Branson Baseball posted:Fall roster size can be an issue with D1. Not limited there... It's good to know whether a player is entering a tryout meat market or is really being given a chance to compete in the Spring.
That's a very good point and one I hadn't considered. Finding that information might require talking to people with inside information since most schools aren't going to publish that anywhere.
Thank you to all the posters on this thread. So many things to start thinking about over the next few years. So much experience here and I appreciate getting a head's up about what questions to ask and what kind of research to do in the future.
TPM posted:I think there was something similarly discussed a while back.
Most NAIA, D3, D2 as well as Juco programs are all over recruited. The most athletic money goes to those who will make an impact immediately, juco or D1 transfers.
All the others basically provide revenue.
They can keep as many as they wish on roster. FWIW, more programs are instituting JV programs for revenue, not so much for much else.
Bingo... All you have to do is research roster sizes over the years from these programs. Should not be a surprise. Just need to do a little homework
MidAtlanticDad posted:Branson Baseball posted:Fall roster size can be an issue with D1. Not limited there... It's good to know whether a player is entering a tryout meat market or is really being given a chance to compete in the Spring.
That's a very good point and one I hadn't considered. Finding that information might require talking to people with inside information since most schools aren't going to publish that anywhere.
Funny story related to this. I find it humorous anyway. Local D3 (couple of hours away I consider that local) gets a new head coach. this coaches first year he recruits my son very hard. My son decides to go elsewhere. Next fall and I am perusing the rosters of teams that recruited my son. Most of the fall rosters have bubkus, No freshman on the roster or still the same roster as last year. I get to the schools roster in question and what do I see, Fifty, that is right the big Five Oh, and guess what, that is the number of Freshman listed. They had another 10 to 20 upper class-men listed as well.
That roster stayed up for about 24 hours before it was removed. My guess is the SID asked the coach, for his roster and the coach gave him the full roster, not thinking twice. But I bet when he saw the roster listed he moved quickly to have it removed. The roster ended up some where in the mid 30's to 40's total. He was reasonably successful that year, and has done well to build a good program in that conference. He was a heck of a recruiter, but my son said his story was just too good to be true, when comparing what he heard form other programs. Every other program said they saw him as a PO, but he would get an opportunity to compete for a position in the fall. And to a tee they all said that by sophomore or junior year he would be a pitcher only. That is where they felt his potential was. When asked this coach said, I will let you decide, if you want to hit you can be a position player and if you want to pitch you can be a pitcher. You can probably do both. He said everything up to and just short of, "you will start ,your freshman year. He did not help himself when he said I know my players and you can probably beat out every one of them. While it was flattering to hear, it was kind of worrisome that he was talking about the players that way.
Son went somewhere else. Now I do not know if he still has that many show up for the fall, I kind of doubt it because I believe I would have heard more. I know quite a few players who have gone there the last few years. It was probably one of those, bring in his guys and clear out the old coaches.
Everyday Dad posted:TPM posted:I think there was something similarly discussed a while back.
Most NAIA, D3, D2 as well as Juco programs are all over recruited. The most athletic money goes to those who will make an impact immediately, juco or D1 transfers.
All the others basically provide revenue.
They can keep as many as they wish on roster. FWIW, more programs are instituting JV programs for revenue, not so much for much else.
Bingo... All you have to do is research roster sizes over the years from these programs. Should not be a surprise. Just need to do a little homework
You want to look at more than just roster size, How many players does the program lose each year, not due to graduation. How many Freshman do not return for a second year. I tracked every school in my sons conference to see. I was surprised by the results.
BishopLeftiesDad posted:Everyday Dad posted:TPM posted:I think there was something similarly discussed a while back.
Most NAIA, D3, D2 as well as Juco programs are all over recruited. The most athletic money goes to those who will make an impact immediately, juco or D1 transfers.
All the others basically provide revenue.
They can keep as many as they wish on roster. FWIW, more programs are instituting JV programs for revenue, not so much for much else.
Bingo... All you have to do is research roster sizes over the years from these programs. Should not be a surprise. Just need to do a little homework
You want to look at more than just roster size, How many players does the program lose each year, not due to graduation. How many Freshman do not return for a second year. I tracked every school in my sons conference to see. I was surprised by the results.
Yes, excellent point
2020dad posted:Two take aways here. First if we didn't already realize that D2 and D3 sports can be tuition gatherers then I think we buried our head in the sand long ago. Second this further illustrates the point that if you just want to say you played college ball you can. Using the word 'play' loosely of course. But good for that kid. Maybe he has a love for the game and just is happy practicing and being around it.
I know a kid who was an all conference basketball guard in high school. He was recruited by D2's and D3's. He chose to walk on at a D1 powerhouse. His decision generated a lot of WTF's. He would never see the court except maybe the last two minutes of a 40 point blowout.
What people didn't understand is the kid was thinking past college ball. He wanted to become a basketball coach. He wanted to learn from one of the best college coaches in the country who had also been an NBA coach.
The kid was a good practice player and scout team performer for the program. His GPA was good for the team's APR. He's now a graduate assistant with an NCAA championship ring.
The kid's goals entering college may not have been high enough. He was thinking teacher and high school coach. Now he's thinking bigger. He's a graduate assistant in a major program with a coach who is very connected throughout the NCAA and NBA.
MidAtlanticDad posted:CmassRHPDad posted:Of the current D1s where the interest level toward my son seems highest, the rosters are +/- 30 with a handful of red shirts each. We are looking at year to year rosters to see whether players stick around for 4 years, to check for level of commitment from both the player and the school.
Roster size isn't really an issue with D1 since there is a hard limit of 35.
There won't be fifty player rosters. But there might be thirty-seven on a fall roster due to two players who decided not to sign after junior year. It means two players are about to get the shock/screwing of a lifetime (up to this point in their life).
Branson Baseball posted:Fall roster size can be an issue with D1. Not limited there... It's good to know whether a player is entering a tryout meat market or is really being given a chance to compete in the Spring.
CMass, you've already highlighted things like roster churn and Go44 has noted a few other good things to look at.
We just had the opportunity for a do over with our oldest in the recruiting process, this time as a transfer. One thing we did not do enough of the first time around was get references on the coaching staff from former/current players and families, watch practices and games, etc.
Seeing how a coaching staff operates in game and practice situations is really important IMHO. It's very different being recruited when everyone is on their best behavior. My oldest guy loved a certain coach who was a back slapper and very engaging in the recruiting process. At practices and in games, he was a screamer and a control freak who didn't let his assistants coach. We were stunned.
Similarly, how much a coaching staff emphasizes and supports academics and personal issues is really unknown when you're in the recruiting process. Lots of lip service the first time around. This time we got references and we rigorously vetted the coaching staffs on their approaches.
No guarantees of course. But we were much better at our homework this time around.
It's important to determine if a coach's emphasis on education is about wanting his players eligible or what's in the player's best interest long term.
RJM posted:2020dad posted:Two take aways here. First if we didn't already realize that D2 and D3 sports can be tuition gatherers then I think we buried our head in the sand long ago. Second this further illustrates the point that if you just want to say you played college ball you can. Using the word 'play' loosely of course. But good for that kid. Maybe he has a love for the game and just is happy practicing and being around it.
I know a kid who was an all conference basketball guard in high school. He was recruited by D2's and D3's. He chose to walk on at a D1 powerhouse. His decision generated a lot of WTF's. He would never see the court except maybe the last two minutes of a 40 point blowout.
D1 basketball is really a different animal. Only 8 or 9 guys are going to get any PT at all, but schools can offer up to 13 full scholarships. There aren't enough great players to go around, so very few "starter" level players are willing to sit the bench even at top programs. That makes for a big drop-off after the 9th guy. If you've ever seen Monmouth's "famous" bench players, they're worth the price of admission (well, a student ticket anyway). I know at least one of those guys, who got no playing time, was on scholarship. They're like a very important practice squad.
As you say, there can be many benefits beyond just playing time.
MidAtlanticDad posted:RJM posted:2020dad posted:Two take aways here. First if we didn't already realize that D2 and D3 sports can be tuition gatherers then I think we buried our head in the sand long ago. Second this further illustrates the point that if you just want to say you played college ball you can. Using the word 'play' loosely of course. But good for that kid. Maybe he has a love for the game and just is happy practicing and being around it.
I know a kid who was an all conference basketball guard in high school. He was recruited by D2's and D3's. He chose to walk on at a D1 powerhouse. His decision generated a lot of WTF's. He would never see the court except maybe the last two minutes of a 40 point blowout.
D1 basketball is really a different animal. Only 8 or 9 guys are going to get any PT at all, but schools can offer up to 13 full scholarships. There aren't enough great players to go around, so very few "starter" level players are willing to sit the bench even at top programs. That makes for a big drop-off after the 9th guy. If you've ever seen Monmouth's "famous" bench players, they're worth the price of admission (well, a student ticket anyway). I know at least one of those guys, who got no playing time, was on scholarship. They're like a very important practice squad.
As you say, there can be many benefits beyond just playing time.
I was one of those guys on a D1 basketball team. Let me tell you, it's a rough road. Not a minute of playing time, but all of the same time obligations (plus back then you weren't allowed to wok at all during the school year - so no pocket money, either). Like one of the earlier post stories, I did so to get to play under a legendary coach who then retired before I got to campus. I lasted one year before quitting and joining the Navy.
Branson Baseball posted:Fall roster size can be an issue with D1. Not limited there... It's good to know whether a player is entering a tryout meat market or is really being given a chance to compete in the Spring.
CMass, you've already highlighted things like roster churn and Go44 has noted a few other good things to look at.
We just had the opportunity for a do over with our oldest in the recruiting process, this time as a transfer. One thing we did not do enough of the first time around was get references on the coaching staff from former/current players and families, watch practices and games, etc.
Seeing how a coaching staff operates in game and practice situations is really important IMHO. It's very different being recruited when everyone is on their best behavior. My oldest guy loved a certain coach who was a back slapper and very engaging in the recruiting process. At practices and in games, he was a screamer and a control freak who didn't let his assistants coach. We were stunned.
Similarly, how much a coaching staff emphasizes and supports academics and personal issues is really unknown when you're in the recruiting process. Lots of lip service the first time around. This time we got references and we rigorously vetted the coaching staffs on their approaches.
No guarantees of course. But we were much better at our homework this time around.
Exactly how did you go about getting the references? Meeting parents at a game?
$tinky posted:Branson Baseball posted:Fall roster size can be an issue with D1. Not limited there... It's good to know whether a player is entering a tryout meat market or is really being given a chance to compete in the Spring.
CMass, you've already highlighted things like roster churn and Go44 has noted a few other good things to look at.
We just had the opportunity for a do over with our oldest in the recruiting process, this time as a transfer. One thing we did not do enough of the first time around was get references on the coaching staff from former/current players and families, watch practices and games, etc.
Seeing how a coaching staff operates in game and practice situations is really important IMHO. It's very different being recruited when everyone is on their best behavior. My oldest guy loved a certain coach who was a back slapper and very engaging in the recruiting process. At practices and in games, he was a screamer and a control freak who didn't let his assistants coach. We were stunned.
Similarly, how much a coaching staff emphasizes and supports academics and personal issues is really unknown when you're in the recruiting process. Lots of lip service the first time around. This time we got references and we rigorously vetted the coaching staffs on their approaches.
No guarantees of course. But we were much better at our homework this time around.
Exactly how did you go about getting the references? Meeting parents at a game?
All recruits and their folks should attend a game. If you know anything about how the game is played, you can pick up on a lot of positives as well as negatives. Coaching a game is a reflection of how the coach runs his program.
If the program is in your geographical region, your HS or travel coach can get information on the coaching staff, and the AD. If not close you will have to rely on perhaps companies like PG, or area scouts. I am a firm believer that players should be able to have family available to attend games.
Don't always assume that the best programs in the country have the nicest coaches. The better the program, the tougher the coaching staff will be on the players. How they go about that will differ according to how large the program is and the expectations placed upon the coaching staff.
Does the coaching staff do team building activities. I believe last years ACC Champs were successful due to Monte Lee's team building activities. Something I think he picked up from other successful coaches. Does the coach insist that the team players live together, eat together, study together as well as get in trouble together
. Once again, this is why the Cubs were so successful last year.
Lots of negative stuff to look out for but what about the positive stuff.
Here is a real good thing to look for. A lot of good coaches and managers have a plan. That plan involves a system. That system rarely changes, players do, but systems don't. That is across the board in all divisions, whether it be a D1 Vandy, a D2 Tampa, or a D3 Trinity. Pay more attention to stuff like that rather than who shows up in fall, or year to year rosters.
Just as the coach has a plan, when recruiting begins, you and your players must have as well. The better prepared the easier the process will be for all.
roothog66 posted:MidAtlanticDad posted:RJM posted:2020dad posted:Two take aways here. First if we didn't already realize that D2 and D3 sports can be tuition gatherers then I think we buried our head in the sand long ago. Second this further illustrates the point that if you just want to say you played college ball you can. Using the word 'play' loosely of course. But good for that kid. Maybe he has a love for the game and just is happy practicing and being around it.
I know a kid who was an all conference basketball guard in high school. He was recruited by D2's and D3's. He chose to walk on at a D1 powerhouse. His decision generated a lot of WTF's. He would never see the court except maybe the last two minutes of a 40 point blowout.
D1 basketball is really a different animal. Only 8 or 9 guys are going to get any PT at all, but schools can offer up to 13 full scholarships. There aren't enough great players to go around, so very few "starter" level players are willing to sit the bench even at top programs. That makes for a big drop-off after the 9th guy. If you've ever seen Monmouth's "famous" bench players, they're worth the price of admission (well, a student ticket anyway). I know at least one of those guys, who got no playing time, was on scholarship. They're like a very important practice squad.
As you say, there can be many benefits beyond just playing time.
I was one of those guys on a D1 basketball team. Let me tell you, it's a rough road. Not a minute of playing time, but all of the same time obligations (plus back then you weren't allowed to wok at all during the school year - so no pocket money, either). Like one of the earlier post stories, I did so to get to play under a legendary coach who then retired before I got to campus. I lasted one year before quitting and joining the Navy.
Read the book "Don't Put Me In Coach". It was written by the 13th player off Ohi* States (can't bring myself to type the states name -- Go Green) bench. He played on their last national championship team. Awesome and fun read.
cabbagedad posted:Part of my current work includes research of private colleges... so, of course, I will occasionally glance at the baseball programs
Just perused a NAIA roster in Arkansas... team is 8 games into the season, playing .500 ball, has 57 rostered players, 12 listed as redshirt. FIFTY SEVEN!!! Yes, they have a JV team but that full schedule has five dates.
Hmmm... wonder what their point of emphasis is?
Be careful out there, young recruits and parents of.
I went to a NAIA school now granted it was a long time ago but still lol. You have to look at a NAIA school differently than a NCAA one. It's more like a HS roster. Now I'm not saying this school isn't over recruiting because I don't know but NAIA is just different. You will have freshman and Sophmores on JV and juniors and seniors on varsity. Also if the athlete meets a minimum GPA or ACT score there atthletic aide doesn't count against the limit and it used to be pretty low standard. Also, at least when I played, other money could be used. So you could be on 50% athletic and 50% leadership scholorship (a BS scolly paid for by an alumi member) If I remember our roster was around 65 and all the recruited players were on a full ride one way or another. With that said only about half were recruited. The rest were walkons. They have a lot of walkons in NAIA. My first football practice there were 230 players there. There is a lot of money in NAIA for athletes if they are willing to go to one. And if your a basketball player they have the best post season tourney IMO of and sport at any level.
I am a big supporter of NAIA baseball and what it can offer players. Keep in mind there can be big differences from one college to the next.
Scotty, do you really believe your last sentence? NAIA basketball, the best post season tourney of any sport and any level? Wouldn't those be the post season of DI sports, not to mention things like MLB playoffs, NBA playoffs, NFL playoffs, etc.?
PGStaff posted:I am a big supporter of NAIA baseball and what it can offer players. Keep in mind there can be big differences from one college to the next.
Scotty, do you really believe your last sentence? NAIA basketball, the best post season tourney of any sport and any level? Wouldn't those be the post season of DI sports, not to mention things like MLB playoffs, NBA playoffs, NFL playoffs, etc.?
Not the level of play but the set up of the tournament. It's the same as the NCAA but done in one week. It used to be all in the same gym I don't know if it is now. It may suck for the players but it's pretty cool to watch. Win and play tomorrow lose and go home. No time for a lot of adjustments for the next team since it's the next day. I loved it the few times I got to go watch it.
