Playing young guys

fhobbs013 posted:

Just seeing what everyone thinks.  We are larger school but are numbers are down in upper class kids for baseball (coaching change few other things)  My question is we have very talented 8th and 9th graders about 6 of them that defensively will be close to ready to play varsity this year but only 1 is physically ready with the bat.  None of them will make a big difference in wins and loses overall.  Should I play them up at varsity level as needed or keep them all together at the J.V. level?  The one ready with the bat will be at the varsity level.  My fear is they go from being really confident to letting doubt creep.  (An 18 year old vs 14 year old and the 18 year old will win 95% of the time)  We have had in the past an issue with our guys believing they can win so I want them to have as much success as possible but want them to be challenged as well.  My thinking right now is play them as much as possible together in J.V. and use them at the varsity level only when I can DH for them.  

I don't see any reason to bring them up if they aren't going to bat.  Any chance you can do it when you play a weaker team that maybe has pitching they can handle?  If not, I'd just leave them on JV....get them as many reps as they can get and tell them to work on getting stronger over the summer/fall and be ready to go next season. 

Didn't even think about that really.  Mainly because we have a very difficult schedule this year without a lot of weaker teams but subbing them in late to get some varsity reps in games where pitching may be weak will be an idea.  Down fall to that is having them dress for Varsity then not playing and being on a bus at 1130 or midnight then having to function at school the next day.  The way our school is set up most upper classmen either have late arrival so they don't have to be at 1st block or work release the leave for an hour and a half and can rest if they are playing late.  The younger kids don't get that option.

Wow, that's definitely a consideration.  Our games started at 4:30....no DH's on weekdays and almost all our games were within an hour of our school....the bus was normally back by 7:30 or 8pm at the latest.  Daughter played volleyball....she had a couple times where she didn't get home until 10:30-11:00 and still had homework to do.  She wasn't a very nice person the next morning

This is always an intriguing topic that has tons of factors that go into the decisions.  But, from what you describe, your situation sounds pretty black and white.  They are not ready for V so they shouldn't play V.  If your V numbers are short to the point where you need help, you bring up the help that is most ready.

Cabbagedad That what I'm thinking as well and we should still make playoffs either way.  V numbers aren't necessary short but some of the 8th and 9th graders may be better than 10th and up.  Still the upper class guys have a shot but ceiling is a lot lower than younger guys will be.  Biggest fear again is letting any doubt get in those young guys heads that they can't beat this team or that because they get run ruled when they are young.  That is the way our upper classmen are now (they believe they can't beat team A becaause they have never beat them even though its different kids now on the team) and I think its why we can't get over the hump we need to.  

Yeah, we took over the program ten years ago and had to fight some of those same issues the first year or so... but if your incoming group is "more talented", I'm guessing they are playing more competitive ball outside of your program (as compared to what the upperclass group did when they were coming up) and will likely handle those things better than you fear.  Still, it doesn't sound like they are quite there yet and if there isn't clear separation, no sense in causing all the trickle-down (or up) issues that will come with that move.

At my sons high school there are certain knowns:

1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team.  Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.

2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.

3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team.  It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on.  The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.

Create your own "KNOWNS" and you could create a winning culture.

Look for ways to get the younger guys experience vs the better competition. Look for ways to expose them to the older talented players in your program and see the work ethic and ability it takes to succeed at that level. Let some of that good stuff rub off on them.

Are they going to be challenged at all by JV play or is this going to be a big step down from what they are used to playing? There is also the fear that they will not be challenged and will create bad habits.

Me personally I never bring a kid up unless he is going to play. And that means play. I never play any player over another player because he's older. Only if he is better. Sometimes a little failure is just what the doctor ordered. If they are going to ride the pine or be DH for leave them down. If they give your team a better opportunity to win because they are the better option in the line up well put them in the line up and let them grind. JMO

Back when my kid was a freshman someone asked if I thought he could make varsity. I responded he’s no doubt good enough to make the roster (team ultimately went 6-16/17th losing season in 20 years) but I believed he would be overwhelmed by the competition (large high school classification) in the games. I also believe the new coach wanted certain older players to filter through and not negatively impact younger players.

Another freshman and he were the last cuts from varsity. The JV team was strong. My son became the first soph starter in six years the following season. Two more sophs were called up early in the season. They were all successful soph year. The team contended for the conference title with their help. Their class was strong. The next two seasons a bunch of players from their class helped the team win two conference titles.

I believe this strong class dominating JV ball as freshmen had a lot to do with their future varsity success.

Softball is different as girls physically mature sooner. Five freshmen led the varsity to their first conference title in years. They won four titles in a row. One thing about softball is a dominant, future D1 freshman pitcher can provide four years of a lot of winning.

I remember one year the second baseman didn’t make a play in the last inning she usually made. It cost the pitcher a no hitter. Coming off the field the second baseman apologized. The pitcher’s response? “It’s not like I had a perfect game going. I’ve pitched so many no hitters, who cares!”

CaCO3Girl posted:

At my sons high school there are certain knowns:

1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team.  Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.

2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.

3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team.  It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on.  The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.

 

Pretty much same here.  Large HS (3,600+) students.  Kids will play up, but normally its only a level.  We have two Frosh teams, two Soph teams and a Varsity / JV Team.  If you don't play in a Varsity game, you get playing time in the JV game that is scheduled after the Varsity game on Saturday.

So a Frosh might play on the Soph team. or a Soph may play on Varsity.   At most one player a year is moved up across the entire program.  But if they are brought up they are going to get significant playing time as a starter.  There is no reason to bring a kid up and sit them on the bench.  They are better getting reps at a lower division they being brought and sitting on the bench unless you are playing a lower level pitcher.

Also, Sr's are preferred over Jr's on the V team.  Unless a kid a is a lot better player the nod is going to go to the Sr. 

If a sophomore (or freshman) is as good or better than a Jr or sr overall, I'd start the younger guy...of course there are lots of variables to be considered

The last few years, I have something I've been trying... 

Each week during the season, I will rotate one or two JV players (from a group that shows most promise and readiness) in with the varsity squad.  That player or two will practice and dress out for games.  If the opportunity comes up for them to play, I will try to get them involved in the game.  This can be challenging as our league is pretty deep and we are often in close games and fighting for playoff positioning.  Also, our non-league schedule was reduced in favor of more league games, so there aren't as many opportunities to play non-starters trying to earn their way up.  But, at least with this weekly rotation, the player is getting consecutive days of working out with the better players and exposed to the V game environment.   At the same time, they are rotated back into JV the following week, so they are playing in games regularly.

Then, if we have injury or other issue with a V player, I have multiple JV kids who are better prepared to step in.  Otherwise, they are better prepared for the next season.

FHOBBS, I'll trade you problems.  We have never had a freshman team.  This year, the numbers at sign-ups were through the roof - certainly enough to add a frosh team.  But we don't have the facilities, equipment, extra transportation vehicles, uni's, coaches, opponents, etc. to add, particularly considering it could be just a one-year thing.  Like your group, there are quite a few talented freshmen coming up.  There will be a lot of cuts ... some decent freshmen and some upperclassmen who are really good kids but not as talented.  Most years, I am able to keep those kids in the program.  Add to that, there are about ten kids in winter sports that I won't see until about a week before our games begin (maybe later if they make playoffs).  Many of these are freshmen that I haven't seen.  So, I may be making several cuts right around our first game.      

I would play my best players regardless of age. 

hshuler posted:

I would play my best players regardless of age. 

Yup

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

CaCO3Girl posted:

At my sons high school there are certain knowns:

1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team.  Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.

2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.

3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team.  It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on.  The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.

Create your own "KNOWNS" and you could create a winning culture.

And everybody gets a juice box and a participation trophy!

What you have described is not a winning culture.  It is a culture that promotes entitlement - and it's way too common at High Schools all across the country. I agree that 8th graders don't belong on a competitive varsity team. But beyond that, the best player should play.  Upperclassmen that aren't good players should not get preferential treatment over younger players that are better.  That is not how the world works.  It doesn't do any good to coddle kids through high school - in fact it sets them up for failure. Kids (and parents) that think their kid should be on the field because he is a senior (and its his turn) are a huge part of the problem with the millennial generation. Things in life should be earned. And if you are not good enough to earn them in a given arena, go find another arena where you are good enough. That is how the world works. 

cabbagedad posted:

hshuler posted:

I would play my best players regardless of age. 

Yup

Putting your best 9 on the field is the easy part of the decision, IMO. When it comes to underclassmen the harder question is, "are the next best 9 players better off on V or JV?"

I'm kind of split on that. I've seen freshman thrive in a limited role, and I've seen them melt down.  Overall, just from anecdotal observation as a parent, I think if a freshman position player is good enough to get lots of reps in practice and some game innings on the field, he's better off on Varsity in most but not all cases.   But if a pitcher will not get game innings, he should play JV.  When  coach keeps a freshman on V just for emergency use, it's shortsighted  and counterproductive.

Cabbagedad we have 13 8th graders and most likely will have to cut some older kids that are great kids but just not as good so I feel your pain.  I like your rotating thing I think I will use that as a reward for a hard week of practice and a chance for young guys to see the level they will have to be at to win.  

Joe all else being equal I'm going to play the older kid for reasons Caco and few other mentioned.  It's their program they are creating the history of the program we have only been a school for 10 years so I want that history to be established and for guys that have "paid the price" so to speak to be the ones on the field if they are equal to a younger kid.  If younger kid is clearly better then yes younger kid plays (on of the freshmen is 6 foot and 215 lbs and ranked one of the better players in the country and competes regularly with 18u teams during summer ball you would think he's a sr unless you knew him)  That kid is going to play.  

I also believe in the whole thing of knowing your teammates and who your going to be playing with so if I can have MIF playing together for 3 or 4 years I think they make each other better and same with a pitcher and catcher or OF all playing together.  

I also don't want to have to deal with all the drama from parents but I know thats coming just a matter of time.  To me if the younger kid is playing there shouldn't be any doubt he's better.  If we just win every game then no parents will complain right lol.   (I can dream right)

I think what will help the most like what 2019 said being up front.  I'm sending out emails this week to all players and parents of what I see their role this year and in the future.  The first line of the email is "I think this will be the case but a lot changes from day to day so nothing is set but I wanted you all to know what we are thinking as of right now"  I also tell all my parents and players that if they don't like the rule they have 3 choices to make.  1) Accept the role and perform in that role while working to get the role they want. 2) Quit the team or become a manager and support the school or join another group on campus. 3) Transfer to another school and I'll help them find the best fit but will be honest to another coach even if its a rival school (no free transfers but a lot of kids do "move" for "academic" reasons that just happen to play sports.

Just to clarify.....some places have 8th graders playing in the spring with HS?  That's not done here in Ohio.  What's the reasoning?  We have junior high baseball in the spring (7th and 8th grade).....just like we do in every sport.  8th graders never play with HS kids.....heck, in Ohio they aren't even allowed to attend a HS practice even if they were good enough to.

We are in the north so not much to worry about with regard to tryouts other than staying sharp and in shape.    

Knowns are that Freshman and sophomores can move up and play, if they are either good enough or kind of good and related to one of the coaches, or have another connection like booster club. Kids who do not play on the summer team affiliated with the Varsity HC (we don't) get dinged.    

My son likes the Varsity HC and the new asst who as his Frosh coach, but he won't play on the affiliated team because he doesn't like the HC of that team, or the players (who tend to be "bad" kids he doesn't have in class).  My kid is 3.95 GPA, and kind of a goody 2 shoes.  Football players run the HS and he doesn't play football, "vape" (whatever that is about)  but he does get along with EVERYONE.  So fine by me, he's making good choices.    We avoid that team and it will hurt us a little.  Not the end of the world.

I know that if my son hits .450 with 5 or 6 home runs and leads his team in all offensive categories and pitching in the first half of the season, like he did last year, they will eventually give him opportunities to play up because the program is also trying to win.   I know that the coaches won't keep his bat out of the lineup forever, so he'll play enough.   We fully expect all kinds of initial injustice and I told my son to relish that with a smile because it will give you something to overcome, and make you a better player and person in the long run.   

We also know that HS ball has absolutely no connection to his college opportunities as long as he stays positive, and that he should work hard but also have fun and enjoy playing with his buddies.  Summer ball is where we'll be getting after it for the next 2 seasons. HS ball is what it is. We view it as important, and fun, but more as the pre-season.  

Yes we can play 7th graders if they are ready here in MS.  Most school don't have a Jr. High baseball team.  I really don't like it because of all the other issues and things that HS kids are doing vs MS kids but if we don't do it you fall behind and the better kids transfer to a program that is allowing it. 

JCG posted:

cabbagedad posted:

hshuler posted:

I would play my best players regardless of age. 

Yup

Putting your best 9 on the field is the easy part of the decision, IMO. When it comes to underclassmen the harder question is, "are the next best 9 players better off on V or JV?"

I'm kind of split on that. I've seen freshman thrive in a limited role, and I've seen them melt down.  Overall, just from anecdotal observation as a parent, I think if a freshman position player is good enough to get lots of reps in practice and some game innings on the field, he's better off on Varsity in most but not all cases.   But if a pitcher will not get game innings, he should play JV.  When  coach keeps a freshman on V just for emergency use, it's shortsighted  and counterproductive.

I agree with everything you said except for the first sentence.  In many cases the best 9 are not on the field.  Only the good HS coaches seem to get that right. 

I had no doubt this thread would turn in this direction. There are some strong beliefs when it comes to this topic. I held my first team meeting Monday. I wanted to make some things clear from the start. One of those things is that nothing and I mean nothing will determine your playing time or lack of playing time that is outside of your control. Your age, your size, your grade year, who your Dad is, who your Mom is, what you did on the field last year, how many awards you have won or haven't won, nothing. What will determine your role on this team?

What you show us now.

There are many issues that arise when guys know they are going to graduate into a role, inherit a role, get a role because of anything outside of what they show on the field. One thing for sure is you don't build a winning culture. You create a culture of entitlement. I am a Jr and he is a Soph so I deserve it. I am a Sr I have paid my dues so it's my turn. So what if I don't work as hard as he does I'm a Sr.

What happens when players know the only factor and I mean the only factor is what they show you as a staff? Then the only thing that matters is totally within their control. It brings about a true competitive environment. What happens when the Soph is at every fall work out. Busts his butt in the off season to get better. Shows up in the spring and clearly is the better player. While the JR or Sr has taken it easy because well he's the Jr or Sr. You start them over the Soph? They get the nod simply because they are the older player? Someone explain to me how that builds a wining culture?

If a Jr or Sr is not the better option than a Soph or Freshman why is that? Was it because they were outworked? Was it because the younger player is just simply more talented? Why should a younger player be punished because he is the younger player? More importantly why should the team be punished? And what about those SR's? Don't they deserve the team mates around them on the field that give them the best opportunity to win? Or would they rather have the less talented buddies around them instead?

I am not looking for an argument just putting some thoughts out there. I have always and will this year practice my team as a unit. We will work on running the bases together. Position play together. Scrimmage together. And the cream will rise to the top. And I won't see year or anything else. I will see best options period. If you are a freshman and you are the best SS in our program you will be the SS. If you can't handle the pressure or your not quite ready you will go where you can play. If you are a Jr or Sr and you think you have graduated into a role you will learn very quickly you have thought wrong.

If a Fr or So is on varsity they are playing a significant role or they are on JV where they can play a significant role. If a Jr or Sr is not capable of playing a significant role they won't be. I understand that others will do things differently. And that's fine by me. I believe that you earn it you don't inherit it.

Our school is about 8 years old and has had a very similar problem.  The ironic part is that one "fix" created other issues. 2016s had some talent when they were freshmen, so 4 were pulled up to start when there freshmen when there were similar players at the higher grades.  Coach chose to build for the future, start the freshmen, and ended up having a lot of upperclassmen quit playing baseball.  2017s were in eighth grade that year and had a ton of talent(including my son).  Fortunately, there is a ton of competitive travel teams, tournaments, and players in central california that play 9-10 months of the year.  This group developed on the circuit and competed on multiple teams and against the best in the west.  During travel ball, these guys were already bonded and would guest play with each others' teams to help build chemistry.  2017s stayed together on frosh and JV during hS season and dominated, went undefeated at JV together.  They should have sought out higher competition, but fortunately, our area has a lot of very talented young pitchers to keep them honest.  

So, fast forward to 2016.  1 more transfer was added to 2016.  Now you have 5 "anointed players" that have started on varsity for 4 years, meanwhile the true talent was in the junior class.  Seniors hitting low 200s were getting a majority of at bats and juniors on spot duty would be hitting 150 plus points higher.  That year was decent still.  We came in second in league and lost first playoff game.  My son at least held down one spot in CF that was vacant and was first team all league and district at a new position since the infield was spoken for already.

2017, the group that had to wait for their chance to play.  Start the season 26-0.  A new D1 school that no one in rankings had heard of before, finally climb the rankings to peak at 8 in the state.  Early season offensive categories lead the section and are just absurd for the whole lineup.  The season does fall short of a section banner but is a very proud and historical season.  Every one of those 2017s are playing at the next level for baseball and 1 is playing football, even the reserves.  Coach had been coaching 26 years, felt that easily was the best team he ever had, and doesnt think he will ever have a team like that again.

Back to the OP, I feel that if you bring those guys up too early it may be a mistake for a few reasons.  What if there is more talent behind them, do you leap frog these guys after they have been varsity for 4 years?  I believe that live at bats and innings pitched are irreplacable.  Team chemistry goes a long way.  Work closely with the freshman and JV coach.  Work hand in hand with the pitchers, catchers and fielders scouting the opponents.  Use these years to develop skills, speed, agility, communication and chemistry.  Let the pitcher and catcher call their own game, and review the reasons why and approach.    Have that JV core play off season or against other varsity teams.  Let them scrimmage your varsity.  These next few years are going to be a challenge for you.  Some of those juniors and seniors, develop them in your program.  I see way too many HS coaches that go through the motions of practice and fill out a lineup slip.  Work your butts off.  You may be surprised.  Then come 2 years from now, see if you built 3 solid groups of players.  Id rather have 1 solid team with the ability to have more than 1 good team, rather than bastardizing 3 groups of players.  Sorry for the long rant, but there is a butterfly effect of moving players up through the levels.

fhobbs013 posted:

I think what will help the most like what 2019 said being up front.  I'm sending out emails this week to all players and parents of what I see their role this year and in the future.  The first line of the email is "I think this will be the case but a lot changes from day to day so nothing is set but I wanted you all to know what we are thinking as of right now"  I also tell all my parents and players that if they don't like the rule they have 3 choices to make.  1) Accept the role and perform in that role while working to get the role they want. 2) Quit the team or become a manager and support the school or join another group on campus. 3) Transfer to another school and I'll help them find the best fit but will be honest to another coach even if its a rival school (no free transfers but a lot of kids do "move" for "academic" reasons that just happen to play sports.

Are you guys already practicing?  All we could do in the winter was throw/hit indoors and couldn't do that "officially" until Feb 1st.  Everything else is considered "conditioning" or had to be done by the kids with no coaching involved.  Personally I wouldn't consider giving out any info on what you think their roles may be....especially now.  Why give parents/players extra time to be mad about it.  Returning kids should have a pretty good idea already...if they worked hard over the summer that will show up once practice starts.  I would think you are just setting yourself up for an extra couple months of grief by even discussing roles with parents at all...and not sure why you would think they deserve to know that info now.  Players maybe...parents....not a chance.

As far as your 3 choices....again, just setting yourself up for a bunch of unwanted grief....I wouldn't consider that kind of thing under any circumstances.  First of all, #1 is self explanatory...and falls under the "coach makes the decisions....not players/parents discussion that you shouldn't have to have by the time kids are in HS.  #2 and #3 aren't something I would ever mention to a player or their parent.  If a kid quits....I could see potentially offering #2 if the situation warrants it....but in no way would I EVER consider #3...that's not part of your coaching duties and just really don't see anything good ever coming from it. 

Obviously these are your decisions....and maybe others will comment...but it just seems like you're giving way too much "pull" to the parents and kids by offering up so much information.

CaCO3Girl posted:

At my sons high school there are certain knowns:

1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team.  Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.

2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.

3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team.  It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on.  The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.

Create your own "KNOWNS" and you could create a winning culture.

If your coach isn’t interested in putting the best players, regardless of age, on the varsity squad - and in turn putting the best of those on the field, regardless of age - then you are playing daddyball. I have seen countless times at my son’s school where freshmen are not only ready for varsity but become key contributors as freshmen. You are either ready or not. Carrying a player because they are older but won’t help the team is senseless. That would be like saying Seth Beers should have sat his freshman year because he was a freshman, and that ain’t gonna happen. Play Rec League if who is in your team picture trumps competing at the highest level!

Lot of good points on both sides. I’m not a coach, but what “feels” right is to play the younger guys if the are equal to the upperclassmen. I can see having the upperclassmen build “their” program but the reality is they have had 1, 2 or three years to earn their position. If I have a freshman that is equal to that upperclassmen, I think I would give the nod to the younger guy simply because I will have him in my program for another 2-3 years. That seems to me how you build a winning program. I know there are a lot of variables, but that is how my brain works. I want the best 9 available on the field. I also believe in continuous, open competition. That’s what I would tell the entire team. Just because you didn’t start or play today has NO bearing on tomorrow. Show up and grind. 

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Just to clarify.....some places have 8th graders playing in the spring with HS?  That's not done here in Ohio.  What's the reasoning?  We have junior high baseball in the spring (7th and 8th grade).....just like we do in every sport.  8th graders never play with HS kids.....heck, in Ohio they aren't even allowed to attend a HS practice even if they were good enough to.

Pennsylvania allows 7th and 8th graders to play varsity in small enrollment high schools where the school building is grades 7-12. These are typically rural schools in Pennsyltucky (What is the name of the state between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh?). 

Coach_May posted:

 If you are a freshman and you are the best SS in our program you will be the SS. If you can't handle the pressure or your not quite ready you will go where you can play. If you are a Jr or Sr and you think you have graduated into a role you will learn very quickly you have thought wrong.

If a Fr or So is on varsity they are playing a significant role or they are on JV where they can play a significant role. If a Jr or Sr is not capable of playing a significant role they won't be. I understand that others will do things differently. And that's fine by me. I believe that you earn it you don't inherit it.

This paragraph is perfect.  If a HS coach can't commit to running a program that is about winning games, then he should be coaching rec ball.  There is a reason they have league championships, district championships...and state championships.  It's called competition!  Funny thing is, when I was in HS this conversation would never have taken place....and wouldn't have had to.  Kids and parents knew....if you wanted to play...you had better be good enough to play. When I was in 7th grade, my next door neighbor, and my dad's best friend was our Pony League baseball coach.  I went out for the team...and got cut.  Guess what...I lived, and my dad and the coach stayed friends.  I wasn't good enough.  Kids back then just dealt with it...and moved on.  Nowadays if that happens, the entire neighborhood would know about it on Facebook by that afternoon...my dad would hate the guy who was his best friend yesterday and I would probably have a new X-box that my parents ran out and bought me to help me cope with the grief of being cut....lol.   Congrats Coach May....keep up the good work!!

May I agree the playing time will be what you show us from now until the start of the game.  We have had 4 or 5 kids decide they would be better fit at other places because they were told that being a Jr. or Sr. wouldn't guarantee time on the field.  They looked at younger classes knew they would get beat out and decided that either they didn't want to be a part or wanted to go to another school.  The entitlement has been very bad in our program and I had a parent tell me that because Player a's older brother played college ball and now player A is a jr that he should be the starting shortstop.  That kid is still on the team but slowly distancing himself from the team and the parents have quit helping will fundraising.  In all honesty he won't ever get many reps at the varsity level and may be one of those cut when the younger kids join us.

Buckeye we can practice for an hour and a half at the end of the day during our athletic period so it really helps.  This time is divided between weight room, conditioning, and time on the field.   #3 is just my way of saying if you don't like what we are doing then your welcome to leave and at the same time saying if you "move" and its not a legit move I'm going to know about it.  #2 is just me saying I'm not going to be butt hurt because you choose to do something else and I'll help you if I can.  

younggun posted:

Lot of good points on both sides. I’m not a coach, but what “feels” right is to play the younger guys if the are equal to the upperclassmen. I can see having the upperclassmen build “their” program but the reality is they have had 1, 2 or three years to earn their position. If I have a freshman that is equal to that upperclassmen, I think I would give the nod to the younger guy simply because I will have him in my program for another 2-3 years. That seems to me how you build a winning program. I know there are a lot of variables, but that is how my brain works. I want the best 9 available on the field. I also believe in continuous, open competition. That’s what I would tell the entire team. Just because you didn’t start or play today has NO bearing on tomorrow. Show up and grind. 

You are exactly right!  And that is what SHOULD happen. Competitive people think just the way you described.  What I have seen, however, is a shift in our culture in the way many people think about these kinds of issues.  Far too many (kids and parents) view HS sports as an activity and not a competition. Furthermore, the parents believe that their child has the RIGHT to participate in whatever HS activity he/she chooses.  For this kind of parent (and there are WAY too many of them) the threat of their child not being able to be on the HS "team" of his/her choosing may result in attempts to have a coach fired, threats of lawsuits, bullying of younger (more talented players), etc.  These are all situations that I have personally witnessed during the 10 years that my 3 boys have been involved in HS sports.  Couple that with HS coaches & HS administrators that cave in to that kind of pressure and then you have the reasons why what SHOULD happen often DOESN'T.

Buckeye I agree even 10 years ago this wasn't a conversation you had to have because everyone knew the best kids played and parents supported the coach unless the coach was hurting the kids in some way.  I truly believe that parents are the ones afraid of competing and not the kids but the kids learn to be afraid because parents up until and now even in high school will move teams and even buy new houses to make sure their kid gets to play.  Being a high school teacher and coach it really scares me for the future of the world

if you have 8th graders good enough to make Varsity it is about certain you aren't winning very much, at least in our area...it is extremely rare for a HS Freshman to play Varsity especially for a full season...I can think of 2, one was on the USA 18u national roster, is committed to top 10 program but most likely will be drafted...and a mid tier D1 pitcher who matured super early. I can think of one other who was late season call up and is also on a D1 roster today.

I have no doubt missing a few but again, teams that are playing multiple sophomores seldom reach the playoffs and seldom may be a hair generous.

ADBONO I agree and I think the only thing that can save a coach is to be 100% honest from day one.  I've seen a lot of coaches tell a kid something that may or may not be true but then have to follow up on it and it cost them a season or a job because they unknowingly get caught up in the politics of parents who think they know more than a coach that sees their kid compete everyday on the field. 

Old School the freshen playing for me this year fits the first one you described and you are right we will not be competitive like we should be until we have mostly Jrs. and Srs. in 7 or 8 of the 9 positions and a few older guys in the pen as well.

Chicago643 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

At my sons high school there are certain knowns:

1. An 8th grader will not be permitted on the High School team.  Yes it's allowed by GHSA rules but when you have 50+ kids trying out you pick from 9-12th. 8th grade will wait their turn.

2. NO 9th grader will make the varsity team, it doesn't matter how good you are. If you are truly spectacular at the end of JV you will be called up for the remainder of the Varsity season, which lasts about a month longer.

3. Seniors will be preferred over juniors, juniors over sophomores, sophomores over freshman. This is high school, specially it's their high school team.  It's their picture in the year book, it's the people they have played with and against for most of their life, and for most it is the last team they will be on.  The memories of the kids should trump the wins/losses statistic.

Create your own "KNOWNS" and you could create a winning culture.

If your coach isn’t interested in putting the best players, regardless of age, on the varsity squad - and in turn putting the best of those on the field, regardless of age - then you are playing daddyball. I have seen countless times at my son’s school where freshmen are not only ready for varsity but become key contributors as freshmen. You are either ready or not. Carrying a player because they are older but won’t help the team is senseless. That would be like saying Seth Beers should have sat his freshman year because he was a freshman, and that ain’t gonna happen. Play Rec League if who is in your team picture trumps competing at the highest level!

Competition is fierce at my kids school, it is the largest division in GA and they had over 70 kids tryout last year but we don't have a 9th grade team.  MANY decent travel ball players were cut.  The HC won't play a senior guy who is a bumbling idiot, but we haven't had those because the training and commitment is intense.  We did have 2 Juniors on JV but we also had two 10th graders started on Varsity last year, but when you have the two MIF's from one of the best travel teams in the country that is what you do, they still had to wait until they were in 10th. 

HC doesn't play the seniors at all costs but he will keep a senior who isn't as good as he once was on the team with limited playing time and ask him to be a leader and a good example to the other players, rather than cut the guy who has played there for 3 years. When you have over 20 kids on a varsity roster you can have some compassion that this is THEIR senior year. There are things more important than winning....but they win their fair share.

There are a number of places where they play better baseball (California, Florida and Texas come to mind) and 70 players at tryouts is the norm in schools in the largest divisions. Freshman players can and do play varsity baseball on teams in those states and divisions, and there are a lot more elite travel teams in those states as well. It tells me that at least your son’s school gives the impression that everyone has a chance if that many kids are trying out, otherwise they wouldn’t bother. Seems like there is an opportunity being missed by not having a Freshman team, though.

 I guess if that Jr on JV is getting a roster spot on Varsity over an equally skilled soph or Jr, I would have questions about that.

Chicago643 posted:

There are a number of places where they play better baseball (California, Florida and Texas come to mind) and 70 players at tryouts is the norm in schools in the largest divisions. Freshman players can and do play varsity baseball on teams in those states and divisions, and there are a lot more elite travel teams in those states as well. It tells me that at least your son’s school gives the impression that everyone has a chance if that many kids are trying out, otherwise they wouldn’t bother. Seems like there is an opportunity being missed by not having a Freshman team, though.

 I guess if that Jr on JV is getting a roster spot on Varsity over an equally skilled soph or Jr, I would have questions about that.

I can think of a Freshman player who started on Varsity in our division, but it hasn't happened in our school, he is the #1 ranked GA kid in the class of 2020 who looks and hits like a mack truck.

The 2 Juniors on JV, one was a LHP only throwing 75, so he was too good to throw away but not near good enough to be on Varsity.  The other was a SS, who has since been offered a scholarship, but he couldn't compete with the 16u high level team MIF's, who were both committed to big time colleges in 10th grade.

Agreed, basketball and football have freshman teams but we only have one baseball field so no 9th grade team is available.

Great topic. I'm no HS coach and my 2017 son is a freshman at college, but that won't keep me from chiming in.

I have mixed feelings on kids playing up in HS. First off, a middle school kid would have to be amazing (a true no-doubt stud) to make, let alone play, let alone start on a HS V team (and that team would probably have to stink on ice too).

I'm not a fan of Fr playing V unless they play a lot. Not necessarily start, but they should be solid contributors, otherwise let them be leaders and get reps on JV.

Of course, you play the best 9 at that time. However, if two players are truly very close in what they can do NOW, and they are both on the roster, I generally support giving the upper classman a shot. Is this entitlement? Perhaps a little, but I'd call it: true push goes to the older player. Again, if an underclassman is better, he gets the opportunity.

As far as making the roster. In general, IMHO, junior year is the time to cut players, when cuts are needed, who have not developed enough to merit the spot. I'm not a fan of HS rosters with 30+ kids, and I've seen them. But if a hard-working kid sticks with the program and is a senior, AND there is room on the roster, let them stay and ride the bench. Just be honest about their role.

My son was a year behind a catcher whose uncle and brother were the starting catcher for our modest sized HS in NoVA. I was told by other parents that my son would play JV and be the back up until the other kid graduated. Half-way through my son's Soph. year he got the nod and the other player went to DH and 1B. And folded like a tent, batted like 0.100, and was livid about the demotion (I heard). He quit baseball and did not play his senior year, which did hurt the team.

It depends on how good the younger players are. The team that won our league last year had three freshmen starting (2 position players and 1 SP) -- all three are ranked in the PG Top 100 in their class, and all are committed to elite P5 programs. I think any coach who has a "rule" about not playing freshmen might change his rule when the right kid shows up.

I think they are better off playing and developing.  My son was pulled up 3-4 times as a freshman and was basically chasing foul balls.  In addition, he felt like the other guys didn't want him there...which they probably didn't. The bus rides were really awkward for him.  He ended up asking to just stay and play with his own team and turned down the invitation to go to playoffs.  This year he will go up and will be more accepted and be able to actually play.  If they can't hit off varsity and will have a dh, you are taking away their opportunity to grow as hitters, which will hurt you later.

We have a large school (4,000+) and Freshmen rarely make Varsity (a couple of exceptions in the past decade).  A few sophomores make Varsity - my son was one of them last year.  He and another played regularly.  But the other not so much, which caused a bit of consternation.  But then again, they saw higher level competition and played with travel team over the summer.  I'm with HShuler.  Put your best team out there regardless of age.  Younger kids will rise to the occasion.  Older ones will support the younger ones if they want to win.  Ultimately, Coach has to make the call on what's best for winning and his program.  All of the rest of us -- especially parents -- need to get in line and live with it. 

Best players play regardless of age. If a 14 year old is better than an upperclassman, then he starts.

however if there is no real difference between the 2. Play the older kid and work the younger one in to games to prepare him for the varsity competition.

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Coach_TV posted:

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

These kids are coming from travel teams who MAYBE have 15 players to a High School team of 20 or more players.  I can see having the young buck sitting on the bench going very wrong.  While I can agree it's important for the kids to understand that as they get older they will get less and less playing time, with more and more kids on the team, I do not think it's going to go well showing that fact to a 9th grader.

MANY of the JV players last year were in culture shock when they didn't play much.  And I don't think that is indicative of a bad attitude I think it truly was culture shock.  If I was the parent of a talented 9th grader being considered to sit on the bench at Varsity or play half of the JV games I would hope my kid was on JV. While high school baseball does need to have a team first mentality I wouldn't blame a kid for seeking out a home school team where he played in most of the games if all the HC had planned for him was riding the pine at the Varsity level.  It would be very difficult for a 14 year old to accept he's on a team but not playing, especially if he's a stud.

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

Just to clarify, there were around 25 Freshman trying out, the other 45 were 10-12, and many of the 10th graders trying out weren't on the team the previous year.

JV was 10 freshman, 7 Sophomores, 2 Juniors.

V was 3 Sophomores, 10 Juniors, 11 Seniors. 

Of those 11 seniors 8 went on to play in college, six in baseball and two in football. 

+1 Shuler. 

In my experience i've seen it work a few ways. Son's HS typically went with older guys (as CaCo's example) suggested.  My son was one of 3 "hybrid" players who as freshman made varsity but could pay down to JV or move up to Varsity. Funny thing is, the other two pretty much played varsity all season and he played down most of his frosh year, primarily pitching and then got called up to play varsity when the JV season ended. Of the others, one of them started varsity as a catcher all 4 years and was taken in the 11th spot MLB draft when he graduated and the other was a pitcher who was redshirted as a frosh at power 5 and quit his soph year and is no longer playing college ball. 

As a SS, an older kid played and pretty much beat out my kid. He couldn't hit or bunt. Played decent defense. My son was smaller and was probably same level of hitting..although i think he could have done better overall and certainly better at moving runners etc /bunting. Defensively, my son would make all the hard plays and make them look easy but the 4 hopper to short would get him tied up. I think leaving him down ultimately helped him grow as a pitcher but back then i wanted him to be the SS on varsity and did not get my way. 

As a pitcher, he dominated JV and was the #1. I think he had an ERA under 1...maybe a .079. I know these don't matter...back then we loved that s^&*. One thing i wondered about was if he could have had that year of pitching vs varsity level HS guys...would it have helped him be better? I think his PC would have been lower on varsity though as he would have been a bullpen guy. 

It all worked out in the end. I say play the best players, but coaches take a S$%*pile of criticism anyway and i'm not sure if you ever win that argument with the older kid/parent unless you win a lot and then again they won't even be happy if they weren't in that equation. I worked the concession grill, ended up announcing the home games for his junior and senior year and my wife was a teacher/coach at the HS (now an asst principal) and son played travel for the assist HS coach travel team all 4 years in HS so i bet you there were still folks who thought my son got preferential treatment due to that connection instead of his performance. You can't can't win.

One thing I've noticed through a lot of the post is Varsity coach and jr high and all different coaches.  We have 5 coaches total for 7-12 one of which is volunteer.  I as the head coach do head coaching stuff with varsity but I'm at every other game all the way down to help.  Other coaches are considered head coaches for J.V. and Middle school but they are younger guys in most cases that are also with me at the varsity level and ask me how I would like things done.  Just an observation is all.  We also have about 900 in our school and are in the second largest class in the state.

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Not 4000+, but more like 3,800 at ours.  Grades 9-12 all in one building.  Not a campus.  This was the preference of the community a few years back when we had a choice on building out a new campus or spending money remodeling the current school.  The community choose the remodel.  Our HS is considered one of the tops in the country academic wise but it really has the feel of a smaller school with a family atmosphere.  The community did not want to loose that. 

Many of the other large schools in our area have multiple buildings.  Normally frosh in one building and 10-12 in another.  There are a couple of larger schools that have a small college type of campus as well.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

When my older son was a frosh there were 115 kids trying out for Frosh baseball.  Two teams of 16 players on each team.  

By the time my younger one (4 years younger) got there the numbers had dwindled down to about 75.  LAX and shrinking population played a part.

fhobbs013 posted:

One thing I've noticed through a lot of the post is Varsity coach and jr high and all different coaches.  We have 5 coaches total for 7-12 one of which is volunteer.  I as the head coach do head coaching stuff with varsity but I'm at every other game all the way down to help.  Other coaches are considered head coaches for J.V. and Middle school but they are younger guys in most cases that are also with me at the varsity level and ask me how I would like things done.  Just an observation is all.  We also have about 900 in our school and are in the second largest class in the state.

...and I assume most schools are like this.  Our HC graduated from our school, lives in town, but teaches in another District.  He's early 30's, no kids.  Has absolutely no connection to the younger kids, even though our youth baseball program is really good and has a lot of good baseball guys that help run it.  Even when my son and the grade above him were younger and the coach knew they were coming up thru youth/Jr Hi, he never came to a game.  His dad (who had a state title coaching at another school) was heavily involved...knew the kids, came to games, etc.  HS...not once.  He has lost so many good athletes/players over the years because of people's stance that he "just doesn't care".  He isn't a bad coach...and actually does very well in a good league considering that if the best baseball kids would have kept playing his starting lineup would likely be 3-4 kids different every year. 

joes87 posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

When my older son was a frosh there were 115 kids trying out for Frosh baseball.  Two teams of 16 players on each team.  

By the time my younger one (4 years younger) got there the numbers had dwindled down to about 75.  LAX and shrinking population played a part.

Wow, those kind of numbers are amazing from a small town NW Ohio perspective lol.  We don't have 300 boys in the entire HS.  Last year's freshman class had 15 kids come out for baseball....that's by far the largest we've had....at least in the last 15+ years.  Typically it's 7-8.   Son's class had 5.  Of those 5....on a given day depending on who was pitching those 5 were our:

Starting SS,  #1 pitcher, sometime catcher

Starting Catcher, #2 pitcher

Starting CF,  #4 pitcher

Starting 2B

Backup Catcher, DH, #3 pitcher, sometime RF

Gotta have guys who can play multiple positions when you're in a small school lol

Coach_TV posted:

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

Because the younger play can develop more by playing than by sitting on the bench. That's the reason.

Anyway, there is intense competition for playing time, with or without the younger backup on the bench -- for example, this year the varsity will have (rough guess given that some are sophomores) between 9 and 12 players who will end up going D1 and a whole bunch of the other kids will play D3  (right now, 5 current D1 commits, and 4 seniors going D3). Plus, the program is run as a program. What I mean by that, is the coaching style and expectations of the JV coach are closely aligned with the varsity coach. A lot of times the teams will practice together. So it's not like being banished to Siberia.

2019Dad posted:

Coach_TV posted:

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

Because the younger play can develop more by playing than by sitting on the bench. That's the reason.

...

Regarding the bolded... This is a prevalent thought.  But, this is a two-edged sword and it is another situation where each individual brings a different set of circumstances.

If a player hasn't had a lot of competitive game experience or his skill set plays out well in practice but lacks in games, then yes, he should be developing by playing more games at the lower level.  However, if a player plays a lot of competitive travel, will likely face JV opponents that are weaker than he is accustomed and the coaching is deeper and better at V (all of which are often the case), then that player may very well be better off getting daily reps and instruction from those V coaches, playing inter-squad and practicing among those better V players.  Overall, he will develop more there.  He is getting his competitive game action in with travel (and don't forget, many travel teams lean toward little practice, lot's of games).  This can be a difficult situation for the player and parent to accept because this is often the first time the player has not been a key starter on the field.  But, in the big picture, can be better for him in many ways.

Most players on the V/JV bubble fall somewhere between these two scenarios and there are dozens of other factors that come into play.  If that second player is truly likely to see zero PT, that certainly tips the scales.  If he is your best depth option at some position/s and will likely at least get spot action, the program and team are better having him on V.

How will the team and program flourish most?  How will the individual flourish most?  It is a balance.

we have about 2200 kids 9-12, grad classes of just under 600 is standard. We have 70 plus kids for baseball tryouts every year since my boys have been involved in the program. Coach typically keeps 20 on Varsity 20 on JV and 15 freshman.

This year we have 3 pitchers D1 committed and 4 others that will pitching D3 or D2...and we aren't particularly special, that is kind of my reference point a ways back when I said very few if any freshman play varsity.

old_school posted:

we have about 2200 kids 9-12, grad classes of just under 600 is standard. We have 70 plus kids for baseball tryouts every year since my boys have been involved in the program. Coach typically keeps 20 on Varsity 20 on JV and 15 freshman.

This year we have 3 pitchers D1 committed and 4 others that will pitching D3 or D2...and we aren't particularly special, that is kind of my reference point a ways back when I said very few if any freshman play varsity.

Same.  Last year on JV my son faced a kid throwing 87, there was no room for him on Varsity.  Throwing 80 puts you on the bubble of JV/V in most schools in our division, usually landing on JV.  Whereas in many schools across the US 80mph is the stud varsity pitcher.  We have at least 6 kids throwing over 85, and 3 of those are throwing 90+ on V this year, and that is not uncommon.

Personally I think too much is made out of what game they go to. Practice is where kids truly develop. I understand the need for game reps, for sure, but that's not always my main concern. We tell the "tweener" kids they're going to play where we can get them 4 ABs a game (based on talent of course, which these kids have since they're the "tweeners"). If that's a varsity game, so be it. If it's JV, same story. We have some weaker teams in our district, so that impacts our decisions from week to week as well.

But all of our "good JV kids" practice with Varsity every day. They rep everything just like the varsity kids, defense baserunning, signs, dirt ball reads, everything. Hell, we only hit 18 kids in BP (not always, but our most often used BP format), and we have some of those JV kids hitting in groups and some seniors not hitting. Talent decides reps in practice, too.

Later in the year I'm more inclined to bring them to Varsity games even if I'm not sure they'll cross the lines, just to get used to the atmosphere and routine. They'll likely be with us for the playoffs so I want it to feel as normal as possible at that time.

fhobbs013 posted:

 

I also don't want to have to deal with all the drama from parents but I know thats coming just a matter of time.  To me if the younger kid is playing there shouldn't be any doubt he's better.  If we just win every game then no parents will complain right lol.   (I can dream right)

Not that you need advice, but if this is a concern for you, score as much as you can in practice. We normally score BP and defensive reps, and chart and score bullpens for our pitchers. It's obviously handy in decision making, but it is invaluable in parent meetings.

Parents will want to talk batting averages (which are minimally useful in a high school season) and summer ball stats, etc. When you can hand them a piece of paper showing their kids has the worst percentage in defensive reps, or is the 15th of 16 hitters in BP, they tend to have to find a new excuse other than "you're an idiot."

It helps kids in practice, too, especially those JV kids with you, in that they know that everything is being seen by the coaches. And competition in practice is king.

CaCO3Girl posted:

old_school posted:

we have about 2200 kids 9-12, grad classes of just under 600 is standard. We have 70 plus kids for baseball tryouts every year since my boys have been involved in the program. Coach typically keeps 20 on Varsity 20 on JV and 15 freshman.

This year we have 3 pitchers D1 committed and 4 others that will pitching D3 or D2...and we aren't particularly special, that is kind of my reference point a ways back when I said very few if any freshman play varsity.

Same.  Last year on JV my son faced a kid throwing 87, there was no room for him on Varsity.  Throwing 80 puts you on the bubble of JV/V in most schools in our division, usually landing on JV.  Whereas in many schools across the US 80mph is the stud varsity pitcher.  We have at least 6 kids throwing over 85, and 3 of those are throwing 90+ on V this year, and that is not uncommon.

We have around 2600 and 3 teams of around 22 each.  We had a sophomore last year who threw around 89 and didn't move up to varsity until the 3rd or 4th game.  My son threw 84-86 last year and was on freshman team.  It is competitive.  That said, he was happy on freshman team, played a lot, had fun. No complaints.  

ironhorse posted:

fhobbs013 posted:

 

I also don't want to have to deal with all the drama from parents but I know thats coming just a matter of time.  To me if the younger kid is playing there shouldn't be any doubt he's better.  If we just win every game then no parents will complain right lol.   (I can dream right)

Not that you need advice, but if this is a concern for you, score as much as you can in practice. We normally score BP and defensive reps, and chart and score bullpens for our pitchers. It's obviously handy in decision making, but it is invaluable in parent meetings.

Parents will want to talk batting averages (which are minimally useful in a high school season) and summer ball stats, etc. When you can hand them a piece of paper showing their kids has the worst percentage in defensive reps, or is the 15th of 16 hitters in BP, they tend to have to find a new excuse other than "you're an idiot."

It helps kids in practice, too, especially those JV kids with you, in that they know that everything is being seen by the coaches. And competition in practice is king.

Iron horse that is one thing we are going to do a lot more of than has ever been done in our program.  I have added an extra manager/stat guy to help with it.  He loves baseball is very smart but if he had to catch a ball we would take a lot of trips to the E.R.  He wanted to be a part of the program and I think he may help more than some of the guys that are starters by giving us concrete data we can use.

Social media has made this issue an even bigger mine field.  Freshman in the competitive travel ball circuit love to tweet things like "My new VARSITY uniform is sick!"  They don't care if they won't play on V, or if reps on JV will help in the long run, they just want to be recognized as making varsity.  Maybe they think it will help jumpstart their college recruiting too.  Their parents get in on the act too, posting all that stuff on Facebook.

Smitty28 posted:

Social media has made this issue an even bigger mine field.  Freshman in the competitive travel ball circuit love to tweet things like "My new VARSITY uniform is sick!"  They don't care if they won't play on V, or if reps on JV will help in the long run, they just want to be recognized as making varsity.  Maybe they think it will help jumpstart their college recruiting too.  Their parents get in on the act too, posting all that stuff on Facebook.

#blessed 

Seems like there are many opinions on this topic but I think its all relative to the school, the team, the coach and the player(s) in question. Last year, in his first season, our school's new head coach  decided to start a freshman on varsity for the first time in school history. His theory was if he was going to make varsity, he was going to play. This did not sit well with anyone in or outside of the program. This had nothing to do with the kid's talent (IMO, maybe not worthy of immediate play at the varsity level, but definitely should have moved up sometime later in the season), but everything to do with the player's maturity and game knowledge.

To the freshman player's credit, he played very well. Unfortunately his immaturity did kick in and his arrogance and "me first attitude" that all of knew would be his Achilles heel, took over.  It seems the freshman felt his on-field performance allowed him the luxury of having a "voice" in the dugout/locker room. The kind of role that traditionally (and rightly so) is taken on by upperclassmen. My son alluded to me that "some chairs and fists were thrown on several occasions".  Names of plaintiffs and defendants were withheld.  Team chemistry was non-existent for 2/3rd of the season and a team returning 7 seniors (5 of which were headed to D1 schools) started 2-10, finished strong but did not make the playoffs for the first time in 10 years.

So, no sweat off that freshman's back because he has three more years to return to the playoffs, right?  With five NLI signed Division 1 senior players (two pitchers) and three or four juniors and sophomores headed in that direction hoping to make a strong run in states, how important do you think it is to play an untested freshman immediately when there is so much time to work with? You have a group of guys with at least one season playing with one another, who know each other, have built somewhat of a trust and bond with one another, and rather than slowly introduce a new element to that system, you cause an explosion. Was important enough to talk to your seniors about it? New coach vs four yr players at well respected private school.

We had an anomaly last year in our league last year (considered one the top 2 in CA) where we had 7 freshman starters on the seven teams in our league. One team started 3, another two, one team had one and our team started one.  They all had great seasons in games during outside of league play. Keep in mind, coaches notoriously keep the pressure off because games are meaningless counting towards playoffs. Plus, they are not always playing powerhouse teams either. As soon as inter-league games started (keep in mind every team except two in this league had 3-5 Div 1 commits), freshman player batting averages dropped by 43%. In the field, error percentage rose by 56%.  The only shining spot was a freshman pitcher (already committed to power 5 school) was spectacular. He led the league with 10 wins and a 1.21 era. Came with a price though. He threw over 1000 pitches. Remember, still a freshman.

So, when I say it all depends on the situation you really have to put things in perspective. Is it worth it if there are options for the player? Are you taking the player away from his peer group at a time when he may need that time for mental growth? Is he ready for the grind? Do the coaches have the time it takes to groom/assist/even protect the freshman player? Is he ready to step up when it really means something?  It just depends...

cabbagedad posted:

2019Dad posted:

Coach_TV posted:

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

Because the younger play can develop more by playing than by sitting on the bench. That's the reason.

...

Regarding the bolded... This is a prevalent thought.  But, this is a two-edged sword and it is another situation where each individual brings a different set of circumstances.

If a player hasn't had a lot of competitive game experience or his skill set plays out well in practice but lacks in games, then yes, he should be developing by playing more games at the lower level.  However, if a player plays a lot of competitive travel, will likely face JV opponents that are weaker than he is accustomed and the coaching is deeper and better at V (all of which are often the case), then that player may very well be better off getting daily reps and instruction from those V coaches, playing inter-squad and practicing among those better V players.  Overall, he will develop more there.  He is getting his competitive game action in with travel (and don't forget, many travel teams lean toward little practice, lot's of games).  This can be a difficult situation for the player and parent to accept because this is often the first time the player has not been a key starter on the field.  But, in the big picture, can be better for him in many ways.

Most players on the V/JV bubble fall somewhere between these two scenarios and there are dozens of other factors that come into play.  If that second player is truly likely to see zero PT, that certainly tips the scales.  If he is your best depth option at some position/s and will likely at least get spot action, the program and team are better having him on V.

How will the team and program flourish most?  How will the individual flourish most?  It is a balance.

More than one way to skin a cat, I suppose. But for game reps, there is no travel during HS season (in CA), so our coaches shy away from having a talented kid not play in games. Plus, JV is surprisingly competitive at the CIF-SS Division 1 level. 

 

...

More than one way to skin a cat, I suppose. But for game reps, there is no travel during HS season (in CA), so our coaches shy away from having a talented kid not play in games. Plus, JV is surprisingly competitive at the CIF-SS Division 1 level. 

Yeah, 2019, we are in CIF-SS also but not D1...  JV level is not as consistently competitive.  I was referring to the fact that those players play travel games most of the year outside of the HS season so plenty of games are played then.

2019CubDad.....I get the issues you're describing, and some of the blame obviously goes to the kid...especially if he had the attitude issues as bad as you make it sound....BUT....where was the coach?  Chairs and fists in the locker room? C'mon, the coach has to shut that down IMMEDIATELY!!  If it happens once, fine....if it continues, it's on him.  Either he gets the upperclassmen on board if he feels they are to blame....if they won't, then it's on them.  If he feels it's the freshman, make a change...one way or the other he needs to handle it.   If he can't, then he has no business coaching HS kids. A team with that kind of talent going 2-10 is crazy.    I obviously don't know the guy....but I guess I would wonder if was  a "coach" or was he a "guy in a uniform" that got handed a bunch of top level travel kids every year and just had to throw them on the field to win games?

Agreed. I haven't had 5 D1 guys in the last 5 years combined? 2-10 sounds hard to do with that kind of talent. Not saying they win state, but no way their district/conference is that good.

Every kid coming into a HS program is not in the same situation. Every HS program is different. For some kids JV baseball is a huge step down in the level of competition they are used to. For others it's about right. You can hurt a kid by putting him in a situation he is not ready for and you can hurt a kid by not putting him in a situation he is ready for. The most important thing for me for a kid coming into a HS program is put a game plan in place for them. Where are they at? Where do they want to go? How can we get there? This is where you are. This is where you can go. Are you willing to do what it takes to get there?

For the player that would be taking a big step down in the level of competition by playing JV baseball competition being the man on JV vs having a role that is less than they are used to at the Varsity level. So many scenarios I don't believe you can just say "We do it like this." For me I want to challenge the young talented players who have played high competitive baseball. Though they are as or more skilled than older players the more mature savvy less talented player will "teach" them a lot. In many ways.

I don't believe players should be brought up to sit the bench. I believe they should have a significant role if you bring them up. I also don't believe in leaving a kid on JV so he can be the man when he can help your team win games at the Varsity level. The hope is that your JR's and Sr's are so talented that there is no way a Fr or So could unseat them. Of course you want the upper class guys to be the guys. But when that is not the case it's just not the case.

As a parent do you want your kid to play every inning, hit 3rd in the order and be the man on JV vs Play every other game, hit 8th in the order and scrap to stay on varsity? Can you see the bigger picture? Can your son see the bigger picture? Is there value in not seeing your name on the line up care every game? Is there value in having to fight to get in the line up? Is there value in learning that even though your as talented or more talented the bigger, stronger, faster more mature player can own you?

It's a call a coach has to make based on many scenarios and every kid's make up is different. For some I believe it's the right call. For others I believe it's not. If the best interest of the player's overall development and the programs best interest are one in the same it's really not that hard to do. And I believe what is best for that development of your players will ultimately be what is best for your program. Well I believe it should be.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

My son's school has 2,800 kids in HS plus 1,429 kids in grades 7 ad 8 which are in the same building. That's 4,237 at one school! There are numerous other schools within a 10-15 mile radius with similar numbers. It's crazy how dense the concentration of families and kids is in this area. That makes the competition for everything - academic, athletics, and extracurricular -- very strong. 

ironhorse posted:

Agreed. I haven't had 5 D1 guys in the last 5 years combined? 2-10 sounds hard to do with that kind of talent. Not saying they win state, but no way their district/conference is that good.

Sent you a PM

LBmom2021 posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

My son's school has 2,800 kids in HS plus 1,429 kids in grades 7 ad 8 which are in the same building. That's 4,237 at one school! There are numerous other schools within a 10-15 mile radius with similar numbers. It's crazy how dense the concentration of families and kids is in this area. That makes the competition for everything - academic, athletics, and extracurricular -- very strong. 

 

My sons HS has over 5000 students and there are close to 1300 in his 2018 class. And we still can't find a good catcher ! 

Son's HS team had 5 d1s, all but 1 power 5. 2 were drafted and passed on college. We had at least 3 D2 guys and a few others who went NAIA and we still came up short twice in state playoffs in semis for championships. 

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Allen High School 10-12th only https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_High_School_(Texas)

top ten biggest high schools in texas  http://yestotexas.com/20-bigge...gh-schools-in-texas/

we football alot

Just reading the comments . . . apparently, there are some high schools out there that have high school baseball players -- like, ones who actually get playing time -- who don't play travel baseball. Weird, huh?

The numbers you guys are talking about with regard to D1's are crazy,  3-5 on a team at the same time is hard to comprehend lol.   As far as I remember our HS has had 5 D1's total going back to the 1988 graduating class (I don't think any before that).   4 stayed here in Ohio and 1 who went SEC for a year then JUCO, then to a very good mid-major down South. 

I ran a 15U/16U team for two years....of the 12-14 regulars on that team.  5 are D1 pitchers, including one who originally went JUCO but will be back to D1 next year.   3 other pitchers that went D2 (1 has since quit baseball),  a D1 caliber catcher (went to Marines) and 2 other who got some D1 looks (3B and 1B) that went JUCO and have since given up baseball.  All were 2015's.  I can't imagine what it would be like to have had all those kids all on the same HS team but that's the type of talent some of you guys are talking about at your schools.  That would make for some fun baseball.

D1catcher posted:

Best players play regardless of age. If a 14 year old is better than an upperclassman, then he starts.

however if there is no real difference between the 2. Play the older kid and work the younger one in to games to prepare him for the varsity competition.

Couldn't agree more.  As a freshman son bounced between JV and Varsity during the summer/fall.  He got very little playing time (last inning maybe, PH, PR) but on JV he did well.  I was hoping coach wouldn't keep him on Varsity roster for the year, and he didn't.  Mentally at that age I can only imagine how difficult it would be to just sit and watch.  Though never confirmed, I was told HC had a policy, if Freshman or Sophomore made varsity they were a starter, excluding pitchers.  Son played Varsity as Soph and played every inning.

Just to give you an idea of the competition in our HS league (some of you SoCal guys will appreciate this), we play in the same high school league that Hunter Greene pitched in last season and we often played against Royce Lewis' school the next county south, usually seeing them in the playoffs at some point. Hunter Greene's former high school returns 2 UCLA commits (1 jr, 1 soph), 2 USC commits (2 sophs) and 1 TCU commit (soph) to their starting lineup this season. Another school in the league, has 2 Vandy commits (1 jr, 1 soph) 1 Stanford (soph), 1 LMU (Sr), 1 UCLA (Sr.) and several lower D1s. A third school has 1 Stanford (soph) 1 USF (Sr.) 1 Cal (Sr.). Our school has 1 UCLA (soph), 1 Georgia Tech (soph), 1 Long Beach (jr), 1 UCSB (jr), two high academic D3s (Rhodes and Claremont) and several Juniors waiting on Ivy Leagues to offer this summer (Columbia and Harvard). The fifth team has 3 San Diego State commits (all jr.s) 1 Cal St. Northridge (Sr.) and 1 UCLA (Sr.). The bottom two schools are rebuilding but did win a few games last year and have solid freshman coming in for them.

Funny thing is most if these kids play together in the summer on the same Travel team or scout teams. All families have known each other forever and going to every high school game is really enjoyable. And, oh yeah, the baseball is outstanding. Last year, when Hunter pitched (hit 102 mph and 103 mph when he pitched against us), there were more MLB scouts then parents in the stands. The year before, when Hunter was pitching to Blake Rutherford (drafted by the Yankees in Rd 1 in 2016, now with the White Sox), it was like going to a movie premier.

So when I say that playing a freshman is all relative, the talent that you are surrounded by and playing against certainly can be a factor.   And yes, in this league, Hunter Greene did start his freshman year on JV.

Our current Varsity baseball team has 6 D1, several D2 commits.  Three are juniors committed to University of Texas, TCU and LSU.  That doesn't even come close to what comes out of our HS for football.  You saw one of our former QBs getting the Heisman last week.  It is crazy that there is so much talent in one area.

baseballhs posted:

Our current Varsity baseball team has 6 D1, several D2 commits.  Three are juniors committed to University of Texas, TCU and LSU.  That doesn't even come close to what comes out of our HS for football.  You saw one of our former QBs getting the Heisman last week.  It is crazy that there is so much talent in one area.

Should be a good 3rd round playoff matchup with you and Churchill from SA again...

Last spring the baseball teams of the Trinity League in Orange County CA -- not my son's league, so I have no horse in this race -- had 50 D1 commits (not all seniors, that was across all four years) amongst the 6 teams in the league. 50!!! 

As far as football goes, it's even crazier. Maxpreps has the six Trinity League teams currently ranked nationally at #1, #3, #47, #85, #95, and #128. USA Today has the six teams currently ranked nationally at #1, #4, #67, #92, #155, and #162. 

Did I mention that recruiting is against CIF rules?  

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

baseballhs posted:

Our current Varsity baseball team has 6 D1, several D2 commits.  Three are juniors committed to University of Texas, TCU and LSU.  That doesn't even come close to what comes out of our HS for football.  You saw one of our former QBs getting the Heisman last week.  It is crazy that there is so much talent in one area.

For the record I'm not debating that there can be 5 D1 commits on a team. My Senior year we had 9 D1 guys, 13 overall, but we also won state in Texas. Having 5 and going 2 and 10 seems like a nightmare season.

2019Dad posted:

Last spring the baseball teams of the Trinity League in Orange County CA -- not my son's league, so I have no horse in this race -- had 50 D1 commits (not all seniors, that was across all four years) amongst the 6 teams in the league. 50!!! 

As far as football goes, it's even crazier. Maxpreps has the six Trinity League teams currently ranked nationally at #1, #3, #47, #85, #95, and #128. USA Today has the six teams currently ranked nationally at #1, #4, #67, #92, #155, and #162. 

Did I mention that recruiting is against CIF rules?  

We are the only team in the Mission League that does not allow "undue influence" in their program (the term "recruiting" is nowhere found in CIF by laws). Our football program which was dominant in the 70's and 80's is just average now as is basketball. 50% of our students are "legacy" (have a parent or relative who attended the school). However, both sports are still treated as if they are "special". For instance, at our school, baseball has not had new uniforms in five years. JV is wheres uniforms from the early 2000's and I can only guess what frosh wear. (parents have said the uni's stand up on their own). Whereas football and basketball have been featured as Nike "Jumpman", a.k.a. Jordan, uniform schools in Sports Illustrated and ESPN. Go figure.

Baseball is now the most undue influenced sport in the Mission League because it is so under the radar. I won't go any further with how this forbidden process works (just look at the schools with the most power 5's in our league and you will understand who the culprits are) but it does occur. The funny thing is watching the coaches for these two schools whine/complain/ bitch somethings as trivial as a random leaf lying upside down on a playing surface. Happy to say the young men do represent those schools well though!

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

Max Preps info is not always accurate. Most people know that.  Plano's record was not 12-18, for example.  West and Plano are competitive.  Online information doesn't tell the whole story.  But apparently you missed that the first time around. 

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

Max Preps info is not always accurate. Most people know that.  Plano's record was not 12-18, for example.  West and Plano are competitive.  Online information doesn't tell the whole story.  But apparently you missed that the first time around. 

Ahh, sorry about that. The original comment was based on -- wow, 5000 kids, they must be awesome, lemme see what their record is . . . wow, not so good.

You're right, according to their website, they were 14-16 (http://planowildcatsbaseball.c...017-varsity-schedule). Not 12-18.

You can say whatever you want.  I have forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know. 

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

Max Preps info is not always accurate. Most people know that.  Plano's record was not 12-18, for example.  West and Plano are competitive.  Online information doesn't tell the whole story.  But apparently you missed that the first time around. 

Ahh, sorry about that. The original comment was based on -- wow, 5000 kids, they must be awesome, lemme see what their record is . . . wow, not so good.

You're right, according to their website, they were 14-16 (http://planowildcatsbaseball.c...017-varsity-schedule). Not 12-18.

You can say whatever you want.  I have forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know. 

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

Max Preps info is not always accurate. Most people know that.  Plano's record was not 12-18, for example.  West and Plano are competitive.  Online information doesn't tell the whole story.  But apparently you missed that the first time around. 

Ahh, sorry about that. The original comment was based on -- wow, 5000 kids, they must be awesome, lemme see what their record is . . . wow, not so good.

You're right, according to their website, they were 14-16 (http://planowildcatsbaseball.c...017-varsity-schedule). Not 12-18.

You can say whatever you want.  I have forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know. 

Get a clue 

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

I️ can show you hundreds of teams in warm weather states of the same size that have comparable records. Guess what, someone has to win and lose in league games. That is an ignorant statement.

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

Max Preps info is not always accurate. Most people know that.  Plano's record was not 12-18, for example.  West and Plano are competitive.  Online information doesn't tell the whole story.  But apparently you missed that the first time around. 

Ahh, sorry about that. The original comment was based on -- wow, 5000 kids, they must be awesome, lemme see what their record is . . . wow, not so good.

You're right, according to their website, they were 14-16 (http://planowildcatsbaseball.c...017-varsity-schedule). Not 12-18.

Dude, take your meds...your insecurities are showing.

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

Max Preps info is not always accurate. Most people know that.  Plano's record was not 12-18, for example.  West and Plano are competitive.  Online information doesn't tell the whole story.  But apparently you missed that the first time around. 

Ahh, sorry about that. The original comment was based on -- wow, 5000 kids, they must be awesome, lemme see what their record is . . . wow, not so good.

You're right, according to their website, they were 14-16 (http://planowildcatsbaseball.c...017-varsity-schedule). Not 12-18.

You can say whatever you want.  I have forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know. 

Now you just proved it

Chicago643 posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

I️ can show you hundreds of teams in warm weather states of the same size that have comparable records. Guess what, someone has to win and lose in league games. That is an ignorant statement.

Really? There are hundreds of high schools with over 5,000 students enrolled? 

Look, I made a throwaway comment about how I would think a school with 5,000 or 6,000 kids would be competitive -- dominant, even -- in baseball. Sheer numbers would tend to lead in that direction.

Obviously I didn't know that Adbono's kids went to one of those high schools. And I wasn't intending to insult him or anyone else at those schools. It was just surprising. That's all. 

This part of the thread went sideways, and I apologize if my posts were the cause of that. I will delete the references to the specific school.

2019Dad posted:

Look, I made a throwaway comment about how I would think a school with 5,000 or 6,000 kids would be competitive -- dominant, even -- in baseball. Sheer numbers would tend to lead in that direction.

Obviously I didn't know that Adbono's kids went to one of those high schools. And I wasn't intending to insult him or anyone else at those schools. It was just surprising. That's all. 

This part of the thread went sideways, and I apologize if my posts were the cause of that. I will delete the references to the specific school.

You still came off like a douche bag

2019Dad posted:

Chicago643 posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

I️ can show you hundreds of teams in warm weather states of the same size that have comparable records. Guess what, someone has to win and lose in league games. That is an ignorant statement.

Really? There are hundreds of high schools with over 5,000 students enrolled? 

Let me guess: your kid play so in a league or area where some big name guys have come out recently, but your kid isn’t a big name guy. But saying you play against or around them somehow gives you credentials to spout off. My point was there are lots of large high schools you would expect to compete who also have down years. Hell, in your own back yard you would think USC would be a perennial powerhouse in baseball but they are a perennial cellar dweller. How do you explain that? You come off like an entitled jerk.

2019Dad posted:

Look, I made a throwaway comment about how I would think a school with 5,000 or 6,000 kids would be competitive -- dominant, even -- in baseball. Sheer numbers would tend to lead in that direction.

 

I think all the schools in their division are that size. So they are competing with like-sized and talented programs. I don’t think there is a league out there where everyone goes undefeated. 

Chicago643 posted:

2019Dad posted:

Chicago643 posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

I️ can show you hundreds of teams in warm weather states of the same size that have comparable records. Guess what, someone has to win and lose in league games. That is an ignorant statement.

Really? There are hundreds of high schools with over 5,000 students enrolled? 

Let me guess: your kid play so in a league or area where some big name guys have come out recently, but your kid isn’t a big name guy. But saying you play against or around them somehow gives you credentials to spout off. My point was there are lots of large high schools you would expect to compete who also have down years. Hell, in your own back yard you would think USC would be a perennial powerhouse in baseball but they are a perennial cellar dweller. How do you explain that? You come off like an entitled jerk.

Wow, you really don't know who his kid is,

One of the interesting things on this site is that WE have no idea if we are talking to a kid/parent that is slated for a draft or a kid/parent involved in rec ball. Oh well, probably for the best but I will clear this part up, his kids got nothing to prove.

2019Dad did make an off the cuff comment, most would come to the same conclusion given the data.  The data was apparently wrong, and some people on here had kids be a part of the data.  He apologized and clearly stated he wasn't trying to insult anyone here he was making an observation.   It was others who blew it up and made it a personal attack.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Chicago643 posted:

2019Dad posted:

Chicago643 posted:

2019Dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

I said "theyhave uncompetitive baseball teams." That's current tense. Maybe they were good in 2008 or whatever.

All I did was look up their records last year:

• Plano East, 8-22 record, ranked as the 5,861st best HS team in the U.S. by Maxpreps
• Plano West, 13-16-1, ranked as the 2,885th best HS team in the U.S.
• Plano, 12-18, ranked as the 2,995th best HS team in the U.S.

In my book, that's uncompetitive. Adding in the fact that they have 2,500 or more boys to choose from -- and that they are in a warm-weather state -- I think it's remarkable that they aren't more competitive. Currently. And always, for that matter.

I️ can show you hundreds of teams in warm weather states of the same size that have comparable records. Guess what, someone has to win and lose in league games. That is an ignorant statement.

Really? There are hundreds of high schools with over 5,000 students enrolled? 

Let me guess: your kid play so in a league or area where some big name guys have come out recently, but your kid isn’t a big name guy. But saying you play against or around them somehow gives you credentials to spout off. My point was there are lots of large high schools you would expect to compete who also have down years. Hell, in your own back yard you would think USC would be a perennial powerhouse in baseball but they are a perennial cellar dweller. How do you explain that? You come off like an entitled jerk.

Wow, you really don't know who his kid is,

One of the interesting things on this site is that WE have no idea if we are talking to a kid/parent that is slated for a draft or a kid/parent involved in rec ball. Oh well, probably for the best but I will clear this part up, his kids got nothing to prove.

2019Dad did make an off the cuff comment, most would come to the same conclusion given the data.  The data was apparently wrong, and some people on here had kids be a part of the data.  He apologized and clearly stated he wasn't trying to insult anyone here he was making an observation.   It was others who blew it up and made it a personal attack.

I could tell you my kid is anyone, you would never know for sure. Fact of the matter is, he came out from like a major league jerk.

Please... we’re mostly adults here. Don’t drag kids, yours or anyone else’s, into the conversation.  Stand on your own two feet if you have something to say.  Never hide behind your son/daughter.

This is a general statement, not directed at anyone in particular  

You always play the best kids available if there is no doubt about who is best. If an upperclassman and a lowerclassman are evaluated to be the same skill level you start out playing the upperclassman because you want them both to play. You start out playing the upperclassman on V and the lowerclassman has eligibility to play on a lower level so they start out lower. This doesn't really cause an disruption in your team chemistry and gives a nod to a kid who has put more time grinding day in and day out in the program. I would hold a meeting telling players that nothing is set in stone and you must perform to be on the field. Then as practices and games start you constantly reevaluate who should play at any position and make changes as necessary.

We play in a very mediocre HS conference and we really don't see a Freshman who has the physical strength to out play an average older kid. Not unheard of but also definitely not a normal everyday thing. If a 7-8 grader is competing for a V spot he better be a very rare bird or he should play lower, get reps, and get bigger and stronger.

I think if you actually looked at who was playing and broke it down by grade, almost everyone would see something very close to what our team did last season. Please see attachment.

 There’s no doubt every school is different, but some things never change.

Many, many kids repeat 8th grade around here (Southern California), so freshmen are as old as sophomores.  A freshman that starts varsity may be nearing 16 years old.  The line gets blurred when you talk about what grade a kid is in.  Is the freshman really the younger guy?

Chicago, chill out. Here's what happened. Go44 posted a link to the 20 biggest high schools in the state of Texas. I looked at his link. 3 of the 4 biggest were in the same city! Wow! Given that it's Texas, they are probably 3 of the 10 biggest in the country (no, there aren't hundreds of high schools of that size). I thought to myself, wow, I bet they are absolutely dominant, given the numbers. I looked them up and they had losing records. I posted that it was really surprising. Lesson learned, you never know who is on here (or anywhere) and it turned out that another poster has a kid on one of the teams. Then I unwisely had a back and forth with Adbono, some of which was just in fun (on my side at least), but still probably should have been avoided.

I learned awhile ago that the golden rule only works perfectly if the two people have the same sensitivities. If my son's team (or my alma mater for that matter) had a losing record, it wouldn't bother me if someone said they weren't very good -- heck, I would probably say it -- but just because it wouldn't bother me, that doesn't mean it won't bother someone else. So I deleted the post.

One thing I didn't do is call Adbono (or anyone else) any names. But if it makes you feel better, go for it. 

2019Dad posted:

Chicago, chill out. Here's what happened. Go44 posted a link to the 20 biggest high schools in the state of Texas. I looked at his link. 3 of the 4 biggest were in the same city! Wow! Given that it's Texas, they are probably 3 of the 10 biggest in the country (no, there aren't hundreds of high schools of that size). I thought to myself, wow, I bet they are absolutely dominant, given the numbers. I looked them up and they had losing records. I posted that it was really surprising. Lesson learned, you never know who is on here (or anywhere) and it turned out that another poster has a kid on one of the teams. Then I unwisely had a back and forth with Adbono, some of which was just in fun (on my side at least), but still probably should have been avoided.

I learned awhile ago that the golden rule only works perfectly if the two people have the same sensitivities. If my son's team (or my alma mater for that matter) had a losing record, it wouldn't bother me if someone said they weren't very good -- heck, I would probably say it -- but just because it wouldn't bother me, that doesn't mean it won't bother someone else. So I deleted the post.

One thing I didn't do is call Adbono (or anyone else) any names. But if it makes you feel better, go for it. 

I called you that name because you came off like that. Your logic is flawed and apparently you think because you play in a league with a couple of teams whose players are committed to D1 schools you have this incredible pulpit to say who is competitive and who isn’t. I can tell you this, only one of those teams are going to win their league, the rest will probably be viewed as non-competitive. What bothers me the most about your post is your entitled view of what competitive baseball means. You can have a league in which none of the players are college bound be competitive. If a team is in every game but lose them all by 1-run, are they not competitive? If they are a public school, your view seems to be yes. What school does your kid play for, I have friends in LA are MLB scouts, I will have them come by and let me know how competitive they are.

Chicago643 posted:

2019Dad posted:

Chicago, chill out. Here's what happened. Go44 posted a link to the 20 biggest high schools in the state of Texas. I looked at his link. 3 of the 4 biggest were in the same city! Wow! Given that it's Texas, they are probably 3 of the 10 biggest in the country (no, there aren't hundreds of high schools of that size). I thought to myself, wow, I bet they are absolutely dominant, given the numbers. I looked them up and they had losing records. I posted that it was really surprising. Lesson learned, you never know who is on here (or anywhere) and it turned out that another poster has a kid on one of the teams. Then I unwisely had a back and forth with Adbono, some of which was just in fun (on my side at least), but still probably should have been avoided.

I learned awhile ago that the golden rule only works perfectly if the two people have the same sensitivities. If my son's team (or my alma mater for that matter) had a losing record, it wouldn't bother me if someone said they weren't very good -- heck, I would probably say it -- but just because it wouldn't bother me, that doesn't mean it won't bother someone else. So I deleted the post.

One thing I didn't do is call Adbono (or anyone else) any names. But if it makes you feel better, go for it. 

I called you that name because you came off like that. Your logic is flawed and apparently you think because you play in a league with a couple of teams whose players are committed to D1 schools you have this incredible pulpit to say who is competitive and who isn’t. I can tell you this, only one of those teams are going to win their league, the rest will probably be viewed as non-competitive. What bothers me the most about your post is your entitled view of what competitive baseball means. You can have a league in which none of the players are college bound be competitive. If a team is in every game but lose them all by 1-run, are they not competitive? If they are a public school, your view seems to be yes. What school does your kid play for, I have friends in LA are MLB scouts, I will have them come by and let me know how competitive they are.

Wow.....let it go.  He has apologized TWICE!  Your dragging this on is getting old really fast.  Have a great weekend everyone....let's get rid of this snow so we can get back outside...seems like cabin fever is making some of us awfully grouchy

Chicago643 posted:

If a team is in every game but lose them all by 1-run, are they not competitive?

I guess it depends on the definition you use:

1. Competitive:  inclined, desiring, or suited to compete

OR

2. Competitive : as good as or better than others of a comparable nature.

Chicago643 posted:

2019Dad posted:

Chicago, chill out. Here's what happened. Go44 posted a link to the 20 biggest high schools in the state of Texas. I looked at his link. 3 of the 4 biggest were in the same city! Wow! Given that it's Texas, they are probably 3 of the 10 biggest in the country (no, there aren't hundreds of high schools of that size). I thought to myself, wow, I bet they are absolutely dominant, given the numbers. I looked them up and they had losing records. I posted that it was really surprising. Lesson learned, you never know who is on here (or anywhere) and it turned out that another poster has a kid on one of the teams. Then I unwisely had a back and forth with Adbono, some of which was just in fun (on my side at least), but still probably should have been avoided.

I learned awhile ago that the golden rule only works perfectly if the two people have the same sensitivities. If my son's team (or my alma mater for that matter) had a losing record, it wouldn't bother me if someone said they weren't very good -- heck, I would probably say it -- but just because it wouldn't bother me, that doesn't mean it won't bother someone else. So I deleted the post.

One thing I didn't do is call Adbono (or anyone else) any names. But if it makes you feel better, go for it. 

I called you that name because you came off like that. Your logic is flawed and apparently you think because you play in a league with a couple of teams whose players are committed to D1 schools you have this incredible pulpit to say who is competitive and who isn’t. I can tell you this, only one of those teams are going to win their league, the rest will probably be viewed as non-competitive. What bothers me the most about your post is your entitled view of what competitive baseball means. You can have a league in which none of the players are college bound be competitive. If a team is in every game but lose them all by 1-run, are they not competitive? If they are a public school, your view seems to be yes. What school does your kid play for, I have friends in LA are MLB scouts, I will have them come by and let me know how competitive they are.

Well, Chicago, so far I have seen you attack Fenway ("didn't you say one of your sons was only a bullpen catcher?") and then not even say "my bad" or apologize in any way (at least publicly) when you were corrected, and then go completely off the rails here. So I will refrain from engaging with you.

Our high school coach played a freshman over a senior last year but still played the senior some. Our fb coach had 2 senior quarterbacks neither as good as the sophomore but only played the seniors all year. Go figure

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS.....

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player... to win the job.

I believe the opposite.   I believe that if two players are comparable*, the older player gets the job.   I believe it causes better team chemistry, which causes more wins.

(*comparable in ability, work ethic, drive, and character)

CaCO3Girl posted:

Chicago643 posted:

If a team is in every game but lose them all by 1-run, are they not competitive?

I guess it depends on the definition you use:

1. Competitive:  inclined, desiring, or suited to compete

OR

2. Competitive : as good as or better than others of a comparable nature.

"a car industry competitive with any in the world"

 

By definition 1 the teams that loose by 1 run in most games would be competitive.

 

By definition 2 teams that loose over half their games would not be competitive.

 

LOVE this quirky English Language!

Let's put this to rest.  First of all - who my kid is and where he plays has nothing to do with this, and frankly that should never have been brought up by anyone. I recruit and evaluate talent in the area I live in. I know who is competitive and who isn't . Nobody in California knows what high schools in Texas are competitive. Unless they are a scout or a coach or somehow in the baseball business. Win- loss records are not the be all end all.  Using that logic UCF would be ranked #1 in college football. Granted a 14 -16 record is not impressive. But the level of competition here is better than some seem to grasp. Even with records like that the high schools in Plano are competitive. I know that because I see them on a regular basis. I took offense to someone sitting on the left coast trying to tell me what is going on in my own backyard. Things are not always as they seem to be at first blush. But as far as I'm concerned this is over. 

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

Plano West is Jr/Sr only, correct?  Do you recall the enrollment through the years you mention?  I recall close to 3,000.

Go44dad posted:

adbono posted:

To say that the 3 high schools in Plano are not competitive would be inaccurate.  Underachieving in one case maybe, but not uncompetitive.  In 2016 seven seniors from Plano West went on to play college baseball.  In 2017 six seniors did the same. 2018 is a bit of a down year so there will only be 4.  But in 2008 Plano West was undefeated and was the mythical national champions.  Also made state tournament (final 4) one other time between 2009 and 2012.  Plano HS has been a playoff team the past 3 years and Coach Robertson does a great job there.  He has sent a lot of players to college programs too.  Plano East is up and down but they also have produced some good players. Jake Arrietta comes to mind.  Maybe you have heard of him.  All the Plano high schools play in a very competitive district.  We see a college bound pitcher EVERY district game. Nobody hits .400 in our district.  Not even Billy McKinney, who was a first round draft pick out of Plano West five years ago and is now on the Yankees 40 man roster.  He hit .389 his senior year. And by the way Arrietta didn't even make all-district in HS. So you really don't know what you are talking about.  Which is no surprise.

Now having said all that, I will add that in the past few years there has been more emphasis on academics and less on athletics in Plano across the entire school district.  Plano West is ranked in the top 1% of public high schools in America.  Current PISD administration is more interested in that than how the athletic teams fare and this has resulted in a dip in athletic performance.  As a result the baseball rosters are not as deep with talent as they have historically been at 2 of the 3 schools.  Demographics have changed too as there are more families that aren't concerned about sports. Plano is an affluent community so add in the fact that Lacrosse is taking athletes away from the traditional sports and that is a factor also. In general a higher percentage of students in the Plano High Schools are more concerned with being prepared to go to college than they are concerned with HS athletics. Not saying that's good or bad, but that's the way it is.

So that's how things are in Plano - from someone who actually does know what he is talking about. 

 

 

Plano West is Jr/Sr only, correct?  Do you recall the enrollment through the years you mention?  I recall close to 3,000.

Send me a PM if you want to talk about this