Pitching at the PG 15u tournament.

Not to sound flippant, but you're saying that the kids who are throwing really hard are trying to throw really hard?!?

All kidding aside, I don't know how long they'll last, but intent to throw hard is an important factor in velocity development.

When you put it that way, my question does seem silly LOL,  no question..... Intent to throw hard is what we were seeing. I think we'll stick to stride length, hip separation  and hopefully puberty will take care of velocity. Thx.

I've had similar thoughts and questions reading some of these scouting reports that all tend to focus on velocity and seems to have little mention of results. Also remembering other posts about a few mphs and how schools are looking for certain #'s. Wondering overall is it more important to sell out for a few more ticks regardless of results/control?

PA2020Lefty posted:

I've had similar thoughts and questions reading some of these scouting reports that all tend to focus on velocity and seems to have little mention of results. Also remembering other posts about a few mphs and how schools are looking for certain #'s. Wondering overall is it more important to sell out for a few more ticks regardless of results/control?

Guys - Velocity is and will always be king and it's just the hard truth. Scouts and pitching coaches feel like they can teach a kid how to pitch if he has velo but can't teach velo. 

Example - I know a kid (2019) who can REALLY pitch.  He gives you a chance to win every time he pitches.

Now, he threw a gem at the 15U WWBA but wasn't mentioned in the 'scout notes.' Why? I am not sure of the answer but my theory is because he can break 80mph. He is consistently low to mid 70's and I believe his best FB is 78.  Nothing wrong with that but not many RC's are going to go back and tell their HC that you gotta see this kid even though he's mid-70's. Is it fair? Probably not but it's the reality of recruiting. 

Watch those videos on the daily reports, it's kind of scary watching ( I guess they are called max effort) the kids throwing there. My question was how it translates to the next level, I can't think of any current MLB or NCAA guys who throw like this. Maybe Tug McGraw from years ago threw like this.

Nonamedad posted:

Watch those videos on the daily reports, it's kind of scary watching ( I guess they are called max effort) the kids throwing there. My question was how it translates to the next level, I can't think of any current MLB or NCAA guys who throw like this. Maybe Tug McGraw from years ago threw like this.

Yeah thats kinda my question and I think what started the post.

I know velo is king - but are schools looking at a delivery if changing it to something more efficient/repeatable, while maybe making them a better pitcher, might reduce that velocity to a # they wouldn't have considered initially.

PA2020Lefty posted:

I've had similar thoughts and questions reading some of these scouting reports that all tend to focus on velocity and seems to have little mention of results. Also remembering other posts about a few mphs and how schools are looking for certain #'s. Wondering overall is it more important to sell out for a few more ticks regardless of results/control?

Yes, sell out.  Throw as hard as you can.  Not every pitch, not all the time.  But throw hard with intent.

Velocity yes.....and exposure to the right coaches.  The exposure part is tough, which is why when you get the chance to throw at the WWBA, you have GOT to go ALL OUT!!!   You may not get another shot.....especially with 40-50 coaches watching. 

 I ran a team at 15U and 16U.  We had 7 really really good pitchers out of 12 kids (all 7 are pitching in college....4 at D1's.  We weren't a part of a "big organization" so I had to do everything I could to get the word out on these kids so coaches would come see us.  In two years of playing in the best tourneys, competing with and beating the "big boys".....we really hadn't gotten any real attention from the big name schools.  Our pitchers were all 84-85 max for most of those two years.  The last tourney of our 16U year, we were playing Top Tier out of Illinois in a tourney at a B1G school.  There were a dozen coaches there....all to see Top Tier.  I took our roster to each and every one of them and most didn't even thank me....they were too busy watching the TT guys warm up....lol.    Our top guy, 6'0 LHP throwing 85-86 that day held them to 3 hits in a 2-0 loss (errors).  2 minutes after, the HC of that school was in our dugout asking to have our kid and his parents meet him.  He ended up with an offer from them a month or so later and is pitching there.

The other pitchers all grew and increased velocity over the next summer.  6'5 lefty got to 90...and his phone and email blew up....he's at Louisville.  My son started regularly throwing 87-88 (5'10, 150ish)....and ended up at a D1.  Another kid got a late D1 offer after throwing 90 in the fall.  2 D2's both got offers once they hit 87 and a JUCO kid signed after he got to 87 (just signed with the same D2 as the other 2 guys for next season) 

I guess to answer your question 87 seems to be the number for RHP.....and maybe a little less for a lefty. 

For the vast majority of kids wanting to play college ball, I think hitting some MPH thresholds will get you "noticed" but you then have to back it up with good pitching.  I'm not talking about the 98th percentile where someone might say "you can't teach velocity", I'm talking about the 80th percentile where you want to be scouted as having solid pitches (always nice to read more velocity is likely).  

PG and others cannot spend 1-2 hours on every kid they rank, and therefore velocity is probably used sometimes to place a kid on the board (say top 1,000), but a college coach looking to recruit has some other data available.  Gamechanger will provide a decent recap of a pitching outing to include ground ball and fly ball outs as well as strike percentage.  I think TrackMan - once it gets a little more affordable and rolled out at more locations - will be able to add significantly.  Pitchers are going to give up hits, especially once they start facing top competition, but a coach would be a lot happier with a blooper over the 2nd baseman's head versus a shot that bounces off the wall (both end up a singles in the box score).  If you look at how quickly technology advances in terms of access and price and you look at how TrackMan is used at the MLB level, it shouldn't be too many years until a coach might ask a recruit to upload their "data set".

I've read on this board that many times a pitcher in his first year at college can lose a few MPH as the coaches work on improving control and repeatability and maybe iron out any violent movements especially when trying to make the kid a starting pitcher.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Velocity yes.....and exposure to the right coaches.  The exposure part is tough, which is why when you get the chance to throw at the WWBA, you have GOT to go ALL OUT!!!   You may not get another shot.....especially with 40-50 coaches watching. 

 I ran a team at 15U and 16U.  We had 7 really really good pitchers out of 12 kids (all 7 are pitching in college....4 at D1's.  We weren't a part of a "big organization" so I had to do everything I could to get the word out on these kids so coaches would come see us.  In two years of playing in the best tourneys, competing with and beating the "big boys".....we really hadn't gotten any real attention from the big name schools.  Our pitchers were all 84-85 max for most of those two years.  The last tourney of our 16U year, we were playing Top Tier out of Illinois in a tourney at a B1G school.  There were a dozen coaches there....all to see Top Tier.  I took our roster to each and every one of them and most didn't even thank me....they were too busy watching the TT guys warm up....lol.    Our top guy, 6'0 LHP throwing 85-86 that day held them to 3 hits in a 2-0 loss (errors).  2 minutes after, the HC of that school was in our dugout asking to have our kid and his parents meet him.  He ended up with an offer from them a month or so later and is pitching there.

The other pitchers all grew and increased velocity over the next summer.  6'5 lefty got to 90...and his phone and email blew up....he's at Louisville.  My son started regularly throwing 87-88 (5'10, 150ish)....and ended up at a D1.  Another kid got a late D1 offer after throwing 90 in the fall.  2 D2's both got offers once they hit 87 and a JUCO kid signed after he got to 87 (just signed with the same D2 as the other 2 guys for next season) 

I guess to answer your question 87 seems to be the number for RHP.....and maybe a little less for a lefty. 

Good points! RC's can't get to every game as teams are playing all over the city but I can guarantee you they are looking at the velo numbers under the 'daily leaders' tab. 

Does anyone have any opinions or comments about which programs are actively seeking recruits at the 15u WWBA versus programs that may simply be familiarizing themselves with the group?  I assume 95% of these kids at this summer's 15u WWBA are 2019s - rising sophomores.  Which programs are looking for exceptional performances and how many D1 programs are really going to wait until next year's 16u WWBA to get a better feel for the remaining kids (the ones not in the 98th percentile that may have already committed Power 5).  I know the recruiting timeline has sped up, but for the vast majority of kids wanting to pitch in college, their rising sophomore summer is not going to be make or break.  If you want to go to Vandy and pitch, then you had better flash some big number, but I would not recommend some 15u pitcher sitting at 80 try to throw 85+.  Come back next summer sitting at 85 - will good pitches - and you should get a chance to play somewhere.  If you can fling one closer to 90 and get that posted, that may get you a few looks but you had better be able to back that up with some actual pitching and at least one decent off speed pitch.

2019Dad posted:

Not to sound flippant, but you're saying that the kids who are throwing really hard are trying to throw really hard?!?

All kidding aside, I don't know how long they'll last, but intent to throw hard is an important factor in velocity development.

2019 you and I have talked many times about our sons' velocity or in my case lack thereof!  The intent to throw hard is my single biggest frustration with him. He just doesn't seem to be making any effort at all to throw hard. He takes easy effort to a new level lol.  He is 14 huge and only pushes 75. And usually he hovers upper 60's to very low 70's. He has learned how to manipulate movement. Throws three different two seemers a wicked change and a curveball that is successful in varying degrees depending on the day. He is insanely difficult to square up giving up only two extra base hits - both doubles - his entire travel season of about 50 innings so far. Is undefeated on the year and the only time the team has lost a game he pitched in was a game he left with a 4-2 lead.  And yet I am realistic enough to know that without that velocity a sum total of zero scouts will be interested as he gets older. If he gets to 80 let's say by 15 - still no one will care. Seems like whether you are 14 or 17 it doesn't matter. If you are not at least mid 80's they don't care to look - which I think is totally understandable. So long story short, throw as hard as you can cause velocity is still king - at least til the spin rate takes over!!!

A good friend has a son whose 15U team just played at the 16U WWBA.  They are fairly well known as this group of kids has been together for several years.  They won their pool that included a couple bigger name 16U teams.  They had ALOT of major college coaches at their games.  They had a pitcher/SS who was already getting some attention throw 90+ and get offers from an ACC, SEC and B1G school during the event and commit to the B1G school on the spot.  His son had a B1G school come to watch him at EVERY game and has him scheduled for a visit this fall. I have known the kid for years...watched him play this spring as a HS freshman starting on Varsity.  The kid is just a ridiculous athlete.  Could probably play every position but pitcher and start on most varsity teams.   He has gotten contact from several other majors since they got home.  Coaches know what they are looking at

Buckeye 2015 posted:

A good friend has a son whose 15U team just played at the 16U WWBA.  They are fairly well known as this group of kids has been together for several years.  They won their pool that included a couple bigger name 16U teams.  They had ALOT of major college coaches at their games.  They had a pitcher/SS who was already getting some attention throw 90+ and get offers from an ACC, SEC and B1G school during the event and commit to the B1G school on the spot.  His son had a B1G school come to watch him at EVERY game and has him scheduled for a visit this fall. I have known the kid for years...watched him play this spring as a HS freshman starting on Varsity.  The kid is just a ridiculous athlete.  Could probably play every position but pitcher and start on most varsity teams.   He has gotten contact from several other majors since they got home.  Coaches know what they are looking at

I don't want to take over the thread, but how are these kids being contacted - at the tournament?  Are the recruiters talking to the coach and the coach asks the kid to give the recruiter a phone call, or what?  Just curious about how these big tournaments work with kids before they are eligible to be contacted directly, since I'm hearing about "committing on the spot."

MomLW posted:

 Are the recruiters talking to the coach and the coach asks the kid to give the recruiter a phone call, or what?"

 

That is correct. 

Of course, this doesn't preclude the player proactively reaching out to the RCs of his targeted schools.

Pitch to win! If you do that you will show your best pitches including your best fastball. We see both high and low effort pitchers with and without good velocity.

Velocity creates interest and it often gets rewarded. A couple years ago there was a pitcher we saw many times. Nearly every inning he would strike out the side, but walk three or four, sometimes more. Probably one of the wildest pitching prospects we've ever seen. But he was a fairly easy 96 mph and he had a plus, plus curve ball. He just couldn't throw many strikes.

We ranked him fairly high, but not as high as you might think based on his lack of control. So he ends up committing to Vanderbilt.  Then he gets drafted in the 1st round and signs for nearly $3 million. That is what a great arm can do for you.

Kids need to understand that you can't throw your best velocity without effort.  When scouts talk about effort it is a visual thing.  Some just show a lot more effort while others make it look easy and natural.  But it is not easy to throw high velocity.  So show "your" best velocity when the time is right.  Don't think about throwing the impossible, you'll just muscle up and get tight and that in fact will slow down your fastball. Thinking smooth and fast rather than strong and powerful has helped many, even the big strong, powerful guys.

As far as recruiting goes, just do your best, be who you are.  Work to be who you want.  The most important person you should try to impress is YOU.  That makes things much easier to deal with.

2020dad posted:

2019Dad posted:

Not to sound flippant, but you're saying that the kids who are throwing really hard are trying to throw really hard?!?

All kidding aside, I don't know how long they'll last, but intent to throw hard is an important factor in velocity development.

2019 you and I have talked many times about our sons' velocity or in my case lack thereof!  The intent to throw hard is my single biggest frustration with him. He just doesn't seem to be making any effort at all to throw hard. He takes easy effort to a new level lol.  He is 14 huge and only pushes 75. And usually he hovers upper 60's to very low 70's. He has learned how to manipulate movement. Throws three different two seemers a wicked change and a curveball that is successful in varying degrees depending on the day. He is insanely difficult to square up giving up only two extra base hits - both doubles - his entire travel season of about 50 innings so far. Is undefeated on the year and the only time the team has lost a game he pitched in was a game he left with a 4-2 lead.  And yet I am realistic enough to know that without that velocity a sum total of zero scouts will be interested as he gets older. If he gets to 80 let's say by 15 - still no one will care. Seems like whether you are 14 or 17 it doesn't matter. If you are not at least mid 80's they don't care to look - which I think is totally understandable. So long story short, throw as hard as you can cause velocity is still king - at least til the spin rate takes over!!!

Thanks, this comment resonated with with me. I know after I watched the pitching videos with my son I started talking " max effort"  a lot and I kept getting some serious sideways looks from my son. He finally said very firmly that he was not going to try " max effort". He wants to stay on course and try to add 7 mph in the next 3 years with his arm still attached.

"Don't think about throwing the impossible, you'll just muscle up and get tight and that in fact will slow down your fastball. Thinking smooth and fast rather than strong and powerful has helped many, even the big strong, powerful guys."

You 15U to 17U parents  whose son's are Pitchers you would do yourself some good taking heed to these words from PGStaff above. Loose muscles are faster muscles. Just like batters who grip the bat like a death grip before swinging it. They are inhibiting and tightening their muscles which constrict movement and full body range. It's the exact same thing for the Pitchers. Most RC and Scouts like to see that "Live" arm on a Pitcher and the only way they will see that is when he is loose and smooth. 

YGD