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Man on second steals third.  Catcher's throw gets by third baseman.  Leftfielder is where he should be, backing up the throw.  However, the ball rolls right through the leftfielder's legs and the baserunner scores.

I scored this a stolen base and an error on the left fielder, but I could understand why the error might be on the catcher.  Looking for help on this.  Thanks.

"Don't be mean now because remember: Wherever you go, there you are..." Buckaroo Banzai

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When a runner steals third, LF usually won't break to back up until he first reads if the ball is hit.  So, LF often does not get over and in quickly enough to have a shot at throwing out the runner at home, unless runner really gets hung up on the ground after sliding at third.  So, yes, if LF is there quickly enough and it goes through his legs then it is his E.  But the more likely scenario is the E would go to either the C or 3b, depending on whether you judge that the throw should have been caught or blocked with reasonable effort. 

Also, you may not even award the stolen base if it appears the throw was well ahead of the runner and should have been caught.

Last edited by cabbagedad

thx, cabbagedad....I should have clarified that the throw was so off line the leftfielder didn't have a long way to go to cover the overthrow.  It was an ugly play all the way around, so ugly I was tempted to give errors to everyone involved in the play.  Eventually, however, I calmed down.

 

I do have  follow-up on  a different play: in a HS game, shortstop goes several steps to his right and backhands a ball on a fairly easy hop.  There was no way however that he had time to get in front of the ball.  As he plants his foot to throw and starts his transfer he drops the ball and the runner is safe.

 

I've had people say that ANY backhand play in high school, as long as the player is not screwing around and making the play more difficult than it needed to be, requires more than ordinary effort, and should therefor be scored a hit.  Does that seem like a fair assessment of the Ordinary effort "rule?"

Originally Posted by smokeminside:

..shortstop goes several steps to his right and backhands a ball on a fairly easy hop.  There was no way however that he had time to get in front of the ball.  As he plants his foot to throw and starts his transfer he drops the ball and the runner is safe.

 

I've had people say that ANY backhand play in high school, as long as the player is not screwing around and making the play more difficult than it needed to be, requires more than ordinary effort, and should therefor be scored a hit.  Does that seem like a fair assessment of the Ordinary effort "rule?"

No, I wouldn't say ANY backhand play.  Many backhand plays, including some SS to the hole, should be made.  But if SS goes to the hole deep enough that, had he fielded the ball cleanly, made a clean transfer and an accurate throw, and that runner would have still been safe, then no E.  If you determine he would have thrown the runner out if fielded cleanly, then E.  Others may get more technical about defining reasonable effort (who's effort, etc.) but this is the short, easy answer.

Last edited by cabbagedad

Regarding the errant throw to third, I would pay attention to when the runner decided to attempt to reach home.

 

If the runner slid into third, saw the throw get past the third baseman and immediately got up and started for home, the error is clearly on the catcher.

 

If, however, the runner initially decided to stay put at third because he thought the left fielder could retrieve the ball in time to prevent him from scoring but later changed his mind and broke for home when he realized the ball had got past the left fielder, then I would consider giving the error to the left fielder.

 

It would have to be very clear that the runner decided to advance only after the left fielder's miscue to overcome the presumption that the guy who dumped the ball into left field is most responsible for the runner's subsequent advance and deserves the error.

 

 

Regarding the backhand play at shortstop, it seems like the error was unrelated to the backhand play.

 

What did you see?

 

If he had time to plant and make a good throw after fielding the routine hop and would have been expected to get the runner out but failed to do so because he dropped the ball, then it's an error. If, however, the reason he dropped the ball was related to the necessity of recovering and getting set after making more than an ordinary effort, then it is not an error.

 

I would discourage broad generalizations, such as the assertion that ANY backhand play requires more than ordinary effort, that prevent you from using your experience to make a subjective assessment of the actual play that unfolded before your eyes. Ask, "Should a shortstop of average ability for this classification of baseball have been expected to make that play?" If yes, charge an errror.  If no, don't.

Last edited by Swampboy

Thanks, Swampboy and Cabbagedad!  Really good suggestions for how to look at the plays.

 

This won't be news to you, but I use gamechanger to keep my Mom informed about her two grandsons' progress (soph on Varsity, 8th grader on Intermediate). When other parents found out what I was doing they asked to be included in the community.  Fine, except that there are often messy plays like the first one I posted that directly affect their kids' stats, which they hold sacrosanct.  Even if everyone had the same amount of baseball background there would be issues, right.  But it's even worse when people think they know more than they do about the game (myself included).  I'm tempted, after this spring, to just go private with the scoring.

 

Anyway, thanks again.  Really appreciate both of your insights!

Originally Posted by smokeminside:

Thanks, Swampboy and Cabbagedad!  Really good suggestions for how to look at the plays.

 

This won't be news to you, but I use gamechanger to keep my Mom informed about her two grandsons' progress (soph on Varsity, 8th grader on Intermediate). When other parents found out what I was doing they asked to be included in the community.  Fine, except that there are often messy plays like the first one I posted that directly affect their kids' stats, which they hold sacrosanct.  Even if everyone had the same amount of baseball background there would be issues, right.  But it's even worse when people think they know more than they do about the game (myself included).  I'm tempted, after this spring, to just go private with the scoring.

 

Anyway, thanks again.  Really appreciate both of your insights!

I have been in this boat before, and it is not always fun. 

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