Playing young guys

fhobbs013 posted:

Just seeing what everyone thinks.  We are larger school but are numbers are down in upper class kids for baseball (coaching change few other things)  My question is we have very talented 8th and 9th graders about 6 of them that defensively will be close to ready to play varsity this year but only 1 is physically ready with the bat.  None of them will make a big difference in wins and loses overall.  Should I play them up at varsity level as needed or keep them all together at the J.V. level?  The one ready with the bat will be at the varsity level.  My fear is they go from being really confident to letting doubt creep.  (An 18 year old vs 14 year old and the 18 year old will win 95% of the time)  We have had in the past an issue with our guys believing they can win so I want them to have as much success as possible but want them to be challenged as well.  My thinking right now is play them as much as possible together in J.V. and use them at the varsity level only when I can DH for them.  

I don't see any reason to bring them up if they aren't going to bat.  Any chance you can do it when you play a weaker team that maybe has pitching they can handle?  If not, I'd just leave them on JV....get them as many reps as they can get and tell them to work on getting stronger over the summer/fall and be ready to go next season. 

Didn't even think about that really.  Mainly because we have a very difficult schedule this year without a lot of weaker teams but subbing them in late to get some varsity reps in games where pitching may be weak will be an idea.  Down fall to that is having them dress for Varsity then not playing and being on a bus at 1130 or midnight then having to function at school the next day.  The way our school is set up most upper classmen either have late arrival so they don't have to be at 1st block or work release the leave for an hour and a half and can rest if they are playing late.  The younger kids don't get that option.

Wow, that's definitely a consideration.  Our games started at 4:30....no DH's on weekdays and almost all our games were within an hour of our school....the bus was normally back by 7:30 or 8pm at the latest.  Daughter played volleyball....she had a couple times where she didn't get home until 10:30-11:00 and still had homework to do.  She wasn't a very nice person the next morning

This is always an intriguing topic that has tons of factors that go into the decisions.  But, from what you describe, your situation sounds pretty black and white.  They are not ready for V so they shouldn't play V.  If your V numbers are short to the point where you need help, you bring up the help that is most ready.

Cabbagedad That what I'm thinking as well and we should still make playoffs either way.  V numbers aren't necessary short but some of the 8th and 9th graders may be better than 10th and up.  Still the upper class guys have a shot but ceiling is a lot lower than younger guys will be.  Biggest fear again is letting any doubt get in those young guys heads that they can't beat this team or that because they get run ruled when they are young.  That is the way our upper classmen are now (they believe they can't beat team A becaause they have never beat them even though its different kids now on the team) and I think its why we can't get over the hump we need to.  

Yeah, we took over the program ten years ago and had to fight some of those same issues the first year or so... but if your incoming group is "more talented", I'm guessing they are playing more competitive ball outside of your program (as compared to what the upperclass group did when they were coming up) and will likely handle those things better than you fear.  Still, it doesn't sound like they are quite there yet and if there isn't clear separation, no sense in causing all the trickle-down (or up) issues that will come with that move.

At my sons high school there are certain knowns:

1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team.  Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.

2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.

3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team.  It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on.  The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.

Create your own "KNOWNS" and you could create a winning culture.

Look for ways to get the younger guys experience vs the better competition. Look for ways to expose them to the older talented players in your program and see the work ethic and ability it takes to succeed at that level. Let some of that good stuff rub off on them.

Are they going to be challenged at all by JV play or is this going to be a big step down from what they are used to playing? There is also the fear that they will not be challenged and will create bad habits.

Me personally I never bring a kid up unless he is going to play. And that means play. I never play any player over another player because he's older. Only if he is better. Sometimes a little failure is just what the doctor ordered. If they are going to ride the pine or be DH for leave them down. If they give your team a better opportunity to win because they are the better option in the line up well put them in the line up and let them grind. JMO

Back when my kid was a freshman someone asked if I thought he could make varsity. I responded he’s no doubt good enough to make the roster (team ultimately went 6-16/17th losing season in 20 years) but I believed he would be overwhelmed by the competition (large high school classification) in the games. I also believe the new coach wanted certain older players to filter through and not negatively impact younger players.

Another freshman and he were the last cuts from varsity. The JV team was strong. My son became the first soph starter in six years the following season. Two more sophs were called up early in the season. They were all successful soph year. The team contended for the conference title with their help. Their class was strong. The next two seasons a bunch of players from their class helped the team win two conference titles.

I believe this strong class dominating JV ball as freshmen had a lot to do with their future varsity success.

Softball is different as girls physically mature sooner. Five freshmen led the varsity to their first conference title in years. They won four titles in a row. One thing about softball is a dominant, future D1 freshman pitcher can provide four years of a lot of winning.

I remember one year the second baseman didn’t make a play in the last inning she usually made. It cost the pitcher a no hitter. Coming off the field the second baseman apologized. The pitcher’s response? “It’s not like I had a perfect game going. I’ve pitched so many no hitters, who cares!”

CaCO3Girl posted:

At my sons high school there are certain knowns:

1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team.  Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.

2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.

3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team.  It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on.  The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.

 

Pretty much same here.  Large HS (3,600+) students.  Kids will play up, but normally its only a level.  We have two Frosh teams, two Soph teams and a Varsity / JV Team.  If you don't play in a Varsity game, you get playing time in the JV game that is scheduled after the Varsity game on Saturday.

So a Frosh might play on the Soph team. or a Soph may play on Varsity.   At most one player a year is moved up across the entire program.  But if they are brought up they are going to get significant playing time as a starter.  There is no reason to bring a kid up and sit them on the bench.  They are better getting reps at a lower division they being brought and sitting on the bench unless you are playing a lower level pitcher.

Also, Sr's are preferred over Jr's on the V team.  Unless a kid a is a lot better player the nod is going to go to the Sr. 

If a sophomore (or freshman) is as good or better than a Jr or sr overall, I'd start the younger guy...of course there are lots of variables to be considered

The last few years, I have something I've been trying... 

Each week during the season, I will rotate one or two JV players (from a group that shows most promise and readiness) in with the varsity squad.  That player or two will practice and dress out for games.  If the opportunity comes up for them to play, I will try to get them involved in the game.  This can be challenging as our league is pretty deep and we are often in close games and fighting for playoff positioning.  Also, our non-league schedule was reduced in favor of more league games, so there aren't as many opportunities to play non-starters trying to earn their way up.  But, at least with this weekly rotation, the player is getting consecutive days of working out with the better players and exposed to the V game environment.   At the same time, they are rotated back into JV the following week, so they are playing in games regularly.

Then, if we have injury or other issue with a V player, I have multiple JV kids who are better prepared to step in.  Otherwise, they are better prepared for the next season.

FHOBBS, I'll trade you problems.  We have never had a freshman team.  This year, the numbers at sign-ups were through the roof - certainly enough to add a frosh team.  But we don't have the facilities, equipment, extra transportation vehicles, uni's, coaches, opponents, etc. to add, particularly considering it could be just a one-year thing.  Like your group, there are quite a few talented freshmen coming up.  There will be a lot of cuts ... some decent freshmen and some upperclassmen who are really good kids but not as talented.  Most years, I am able to keep those kids in the program.  Add to that, there are about ten kids in winter sports that I won't see until about a week before our games begin (maybe later if they make playoffs).  Many of these are freshmen that I haven't seen.  So, I may be making several cuts right around our first game.      

I would play my best players regardless of age. 

hshuler posted:

I would play my best players regardless of age. 

Yup

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

CaCO3Girl posted:

At my sons high school there are certain knowns:

1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team.  Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.

2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.

3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team.  It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on.  The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.

Create your own "KNOWNS" and you could create a winning culture.

And everybody gets a juice box and a participation trophy!

What you have described is not a winning culture.  It is a culture that promotes entitlement - and it's way too common at High Schools all across the country. I agree that 8th graders don't belong on a competitive varsity team. But beyond that, the best player should play.  Upperclassmen that aren't good players should not get preferential treatment over younger players that are better.  That is not how the world works.  It doesn't do any good to coddle kids through high school - in fact it sets them up for failure. Kids (and parents) that think their kid should be on the field because he is a senior (and its his turn) are a huge part of the problem with the millennial generation. Things in life should be earned. And if you are not good enough to earn them in a given arena, go find another arena where you are good enough. That is how the world works. 

cabbagedad posted:

hshuler posted:

I would play my best players regardless of age. 

Yup

Putting your best 9 on the field is the easy part of the decision, IMO. When it comes to underclassmen the harder question is, "are the next best 9 players better off on V or JV?"

I'm kind of split on that. I've seen freshman thrive in a limited role, and I've seen them melt down.  Overall, just from anecdotal observation as a parent, I think if a freshman position player is good enough to get lots of reps in practice and some game innings on the field, he's better off on Varsity in most but not all cases.   But if a pitcher will not get game innings, he should play JV.  When  coach keeps a freshman on V just for emergency use, it's shortsighted  and counterproductive.

Cabbagedad we have 13 8th graders and most likely will have to cut some older kids that are great kids but just not as good so I feel your pain.  I like your rotating thing I think I will use that as a reward for a hard week of practice and a chance for young guys to see the level they will have to be at to win.  

Joe all else being equal I'm going to play the older kid for reasons Caco and few other mentioned.  It's their program they are creating the history of the program we have only been a school for 10 years so I want that history to be established and for guys that have "paid the price" so to speak to be the ones on the field if they are equal to a younger kid.  If younger kid is clearly better then yes younger kid plays (on of the freshmen is 6 foot and 215 lbs and ranked one of the better players in the country and competes regularly with 18u teams during summer ball you would think he's a sr unless you knew him)  That kid is going to play.  

I also believe in the whole thing of knowing your teammates and who your going to be playing with so if I can have MIF playing together for 3 or 4 years I think they make each other better and same with a pitcher and catcher or OF all playing together.  

I also don't want to have to deal with all the drama from parents but I know thats coming just a matter of time.  To me if the younger kid is playing there shouldn't be any doubt he's better.  If we just win every game then no parents will complain right lol.   (I can dream right)

I think what will help the most like what 2019 said being up front.  I'm sending out emails this week to all players and parents of what I see their role this year and in the future.  The first line of the email is "I think this will be the case but a lot changes from day to day so nothing is set but I wanted you all to know what we are thinking as of right now"  I also tell all my parents and players that if they don't like the rule they have 3 choices to make.  1) Accept the role and perform in that role while working to get the role they want. 2) Quit the team or become a manager and support the school or join another group on campus. 3) Transfer to another school and I'll help them find the best fit but will be honest to another coach even if its a rival school (no free transfers but a lot of kids do "move" for "academic" reasons that just happen to play sports.