PED suspensions spell Ouch for 4 MLB teams

There was an anonymous survey asking Olympic athletes and a significant percentage replied that they would take the stuff if it means they win even if they die early. They will probably think different if they have cancer with 45 but in the moment athletes are often willing to sacrifice a lot for success. Don't forget that they have put in 10000s of hours since they are pre teens for many of them baseball has become their only life purpose (not saying this is a good thing it is certainly not).

also regarding the cheating thing many rationalize it to themselves like " I would prefer a clean sport but since many others do it too I only try to create a level playing field" ( it is still cheating, even if there only is a single clean player he is right and the other ones are wrong).

younggundad, they don't care. after 7 years and 22 years old in the minors it is very close to being time to move up or move out. chances are they have little no career options left, they probably have no education...the rick / reward is worth more then the potential downside. You and I may not agree with that statement but to them it is a no brainer.

I am not defending these guys at all but it you go to some of the islands these young players come from and see people living in plywood huts with blue tarp roofs, riding a scooter if they are lucky or some kind of bike - well WTF do they care about getting caught? If they aren't good enough without it - get on it ASAP! From the conversations I have had with some young minor league guys this if fairly common place overseas for sure and apparently here to some level as well.

As far as calling the Jose Canseco, they would be thrilled with that. 10 years or whatever in the bigs, pension, 20, 40 80 million or whatever in lifetime earnings.....yep they will take that at close to a 100% rate!

The crazy thing is if you or any of us had the same choices of lifetime poverty with little or no defined path of how to beat it vs risking health issues 20 years from now for the upside of wealth, fame, possibly setting up your entire family for generations....I don't know that I even blame them.

Stanozolol has been around since the 50's, very common drug used to promote endurance and strength without unwanted size. Drugs have been tested on animals for a long time and often were gotten from veterinarians or from doctors who used to prescribe them, specifically for performance enhancement.

Stanozolol (Winstrol) is a good drug of choice for baseball (Bonds was accused of its use):  The effects of Winstrol are undoubtedly most beneficial to direct performance enhancement of an athletic nature. We’re talking about functional competitive athletes, not bodybuilders or physique athletes. This steroid has the ability to greatly increase strength and this can translate into both power and speed. Further, it will accomplish this without adding a lot of additional weight that could hinder some depending on the sport, as well as cause unwanted attention from prying eyes. There have been those who have said Winstrol isn’t good for competitive athletes, especially those athletes in explosive sports due to potential weakening of the tendons but this is more or less message board anecdotal hysteria that supports this claim. In fact, many studies have shown it can have a positive impact on strengthening tendons and we already know it’s good for the bones. If not, it wouldn’t be used to treat osteoporosis.  You can read more here if you want:  https://www.steroid.com/Winstrol.php

Baseball and all sports (world wide) could stop drug use if they really wanted to, but the results pack the stands and if you feel you have nothing to lose or just need that extra 10ft on the hit, .1 in the 60, or 1 mph..  "I know others are using", what are you going to do?

2FORU - As you sound somewhat knowledgeable on this topic, can you describe or explain how steroids can end up causing significant medical problems, short term and long term?  Is it largely overuse, taking too large of a dose, taking doses too often, or both?  I'm pretty sure I've taken steroids before (pretty sure I had some what I got really bad poison ivy), so I know they serve some purpose, just not sure medically how they can dramatically impact future health.  I have a feeling it is overuse, so maybe kids read that that the drug (steroid) is not dangerous - when used as appropriate - but becomes dangerous when used otherwise.  

2017LHPscrewball posted:

2FORU - As you sound somewhat knowledgeable on this topic, can you describe or explain how steroids can end up causing significant medical problems, short term and long term?  Is it largely overuse, taking too large of a dose, taking doses too often, or both?  I'm pretty sure I've taken steroids before (pretty sure I had some what I got really bad poison ivy), so I know they serve some purpose, just not sure medically how they can dramatically impact future health.  I have a feeling it is overuse, so maybe kids read that that the drug (steroid) is not dangerous - when used as appropriate - but becomes dangerous when used otherwise.  

Steroids such as prednisone or cortisone are not what he is talking about. You dont get busted using your inhaler.  Its important as a parent to do research.

Younggundad,

I just cant figure out why you cant figure this out.  Steroid use in not uncommon among players especially Dominicans. Those are just the ones that got caught. And they will use whatever they can get their hands on.  And yes this is about seeing that after 7 years you aren't going to get that big paycheck or that you have injuries you are hiding and you are about to lose the only thing that you know how to do.

I mean do you really feel that they have cleaned up the problem?

A tough subject for sure.  We all take health risks everyday.  It's not that complicated to understand why a professional athlete would consider steroids.  

The health risks associated with steroids is not that high.  The reward potentially is astronomical financially.  We are talking life changing money.  Now consider the competitive nature of professional athletes.  THEY WANT/NEED to compete more than most of us can imagine.  That mental want/need/drive to compete is one of the reasons they are professional athletes and a HUGE influence on steroid use.    

http://www.iaaf.org/news/news/...st-a-cautionary-tale

This was one of the most interesting articles I ever read on steroid use. It's more focused on HGH use under the care of a prescribing physician but gets into the physiology of hormonal manipulation that is the heart of PED use. 

Sorry for the long post. 

The steroid for poison ivy is different that anabolic steroids.  Prednisone is a Corticosteroid - it suppresses the body’s immune response (anti inflammatory steroid designed to replicate what the adrenal gland does naturally).  Anabolic steroids were created to enhance performance - male hormone (testes on overdrive). Lots of online information available.

My experience with steroids comes from being a drug free power lifter competing against (and friends with) so called "drug free" lifters (men and women) who can do things that even genetically gifted people could not do. 

 I'm not an expert by any means and most likely will not explain it as well as others.  I do not recommend drug use, but can understand why people use drugs.  Also, your training will be completely different if you are using anabolics.

 Here are two links that can explain it better than I probably will:  http://www.esc1.net/cms/lib/TX...steroids_handout.pdf

http://www.cesar.umd.edu/cesar/drugs/steroids.asp

 Here is a bit about what I was around:

I've listened to their stories: about passing lie detector - blood and urine tests, seeing the side effects, crazy gains in strength and endurance, watching them get arrested, and finally admit to steroid use.  (These people that were paid for endorsements of various nutritional supplements that supposedly made them what they were).  After they were exposed, they would go on to talk and mentor others about how you should avoid steroids.  How hard work, nutrition, and rest is all that you need to be like he / she was (they just took a shortcut - knowing that was not true). Anyone close to the person knows, even if they won’t admit it. Two major problems from the drug itself - suppression of the natural hormone and side effects.  You will often hear the terms stacking (using multiple anabolics at the same time) and cycling.  When cycling, your body starts to realize you have too much hormone in your body and stops producing testosterone - testes will shrink. You compensate with the steroid dose. As you go off the steroid, your body should start to produce testosterone - testes will hopefully return to normal. Ego, self worth, depression can all complicate things.

 The people I was around cycled on and off year round in an attempt to minimize any long term affects.  They also became impatient because they became obsessed with getting stronger and often did not take any time off for the body to recuperate.  They were young, dumb, invincible, and no medical supervision. Overuse and then Stacking contributed to greater side effects and elite performance.  Stacking of multiple anabolics also created greater and faster gains.  It was insane.  From what I have learned, there are drugs of choice depending on your circumstance, more drugs out there to mask the one you are using, and any number of ways to pass the tests necessary to say you are drug free.  If you get caught, you did something stupid or someone else got caught and mentioned your name to keep out of prison.

Have you ever been asked how many people does it take to lift a 1967 VW beetle over your head and carry it around the parking lot (drunk and laughing)?  The answer is six, "non steroid" power lifters.  Four cold did not have the coordination to get it overhead.  Once lifted, four walked around with it.

This was back in the late 80’s early 90’s so things may be a bit different today, but a lot of the stories you hear about in the press sound very similar (except for the VW).

tres_arboles posted:

http://www.iaaf.org/news/news/...st-a-cautionary-tale

This was one of the most interesting articles I ever read on steroid use. It's more focused on HGH use under the care of a prescribing physician but gets into the physiology of hormonal manipulation that is the heart of PED use. 

Wow, great read.  Just a quick note, it says baseball has no testing, the article was written in 2004.  I wonder how more advanced it has gotten since then?

Banned in 91.  Did not start testing until 2003.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/topics/_/page/the-steroids-era

real green posted:

A tough subject for sure.  We all take health risks everyday.  It's not that complicated to understand why a professional athlete would consider steroids.  

The health risks associated with steroids is not that high.  The reward potentially is astronomical financially.  We are talking life changing money.  Now consider the competitive nature of professional athletes.  THEY WANT/NEED to compete more than most of us can imagine.  That mental want/need/drive to compete is one of the reasons they are professional athletes and a HUGE influence on steroid use.    

Regarding the risk: just using it 3-4 months to get your fastball from 90 to 93 or recover from injury and get promoted is not a big risk but long term use is certainly a risk. Many bodybuilders and weightlifters did die early.

the problem is that this minor league player says to himself only this offseason and then I stop but if he makes it he likely continues because then he faces the next pressure to maintain that level. You always find a reason to continue if you start once and chronic use is certainly very dangerous, especially excessive and combination use.

TPM, I'm not here to split hairs so I have no need to "figure it out" but, thank you for assuming I am still looking for some kind of answer or some vindication as to why this continues. My opinion is I think the mere fact that these suspensions are happening in the 3-digit range each year that the MLB drug testing procedures and/or discipline process is a complete farce. PED's and steroids are illegal or at least in the eyes of MLB. That's a no brainer. Regardless of their reason or excuse to take these illegal substances at the end of the day a player is deciding to CHEAT. Rules are rules and they are established in HOPES of having some kind of boundaries by which all people/players will adhere to. 

It's black and white. The cheating will continue until players begin to see that the risk/reward is not worth it because MLB decides to finally get serious about cheating and getting caught. 

Old_School, please watch the documentary on Jose Canseco and see exactly what using PED's has done to his body and the suffering he faces and I think you'll change your opinion about these players loving the chance to talk with him. 

YGD

There are thousands of milb players employed each year so 100+ players is a very small percentage of those that do get caught.  MLB feels they are winning the war on PED use. We aren't even aware of what goes on at the next level.  The rule is  that you get 2 chances, the third you are out.   The risk for most who take anabolic steroids is worth the reward. A better pay check.

In any profession there are people who cheat.  Is it right, absolutely not. Is it ever going to change, absolutely never.

Also note the number of suspensions that occur in the Dominican league as well as the first year lowest level leagues and free agents. Chances are these players will never reach the ML  level.

I watched this documentary last night - covers a few sports.  I will point out that the claims have not been proven, but the show is in line with this discussion: 

http://america.aljazeera.com/a...f-sports-doping.html

My view has been jaded since Lance Armstrong was outed.  Today Payton Manning's name is in the headlines.  At this point, I would suspect a MAJORITY of paid athletes today have taken some kind of PED over the course of their career.  

I can only imagine it will get much worse as medicine continues to improve.  Also, where are we going to go with bionics?

I agree, your view is jaded.

I may in the minority here. Heck, I may be the ONLY one who thinks this but, for me this all comes down to it has become a very sad day when our "go to" or "plan B" is compromise and/or cheating to get ahead. (I'm not talking about players who have unknowingly perhaps drank or ate something inadvertently and innocently). My father taught me a very long time ago that if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything. But it's even beyond that. Forget the right vs wrong aspect of this. These young players are willing to risk their current and even more importantly, their FUTURE health for a few moments in glory today. I guess common sense is no longer, common.

As Forest Gump so eloquently put it: That's all I got to say about that.

YGD

YoungGunDad posted:

 These young players are willing to risk their current and even more importantly, their FUTURE health for a few moments in glory today. I guess common sense is no longer, common.

As Forest Gump so eloquently put it: That's all I got to say about that.

YGD

I know you don't understand.  I could never understand why either. 

Fame and fortune will force many people to do things that they shouldn't do.  

You and I get the future health aspect, but I don't expect young men in their 20's to look into the future or worry about what will be at 40, 50. They live in the now.

Not every parent may have had that conversation that you and I might have with our boys.

I think common sense goes out the window when you start adding several zeros to someone's paycheck.  While there are always exceptions, I get the feeling (based on very limited information) that most of these baseball guys are not taking huge amounts of stuff - they are taking specific ones to drive specific performance - or help hasten recovery.  I would think few baseball players end up having major medical conditions later in life (again, there will be exceptions - hoping Barry Bonds dodges the bullet and perhaps his head shrinks back to normal size).

I've got enough issues with folks in business and politics that some "aging" 30-something pitcher taking a few pills that got prescribed to his dog doesn't bother me too much.  It is unfair to those players that get beat out because they followed the rules, but this is no different from what goes on daily out in the real world.  What really gets me is when I find out my neighbor has been stealing cable for 10 years while I've been playing by the rules and paying up every month.

YoungGunDad posted:

I may in the minority here. Heck, I may be the ONLY one who thinks this but, for me this all comes down to it has become a very sad day when our "go to" or "plan B" is compromise and/or cheating to get ahead. (I'm not talking about players who have unknowingly perhaps drank or ate something inadvertently and innocently). My father taught me a very long time ago that if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything. But it's even beyond that. Forget the right vs wrong aspect of this. These young players are willing to risk their current and even more importantly, their FUTURE health for a few moments in glory today. I guess common sense is no longer, common.

As Forest Gump so eloquently put it: That's all I got to say about that.

YGD

It really isn't that complicated to understand and most would say yes under certain circumstances.  Here is just one scenario to consider and honestly answer what you would do.  

A rising 25yr old  pitching stud makes it to the show.  Has a Cy Young potential winning season.  Currently is making league minimum and is up for a new contract end of next season.  Is projected to sign for $15 million.  Than blows out his whatever that requires 3-6 mths rehab.  

His $15 million contract is now on the line.  Based on how he recovers from injury and finishes out the next season.  

You have every right to judge their decisions but try to understand what might be influencing them.  It is not as simple as "I want to win!"  Regarding the health risks.  MANY people work under known conditions that have health risks.  It is about supporting your family.  Everyone takes health risks on a regular bases.  

Until the clubs themselves are punished for positive tests of their players, the club has NO incentive to monitor closely it's players, while simultaneously incentives push players to use PEDs (on the one hand there is potentially generational money, on the other hand the morality of a player wanting to compete clean).

At the MLB level, a positive test should mean a team loses a spot on the 25 man roster for the length of that player's suspension. For MILB, the last club the player played for should have their roster trimmed by the number of players who tested positive. Alternatively, a significant monetary penalty could be imposed on the parent club for each positive test - I'm talking a painful amount, designed to create an incentive for the clubs to pay attention, rather then ignore a known problem.

Right now, baseball is playing (and knowingly playing) whack-a-mole, with penalties ONLY being felt by the player; once the penalties are felt by the clubs, the field might get a bit more level.

How does a team monitor a player?  

This is an entertainment business.  Why would MLB want to put a stop to it?  If anything they would want to find away to make it safer and legal.  That would be like the Porn industry making breast implants illegal.  

Just off the top of my head (and if the clubs wanted to develop methods, I'm sure each could), clubs could test their players and turn in the players who test positive - without penalty to the team. Players who test positive by MLB are punished along with their clubs. 

Each year, ST is replete with players who added 20 pounds of muscle or 5+ mph to the FB. The clubs reactions to these guys? "Great off season!"

While I am not saying the clubs know EVERY player who is using, the clubs have reasonable suspicions of many others - by just looking at huge performance jumps in metrics where all other players improve incrementally.

If instead of this reaction ("great off season work"), the club sends the players who display those incredible changes for testing, and reports the positive test, the incentives change.

Until the punishments affect the clubs, the clubs could care less about positive tests of their prospects. They do, however, make a big show of releasing their non-prospect players who test positive. The clubs present reactions are just enough to keep the public pleasantly, blissfully and ignorantly believing the game is reasonably clean.

MLB doesn't care!  The fans don't care! 2015 NL MVP

Maybe we want the illusion it's clean.  

real green posted:

Maybe we want the illusion it's clean.  

Real Green,

My son as a pitcher, looked like Harper on the left when he was that age. Now, being able to lift more due to not pitching, he looks like Harper to the left. He has a personal trainer he works with and now into cross fit training. He works REALLY hard to look that way.

My son doesn't take PEDs.  I don't think its fair to assume that everyone who gets bigger in the off season uses PEDs. If you have money , you can look like anyone you want. One gets tested when they come to camp.  If they test negative, people can think all that they want.

I believe the performance jump in metrics is the give away. Example Ryan Braun who was up for a big $$$ and MVP, as well as Peralta, Colon and others.  Aging players, Manny Ramirez and Roger Clemens. The jump in velocity  by a young pitcher especially after a rehab.

Not necessarily how one looks. JMO.

Was he doing lifts with his chin and forehead.  Classic roid facial features. 

No jump in performance???  

All coming off an injury!  

Real Green, with an accusation like that, care to put your name on it? 

TPM posted:

real green posted:

Maybe we want the illusion it's clean.  

Real Green,

My son as a pitcher, looked like Harper on the left when he was that age. Now, being able to lift more due to not pitching, he looks like Harper to the left. He has a personal trainer he works with and now into cross fit training. He works REALLY hard to look that way.

My son doesn't take PEDs.  I don't think its fair to assume that everyone who gets bigger in the off season uses PEDs. If you have money , you can look like anyone you want. One gets tested when they come to camp.  If they test negative, people can think all that they want.

I believe the performance jump in metrics is the give away. Example Ryan Braun who was up for a big $$$ and MVP, as well as Peralta, Colon and others.  Aging players, Manny Ramirez and Roger Clemens. The jump in velocity  by a young pitcher especially after a rehab.

Not necessarily how one looks. JMO.

Everyone I know personally that looks like that has at minimum tried PED's.  They are readily available and very much a part of crossfit as well as every other gym.  Crossfit kicked my butt for about a year.  LOL

I suspect anyone that gains mass weight and bulk over a short period of time.  Sure it can happen but I have never seen it without assistance.  

I have no need to put my name on a public forum.  It seems silly to not suspect someone of steroid use when it is staring us in the face.  I like how a radio personality put it the other day in regards to Peyton Manning. 

"I would like to think that Peyton Manning has not used steroids, would I be shocked if it came out that he has?  NO"

I think we would like to think that steroids are not a major part of professional sports.  That thinking can blind us from the obvious.  Show me proof kind of statements.  

I know that PEDs are a part of professional sports. There is a lot of cheating that goes on in professional sports (read my posts).

Until someone tests positive, you can't prove anything.

Why not put your name on a public forum? Most of us know who others are who post. Don't assume everyone is anonymous.

"It is unfair to those players that get beat out because they followed the rules, but this is no different from what goes on daily out in the real world.  What really gets me is when I find out my neighbor has been stealing cable for 10 years while I've been playing by the rules and paying up every month."

First, kudo's to you and I do mean it genuinely that you did what was right (and expected) for not cheating your cable company out of what was due them each month. 

I know it's a bit silly in contrast but, it's small examples of "doing what is right" like you mentioned above where I, like you are able to lay my head down each night with a clear conscious and blissfully doze off to sleep. I don't have to worry about a cable company showing up with local law enforcement at my door serving notice that I've been cheating them for XXX. Nor, would I want to be that player who has to wonder each day if they are going to give a urine test. Just the guilt alone each and every day KNOWING that I was doing something wrong over my teammates just to get or keep that advantage has to weigh on one's mind. And don't tell me that it doesn't. We're all created with a certain amount of conscious and know right from wrong. Otherwise, most of these players would be elsewhere. I agree with Goosegg about WHERE the punishment could be shared instead of just the player and that's the individual teams. Until that happens these players who cheat will continue to get nothing more than rubber stamped. 

Those pics of Harper above are mind boggling! Wow! It reminds me of how Barry Bonds used to look and how he looked towards the end of his career. 

Hank Aaron's first four years HR totals.  13, 27, 26, 44.

Guess MLB could save a lot of money implementing testing and have real green look at their foreheads.

YOUNGGUNDAD - Thanks for the kudos.  Don't really have a neighbor that steals cable, but have run across similar situations.  While 95% of me is glad that I do not have to look over my shoulder, the other 5% of me - late at night - sometimes thinks about all the little benefits I'm missing out on.  I get the feeling that the more often you take advantage of these "benefits", the percentages may move.  The less guilt you feel after the third or fourth occasion, the less need one has to look over their shoulder.  I just didn't want you to think I was 100%, but rather still have a small dark side that luckily I'm able to keep boxed up.  Kind of makes me appreciate my 95% all the more.

My cable example may be a little outdated.  In college (years ago), I often had free cable as a result of my roommate.  The cable guy would regularly unplug those not paying and folks would go back later and plug themselves - and many others - back in - kind of made the offending party hard to pinpoint.

Go44dad posted:

Hank Aaron's first four years HR totals.  13, 27, 26, 44.

Guess MLB could save a lot of money implementing testing and have real green look at their foreheads.

I was just responding to TPM regarding it takes more than looks.  He gets suspicious when there is a significant improvement after injury.  Maybe Hank Aaron found the coffee pot with the green top?  This isn't a new issue.  These players have unbelievable talent.  PED's are not some magical drug that makes them incredible.  It allows them to train harder and maximize the training.  PED users are typically the hardest working guys in the gym.  You could call it a side effect of the drug.

I am not arguing for its use.  I just suspect it is a much more common than the general fan realizes or wants to realize and understand why.      

RG, I understand.  This is just a chat board.  No worries.

real green posted:

Go44dad posted:

Hank Aaron's first four years HR totals.  13, 27, 26, 44.

Guess MLB could save a lot of money implementing testing and have real green look at their foreheads.

I was just responding to TPM regarding it takes more than looks.  He gets suspicious when there is a significant improvement after injury.  Maybe Hank Aaron found the coffee pot with the green top?  This isn't a new issue.  These players have unbelievable talent.  PED's are not some magical drug that makes them incredible.  It allows them to train harder and maximize the training.  PED users are typically the hardest working guys in the gym.  You could call it a side effect of the drug.

I am not arguing for its use.  I just suspect it is a much more common than the general fan realizes or wants to realize and understand why.      

If you read my posts from the beginning you will see that I acknowledged the use of PED, not approved but acknowledged that its is used.

Then I cited my examples of those that had been caught. Free agency, aging, coming back from injury. All of this does raise suspicion and has proven to be true.

But I never accused anyone directly as you did.  

As far as your last statement, it is something that I have always stated, its  much more common than fans realize.  

BTW, next time add an s before the he.   Maybe you were assuming that because this is a baseball website, that I was a guy, just like you are assuming Harper uses PEDs.  Sometimes you got to get ALL of the facts and not just assume.

Stay real green. 

TPM posted:

real green posted:

Go44dad posted:

Hank Aaron's first four years HR totals.  13, 27, 26, 44.

Guess MLB could save a lot of money implementing testing and have real green look at their foreheads.

I was just responding to TPM regarding it takes more than looks.  He gets suspicious when there is a significant improvement after injury.  Maybe Hank Aaron found the coffee pot with the green top?  This isn't a new issue.  These players have unbelievable talent.  PED's are not some magical drug that makes them incredible.  It allows them to train harder and maximize the training.  PED users are typically the hardest working guys in the gym.  You could call it a side effect of the drug.

I am not arguing for its use.  I just suspect it is a much more common than the general fan realizes or wants to realize and understand why.      

If you read my posts from the beginning you will see that I acknowledged the use of PED, not approved but acknowledged that its is used.

Then I cited my examples of those that had been caught. Free agency, aging, coming back from injury. All of this does raise suspicion and has proven to be true.

But I never accused anyone directly as you did.  

As far as your last statement, it is something that I have always stated, its  much more common than fans realize.  

BTW, next time add an s before the he.   Maybe you were assuming that because this is a baseball website, that I was a guy, just like you are assuming Harper uses PEDs.  Sometimes you got to get ALL of the facts and not just assume.

Stay real green. 

I just pointed out visual signs of steroid use but I have no proof.  If a family member lost 30lbs, had the shakes and started stealing, I would suspect they may have a drug problem.  Even if I never caught them red handed.  I would offer them love and support but would not stick my head in the sand and let them baby sit my kids because I didn't have proof.  If I could only tell you the things mom never saw through her rose colored glasses.