Making sure pitching data for HS games gets posted.

Agree ... I do a lot of summer youth tournaments where the umpires are asked to record player # and innings pitched then submit that information to the tournament director.   Each state should have an easily accessible web site where the umpire can input the information.  They should also provide a call in number where the umpire can leave a message for a state / county employee if they do not have access.   The logistics need to be worked out and both coaches would need to agree to the numbers, but in the interest of fairness and consistency, a neutral paid party is the way to go.

We are not administrators, and this creates the potential for improper contact between participants and officials. It also potentially could run afoul of the definition of independent contractor.

Matt13 posted:

We are not administrators, and this creates the potential for improper contact between participants and officials. It also potentially could run afoul of the definition of independent contractor.

So, if the state association you umpire HS games in changes it’s pitching limitation rule to include saying the PU will get the pitch counts for each pitcher in the game and turn it in, you’ll quit umpiring HS baseball games? I hate to lose good umpires, but if you’re more concerned with making sure no improper contact takes place and your status as an independent contractor, you have to do what your integrity dictates and the game will have to find a way to go on without you.

I don't see any more contact than what happens at pre game - It seems pretty simple to me.  Through the game - you record the pitchers - something you need to do anyway -  at the end you call the managers to the plate -  review - "Visitors #32  3 innings - #24 2 innings - # 15 2 innings"   "home - # 7 , 7 innings"  Then when u get home log onto the web site and report the info.   As for the independent contractor... I am no tax lawyer, but you are paid to do a job, the definition and tasks of that job is defined by the employer.  The fact that there is one more requirement shouldn't change the employer / contractor relationship.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Matt13 posted:

We are not administrators, and this creates the potential for improper contact between participants and officials. It also potentially could run afoul of the definition of independent contractor.

 

So, if the state association you umpire HS games in changes it’s pitching limitation rule to include saying the PU will get the pitch counts for each pitcher in the game and turn it in, you’ll quit umpiring HS baseball games? I hate to lose good umpires, but if you’re more concerned with making sure no improper contact takes place and your status as an independent contractor, you have to do what your integrity dictates and the game will have to find a way to go on without you.

I already have, for the most part...but that's not important. I'm simply saying it's not a good idea.

Let's say this rule goes into effect. The state better also be ready for the increase in ejections and suspensions as coaches can't keep their mouths shut after games. There's a reason we get the hell out of Dodge after games--it's like the saying "nothing good happens after midnight."

NewUmpire posted:

I don't see any more contact than what happens at pre game - It seems pretty simple to me.  Through the game - you record the pitchers - something you need to do anyway -  at the end you call the managers to the plate -  review - "Visitors #32  3 innings - #24 2 innings - # 15 2 innings"   "home - # 7 , 7 innings"  Then when u get home log onto the web site and report the info.   As for the independent contractor... I am no tax lawyer, but you are paid to do a job, the definition and tasks of that job is defined by the employer.  The fact that there is one more requirement shouldn't change the employer / contractor relationship.

Umm...you realize you keep using the word employer...that's a pretty good indicator that this is not a contractual relationship. In bold, in particular, is why this is no longer independent contracting. That's almost verbatim one of the criteria that gets evaluated in determining if one is an employee or a contractor. We're already tiptoeing a line here--it's only because someone hasn't really raised a stink that we are still considered independent contractors (that's a huge reason that we have associations; it keeps the contracted parties at arm's length.) This would almost definitely tilt the decision to employee.

Little League has far more experience enforcing pitch count rules than all other organizations combined.  If I was implementing pitch count rules, I  would to to school on what has worked and not worked for them.  I don't know how much if any the procedure has changed since I left, but at the time I did umpires had no role.

My contract is with my umpire association, and I file game reports and evaluations with them.

If someone with whom I do not have a contractual relationship wants me to perform administrative tasks for them, they should not expect it to be done for free.

From an administrative point of view, it's an inefficient solution. The schools do not know in advance which officials will work their games, and they don't have a record afterward of who was assigned. Who does the state association call when they find out no report was filed for last weekend's game? And how would the association hold the non-compliant umpire responsible? Would the state association tell the school not to honor the association's invoice so the association would decline the official's invoice to them?

And what about associations that count pitches instead of innings? Do we want umpires counting pitches during games they're officiating? This would be chaos.

More important, player eligibility is fundamentally a school responsibility. This is akin to the rules limiting playing time by football players who suit up for both JV and varsity. The schools know the rules of the association. They can positively identify the players. They control when the players enter the game. They submit participation reports when required. They have the knowledge, authority, and control to be held accountable for performing the task correctly.

Would umpires stop working games over this issue? Some might. You'd be surprised how many umpires at any given time are weighing the compensation/enjoyment/satisfaction they derive against the travel/uniform expenses/fan abuse/coach abuse/spouse neglect. For many, a feather's weight more added to the hassle side of the balance could make them decide the whole enterprise just isn't worth it.

Not sure why entry into this hypothetical system has to be the responsibility of the umpire?  Have the coaches or scorekeepers agree on whatever is being reported after the game.  Have the home team report it.

If there is some sort of discrepancy, let the governing body handle it.  Why add more people into the mix?

Well said, Swamp.  

An added note.. when I site supervise for the tournament organizations that require umps to log innings and get both coaches to sign off at end-of-game, I find that most of the umps strongly dislike it, they are distracted from their primary functions and it does cause the occasional end-of-game friction that Matt13 warns of.  That's just with innings, not pitch count.

JCG posted:

Little League has far more experience enforcing pitch count rules than all other organizations combined.  If I was implementing pitch count rules, I  would to to school on what has worked and not worked for them.  I don't know how much if any the procedure has changed since I left, but at the time I did umpires had no role.

I love LLI and worked with them before, during, and after they instituted pitch counts limitations. I hate to burst your bubble, but they are the absolute worst organization to look to for policing and enforcement there is. They have no national control or awareness of what pitchers have done, no regional control or awareness, only a very very few districts that do it, and not even all leagues track what’s going on. When our league got going I set up a database for them and guess who called in the data? The umpires.

When you talk about doing something on a state level such as happens in HS, everything should be done so a coach in say SoCal can look up the numbers for a team he’s playing from NorCal. Umpires had and have no role in the LLI process because LLI has no accessible database. A main reason there’s so much angst about going to it in HS is much the same reason. Co has made an effort to collate the data by making it mandatory all teams use MaxPreps to track their data, but without having any way to make sure, it opens up the process for a lot of questions.

Rob T posted:

Not sure why entry into this hypothetical system has to be the responsibility of the umpire?  Have the coaches or scorekeepers agree on whatever is being reported after the game.  Have the home team report it.

If there is some sort of discrepancy, let the governing body handle it.  Why add more people into the mix?

That’s sounds great, but unless you’ve looked closely at the data coaches submit you couldn’t understand how haphazard that is. And the problem is the governing body hasn’t got a clue about how to handle it! That’s why there’s so much lead time prior to instituting them.

Stats4Gnats posted:

JCG posted:

Little League has far more experience enforcing pitch count rules than all other organizations combined.  If I was implementing pitch count rules, I  would to to school on what has worked and not worked for them.  I don't know how much if any the procedure has changed since I left, but at the time I did umpires had no role.

 

I love LLI and worked with them before, during, and after they instituted pitch counts limitations. I hate to burst your bubble, but they are the absolute worst organization to look to for policing and enforcement there is. They have no national control or awareness of what pitchers have done, no regional control or awareness, only a very very few districts that do it, and not even all leagues track what’s going on. When our league got going I set up a database for them and guess who called in the data? The umpires.

 

When you talk about doing something on a state level such as happens in HS, everything should be done so a coach in say SoCal can look up the numbers for a team he’s playing from NorCal. Umpires had and have no role in the LLI process because LLI has no accessible database. A main reason there’s so much angst about going to it in HS is much the same reason. Co has made an effort to collate the data by making it mandatory all teams use MaxPreps to track their data, but without having any way to make sure, it opens up the process for a lot of questions.

In our league, the SK for each team got the manager for each team to sign their version of the pitching affidavit, and those numbers were posted by the home team manager on a Google Drive spreadsheet for all to see.  Pretty damn simple, and we never really had any problems.  I don't know about other states, but I see no reason why leagues and sections in CA couldn't use pretty much the same system.  I see no reason to get the umps involved. Let them get out to the parking lot and those little folding changing stools they like so much. 

Swampboy,

If this was just something like reporting on what players were on the lineup card or how many RHRLOB there were I’d completely agree. But this is something that’s there for one reason only, to protect the health and safety of pitchers. Many of the umpires I’ve interviewed about it don’t see any big deal about another few minutes of effort for such a worthy cause. Some don’t like it but again would do it for such a worth reason.

Then there are others like yourself who seem to only look at being an official as a paycheck and want to be paid for everything they do. To tell the truth I couldn’t do that, but I can certainly understand those who want paid for it. If that’s how you truly feel, negotiate a new contract!

I don’t know what difference it would make who showed up to officiate a game. It would be a responsibility of the PU no matter who it was. The main problem with this stuff is that there’s never been any actual policing or enforcement, and it’s causing problems now because there may soon be some.

No one said or even implied the umpires should be counting anything, although that’s a bright red herring that gets thrown out.

This has nothing to do with eligibility! It’s strictly about health and safety. Like so many others you’re trying to make it about something it isn’t. Besides, in HS baseball it’s rare that umpires give scorers the information about who’s playing where.

I’d hate to lose even one official for any reason, but if it’s a choice between a protecting a player’s health and safety or keeping an official, I’m sorry the official’s gonna lose every time in my book. All the ones who don’t like it can go umpire SB or officiate other sports. Lord knows there’s shortages everywhere.

But right now it’s just a process of asking a lot of questions and trying to come up with something that will work. It may be that the umpires are asked to become part of the process or it may be some other tack is taken. I don’t really care how it’s accomplished, but I would hope it’s done a lot better than any of the states so far.

Then there are others like yourself who seem to only look at being an official as a paycheck and want to be paid for everything they do. To tell the truth I couldn’t do that, but I can certainly understand those who want paid for it. If that’s how you truly feel, negotiate a new contract!

Bookmark this comment on this thread so you can refer back to it the next time you wonder why you seem to rub literally everyone the wrong way.  

JCG posted:

Bookmark this comment on this thread so you can refer back to it the next time you wonder why you seem to rub literally everyone the wrong way.  

Why not put the entire quote in there so there’s some context rather than just pull a couple sentences out of an entire post? But even so, WTF is wrong with speaking the truth? I not only didn’t say he was wrong, I made sure to note that I understood his position but that I don’t share his feelings. Having grown up in a time and place where labor enjoyed the ability to renegotiate contracts, it’s natural to me to take the position that if you don’t think you’re being compensated correctly, you do that. Would it have sounded better to you for me to have said “If you don‘t like it, tough sh*#”?

You can attack me all you like for simply telling the truth and expressing my opinions. That doesn’t make me wrong nor you right. I put up with that kind of thing over and over again when LLI was switching to pitch counts and I was strongly supporting them. Or is it that your nose is out of joint because I took issue with your position about looking to LLI for guidance?

As I’ve said before, this is a very complex issue with emotions running high on both sides. The only way to resolve it is to be open to everyone’s opinions.

Let's get back on track...

Why not put the entire quote in there so there’s some context rather than just pull a couple sentences out of an entire post?

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha a million times hahahahahaha

But even so, WTF is wrong with speaking the truth? 

Cause he didn't say that?  Cause you said something offensive with no provocation or reason?

Anyway, you're right Matt.  I'm done.

And good luck with the pitch count issue Scorekeeper. I'm glad that the state association has chosen someone who cares deeply about the issue to coordinate its implementation.

Matt13 posted:

Let's get back on track...

Gladly.

Sorry I missed this post you made.

I already have, for the most part...but that's not important. I'm simply saying it's not a good idea.

Unfortunately there are no completely “good” ideas in how to implement pitch count limitations in HSB other than to recognize IPs aren’t a very good way to limit pitchers. Every idea has its good and bad points, and it takes a lot of discussion trying to weed out the worst of them and find the best.

Let's say this rule goes into effect. The state better also be ready for the increase in ejections and suspensions as coaches can't keep their mouths shut after games. There's a reason we get the hell out of Dodge after games--it's like the saying "nothing good happens after midnight."

I couldn’t agree more that there’s too much “jawing” going on not just after but during games as well. Maybe it isn’t the same everywhere, but in my experience most of the time it’s an assistant coach flappin’ his jaw that causes problems.

Here’s an ignorant question. How can an ejection take place after the contest is over? What the person being ejected being ejected from?

Recognizing there are certainly potential problems, I still don’t see why there’s no way possible to get the PU that very small amount of information. One of the LLI leagues around here has the umpires being given the number of pitches a pitcher threw as soon as he was replaced. Using that as a template, after a game the number of pitches would only be needed for the last pitcher on each team. Even on a bad day and huge inning it wouldn’t take me more than a couple minutes to get that information. But not everyone counts pitches the same way or at the same time.

One of the most prevalent ideas has been to have the scorers count pitches after every inning and resolve any differences. That would certainly cut down any additional time after a game. One place I heard of had a form of some kind that was filled out as the game went on by the OSK. The scorers would meet after every inning or pitching change and come up with a number agreed on by both. The form would be handed to the umpire at the end of the game and s/he would turn it in to the appropriate authority.

It’s really unfortunate that there’s never been a very good policing system in place, because now that more people have been educated about the importance of protecting pitchers and want a good system, it has to be developed almost from scratch. Whatever system is finally decided on is very likely going to center around some kind of database that has the date, the names of every pitcher who pitched in the game, and the number of pitches he threw. Some states are using MaxPreps or some service like it.

The problem isn’t developing the database or who maintains it, whether or not the pitches can be counted and validated, or who gets that information to the database. The problem is how to do that in the most efficient manner, and the problem lies in there being so many different perspectives.

I’ve said over and over again that to me the most efficient method would be to make scorers paid and officials, and be assigned the same way umpires are. Then the entire mess is turned over to them. They keep the score, they count the pitches, and they turn in the data to the database. That’s what I’ve been doing for going on 15 years now, and it works well. The coaches don’t have to spend one second messing around with it and neither do the umpires or anyone else. But I daresay you won’t find more than 30,000 volunteers every season willing to do that for nothing. So in lieu of not paying SKs, who else can be counted on to do it with as few worries about bias as possible.

It’s difficult to change the way a huge bureaucracy like HS baseball operates, but somehow it’s gonna happen.

Stats, 

Do you really think I umpire for the money?  I could make more money with cheaper uniforms, more predictable hours, and less wear and tear on my car by delivering pizzas--and everybody would be glad to see me when I did my job under difficult conditions.

After deducting the costs of equipment, training, travel to training, and other authorized expenses, umpiring netted me about 1% of my income for the year. 

My umpiring is a mix of community service to baseball and a hobby that pays for itself. 

I'm not going to play your game of point-by-point refutation. Nobody reads or cares about arguments after about the first "reply with quote." You've proven you have uncommon endurance in these contests, but it doesn't persuade anyone of anything. 

You floated an idea. The people who would be most affected by its implementation don't like it. You don't seem to care.

CabbageDad:

I can't imagine how fun it must be for an umpire to have to get a coach to sign something after the game.

Last night, I worked a 16U game. Bottom of the 6th inning, beyond the time cutoff for starting a new inning. Ties are permitted. Home team trails by one run. Two outs. Runners on second and third. This particular venue had a local rule prohibiting head first slides into home plate--like most local rules, it was carelessly written and sometimes raises more questions than it addresses.

Base hit to shallow left field. Runner from third scores easily to tie the game. Runner from second attempts to score. Throw is well up the line and slightly in foul territory. Runner arrives in vicinity of catcher just as ball does, alters course to the left to avoid the collision (not to avoid a tag--catcher was still in the act of receiving the ball) and then, depending on your point of view,  a) planted his left foot to regain his homeward bound track and dove head first across home plate, or b) stumbled as he passed the catcher and fell across the plate. 

My partner initially called him safe. Then the visitor coach asked him to enforce the local rule against the head first slide. So my partner changed his ruling and called him out. Then the home coach came out and argued that it was a trip, not a head first slide. 

At that point, my partner asked me for help. I told him that the ambiguity of the "No head-first slides into home plate" rule meant he had to use his judgment to decide on the definition of a head-first slide, whether it matters if it is intentional or the result of a trip, and whether what he saw was a head-first slide as he understands the term. 

If he rules it's a trip or a stumble and not a head-first slide, the run counts, the game is over, and the home team wins.

If he rules it's a head-first slide, the runner is out, the game is over, and it's a tie.

So at your tournament, he has to make the game-ending call and then go hat in hand to an unhappy coach, wading into his post-game conference, and ask him to sign something? Yeah, that should work out just fine. I don't see any problem with that.

P.S. He called him out.

Swampboy posted:

Stats, 

Do you really think I umpire for the money?  I could make more money with cheaper uniforms, more predictable hours, and less wear and tear on my car by delivering pizzas--and everybody would be glad to see me when I did my job under difficult conditions.

After deducting the costs of equipment, training, travel to training, and other authorized expenses, umpiring netted me about 1% of my income for the year. 

I don’t know why you umpire for such little compensation, but I assume there's some kind of love for the game making you do it. Why do you think I spend more time per game than you for nothing but a team hat? Other than the uniforms, I have the same costs and don't get mileage to help offset the wear and tear on my car.

My umpiring is a mix of community service to baseball and a hobby that pays for itself. 

I'm not going to play your game of point-by-point refutation. Nobody reads or cares about arguments after about the first "reply with quote." You've proven you have uncommon endurance in these contests, but it doesn't persuade anyone of anything. 

You floated an idea. The people who would be most affected by its implementation don't like it. You don't seem to care.

No Swamp, the people who would be most affected haven’t said they don’t like it. To be sure, some have indeed, but there are many of those people who don’t feel the same way. You’re trying to make it sound as though every umpire in the world hates the idea and that just isn’t the truth. Back close to the time LLI was getting ready to implement PCs I “floated” the same idea in several different officials’ forums and although the percentage of umpires who didn’t like it was much higher than now, it still wasn’t anything close to universal.

So if you were the king of baseball and you knew there was a movement to not only go to PCs,  but to make the system work well and actually police what was going on, how would you do it?

Swampboy posted:

…So at your tournament, he has to make the game-ending call and then go hat in hand to an unhappy coach, wading into his post-game conference, and ask him to sign something? Yeah, that should work out just fine. I don't see any problem with that….

Why do you try to equate what happens in tournaments with what happens in the HS regular season? And why do you insist the umpire would have to have any contact with the HC in order to get the pitch count, let alone “wade into his post-game conference, and ask him to sign something”?

You’re trying to set the situation to the very worst case as though it would be totally impossible that things would be put into place to minimize what you’re implying would take place regularly. If the scorers were giving the umpire the pitch counts every inning and for every pitcher, why would suddenly the umpire need to “go hat in hand to an unhappy coach”?

Stats4Gnats posted: 

So if you were the king of baseball and you knew there was a movement to not only go to PCs,  but to make the system work well and actually police what was going on, how would you do it?

Nobody is dumb enough to make me king of anything, and I'm smart enough to run away if anyone tries.

I would have the state associations work it out with their constituent members.

Is there a section in the rule book about pitch counts? ;-)

If an umpire doesn't do his/her job properly or fails to follow his/her associations policies, then the umpire won't continue to be assigned games. If I don't follow the proper procedures, trust me it gets back to the assignor really fast. Coaches seem to have  or find the "time" for this type of activity. If there was a mechanism for the umpire to provide the pitch count data, I have to believe that "some coaches" out there would be checking up on the umpire to make sure that he/she didn't screw him... If I enter the data wrong  or I'm given the wrong data and it affects the coach and his team, whose fault is that?

Don't place the onus on the umpire to provide data that is collected by coaches (or someone to whom the coach assigns). If a school, district, or state association has a policy stating that the coaches must provide the pitcher and pitch count data, but they choose not to within some prescribed time period, then they need to have a policy *with teeth* that provides a penalty.

Seems to me it's in the coaches' best interest to make sure accurate data is provided. As an umpire, I don't care. As a parent of pitchers, I care. Coaching youth baseball, I cared. Can numbers provided by anyone be fudged - sure. Other than some disinterested 3rd party collecting and recording the data, there isn't an easy answer. Having both teams provide the data is possible, but what happens when there's a discrepancy? Could one coach be trying to screw with another coach? Never happens, right ;-)  Also, who "assigns" that disinterested 3rd party? Surely that person cannot be "hired" by the school/district - someone will then question their loyalty. Parents do funny things when they feel their children are somehow "getting screwed" by "this guy" counting pitches...  

There is no easy answer, but I think the best solution is having the coach or someone he designates provide the data. Last thing I need at a pregame plate conference is, hey aren't you the guy that was here last time and screwed me over for our next game because you input the wrong pitch count for my closer? I'm certainly not chasing a coach after game. Unless there's an inning by inning count provided to me by someone, there's no way I'm running around get that answer. Also you have 60 seconds between innings to get me that number and don't interrupt me counting the 5  warm-up throws (or 8 for a new pitcher). 

JohnF,

Very thoughtful post that makes some very good points.

Although I’m guessing your question about the rule book was tongue-in-cheek, it does go right to the center of the discussion. The controversy started way back when 6-1-6 was put into the rule book. There wasn’t much research on the subject, but people knew something needed to be done. With so little science to work with, NFHS just foisted the problem off on the state assns and didn’t bother worrying about it. It was so ignored, until over 5 years ago when I spend weeks searching through every state assns’ governing documents to get the restriction for each state, there was no place anyone could go to in order to see what the state restrictions were.

Because there was nothing in the rule book other than 6-1-6, few states had any real mechanism in place to track what was going on or give coaches a way to check to see what had taken place. If a coach had a question about another team’s pitcher, all it could do was ask to see the scorebook and hope the game was in there. The whole thing was such a PITA, it was seldom used outside of the playoffs where everyone could see what took place by looking in the local paper. Also, it’s rare for coaches to accuse other coaches of something like that for what’s seen as a meaningless game.

But times have changed big time! There’s been a lot of studies done and with MLB backing the pitch count idea with PitchSmart. Because of that, even most diehard old farts have come to understand it’s about trying to mitigate health and safety issues for pitchers and nothing more. But there’s still no NFHS guidelines in place to put all the information to use, so everyone’s trying to twist a pitch count system to fit into the old IP system that never really worked. It’s like trying to play darts blindfolded after being spun around 4 or 5 times.

The whole thing relies on accurate information about the pitchers being made available to any policing function whether it be a formal one where automatic reports are sent to coaches with the information about the pitchers for both teams, or the coaches have the ability to check for themselves. The problem is figuring out the most efficient way to get that information from the scorebook to wherever it’s going to be stored for access.

As far as who has or can make the time, let’s face it, anyone who has to can do it. so the issue isn’t who can do it but rather who would do it in the most timely fashion and be most likely to do it correctly. As far as worrying about who would check up to make sure his team wasn’t being screwed, what difference does it make as long as the record can be easily corrected?

For a few years now, the umpires through Arbiter have been posting scores for most teams in our area, and they’ve done a great job. There’s no reason to believe they would do an equally great job of making sure the pitching data is captured. Sure the coaches could do it and that could be insured by an enforcing policy with “teeth”, but would that be the most efficient way of getting the job done?

Personally I think it would be much more beneficial to everyone to stop any problem before it started, and that would be relatively easy by making sure everyone has every pitcher’s eligibility beforehand. But to each his/her own.

In the end it’s in everyone’s best interest to make sure the system works and that would be made much easier by having accurate data. Could numbers be “fudged”? They sure can now because there’s absolutely nothing in place to police it.

Having both teams agree to the data after every inning or pitching change is how some already do it and that’s a system that makes the most sense to me. But all those things you point out about coaches screwing with each other would be reduced to almost nothing if the umpires did it.

You’re correct, there’s no easy answer, but there is a “best” available answer and it takes a lot of hard work to find it.

Stats4Gnats posted:

...

I’ve said over and over again that to me the most efficient method would be to make scorers paid and officials, and be assigned the same way umpires are. Then the entire mess is turned over to them. They keep the score, they count the pitches, and they turn in the data to the database. That’s what I’ve been doing for going on 15 years now, and it works well. The coaches don’t have to spend one second messing around with it and neither do the umpires or anyone else. But I daresay you won’t find more than 30,000 volunteers every season willing to do that for nothing. So in lieu of not paying SKs, who else can be counted on to do it with as few worries about bias as possible.

...

...  and, there's the real agenda. 

Swamp, your patience and composure are beyond admirable.

Any state, federation, league, etc., who wants pitch count regulations can require coaches to post pitch counts in MaxPreps within an agreed upon timeframe from end of game.  Any coach who sees a discrepancy from his count on an opposing pitcher can report to whoever the governing body is that is requiring the count.  A discrepancy would likely not need to be reported unless the violation brought the pitch count beyond set hurdles.  This would eliminate the need to report the inevitable "off by a few pitches" scenario.  The governing body could dictate parameters for penalty.  Possibilities would be forfeiture of games, ineligibility of players, etc.  Also, it wouldn't take long for habitual offenders to come to light.   That's all we really want here, isn't it?  Protection of the young players' arms.

We sure as heck don't need to pay SK's at every HS game in America to monitor pitch counts.  I would much rather pay the volunteer person running the snack bar or the person coordinating our other fundraisers that help us perpetuate our program.

Heck, I have the boys keep a book in the dugout and some of the parents keep score on their phones just for fun. 

Exactly right Cabbage.  As I said upstream, go to school on Little League. In our league, at the time that I left, after a a game was over, volunteer scorekeepers for each team would go to the managers of both team, wait for them to catch their breath in their post-game meeting, and get the manager's initials for the pitch counts for both teams.   The managers would keep counts in the dugouts as well, so if there was any disagreement over the numbers (and you're right it's just the thresholds that count) they could be hashed out then and there, pitch by pitch in the scorebooks if necessary.  But 99.99% of the time there is no disagreement, the managers sign off, and the numbers are uploaded.  For HS ball, it really doesn't matter if the official book is maintained by a parent volunteer, a bench player, or a Scorekeeper with a stipend.  The same thing should work just fine. It's not rocket science.

cabbagedad posted:

...  and, there's the real agenda.

What are you saying the “agenda” is, and for what reason?

JCG posted:

…But 99.99% of the time there is no disagreement, the managers sign off, and the numbers are uploaded. …

Uploaded to where and for what? There is no national or regional LLI place to load it to, few if any districts, and not a lot of leagues because there’s no requirement for it.

cabbagedad,

What you propose would certainly work in a perfect world, and has been tried by some organizations. Whether it works or not can be seen by no national governing power adopting it as the template for its program.

You’re 100% right. There’s no need to pay SKs when there’s already officials being paid who could easily take care of the problem of making sure the data gets posted.

The way you make sure the book is kept is exactly why so many people believe in the uselessness of any stats. You don’t think they have any value so you don’t make sure the book is kept correctly. That’s why there’s so little faith by those actually being charged with trying to implement a health/safety program to trust your system.

Protection of the health and safety of players is indeed the goal, so why not do EVERYTHING reasonable to make that happen? I guess it all depends on one’s definition of reasonable. Your definition and mine are definitely at odds, aren’t they?

Stats4Gnats posted:

 

Protection of the health and safety of players is indeed the goal, so why not do EVERYTHING reasonable to make that happen? 

 

The difference of opinion is over whether we ought to do "EVERYTHING reasonable" or "everything REASONABLE."

By the way, the case book section on 6.1.6 says, "It is not an official's responsibility to determine if a team has violated a state association's pitching restriction policy."  

The things I write down in the course of a game--substitutions, mound visits, courtesy runners, written warnings to coaches, etc.--support decisions I may make at some point later in the game or document actions I took that may need to be reported, such as disqualifications.  If I'm not going to make any rulings on pitching restrictions, I don't care to write down information pertaining to the rule.

Stats4Gnats posted:

JCG posted:

…But 99.99% of the time there is no disagreement, the managers sign off, and the numbers are uploaded. …

 

Uploaded to where and for what? There is no national or regional LLI place to load it to, few if any districts, and not a lot of leagues because there’s no requirement for it.

 

Great. So we agree that gathering the pitch counts after each game can be a simple process that doesn't require umpires to get involved or scorekeepers to be paid.  As for storage, as I said above, for a local league a Google spreadsheet is plenty.  To manage a one CIF section you would need a little more than that, but it wouldn't have to be a big job. I could build something myself in MySQL for what my section spends on office supplies.

Swampboy posted:

The difference of opinion is over whether we ought to do "EVERYTHING reasonable" or "everything REASONABLE."

By the way, the case book section on 6.1.6 says, "It is not an official's responsibility to determine if a team has violated a state association's pitching restriction policy."  

The things I write down in the course of a game--substitutions, mound visits, courtesy runners, written warnings to coaches, etc.--support decisions I may make at some point later in the game or document actions I took that may need to be reported, such as disqualifications.  If I'm not going to make any rulings on pitching restrictions, I don't care to write down information pertaining to the rule.

OK I give up. Yours is the one and only correct interpretation of reasonable and no one else is entitled to have their own view.

Yes, that’s what the case book says. Did you ever wonder why when it’s a rule? I asked and was told it was because they had no way of knowing what every states’ policy would be and left it up to the state to come up with a policing policy, which to my knowledge none had.

But all that aside, I agree with you that umpires shouldn’t be responsible for determining whether a state’s pitching restriction policy was violated, but never said any different.

This will likely come off sounding snarky but I don’t know how else to say it. If you already have a pitcher’s name written down as having been a legal pitcher, how much more difficult would it be to put a 1, 2, or 3 digit number alongside that name?

Look, I get it! You don’t want to change. That’s OK and I can respect it because it’s your right. But that’s not the same thing as you’re not wanting to change is in the best interest of the players or the game. I’m not an umpire, but I can’t picture myself ever refusing to do something as miniscule as writing down a 3 digit number in order to possible save a young persons’ health. Maybe it’s because I’m disabled that I have that view and want to see everything possible done to stop anyone else from getting injured, especially a young person. We all have our different views and reasons for them.

JCG posted:

Great. So we agree that gathering the pitch counts after each game can be a simple process that doesn't require umpires to get involved or scorekeepers to be paid.  As for storage, as I said above, for a local league a Google spreadsheet is plenty.  To manage a one CIF section you would need a little more than that, but it wouldn't have to be a big job. I could build something myself in MySQL for what my section spends on office supplies.

Why are you so hung up on SKs getting paid?

There’s absolutely no need for you or anyone else to look for a way or a place to store the information. MaxPreps already does it for any HS in the nation, and it’s a free service. Yes, gathering and validating the information CAN be a simple process, but as far as I’m concerned having the umpires submit it is currently the best way to keep the bias, game playing, cheating, and laziness out of the process.

If it was going to take an hour for every game I would argue that it was a burden that should either be compensated for of done away with. Heck, if it was going to take a half-hour or 15 minutes a game I’d feel the same way. But I’ve been doing this stuff a very long time and I know it can be done in a lot less time than that.

So what’s the problem with looking at all the possibilities?

We agree that there should be pitch count limits in HS baseball. We seem to agree that managing the pitch count data should be fairly easily.

You feel umpires should collect the pitch count data.  

After "looking at all the possibilities", I disagree.   I hope that's ok.

Whoever gets the job of implementing such rules will make their own determination.

Stats, once again, you are distorting what people say and making arguments unnecessarily personal. 

This thread is closed. 

Everyone who wants to argue about how state associations might implement pitching restrictions has had a chance to weigh in.