Notre Dame Prospects Camp

This doesn't have anything to do with the camp, but I met the head coach from notre dame yesterday at a tournament up here in the nw and found him to be a great guy that definitely knows what he is talking about. Not sure what grade you me son is in, but he did mention they were done looking at the 2018 class and have moved on to 2019 and 2020.

PNW,  if you don't mind sharing, What event were you at?

Baseball northwest senior northwest championships (2018-2020 grads). I have graduated but was watching some friends and was watching a game when he sat by me before we talked for about half an hour. 

pnw2017 posted:

but he did mention they were done looking at the 2018 class and have moved on to 2019 and 2020.

That's funny....He certainly didn't mention this in the the recent camp invite he sent my 2018?

pnw2017 posted:

This doesn't have anything to do with the camp, but I met the head coach from notre dame yesterday at a tournament up here in the nw and found him to be a great guy that definitely knows what he is talking about. Not sure what grade you me son is in, but he did mention they were done looking at the 2018 class and have moved on to 2019 and 2020.

That helps though, thanks.  My Kid is a 2021

It is a 3 day camp.  Their website isn't big on specifics though

The natives (alumni...me included) are restless with Coach Aoki.  He's had talent, including this year's draftees.  But he's not delivered.  Perhaps the move to the ACC has given him a slightly longer leash.  Perhaps our AD is weak (see the continued employment of Brian Kelly as an example).  I may be wrong, but another year as a bottom feeder and he could/should be gone.

Notre Dame is done with 2018's for sure.

Regarding the OP's question, it's a college camp that is similar to most college camps.  If you're looking for camp experience for your player and some instruction and the $ are burning a hole in your pocket and South Bend is a family vacation setting, then this one could fit the bill.  We didn't find it different than other camps.

Thanks Branson.  Typical combo of both instruction and game play?

Any other college camps that you would recommend or that you liked better?  

It was showcase, instruction, and games.

My guys did a couple college specific camps. These are primarily money makers for staff members.  While ND was recruiting my oldest, we really did the college camps very early in the process for the showcase experience in a low cost, off the radar setting.  UCSB out here fit the bill perfectly for that as it was about $100  

For instruction, we really liked Doyle in Florida which is not a college camp but is purely instruction and games  

Later in the process, my oldest did "college " camps at a specific school only if multiple schools from his vetted list were there, e.g., Harvard winter camp  

Branson Baseball posted:

The natives (alumni...me included) are restless with Coach Aoki.  He's had talent, including this year's draftees.  But he's not delivered.  Perhaps the move to the ACC has given him a slightly longer leash.  Perhaps our AD is weak (see the continued employment of Brian Kelly as an example).  I may be wrong, but another year as a bottom feeder and he could/should be gone.

Notre Dame is done with 2018's for sure.

Regarding the OP's question, it's a college camp that is similar to most college camps.  If you're looking for camp experience for your player and some instruction and the $ are burning a hole in your pocket and South Bend is a family vacation setting, then this one could fit the bill.  We didn't find it different than other camps.

 

I've seen Aoki during two camps the past 18 months.  What I saw was a guy resting on previous successes.  Absolutely zero engagement with athletes lighting up his special invite Pitcher.  (Yea, my son lit his prospect up twice, threw gas from SS and not nary a word).  Aoki was consistently engaged with coffee or donuts.  Complete joke to the program, and if I was a baseball alum he would have heard it.  Seriously, it wasn't even just him directly, it was the lack of leadership to his staff and current players.  Being at the camp was a joke.

They think they are the cats meow. Go Air Force.

Edit: I live in Chicago, love the fighting Irish, but to see this and be a baseball guy, with a kid that would prefer to play for Irish vs my Air Force was really disappointing.

I second Gov's take.  My 2017 went to the ND camp the Summer of 2016. Aoki walked around behind the home plate screen talking to his other coaches, talking to some people in the stands, etc.  He showed little to no interest to what the players on the field were doing.  I got the perception that even though there were 150+ kids at camp, he thought none of them would be good enough to play at Notre Dame.  The worst was on the final day, when all of the kids were brought back together, Aoki was nowhere to be found to thank the kids for coming, encourage them, etc.  It was the only college camp my 2017 attended where I saw so little of the head coach to make it obvious that this was nothing more than a money maker for the school and assistant coaches.  Then when 2017 never got any feedback weeks after the camp, he had to chase down an assistant who apologized that they overlooked it.  Just a bad experience all around.

I guess Notre Dame can get away with that approach, but I would not recommend it when there are so many other schools with more reasonably priced camps where the HC is actually engaged and a part of the camp.  Many of them may have already chosen their recruits elsewhere, but at least they made the effort to participate in the camp.

Interesting experiences at ND camp.  So, I'll contrast that with another ACC program camp.....UVA.  

My son attended a UVA camp when he was a high school sophomore back in 2007.  Coach O'Connor sat everybody down and spoke to the kids up close and personal.   It was a large crowd, but my son said he really felt like the Coach was talking to him.  He explained what the various stations would be doing and what he is looking for out of the campers.   He further explained that he has recruited from these camps but it is only one or two players per class....clearly setting expectations.    He introduced all the coaches from the various schools that would be running the skills stations and their backgrounds.  From this introduction, my son was able to connect with a PC from a school that would later recruit him and also later see him pitch against them in conference play for 4 years.  Coach O'Connor visited every station to make sure his camp was going smooth and to check on the campers.   At various times, he would make comments or suggestions.

So, this is the way a camp should be run and you can tell Coach O'Connor is a very detailed person.   He runs his camps the same way he runs his ACC program.....successfully and fully engaged.

Coach O'Connor was previously at Notre Dame.  We'd like him back as Head Coach.

I won't pile on Aoki any more than to say the recruiting of my son, who would have crawled to ND from California, was a complete cluster f$%#.  The haphazard and ridiculous communication and then the disbelief when my son went elsewhere. 

Jack $awbuck$, our illustrious AD, won't pull the trigger, but hopefully his successor will.

From my recall, other than when UNLV changed coaches and the HSBBW had a lengthy thread with many comments on the backlash from cutting nearly every player and those with an NLI, this is the very first thread which trashes a college coach, by name, and  for, what I view to be  very subjective  reasons. This thread is unlike the thread on the coaching change debacle  at UNLV. 

Personally, I think it is a shame.

My sincere apologies to all.  I should have kept my comments specific to the prospect camp.

infielddad posted:

From my recall, other than when UNLV changed coaches and the HSBBW had a lengthy thread with many comments on the backlash from cutting nearly every player and those with an NLI, this is the very first thread which trashes a college coach, by name, and  for, what I view to be  very subjective  reasons. This thread is unlike the thread on the coaching change debacle  at UNLV. 

Personally, I think it is a shame.

But it sounds like parents who are footing the bill for these camps don't feel it's a shame, they feel it is a sham. Let's face it, funding a college coach or three is what these camps are about, and they do it on the dreams of the kids who either think they may get noticed at these camps, or in my son's case someone who travels sometimes thousands of miles at great expense because a coach asked their travel team coach to see if they would come. When you get that interest as an underclassman from a program through your club team, it makes you feel it is genuine interest. Then you show up and they have no idea who you are...then you realize you just paid  ton of money for travel, lodging and food to put a few hundred dollars into a college program's budget. That is a shame, infield dad.

My advice to college coaches everywhere, don't contact a player either directly or through their travel ball coaches to come to a college camp unless you are at least will to say "hello, thanks for coming, we are glad you are giving us the chance to get a better look at you" to the kid. I have several friends now who are so sick of this college camp money grab that they are no longer going to attend any...and I am in that group. 

SanDiegoRealist posted:

infielddad posted:

From my recall, other than when UNLV changed coaches and the HSBBW had a lengthy thread with many comments on the backlash from cutting nearly every player and those with an NLI, this is the very first thread which trashes a college coach, by name, and  for, what I view to be  very subjective  reasons. This thread is unlike the thread on the coaching change debacle  at UNLV. 

Personally, I think it is a shame.

But it sounds like parents who are footing the bill for these camps don't feel it's a shame, they feel it is a sham. Let's face it, funding a college coach or three is what these camps are about, and they do it on the dreams of the kids who either think they may get noticed at these camps, or in my son's case someone who travels sometimes thousands of miles at great expense because a coach asked their travel team coach to see if they would come. When you get that interest as an underclassman from a program through your club team, it makes you feel it is genuine interest. Then you show up and they have no idea who you are...then you realize you just paid  ton of money for travel, lodging and food to put a few hundred dollars into a college program's budget. That is a shame, infield dad.

My advice to college coaches everywhere, don't contact a player either directly or through their travel ball coaches to come to a college camp unless you are at least will to say "hello, thanks for coming, we are glad you are giving us the chance to get a better look at you" to the kid. I have several friends now who are so sick of this college camp money grab that they are no longer going to attend any...and I am in that group. 

I am in that group too.

SDR, I have no particular issue with an assessment of the Camp.

You recently wrote in glowing terms of HeadFirst and not so much glowing about Stanford.

At no time did you drag individual coaches and names into the assessments, especially as it relates to the Stanford Camp. Your perspectives were subjective and personal (as they related to the experience and reception of your son).  But they focused on facts about each Camp (with the plus side you saw for your son and the downside you saw for him rather than naming specific coaches and how they may have interacted in a positive way or negative way through the camp process. )That is what this site is all about.

In my view, this thread went way beyond the camp. This thread  got very personal about the coach.

Personally, I think it is nuts to continually read about the $$$$ parents are spending with the "vision"  of getting their son recruited to a likely 25% (probably less in the vast majority of situations). In most situations, even the 25% is not guaranteed and in at least 1/3 of the situations, the 25% is gone after one year and so is the player.

Some parents want to revile in the process in which they all appear to be willing "victims," I don't have a big issue in them posting about their "angst" with the process while they fork over the $$$$.  My view is your comments have in focus one of the "culprits" and you give them a pass.

This site has never been a place for  critical comments of a specific coach of the type provided in this thread, including  advocating for that specific college coach to be fired (until now).

I think, personally, this is a bad day for the HSBBW if this now sets the bar for what is permissible posting.

Just for poops and giggles.  What do you think it's like for the college coaches that run these camps?  Ask yourself this question.  Will your son stand out in a crowd of 100 good HS varsity players?  Will it be obvious that he is the best player on the field?  If you can't answer that question confidently with a loud YES than the chances that he gets much of any attention at a college camp is very slim.  That is the quality of player a top D1 is looking for.  

From our family's perspective, a college camp is about having a fun Baseball experience and getting a chance to learn directly from college coaches and play on a college field.   Learn in some drills and get some innings of live playing action.

In my opinion (and I reserve the right to change my mind!) for an underclassman many (but not all) College Camps might be a better use of money than many (but not all) Travel Team tournaments.   At least you are getting instruction and drills along with game time and presumably, you'll get to play defense at your favorite position at the camp, too

For those who attend camps strictly to try to get a commitment I can understand the stress involved and the expectations.  Maybe I'm just weird but that wouldn't be our approach

real green posted:

Just for poops and giggles.  What do you think it's like for the college coaches that run these camps?  Ask yourself this question.  Will your son stand out in a crowd of 100 good HS varsity players?  Will it be obvious that he is the best player on the field?  If you can't answer that question confidently with a loud YES than the chances that he gets much of any attention at a college camp is very slim.  That is the quality of player a top D1 is looking for.  

 

Top D1 programs don't use their camps for recruiting. They use them to raise money for the asst coaches who often are not very well paid.  The more successful the D1 program, the more this is true - generally speaking.  Some mid-majors recruit from their camps a little bit.  But if you have not had prior contact from the coaches, and they have not personally asked you to attend, it is very unlikely that you will be noticed - no matter what you do. The only exception would be if you put up an eye popping measurable (like running a 6.3 sixty or throwing 95  - which may sound absurd but I saw a kid throw 95 from the OF at a showcase in Texas last weekend, so it happens)  A good rule of thumb is to look at the price of the camp.  The cheaper the price the more likely they are to be doing some recruiting.  

Been thinking about this subject broadly speaking for awhile now (various parties trying to take $ from families interested in their son's / daughter's sports).  I will try it out here.  This will come off too strong as I mostly lean the other way politically.  But youth sports (especially baseball) seem like the Wild Wild West for many families.  I see families at various events and it seems like they must have spent Junior's entire college fund pursuing a baseball dream, and it makes you wonder.  To each his own, I usually say, but try this out:

1.  Many laws exist to protect the little guy consumers, investors, etc.  The idea is not to protect the smart, big guy with the power. But, to protect the little guy who might need some extra protection from the government.  Think SEC, CFPB, FTC, many many ...

2.  In each case, you could make the argument that the laws are unnecessary because "they should have known better; bc I knew better."  Subprime mortgages anyone?

3.  Youth sports, and especially baseball, is full of opportunity take advantage of the little guy.  Are resources links HSBW available to help them figure these things out?  Yes.  But did each of us with our oldest son want to believe in all the messages we were receiving from travel coaches, instructors, college camps, etc?  Answer also is yes, if you're honest and your son is not stud/Top 500.

4.  Don't like slander and someone posting on a public forum when they have a personal grudge or story.  But short of that, one could make the argument that it's helpful to call these things out in order to help the next group that comes along.  We didn't go to a ND camp, but if you've been receiving these emails for the last 3 years, they definitely are intended to make the recipient think that ND is interested in your player and he should attend.  Many other college coaches try and do the same, and if you find a few honest ones, they will even admit that.  Many of these coaches absolutely are trying to send that message and lure gullible people to their camp.

5.  So, who needs protected?  The big college coach from the tough bloggers?  Or the little guy parents that want to believe it's all true?

6.  Btw, in this case, we are talking about the Head Coach at Notre Dame.  Spend 5 minutes on any blog after a loss in football, and maybe Brian Kelly thinks the baseball coach has it great!  In my opinion, if he really does conduct himself this way, I have no problem with him getting called out in a blog if it helps the next 10 little guy families.

real green posted:

Just for poops and giggles.  What do you think it's like for the college coaches that run these camps?  Ask yourself this question.  Will your son stand out in a crowd of 100 good HS varsity players?  Will it be obvious that he is the best player on the field?  If you can't answer that question confidently with a loud YES than the chances that he gets much of any attention at a college camp is very slim.  That is the quality of player a top D1 is looking for.  

 

Real Green and Infield Dad,

Look, I get it. Don't hate the players, hate the game. The particular camp we are at today is a shining example of what you talk about as far as standing out. Only one kid did, glaringly. This kid was launching BOMBS during BP. Not driving the ball to the fence, I am talking 450' shots into the deepest park of the park. Huge kid, will be interesting to see how that plays out against live pitching tomorrow. How this kid isn't already committed somewhere is a mystery to me. Probably because he doesn't hit like that versus live pitching I reckon.

I guess we are willing "victims" in this, admittedly (I won't be any longer, however I would still recommend events like Headfirst). However if you look at the college hosted camp fees (most are now $350 for a 2-day camp) I would hope these coaches would want to give these kids more than the bare minimum. Our camp today started at 9am. Coach spoke for 15 minutes, 15-20 minutes for stretching and warm ups, then splitting into different rotation groups. Let's assume kids were in their rotation groups at 9:45am. They went through 60-yard dash, infield/outfield drill showcase, and catcher throw downs, then did about 30 minutes of fielding drills until 12pm. ELAPSED TIME 2 hours 15 minutes. Lunch for 45 minutes. Picked back up at 12:45pm with BP and bunting/baserunning/hitting in cages until 3:30pm. Elapsed time 2 hours 45 minutes. Total time of instruction/observation for day #1 is 5 hours total. Tomorrow the boys play 1 game, have no idea how long the game will be. $350 gets you this. Sorry, I just don't think that is fair to the kids in general. This is, in my son's vernacular, "weak sauce."

Oh, HC gave opening remarks, poked his head into the camp 2-3 times and was there when it closed for the day. Not on the field much to look at players, give instruction. 

Also, just to clarify, I am not at a Notre Dame camp and haven't named the school or coach.

Edit: I think these college coaches are probably having a good laugh. Recruits come to their campus, pay them to evaluate them. That is having your cake and eating it too. I don't know if this model saves $$$ for the programs that ends up helping more players (typically fund volunteer assistant coaches), or if programs would really suffer without it...

I will reiterate my apology from five hours ago. My comments about the AD, head football coach, and head baseball coach are inappropriate here. I agree 100% with infielddad. 

As a Notre Dame alum, I allowed my frustrations to be communicated here and this is not the web site for that.  

Furthermore, my son's reasons for not accepting an offer to play baseball at Notre Dame are totally his own and he will speak for himself. 

My sincerest apologies to all. 

adbono posted:

.  Some mid-majors recruit from their camps a little bit.  But if you have not had prior contact from the coaches, and they have not personally asked you to attend, it is very unlikely that you will be noticed - no matter what you do.

Can vouch for this with my 2015. Best $75 spent on 3 hour fielding clinic held by chief decision maker with program.  School was following son's progress and this camp turned him from prospect to HIGH follow.  Son stood out. with glove and quickness and coach saw that he could take instruction. He would be offered and commit 5 months later.

SDR,

I  love the players and the game. I especially love the players as they move up in the game,  encounter the new challenges which they confront and to which they  adjust and succeed. The better they play the game, the more I love the game they play.

Having had a son coach at both the D3 and D1 levels, I also have a healthy (or unhealthy depending on viewpoints) amount of perspective which most on the way up do not.

Several years ago, one of the very best HS coaches in CA (and the nation) took the time to post on this site and on a local board.  His perspective, several years ago, was the $$$$ cycle we now see in "recruiting" would happen unless parents acted differently.

Frankly, there is no camp or showcase which does not "take" $$$$ from some percentage of those attending, if the expectations are getting that exposure toward being recruited. Perhaps, in the mix, are travel teams and coaches and programs which "feed" the "you can play."

In my view, far too many pay too many $$$$$$ on being seen instead of developing the skills to eventually be seen.  Disappointment is a natural result.  This has largely turned into a demand and supply business. How many now post on this site about showcasing in 8th grade and get "rationalized" thoughts on do it if you can afford it for the "experience," or "bonding" or "whatever?"

If I ran a travel team, showcase or college camp, why wouldn't I "take" those $$$$$?

Headfirst, for all those advocating in favor of it, is one example.  If 10 people on this site advocate how great it was "for their son," I would bet 50 people read it, believe it applies to their son and plunk down $1000 plus travel, hotel, etc. without ever realizing their son is not your son in terms of ability. And so, the world turns....

SanDiegoRealist posted:

real green posted:

Just for poops and giggles.  What do you think it's like for the college coaches that run these camps?  Ask yourself this question.  Will your son stand out in a crowd of 100 good HS varsity players?  Will it be obvious that he is the best player on the field?  If you can't answer that question confidently with a loud YES than the chances that he gets much of any attention at a college camp is very slim.  That is the quality of player a top D1 is looking for.  

 

Real Green and Infield Dad,

Look, I get it. Don't hate the players, hate the game. The particular camp we are at today is a shining example of what you talk about as far as standing out. Only one kid did, glaringly. This kid was launching BOMBS during BP. Not driving the ball to the fence, I am talking 450' shots into the deepest park of the park. Huge kid, will be interesting to see how that plays out against live pitching tomorrow. How this kid isn't already committed somewhere is a mystery to me. Probably because he doesn't hit like that versus live pitching I reckon.

I guess we are willing "victims" in this, admittedly (I won't be any longer, however I would still recommend events like Headfirst). However if you look at the college hosted camp fees (most are now $350 for a 2-day camp) I would hope these coaches would want to give these kids more than the bare minimum. Our camp today started at 9am. Coach spoke for 15 minutes, 15-20 minutes for stretching and warm ups, then splitting into different rotation groups. Let's assume kids were in their rotation groups at 9:45am. They went through 60-yard dash, infield/outfield drill showcase, and catcher throw downs, then did about 30 minutes of fielding drills until 12pm. ELAPSED TIME 2 hours 15 minutes. Lunch for 45 minutes. Picked back up at 12:45pm with BP and bunting/baserunning/hitting in cages until 3:30pm. Elapsed time 2 hours 45 minutes. Total time of instruction/observation for day #1 is 5 hours total. Tomorrow the boys play 1 game, have no idea how long the game will be. $350 gets you this. Sorry, I just don't think that is fair to the kids in general. This is, in my son's vernacular, "weak sauce."

Oh, HC gave opening remarks, poked his head into the camp 2-3 times and was there when it closed for the day. Not on the field much to look at players, give instruction. 

Also, just to clarify, I am not at a Notre Dame camp and haven't named the school or coach.

Edit: I think these college coaches are probably having a good laugh. Recruits come to their campus, pay them to evaluate them. That is having your cake and eating it too. I don't know if this model saves $$$ for the programs that ends up helping more players (typically fund volunteer assistant coaches), or if programs would really suffer without it...

I was just coming to your defense because no where did you mention Note Dame in your first post.

As stated above, college camps serve a purpose.  College prospect camps serve another purpose. Know and understand the difference. Traveling far from home is a chance, and unless someone has told you about camps and mostly that they subsidize salaries, you wouldn't necessarily know.  Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

I know a lot of kids who grew up at local program camps, who eventually earned a scholarship. Use your backyard programs to your advantage. 

As far as Note Dame, they joined the ACC for football. Baseball is a stretch for success, JMO. 

As far as running camps, many coaches leave that to staff, or some camps pay their players in summer or fall as allowed by the NCAA. FWIW in D1, usually the volunteer assistant and the baseball operations guy organize and run camps. That's how they earn their salary. It usually is the HC job to make introductions, and closing remarks. Some do instruction.  The really good ones watch the players and offer comments.

Branson Baseball posted:

My sincere apologies to all.  I should have kept my comments specific to the prospect camp.

Don't.  We learn from all of us here.  And I've learned a lot from your experiences.  Thanks

Infield Dad...hate the player not the game is slang which loosely translates into "don't get mad at the guy who is winning in the system, hate the system that allows it." I didn't mean it literally as I believe you interpreted it.

TPM - thanks, I think you understand my dilemma. I get it about the camps, trust me. And like I said above, we did the trip willingly. I guess I just expected them to at least thank my son for coming such a long distance at their request. Least they could do IMO.

Lucky above made a good point at the end of his post regarding calling out coaches by name. I realize that hasn't been part of this forum in the past, but when someone is a professional coach they are kind of signing on the dotted line to take their lumps in the press, with fans, etc...we all know they certainly don't mind reveling in the glory. That said, I believe there should be discourse to a degree about the tactics some schools/coaches use in order to get kids into these camps. If the invitation is misleading or disingenuous, then those programs need to hear it. It's kind of like that post about click bait the other day in another thread....

College camps:

Provide the Volunteer AC with an income.

If a player shows up embarrassing everyone else on the field the colleges have a 1/100 success rate. 

For a few kids, occasionally and rarely, maybe once in an eclipse, they'll have a chance to be seen by all the coaches that are not paying attention.

Useful camps: D1 skilled players with something to show, showing up at an Ivy camp acknowledging they value a top tier education. (Unfortunately the parents are not aware of the net cost)

If you don't have skills that will standout don't show up.  

Parents, deploy your money into programs that will create strength and speed to become beasts. 

Out. 

My son has been getting consistent emails from ND (& other major university's) for the past 2 years. Each one urging him to 'come to their prospect camp' so they can work with him, see him play etc. Every one states that a certain large % of their current players were discovered at 'their camps' They all imply that they have either seen him play or someone has recommended him to them as a potential prospect/student athlete (complete bullsh*t-they got his name/email off 'a list' that they bought...probably from PG).

IMHO, this is nothing more than a marketing ploy to get the unsuspecting kid and his parents to write $400 camp checks knowing full well it's only going to be used to line their pockets and subsidize the AC's salaries. I have absolutely NO problem having them called out here (or anywhere) for what they truly are. A bunch of low-life con-men that prey on the hopes & dreams of kids and parents with aspirations to play college baseball at the highest levels. If some of these coaches actually take the time to address the kids and parents at the camp and give them the 'skinny' on how it all works? Good for them! If they decide it's more important to walk around drinking coffee and eating donuts, ignoring the parents and kids then by all means......Post it here!

Took me a little while to figure it all out, glad I finally did-with a lot of help and info from this website. I guess the other option would have been to pay some clown-show recruiting company thousands to put me on a slower learning curve?

This crap won't stop until the parents eventually get wise and if this site can help those parents of young baseball players figure it out quicker? More power to all involved!

Infielddad: you say this site shouldn't be the avenue to call out coaches that don't provide any value for $400 camp checks? I say it's EXACTLY the avenue for that! I believe it's here to help parents navigate the process in a meaningful way so they learn as much as they can as quick as they can about a brutal endeavor that will put a HUGE dent in their bank accounts if their not careful and educated (JMHO).

Perhaps we should start a 'sticky' thread where we can all give opinions of value on college prospect camps? Which ones to attend and which ones to AVOID!

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Infield Dad...hate the player not the game is slang which loosely translates into "don't get mad at the guy who is winning in the system, hate the system that allows it." I didn't mean it literally as I believe you interpreted it.

TPM - thanks, I think you understand my dilemma. I get it about the camps, trust me. And like I said above, we did the trip willingly. I guess I just expected them to at least thank my son for coming such a long distance at their request. Least they could do IMO.

Lucky above made a good point at the end of his post regarding calling out coaches by name. I realize that hasn't been part of this forum in the past, but when someone is a professional coach they are kind of signing on the dotted line to take their lumps in the press, with fans, etc...we all know they certainly don't mind reveling in the glory. That said, I believe there should be discourse to a degree about the tactics some schools/coaches use in order to get kids into these camps. If the invitation is misleading or disingenuous, then those programs need to hear it. It's kind of like that post about click bait the other day in another thread....

 

Two thoughts for you:

1.) how much would HF cost if only those who truly should be there attended?  Stated differently, I would bet the cost is lower to your son and you and the profit margins higher because.....

2.)  Most every HS player who should be recruited has had a negative experience. Many who think they should be recruited never are..and are told that in some method by college coaches.  Are you advocating this site now becomes a poster board for naming every college coach because someone didn't like the way they didn't recruit our son?

Many commented on D1 camps and how few players were recruited from the camps. How about D3 camps? Many D3 camp invites include some lines such as "5 out of the 7 2017 recruits attended our prospect camp." Are those true?

OK, slightly different aspect. What about if a kid is asked by a college coach to come to the camp? What factors do you use to determine if, in fact, this is a good use of your son's time and your money? Out-of-pocket coast (travel, etc.)? How high it is on his list of schools? Something else?

You know how if you email a coach and he sends back his cell number that mean he wants you to call him?? Is there a similar "tell" when a coach is asking you to come to a camp (I don't mean by way of mass emails)?

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

DesertDuck posted:

My son has been getting consistent emails from ND (& other major university's) for the past 2 years. Each one urging him to 'come to their prospect camp' so they can work with him, see him play etc. Every one states that a certain large % of their current players were discovered at 'their camps' They all imply that they have either seen him play or someone has recommended him to them as a potential prospect/student athlete (complete bullsh*t-they got his name/email off 'a list' that they bought...probably from PG).

IMHO, this is nothing more than a marketing ploy to get the unsuspecting kid and his parents to write $400 camp checks knowing full well it's only going to be used to line their pockets and subsidize the AC's salaries. I have absolutely NO problem having them called out here (or anywhere) for what they truly are. A bunch of low-life con-men that prey on the hopes & dreams of kids and parents with aspirations to play college baseball at the highest levels. If some of these coaches actually take the time to address the kids and parents at the camp and give them the 'skinny' on how it all works? Good for them! If they decide it's more important to walk around drinking coffee and eating donuts, ignoring the parents and kids then by all means......Post it here!

Took me a little while to figure it all out, glad I finally did-with a lot of help and info from this website. I guess the other option would have been to pay some clown-show recruiting company thousands to put me on a slower learning curve?

This crap won't stop until the parents eventually get wise and if this site can help those parents of young baseball players figure it out quicker? More power to all involved!

Infielddad: you say this site shouldn't be the avenue to call out coaches that don't provide any value for $400 camp checks? I say it's EXACTLY the avenue for that! I believe it's here to help parents navigate the process in a meaningful way so they learn as much as they can as quick as they can about a brutal endeavor that will put a HUGE dent in their bank accounts if their not careful and educated (JMHO).

Perhaps we should start a 'sticky' thread where we can all give opinions of value on college prospect camps? Which ones to attend and which ones to AVOID!

I appreciate your input here, Duck. I think you are on to something. If coaches/programs know parents/athletes are sick of the hard sell and see attendance decline (and revenue) as a result, perhaps they will change their approach. Nah...just kidding. They won't change anything because there will always be someone who is uninformed and willing to buy into the dream.

I think you could achieve this in a seperate topic. Ask for camp recommendations, stay away from negativity than ask why they found the camp to be worthwhile.

We could then set up this information geographically.

FWIW, I agree with infielddad.

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

infielddad posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Infield Dad...hate the player not the game is slang which loosely translates into "don't get mad at the guy who is winning in the system, hate the system that allows it." I didn't mean it literally as I believe you interpreted it.

TPM - thanks, I think you understand my dilemma. I get it about the camps, trust me. And like I said above, we did the trip willingly. I guess I just expected them to at least thank my son for coming such a long distance at their request. Least they could do IMO.

Lucky above made a good point at the end of his post regarding calling out coaches by name. I realize that hasn't been part of this forum in the past, but when someone is a professional coach they are kind of signing on the dotted line to take their lumps in the press, with fans, etc...we all know they certainly don't mind reveling in the glory. That said, I believe there should be discourse to a degree about the tactics some schools/coaches use in order to get kids into these camps. If the invitation is misleading or disingenuous, then those programs need to hear it. It's kind of like that post about click bait the other day in another thread....

 

Two thoughts for you:

1.) how much would HF cost if only those who truly should be there attended?  Stated differently, I would bet the cost is lower to your son and you and the profit margins higher because.....

2.)  Most every HS player who should be recruited has had a negative experience. Many who think they should be recruited never are..and are told that in some method by college coaches.  Are you advocating this site now becomes a poster board for naming every college coach because someone didn't like the way they didn't recruit our son?

Any showcase is going to charge what the market will bear. Headfirst is owned/operated by a Stanford grad, I would bet he has figured this out long ago. I don't feel anyone's entry fee into that event is "subsidized" in any way by the volume of kids there. In fact, the higher the demand for their product, the more camps they will try to host...that is business 101. But at some point when the pool of talent at these events becomes too watered down to bear fruit for the colleges in attendance, they will stop coming...then so will the players.

I am not advocating this just becoming a place to flame coaches, of course not. But I also feel that if they are going to run a program that this website should allow criticism of their program by name. I don't mean its cool to call someone a donut eating fatty, but to say their camp isn't worth the money due to poor camp practices, lack of age-appropriate skills training, or flat out being disingenuous about how they came to invite your son is certainly fair game.

After today it became apparent that the kid who was hitting the bombs in BP has the right approach to getting a coach's attention at a camp. Again, our situation is that an asst coach contact us, thru club coach, to get my son here. WE NEVER PURSUED THIS SCHOOL. We accepted the invitation and by default the expense, to come out. At least shake my kid's hand, I had no illusions that they were going to offer him a scholarship.

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

Its not one coach with dozens of kids, it may be the entire coaching staff as well as players who do give instruction. Or they may have scouts that come in or other division coaches.

My sons program just had a camp. It involved about 15 pitchers for him to evaluate, all being considerations for scholarships. The hitting coach also had about 15. The HC spoke to the parents for an hour after the camp and explained his program and took questions.

However, most of these players live within the state.

I think this may be what most would prefer.

Because D3 programs have limited resources, I believe they use their camps to recruit and to help pay salaries.

Always keep in mind the main objective for ANY program is to make money from their instructional or youth camps for salaries. 

"Any showcase is going to charge what the market will bear. Headfirst is owned/operated by a Stanford grad, I would bet he has figured this out long ago. I don't feel anyone's entry fee into that event is "subsidized" in any way by the volume of kids there. In fact, the higher the demand for their product, the more camps they will try to host...that is business 101."

Why don't showcases publicize the number or percentage of attendees who actually end up playing at a program where they were seen at the showcase....or playing in college at all?  Where is the consumer QA part of this? Are you saying that if the attendance were 50% less, your cost would be the same and the profit margins the same for the showcase?  I don't think that would be true.  Camps and showcases are certainly responding to demand but the demand, in my view, is artificially driven by parents with $$$$$ and with rose colored views.

I have seen this site transition from threads which started about the Stanford Camp in November or the prior year with another thread in the weeks before about everyone attending (and those disappointed they did not get it.)  I have no problem with assessment of Camps.

I have also heard and read  the angst flowing from posts of parents feeling  a college coach didn't "appreciate" their son.

I am not sure I agree that when we introduce dollars spent between the above options it will lead to objective, verifiable and helpful perspectives.

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

Thanks for the question.  From the standpoint of a position player and in regards specifically to defensive work, absolutely I think a high school player could learn plenty from a college or pro coach over the course of a few days. 

3and2Fastball posted:

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

Thanks for the question.  From the standpoint of a position player and in regards specifically to defensive work, absolutely I think a high school player could learn plenty from a college or pro coach over the course of a few days. 

 

Fair enough. Defensive work I can see. Tough to see a pitching coach or hitting coach one time and make significant progress, IMHO.

While on the subject of camps, one thing I liked about the Tops 96 (now UA) camps is that the price was not uniform across locations. The prices varied depending on how many coaches (schools) were in attendance along with who was there (D1/D2?D3/conferences represented/geographic locations of schools distant from location, etc). And if you were looking into BC or Pitt, coaches were not only present but organized many of their events. Again, go where the coaches are of the schools you are vetting.

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

2019Dad posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 Some camps give great instruction and are run well and deserve an A+, others not so. That's why this place is a great resource.

 

I would absolutely love to find a list of the college camps that give great instruction and are run well.   I've done some searching here but haven't come up with anything.  Any suggestions by anyone as to great camps would be greatly appreciated....

3and2, I have a legitimate question for you: are you really looking for "instruction" in a 2-day camp? I'm serious . . . I'm not saying that a kid can't pick up a tip, but I think it is hard to get valuable instruction seeing a coach one time for two days (with dozens of other kids there too). 

Thanks for the question.  From the standpoint of a position player and in regards specifically to defensive work, absolutely I think a high school player could learn plenty from a college or pro coach over the course of a few days. 

 

Fair enough. Defensive work I can see. Tough to see a pitching coach or hitting coach one time and make significant progress, IMHO.

Strongly agree re pitching or hitting, although if a coach talked about the mental approach to pitching or hitting that could be helpful.  Strategies of working a count etc... Mechanics not so much.  My particular Kid plays multiple defensive positions and there are all sorts of nuances to each of them that he enjoys learning about.  And trust me he has a lot to learn!

infielddad posted:

"Any showcase is going to charge what the market will bear. Headfirst is owned/operated by a Stanford grad, I would bet he has figured this out long ago. I don't feel anyone's entry fee into that event is "subsidized" in any way by the volume of kids there. In fact, the higher the demand for their product, the more camps they will try to host...that is business 101."

Why don't showcases publicize the number or percentage of attendees who actually end up playing at a program where they were seen at the showcase....or playing in college at all?  Where is the consumer QA part of this? Are you saying that if the attendance were 50% less, your cost would be the same and the profit margins the same for the showcase?  I don't think that would be true.  Camps and showcases are certainly responding to demand but the demand, in my view, is artificially driven by parents with $$$$$ and with rose colored views.

I have seen this site transition from threads which started about the Stanford Camp in November or the prior year with another thread in the weeks before about everyone attending (and those disappointed they did not get it.)  I have no problem with assessment of Camps.

I have also heard and read  the angst flowing from posts of parents feeling  a college coach didn't "appreciate" their son.

I am not sure I agree that when we introduce dollars spent between the above options it will lead to objective, verifiable and helpful perspectives.

 

infield dad

Perfect Game sure does that quantification, doesn't it? Or does it?

i never spoke about profit margins, you did. You seem to think the cost of the camp is artificially low based on inflated attendance due to lower-talented kids attending due to parents who can write a check. Isn't that the case with all showcases and camps, that prettt much all of them are open registration save a few PG events and perhaps some others like Area Code?  What I am contending is the entry fee is based upon market conditions, such as supply and demand. Pricing is one of the toughest things to get right. Of course their margins would be lower if the camps were smaller. But that doesn't mean more well-qualified players would be attending, it just means those who click the mouse fast are getting in.

I think a coach should show appreciation to every kid/parent who goes to their camps, that is called respect and it goes es both ways, Infield!

infielddad posted:

 

 

I have seen this site transition from threads which started about the Stanford Camp in November or the prior year with another thread in the weeks before about everyone attending (and those disappointed they did not get it.)  I have no problem with assessment of Camps.

 

For what it is worth, I think they should do this. But it sure wouldn't be good for their business

Not sure how this swerved to respect and I know I never said that should not be part of a camp. On that aspect we agree as to the player.

We did not attend camps with our son so I don't have an expectation on the  parent side 

I've said it before in other threads, but it bears repeating.

College camps exist because of the difference between what the camps sell and what the parents think they're buying.

College camps sell high priced, short-term, group instruction.

Parents think they're buying exposure to recruiting decision makers.

Coaches are aware of this disconnect, so their marketing materials play up the number of camp alumni who made their rosters. But numbers can mislead because a lot of players who are already being recruited attend a camp anyway. The number of "cinderella kid" campers who show up unknown and steal the show is vanishingly small. For every story of a player whose camp experience led to an offer or roster spot, there are dozens of campers who leave unhappy because they feel they weren't watched closely enough by the recruiters.

No college coach whose job security depends on finding talent will make camps a significant part of his recruiting strategy because the odds are prohibitively against enough talent randomly showing up from their email and direct mail advertising. Coaches will continue to do the majority of their recruiting at events where talent shows up in concentrations that make it worth their effort to attend.

Not glamorous by any stretch but I nominate Swamp's post as a golden.  This is a very clear and accurate depiction of what college camps are and how coaches view them and should be another piece of required reading for those entering the recruiting process.

2019 posed a good question earlier in the thread that deserves more attention (and probably it's own topic).  Some folks here have stated that they go to these camps for the instruction.  How much can you get from a one or two day camp with a large group format that typically stretches across ages and ability levels?  Well, I think it is typical to pick up one or two tips that can be gems but I think it is safe to say that one would get far more bang for the buck by putting that money toward private or small group focused instruction.  

I think these camps can be good for younger players (roughly pre-15) for the excitement factor - experiencing the school facilities, getting a bit of instruction from the college players and taking in those few gems but once a player has reached the point where it's time for a recruiting plan, look elsewhere.  The exception would be if there is active recruiting discussion with a school and they want to use the camp as an opportunity for another look.  

BTW, in making this statement, I am now advocating taking money directly out of my son's pockets.  Oops, sorry son.  

Swampboy posted:

I've said it before in other threads, but it bears repeating.

College camps exist because of the difference between what the camps sell and what the parents think they're buying.

College camps sell high priced, short-term, group instruction.

Parents think they're buying exposure to recruiting decision makers.

Coaches are aware of this disconnect, so their marketing materials play up the number of camp alumni who made their rosters. But numbers can mislead because a lot of players who are already being recruited attend a camp anyway. The number of "cinderella kid" campers who show up unknown and steal the show is vanishingly small. For every story of a player whose camp experience led to an offer or roster spot, there are dozens of campers who leave unhappy because they feel they weren't watched closely enough by the recruiters.

No college coach whose job security depends on finding talent will make camps a significant part of his recruiting strategy because the odds are prohibitively against enough talent randomly showing up from their email and direct mail advertising. Coaches will continue to do the majority of their recruiting at events where talent shows up in concentrations that make it worth their effort to attend.

 

Thanks for posting that, I couldnt.

Personal experience:

Son is 2015 RHP; son hit 90MPH (JUGS gun) for first time in 06/2013. went to camp at prominent Tx D1 in 08/2013. Son faced 8 batters. K'd the 1st four. walked the 5th but actually was a swinging K. next batter hit into DP. walked the 7th. K'd the 8th. Son of family friend played on this D1 team. He came by after a few minutes and spoke to me in the grandstand and told me that HC was impressed and that son did well.  I have no idea of son's velocity at this camp. Never heard or had contact from HC (or anyone else) as result from camp. 

Fast forward to June, 2014.   HC of same D1 made a special trip just to see son pitch.  Briefly spoke to HC. Acted like he had no idea who son was before the 30-40 days prior to see him pitch and definitely never mentioned, etc son being at his camp 10 months prior. 

I believe this may have been the only camp son went to. Not sure he got much of any instructions and he sure did not get any recruitment as a result of this camp.

This is just my perspective from going through a late-developing recruiting experience with my 2017 in the past year.  He became a 90/30 kid last summer right before his senior year, but was up to that point a very good hitter who pitched on the side.  Was a good pitcher, but velo came late in the process.  So even though he got a ton of looks last summer as his velo numbers got posted, he had a bad outing against a team full of kids who played in the PG event a few nights ago in front of a ton of schools and that seemed to cool things off.  So, at the end of the summer he had no offers and was somewhat disillusioned after so many "name" schools showed brief interest.

So we set a plan to identify schools he was most interested in and contacted them.  Went directly to the head coach when possible.  They all asked to see him at their camp so they could evaluate him in person.  We set up two in the fall and two in January.  Each time, when he showed up, he was greated by one or more coaches at the registration table.  To me, that was the key.  From those four camps, he got 3 offers and a walk-on invite.  

I now have a 2020 coming up, and I plan to do the same with him, only start it earlier.  He won't attend a camp where he is not expressly invited via some direct interaction with a coach.  My 2020 is getting a ton of email right now as many are I'm sure.  But we're going to pick schools where we think he has a reasonable chance to fit in and whose academic profile fits his needs. The key for me is being honest about my kid's abilities.  He won't be going to my alma mater Vandy's camp, because he's not that kid.  But we have a good feel where he would fit, so that's where we'll focus.  When we get a school to bite, then we'll get him to that camp.  He played in 6 PG events this past summer, so he has the advantage of getting that exposure already, so want to make that clarification.  The camp strategy is in addition to the PG events, which is important to develop a verifiable track record schools can research.

SSBuckeye posted:

This is just my perspective from going through a late-developing recruiting experience with my 2017 in the past year.  He became a 90/30 kid last summer right before his senior year, but was up to that point a very good hitter who pitched on the side.  Was a good pitcher, but velo came late in the process.  So even though he got a ton of looks last summer as his velo numbers got posted, he had a bad outing against a team full of kids who played in the PG event a few nights ago in front of a ton of schools and that seemed to cool things off.  So, at the end of the summer he had no offers and was somewhat disillusioned after so many "name" schools showed brief interest.

So we set a plan to identify schools he was most interested in and contacted them.  Went directly to the head coach when possible.  They all asked to see him at their camp so they could evaluate him in person.  We set up two in the fall and two in January.  Each time, when he showed up, he was greated by one or more coaches at the registration table.  To me, that was the key.  From those four camps, he got 3 offers and a walk-on invite.  

I now have a 2020 coming up, and I plan to do the same with him, only start it earlier.  He won't attend a camp where he is not expressly invited via some direct interaction with a coach.  My 2020 is getting a ton of email right now as many are I'm sure.  But we're going to pick schools where we think he has a reasonable chance to fit in and whose academic profile fits his needs. The key for me is being honest about my kid's abilities.  He won't be going to my alma mater Vandy's camp, because he's not that kid.  But we have a good feel where he would fit, so that's where we'll focus.  When we get a school to bite, then we'll get him to that camp.  He played in 6 PG events this past summer, so he has the advantage of getting that exposure already, so want to make that clarification.  The camp strategy is in addition to the PG events, which is important to develop a verifiable track record schools can research.

Echo this assessment.  I think if you have been in contact with coaches who have not been able to see you play in person but have seen video etc and there is "interest", going to their camp can be very beneficial.  Son has done 3 camps this summer where he was known to the coaching staff and the reception by the coaches  has been outstanding.  Use the opportunity to get in front of vetted schools to your advantage, but don't expect to be "discovered" randomly as one of 200 kids in attendance.  One of many tools, just make sure that coaches know you are coming and that you have been in touch with them previously and are a potential match for their school.