery, but on the other hand I wouldn't try to talk anyone into adopting "multiple arm-slots" either. It doesn't look like very many pitchers can control two different arm-slots, much less three.
Last edited by laflippin
J jdfromfla100+ posts
I think that it is true that single arm slot is the vast majority of mlb pitching, I'd postulate that, "if" you are a major leaguer who "regularly" change slots, you would be from latin America...ala Henandez cousins El Duque and Livan and Pedro..I think within their training experience, they were allowed to gain competance from differing arm slots..like Juan Marischall, Americans aren't allowed to vary in that way once they begin serious MLB runs...so by necessity and lack of conditioning "outside" of their "envelope", if they change they'll likely become injured...makes perfect sense.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
There are guys who throw from multiple arm slots with success because there will always be exceptions to every rule. They have this natural ability to be able to do things that most people cannot do. But you end up playing with fire when you try to turn what the exceptions can do into a rule.

Today our kicker was trying to connect on a 35 yard field goal in practice. He has the leg to do it but he was off today and the guy who coaches kickers was telling him something he was doing wrong. The kid was trying to say he couldn't do that and what he did would work. I finally heard enough of this and said "you've missed the last 5 attempts and aren't close. 10,000 kickers all over the nation do it the way coach is trying to tell you how to do it with success. You're obviously not the exception to the rule so do it the way he wants." He did and then made the next three.

Just because somebody can do something doesn't mean everyone can.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
Long toss is for baseball players. The fact is the kids who are the best at long toss have the best arms. When your guys are on the field long tossing your best players will be long tossing together. They will be the ones with the best arms. And the guys that can throw to each other. The players that take the time to work on a consistent long toss program are the same guys that take the time to work harder in the cage. Take the time to work harder at the game. I don't know what others experience is with long toss outside of their own kids experience. But from my experience the players that long toss on a consistent basis simply have stronger arms than those that do not and have not. In fact its not even close. But that is just my experience with players over many years. If your experience leads you to see something different fine.


I've got three that have been working on it for about a month now. They were doing it incorrectly so I had them watch the little 5 minute Jaeger video promotion. It worked. They are really getting in to it (bit of competition not too much) and they have added about 90 feet from when they started.

I was watching them today, relaxed, talking baseball playoffs, but working. What impressed me is how much their mechanics are smoothing out from it.

It was nice to see.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
You can use pitchf/x for this info, if a pitcher has multiple angles it will show up in his release.

Low,
What "used to be" didn't always mean it was better.


Disagree. Bob Gibson was better than Lincecum. Feller was better than Chapman. Hitting was better before Charley Lau and his nonsense theories came along. The game was different. The zone was larger, and the hitters had more space to cover.

Hitters had to think, and so did pitchers. It wasn't whoever has the best "stuff" or the best whatever wins. It was a cerebral game, and it took intelligence to know how to play. Read The Glory of Our Times if you haven't.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:


Disagree. Bob Gibson was better than Lincecum. Feller was better than Chapman. Hitting was better before Charley Lau and his nonsense theories came along. The game was different. The zone was larger, and the hitters had more space to cover.

Hitters had to think, and so did pitchers. It wasn't whoever has the best "stuff" or the best whatever wins. It was a cerebral game, and it took intelligence to know how to play. Read The Glory of Our Times if you haven't.
You saw Bob Gibson and Bob Feller pitch?

That post is self-contradictory.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Hitters had to think, and so did pitchers.


They don't do that now?

Gibson helps out in spring training for STL, it was a humbling expereince for son to sit in the dugout with him. These are the great players of the past that inspire young players, but who can or cannot say whether they or anyone else would be the same pitcher or hitter today that they were during that era?
Last edited by TPM
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Hitters had to think, and so did pitchers.


They don't do that now?

Gibson helps out in spring training for STL, it was a humbling expereince for son to sit in the dugout with him. These are the great players of the past that inspire young players, but who can or cannot say whether they or anyone else would be the same pitcher or hitter today that they were during that era?


It's not needed as much. In the old days, batters covered a strike zone from their armpits to the bottom of the knee caps. You had to anticipate where the ball was going to come in. We tell hitters today "Don't guess", and many of them don't hit very well.

There are some players who clearly do think out there, and I think they're the better players in the league. Gibson and Feller threw off 15 inch mounds (for the majority of Gibson's career, and Feller always threw off a 15 inch mound). The benefit to this was that high strikes dropped more, and low strikes dropped a lot more.

It's just like the push/pull off of the rubber argument. Good hitters push with their core muscles to move off of the ground. Good pitchers push with their core muscles to move off of the rubber.

I seem to have rambled... I think Feller and Gibson would be very good today, because they thought, rather than just pitched. I want guys who think playing for me.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:

It's not needed as much. In the old days, batters covered a strike zone from their armpits to the bottom of the knee caps. You had to anticipate where the ball was going to come in. We tell hitters today "Don't guess", and many of them don't hit very well.

There are some players who clearly do think out there, and I think they're the better players in the league. Gibson and Feller threw off 15 inch mounds (for the majority of Gibson's career, and Feller always threw off a 15 inch mound). The benefit to this was that high strikes dropped more, and low strikes dropped a lot more.

It's just like the push/pull off of the rubber argument. Good hitters push with their core muscles to move off of the ground. Good pitchers push with their core muscles to move off of the rubber.

I seem to have rambled... I think Feller and Gibson would be very good today, because they thought, rather than just pitched. I want guys who think playing for me.


Feller and Gibson would be good today because they both had + fastballs and were great pitchers. I saw Gibson pitch.

They weren't guessing then and they aren't guessing now. They are eliminating potentials and making educated estimates based on trends.

There were stupid ball players back then too.

You couldn't take two taped conversations from a dugout then and now and tell the difference except for current event references and perhaps some slang terms.
Last edited by NDD
R R3DM4N1310+ posts
@wz8fvm posted:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?
@wz8fvm posted:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?
@wz8fvm posted:
How does long tossing distance correspond to actual pitching velocity? Its much easiler to measure distance than to have a radar gun. I know there is a program from Florida State that equates distance to velocity but I have no idea how accurate it is. Any input?

I was long tossing 330-350 in highschool... However, on the mound I struggled to get my lower half to sync up. So my fastball was 88-92mph.... Which today with pitch fx and stat cast would be 92-95mph. We used crappy speed guns in the 1990s.... And clocked "plate speed"

JucoDadJucoDad5,000+ posts

I know this is an old thread but I thought I would chime... I'd wondered why my son's long toss didn't seem to match his mound or run and gun velocity? I believe the answer was reveled at golf galaxy. The kid can hit the crap out of a golf ball (can touch 130 MPH club head speed), but needs to use a driver that reduces backspin. It seems that too much backspin creates lift that bleeds velocity and distance by fighting gravity.  I think hard throwers with high spin rates have the same issue, the backspin robs overall distance.

R ReluctantO'sFan5,000+ posts
@JucoDad posted:

I know this is an old thread but I thought I would chime... I'd wondered why my son's long toss didn't seem to match his mound or run and gun velocity? I believe the answer was reveled at golf galaxy. The kid can hit the crap out of a golf ball (can touch 130 MPH club head speed), but needs to use a driver that reduces backspin. It seems that too much backspin creates lift that bleeds velocity and distance by fighting gravity.  I think hard throwers with high spin rates have the same issue, the backspin robs overall distance.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding (wasn't a physics major), but shouldn't backspin add to the overall distance? 

A adbono10,000+ posts
@ReluctantO'sFan posted:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding (wasn't a physics major), but shouldn't backspin add to the overall distance?

Yes, it absolutely does. Backspin adds to the carry whether it’s a hit ball or a thrown ball. The reason that kids post higher velo with turn & burns (or pull downs or whatever you want to call it) is that they make better use of their lower body when making those throws. They also aren’t thinking about mechanics. We use pull downs as a measure of potential and then try to get kids to take the same athletic movement to the mound. It’s easier said than done. It’s amazing how many kids are initially taught (as young kids) a slow and methodical pitching delivery. We have to get them to unlearn that and speed everything up and use their natural athletic ability.

JucoDadJucoDad5,000+ posts

@adbono I thought this too, but I’m going to disagree with you on this one. Backspin adds loft but not carry. I think of it this way, there’s an optimal loft angle for maximum distance and that angle can be achieved by release point alone. Backspin increases loft and transfers the balls forward energy upward and reduces overall carry. It’s easier to see with golf balls because the effect is magnified. This is why I believe that some hard throwers with high spin rates (like my kid) don’t have the same soft toss carry distance as softer throwers.  In golf reducing the backspin rate significantly increases your drive carry - I believe the physics are the same, but harder to visualize with a thrown baseball.
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A adbono10,000+ posts

@JucoDad, we are not going to agree on this one no matter how many graphs you post - and I don’t have the energy or the inclination for a debate on the issue. When it comes to theories about hitting I defer to higher authorities. In my case, it’s a former MLB player who has been a AA hitting instructor for the past 8 years with the Twins & the Cubs. According to him (and I agree) teaching “launch angle” is a very flawed approach that only works for a small percentage of elite hitters. A certain amount of backspin adds carry to a batted or a thrown baseball.

K K910,000+ posts

I remembered an interesting article about the effect of backspin on hitting from Fan Graphs. 

To summarize - balls hit with higher degrees of backspin tended to outperform others...they travelled further and resulted in a higher BABIP (batting average on ball in play).

However, players who more frequently hit balls with high backspin actually underperformed their peers overall. 

The explanation seems to be that high rates of backspin are associated with successfully hit balls, but that its hard to hit balls that way so players who use this approach have a lesser BABIP.

(Not offering any opinion of my own, just providing link)

https://community.fangraphs.co...-might-surprise-you/

JucoDadJucoDad5,000+ posts
@adbono posted:

@JucoDad, we are not going to agree on this one no matter how many graphs you post - and I don’t have the energy or the inclination for a debate on the issue. When it comes to theories about hitting I defer to higher authorities. In my case, it’s a former MLB player who has been a AA hitting instructor for the past 8 years with the Twins & the Cubs. According to him (and I agree) teaching “launch angle” is a very flawed approach that only works for a small percentage of elite hitters. A certain amount of backspin adds carry to a batted or a thrown baseball.

I’m discussing long toss and the anomaly I’ve noticed for several years. If you were to rank team member's velo off the mound and distance of carry in the air of long toss, the rankings would not be the same.

Some of it could be launch angle, I blew out my shoulder throwing popups – I know my son doesn’t throw long toss with much loft. However, in golf they have realized the Magnus effect (physics of backspin lift of a ball) helps to a point, but too much spin will reduce overall flight distance. What is too much spin? It depends on launch angle and velocity. This understanding has created the newish market for reduced spin divers and golf balls. I believe this applies to all spears with backspin.

I’ve always wondered why my son’s long toss carry did not reflect his velocity out of hand. I now believe his high spin rate (80 percentile) reduces the overall carry of his velocity out of hand (88 percentile). Just my opinion, but the logic works for me.

Buckeye 2015Buckeye 201510,000+ posts

My son did a lot of long toss starting when he was probably 10 years old.  He was a small kid by HS pitching standards (5-9, maybe 145 the first time he hit 90 on the mound).  He attributes a lot of his velo to long toss as he never really had a HS pitching coach....and hadn't seen a PC for a lesson since he was 13 or 14.   He also never touched a weight until he got to college.   He got to college and one day the guys were trying to throw balls over the LF fence from behind the plate.  He didn't clear it, but was the only one to hit the fence on the fly lol.

Last edited by Buckeye 2015
C Collinsclan1,000+ posts

I think both thoughts are correct.  The fundamental difference is the “fence”.  Hitters know backspin will absolutely help keep the ball in the air longer, ie. to clear the fence.  With no fence in golf, reducing spin allows for longer distances.  Keep in mind, I’m not very good at either sport!  Nor a scientist!  And, my opinion is worth about 2 cents.

A adbono10,000+ posts
@R3DM4N13 posted:

Im not familiar with this sites setup. Long toss will always corelate to speed to an extent..... Adbono, it's been awhile, but yes, I brought it😁

I’m not sure what you brought. I don’t disagree with your post. I’m a proponent of long toss. I just like to keep it around a distance of 120’ so the arm slot doesn’t change and the elbow doesn’t drop.

TimtheEnchanterTimtheEnchanter500+ posts
@Collinsclan posted:

I think both thoughts are correct.  The fundamental difference is the “fence”.  Hitters know backspin will absolutely help keep the ball in the air longer, ie. to clear the fence.  With no fence in golf, reducing spin allows for longer distances.  Keep in mind, I’m not very good at either sport!  Nor a scientist!  And, my opinion is worth about 2 cents.

@Collinsclan while your opinion is worth 2 cents... £ 0.015 pounds sterling to be more precise, Tim's opinion is worth $2,995 (£ 2,264 pounds sterling... the Brexit cost me but I digress) ...so if you sign up for Tim's school of flamethrowing at: https:/timschoolofflamthrowers.com and you will get the opinion of "Tim" so it will not matter if you are a scientist or not. Your sons flamethrowing distance or velocity will not change regardless of where he is.

Notice that my flamethrowing technique does not change does regardless of position and, like me Tim,  I can provide any pitcher the holy grail of pitching if they sign up for my Tim's school of flamethrowing...for $2,995.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...p;ab_channel=zabakka

@Consultant next time you decide to start a business I suggest you call me and we can start "Timcodegames" which will make you a much richer man. Also the high T drill means nothing to Tim.

@Buckeye 2015 Need I say more if your son had attended Tim's school of flamethrowing he would be pitching in the MLB at 12.

Tim

Last edited by TimtheEnchanter
A adbono10,000+ posts
@TimtheEnchanter posted:

@Collinsclan while your opinion is worth 2 cents... £ 0.015 pounds sterling to be more precise, Tim's opinion is worth $2,995 (£ 2,264 pounds sterling... the Brexit cost me but I digress) ...so if you sign up for Tim's school of flamethrowing at: https:/timschoolofflamthrowers.com and you will get the opinion of "Tim" so it will not matter if you are a scientist or not. Your sons flamethrowing distance or velocity will not change regardless of where he is.

Notice that my flamethrowing technique does not change does regardless of position and, like me Tim,  I can provide any pitcher the holy grail of pitching if they sign up for my Tim's school of flamethrowing...for $2,995.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...p;ab_channel=zabakka

@Consultant next time you decide to start a business I suggest you call me and we can start "Timcodegames" which will make you a much richer man. Also the high T drill means nothing to Tim.

@Buckeye 2015 Need I say more if your son had attended Tim's school of flamethrowing he would be pitching in the MLB at 12.

Tim

A post I can wholeheartedly agree with! Finally!!

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