Phrase, "throws a heavy ball." Explain please.

My kid pitched occasionally on his club team (RHP). The PC used to say he threw a heavy ball, which to him meant that his 2-seam had a tight rotation and natural late sink. His ball made a loud buzzing sound, and it broke down and in on RH batters. For as little as he pitched, he had more than his share of broken bats. 

Makes me think also of term, "Sinker ball pitcher." 

Anyone care to explain that one also?

A "heavy ball" is one that has late movement and hits the receiver's glove in a non-sweet spot.   It hurts the hand, and the ball can feel like it weighs a pound when that happens.  Hence the term, "Heavy ball."

As for "Sinker ball pitcher."  That is someone who relies on the sinker pitch as his main fastball.  He generates a lot of ground ball outs.  

The sinker ball is often thrown as a two-seamer, and the thumb may be moved in towards the pitcher's body, e.g., a RHP would shift the thumb in to his left - towards his body.  This is opposed to having the thumb more directly underneath the ball.   The result is the ball rotates less and has a tendency to fall or sink more than a four seam fastball.    They will often move in towards a right hand hitter as well.  It is called a sinking fastball or "Sinker."

Teaching Elder posted:

A "heavy ball" is one that has late movement and hits the receiver's glove in a non-sweet spot.   It hurts the hand, and the ball can feel like it weighs a pound when that happens.  Hence the term, "Heavy ball."

As for "Sinker ball pitcher."  That is someone who relies on the sinker pitch as his main fastball.  He generates a lot of ground ball outs.  

The sinker ball is often thrown as a two-seamer, and the thumb may be moved in towards the pitcher's body, e.g., a RHP would shift the thumb in to his left - towards his body.  This is opposed to having the thumb more directly underneath the ball.   The result is the ball rotates less and has a tendency to fall or sink more than a four seam fastball.    They will often move in towards a right hand hitter as well.  It is called a sinking fastball or "Sinker."

This is correct. You may also hear the term "run" or "arm-side run" when referring to a sinker (from a RHP) that moves in towards a right hand hitter.

Teaching Elder posted:

A "heavy ball" is one that has late movement and hits the receiver's glove in a non-sweet spot.   It hurts the hand, and the ball can feel like it weighs a pound when that happens.  Hence the term, "Heavy ball."

 

That's true from the catcher's perspective.  From a batter's perspective, it is a pitch that they can't seem to hit on the "sweet spot" of the bat.  Everything everyone else has said is correct.  Ball has late movement, usually lateral and with sink.  Therefore, the hitter will hit the ball off the handle or the end of the bat, which makes the ball feel heavier.  We all know hits off the handle hurt...  

bballman posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

A "heavy ball" is one that has late movement and hits the receiver's glove in a non-sweet spot.   It hurts the hand, and the ball can feel like it weighs a pound when that happens.  Hence the term, "Heavy ball."

 

That's true from the catcher's perspective.  From a batter's perspective, it is a pitch that they can't seem to hit on the "sweet spot" of the bat.  Everything everyone else has said is correct.  Ball has late movement, usually lateral and with sink.  Therefore, the hitter will hit the ball off the handle or the end of the bat, which makes the ball feel heavier.  We all know hits off the handle hurt...  

Never heard of it from the hitter's perspective before.  But makes sense.

Much like life before Youtube, I don't know what I'd do without this site?

Great and informative commentary already on my query. 

Thank you.

A "heavy ball" (two seam) if left up or thrown on outside of plate and moves to center (RHP/RHB) will go a long way over the fence.  Velocity is usually 3-4 mph slower than a four seam.  The more the thumb is tucked under, the slower the velocity (and less spin rate).  

If you start to look at spin rates on fastballs for MLB players, the much higher and much lower spin rates are the better pitchers.

Go44dad posted:

A "heavy ball" (two seam) if left up or thrown on outside of plate and moves to center (RHP/RHB) will go a long way over the fence.  Velocity is usually 3-4 mph slower than a four seam.  The more the thumb is tucked under, the slower the velocity (and less spin rate).  

If you start to look at spin rates on fastballs for MLB players, the much higher and much lower spin rates are the better pitchers.

Any ball left up or over the center of the plate will go a long way over the fence...   

But, yes, with a pitcher that throws a 2 seamer, he needs to learn to start the pitch in a different spot than where he wants it to wind up.  And the higher up in the zone it is, the less sink it will have.  A 4 seam is a straighter, faster pitch and you can start it where you want it to wind up.  Both pitches can wind up in the wrong spot though...

bballman posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

A "heavy ball" is one that has late movement and hits the receiver's glove in a non-sweet spot.   It hurts the hand, and the ball can feel like it weighs a pound when that happens.  Hence the term, "Heavy ball."

 

That's true from the catcher's perspective.  From a batter's perspective, it is a pitch that they can't seem to hit on the "sweet spot" of the bat.  Everything everyone else has said is correct.  Ball has late movement, usually lateral and with sink.  Therefore, the hitter will hit the ball off the handle or the end of the bat, which makes the ball feel heavier.  We all know hits off the handle hurt...  

Yeah, it was originally a hitters term to describe those pitchers for whom, even when they barreled up the pitch, it didn't seem to travel well off the bat and felt "heavy." I hear the same from catchers and have always wondered if rpm differences in a pitch can make them feel "heavier."

roothog66 posted:

bballman posted:

Teaching Elder posted:

A "heavy ball" is one that has late movement and hits the receiver's glove in a non-sweet spot.   It hurts the hand, and the ball can feel like it weighs a pound when that happens.  Hence the term, "Heavy ball."

 

That's true from the catcher's perspective.  From a batter's perspective, it is a pitch that they can't seem to hit on the "sweet spot" of the bat.  Everything everyone else has said is correct.  Ball has late movement, usually lateral and with sink.  Therefore, the hitter will hit the ball off the handle or the end of the bat, which makes the ball feel heavier.  We all know hits off the handle hurt...  

Yeah, it was originally a hitters term to describe those pitchers for whom, even when they barreled up the pitch, it didn't seem to travel well off the bat and felt "heavy." I hear the same from catchers and have always wondered if rpm differences in a pitch can make them feel "heavier."

I think it's the RPM difference, but because of the visual perception of batter and catcher.  The ball "drops" in relation to a higher RPM pitch, and misses the sweet spot of the bat/glove.  The bat vibrates b/c it missed the sweet spot, the catcher gets it lower in the hand, instead of web/crease.  It feels "heavy".

It has a lot to do with the spin, sometimes lack of spin.

Still thinking back to playing days there seemed to be certain guys both pitchers and position players that just seemed like they were throwing a heavier ball. Hated playing catch with those types.

i am a neophyte to all of this so can somebody please explain what a previous poster meant when they said this

A "heavy ball" (two seam) if left up or thrown on outside of plate and moves to center (RHP/RHB) will go a long way over the fence.  Velocity is usually 3-4 mph slower than a four seam.  The more the thumb is tucked under, the slower the velocity (and less spin rate).  

i am confused because as I learn about radar guns and the glove radar it appears that there is a difference between the speed when it leaves the hand and when it crosses the plate.  and it sounds like out of the hand is most commonly used for velocity readings. if a two seam slows down because of how the air affects the seams how would a radar gun pick up on the 3-4 mile difference out of the hand? I am sure there is an obvious answer and sorry for such a stupid question.

e are just hicks in the sticks out here :-)

Ah. Don't worry about it.  Happy to try to help.  Glove radar does pick up and "across the plate" speed.  It uses a rather week Doppler system to read speeds from about three feet away.  The ball is naturally going to slow down after it leaves the pitcher's hand. There's no longer force being applied to it.  Like shooting an elk deer with a 3006.  The further away, the more drop in the bullet since force is being slowly lost over the course of distance traveled.  A baseball slows some 1 mph per 7 feet traveled.  You have to subtract or add to get the out of hand speed. 

Now, as to the two seamer matter.  What's the difference in shooting a 3006 vs a 38 snub?  Obviously the load, but as you probably know, barrel length is a key factor.  But even more than that is riffeling.  38s have shorter barrels and less riffeling as a result.  Bullets lose speed pretty quickly and begin to drop.   Now, what if you have a civil war era muzzle loader and a 3006?  Barrel lengths can be similar. The muzzle loader probably even longer. But, those old muzzle load guns had no riffeling.  This no spin and shorter shot length and decreased accuracy.  Same applies with baseballs.   The more back spin a pitcher puts on the ball Nd the more seams that are cutting through the air, the faster and straighter the ball goes.  The aerodynamics will also cause it to drop less.   Two seamer have fewer seams cutting through the air.  You have more drag on the ball, and while the ball may even spin at the same rate,  aerodynamic principles will say that the ball HAS to drop more and will go slower.  Just like a mussle ball or 38 snub shot.   

some pitchers throw a ball that just seems awful to hit, is it rotation, late movement etc? I don't know but it sure is true...I have no doubt physics says it is impossible but I but I know how it feels!!

Same with an exploding fastball, over the years there have been a handful of guys who's ball seems to pick up speed on the way to the plate, I know damn well that is impossible but again for some reason that is how it seems to a hitter.

old_school posted:

some pitchers throw a ball that just seems awful to hit, is it rotation, late movement etc? I don't know but it sure is true...I have no doubt physics says it is impossible but I but I know how it feels!!

Same with an exploding fastball, over the years there have been a handful of guys who's ball seems to pick up speed on the way to the plate, I know damn well that is impossible but again for some reason that is how it seems to a hitter.

I have seen where it looks like the batter hit the ball with all his might, square on, and the ball goes up in the air to about the second basemen (i.e. it didn't go far) and appears to have a backspin, as in it's coming back towards the batter, as it's coming down.  Is this "heavy ball" what causes that?

i actually view a heavy ball as one with less late movement but one that has less spin,   if you have caught someone that throws a lower spin fast ball you know what i mean its heavy when it hits the mitt,    a high spin ball tends to have more late break and is just livlier and much less predictable,   actually makes me a little nervous to catch without gear.  

i actually view a heavy ball as one with less late movement and  that has less spin,   if you have caught someone that throws a lower spin fast ball you know what i mean its heavy when it hits the mitt,    a high spin ball tends to have more late break and is just livlier and much less predictable,   actually makes me a little nervous to catch without gear.  

they track the spin at PG  and lower spin fastball can result in more grounders are harder to get in play,  the high spinner gets more strikeouts. 

i actually view a heavy ball as one with less late movement and  that has less spin,   if you have caught someone that throws a lower spin fast ball you know what i mean its heavy when it hits the mitt,    a high spin ball tends to have more late break and is just livlier and much less predictable,   actually makes me a little nervous to catch without gear.  

they track the spin at PG  and lower spin fastball can result in more grounders are harder to get in play,  the high spinner gets more strikeouts.