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I'm not sure what reaction the OP wanted from the ump. No ump worth his salt is going to have a discussion with a fan about his knowledge of the rules or lack there of. I don't read the ump's statement as arrogant, but as an expected reaction to an inappropriate statement from someone who doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the game.

My dad was an ump and basketball and football ref for decades. He now comes to every single one my son's HS baseball games. He is the worst fan ever. Consistently and loudly criticizing the umps. I try to give him a little pass as he's almost 80, but jeez he acts like every bad fan he ever encountered. As a child, I often had to accompany my dad to his games. I often sat alone in the stands and listened to all the nasty things people said about him. It was a very hard thing to hear as a kid. I try to remember that now and really watch what I say. You never know who is around you that could be greatly impacted by your words.

Matt13 posted:

Let me say this again. Parents should not be talking to umpires, period. It is not their place, nor does it change anything. 

Of course, if you also mean to say that I can approach parents and criticize their parenting, then it's okay. 

 

I'll offer three points in the following order:  bad analogy, a great example of a good ump controlling a game situation by addressing fans, and an example of the OP's described arrogance.

PART I: First, let me agree that there are about 10,000 ways for a parent-ump conversation to go poorly and about 1 way for it to go well -- which is why there are a zillion league and organizational rules to discourage it.  But, the analogy is broken.  In the vast majority of games I watch or coach in, there are only between 1-3 people anywhere on the field that get paid.  The umps.  Everyone else is either volunteering or paying the umps.  So, when you start paying me to parent my kids, then, yes, I suppose you can criticize me.  The moment an ump takes the first nickel, he signs up for criticism.  A lot of that will be unfair.  Some of it will be fair.  Take it or leave it.

PART II:  Junior Varsity game, NFHS rules.  Swirling winds with occasional sideways rain.  My son's team on defense.  Bases loaded and batter hits tall pop fly near the pitcher's mound.  3B, SS, and P all sort of dance around and nobody catches the ball.  All runners safely advance 1 base, no outs.  Parents (esp the pitcher's dad) were pretty confused by the lack of IFF.  Not yelling, but vocally questioning the lack of a call. 

I assumed that the definition of "ordinary effort" had been effectively eliminated by the horrible weather, but most adults don't understand the interpretive nature of the IFF rule.  The umpire actually took the half inning and specifically address the parents in a very civil and polite manner.  He explained the interpretation required by the IFF rule and that, in his opinion, there was no such thing as pop fly that could be caught with ordinary effort on this day.

Now, the fans weren't rowdy or rude, so the umpire had an opportunity to have a civil discourse.  I was glad he did it.  It hopefully educated the fans and really established control over the situation.  Maybe it wasn't advised, but it was well executed.

PART III:  14U baseball governed by NFHS rules, 2014.  I'm coaching.  Regular league game.  We're on defense, pitcher has runners on the corners.  You know what happens next.  My RHP feints to 3rd, comes off the plate, spins around, nails the runner at 1st.  Umpire calls balk.

I approach the umpire and ask for clarification.  Umpire explains that the "third to first" move is now illegal and a balk.  I explain that the OBR has made feinting/faking to 3B illegal, but NFHS (and NCAA) have not yet followed suit.  We play NFHS rules and, from the pitcher position, it's legal to feint/fake to 3B (and 2B) ... just not 1B.  I, of course, lost the argument.

Not worth protesting.  But I did contact the local league office and the umpire committee about the issue.

Week later, championship game.  Same umpire crew.  In the pre-game, I wanted to confirm that he now knew that per NFHS rules that pitchers could still feint to 3B.  Nope, that would be a balk.  At that point, I stated we would be playing under protest unless we got the head of officiating on the phone.  We did and clarified this rule.  Bottom of 7, 1 run lead, 2 outs, runners on corners, opposing coach screaming bloody murder at his players to watch the "third to first" move, my pitcher executes a "3rd to 1st" move, nails the kid, game over.  Boy am I glad to have clarified the rule.

But it shows how arrogant a lot of umps can be.  Even when confronted by a coach who clearly knew a lot of nuances about OBR, Fed, NCAA, it did not prompt him to go home and look it up ... if only to confirm he was right.  And, it demonstrated a broken system, as neither the league nor the umpiring association followed up and educated the umps.  And, this isn't a unique situation.  Lots of other arrogant umps inventing rules -- turning left after 1B automatically forfeits protection, dropped 3rd strike and batter turns his back to 1B before realizing the drop is an automatic out for having abandoned his opportunity to advance, and so on.

Umps should be protected and shielded from angry parents.  But, they also bear a large burden to hone their craft and to be a student of the game/rules.

Like the OP, I'm fine with umps who get the rules wrong.  But, I see the same umps over and over who keep enforcing the BS make-believe rules, even after being confronted by coaches.  That gets frustrating, because it's clear that they're not studying the rules ... or even reading them.  Parents don't either, but then, they don't get paid to read the rules ... umps do.

But, I partially blame the NFHS for this.  I can quickly and easily download and read every major rule book from MLB (OBR), NCAA, LL, USSSA (modified OBR), and so on.  NFHS is the only organization that doesn't want its players, coaches, or umps to know the rules ... by hiding and charging for this most basic information.

Last edited by 67L48

I agree this umpire was wrong and he was also arrogant.   The only recourse a parent spectator has is to contact whatever organization that trains/assigns these umpires and make them aware of the situation.  It's up to the association to address the umpire.  Nothing good will come from a parent addressing an umpire after the game.  I wish parents who complain about the umpires would don the gear and work a few games to experience what life is like for an umpire.

If it happened as the OP said "A dad asked the umpire nicely to please look up the rule"....I have no problem with it.  The umpire is paid to know the rules....he obviously didn't know one.  Deal with it.  Now if the dad was being a *ick and said it differently, then it's not ok.  We weren't there...so no way to know for sure

Regarding the Balk situation....having called a few games, that is really a problem bigger than the individual umpire IMO.

His partner apparently doesn't know the rule either.  Any crew worth its salt reviews the game they just called.  Having a rules question MUST result in discussion by them in this post game review.  If they both think it was the right call that is a terrible sign.  The implication of that is the association they are working for is not properly training them and making sure they are up to date on the rule sets.  If they disagreed and the partner felt he interpreted the rule incorrectly - the next stop should have been to the association for guidance.  That apparently did not happen either.

I have both coached and umpired so I have been on both sides.  With that said I will tell you the umpire knows the rules better in 95%+ of the cases.  Knowledge of rules generally is in this order:

1 Umpires 2) Coaches, 3) Hot Dog vendor 4) Players 5) parents. 

 

Buckeye 2015 posted:

If it happened as the OP said "A dad asked the umpire nicely to please look up the rule"....I have no problem with it.  The umpire is paid to know the rules....he obviously didn't know one.  Deal with it.  Now if the dad was being a *ick and said it differently, then it's not ok.  We weren't there...so no way to know for sure

Let me reiterate...it is not a parent's job to ask an umpire to do anything. It is inappropriate. 

luv baseball posted:

Regarding the Balk situation....having called a few games, that is really a problem bigger than the individual umpire IMO.

His partner apparently doesn't know the rule either.  Any crew worth its salt reviews the game they just called.  Having a rules question MUST result in discussion by them in this post game review.  If they both think it was the right call that is a terrible sign.  The implication of that is the association they are working for is not properly training them and making sure they are up to date on the rule sets.  If they disagreed and the partner felt he interpreted the rule incorrectly - the next stop should have been to the association for guidance.  That apparently did not happen either.

I have both coached and umpired so I have been on both sides.  With that said I will tell you the umpire knows the rules better in 95%+ of the cases.  Knowledge of rules generally is in this order:

1 Umpires 2) Coaches, 3) Hot Dog vendor 4) Players 5) parents. 

 

unless of course the parent is a retired umpire, who now coaches, and runs a hot dog stand on the side...that puts him/her on some pretty solid ground!

My 11 year old complains about some bad calls, and he has absolutely had some bad calls against him - one of the worst was when he was at bat - swung and the ball hit his leg and went into the field of play.  He just stood there because he knew it was a foul ball, the opposing coach was screaming throw to first - they did and he was out.  He told the ump the ball hit him and the ump said, sorry he didn't see it.  My son is smart enough to run on a slap bunt - the ball hit him, the ump missed it.  No big deal - I told him sometime you get the calls and sometimes you don't  I agreed with him a missed call, but it is baseball and that will happen.  He needs to move on and not let it effect him.  Was he upset?  Yes, but he got over it and did not let it affect him.

mdschert posted:

Two outs, third strike  LH batter gives full swing  and misses curveball with RH pitcher and then ball hits batters leg.  Ump calls live ball and batter makes it to first after ricocheting.  Bases loaded so caused the game winning run.  Umpire acknowledged hit by pitch.  Umpire was the only one who didn't know the rule.  As ump was leaving after the game a dad asked him nicely to please look up the rule when he got home.  He responded by saying he knows the rules and no need to look up.  This was a HS game in Tennessee.

What would the proper mechanic be in this situation? Not sure if I've ever had this occur on a 3rd strike, two out scenerio.

Jazz posted:
mdschert posted:

Two outs, third strike  LH batter gives full swing  and misses curveball with RH pitcher and then ball hits batters leg.  Ump calls live ball and batter makes it to first after ricocheting.  Bases loaded so caused the game winning run.  Umpire acknowledged hit by pitch.  Umpire was the only one who didn't know the rule.  As ump was leaving after the game a dad asked him nicely to please look up the rule when he got home.  He responded by saying he knows the rules and no need to look up.  This was a HS game in Tennessee.

What would the proper mechanic be in this situation? Not sure if I've ever had this occur on a 3rd strike, two out scenerio.

Not sure exactly what you mean by mechanics but the NFHS rule is:

Rule 5 Dead Ball - Suspension of Play

SECTION 1 DEAD BALL

ART. 1 . . . Ball becomes dead immediately when:

a. a pitch touches a batter or his clothing (8-1-1d), a runner (8-3-1a);

1. The ball becomes dead even though the batter strikes at it (8-1-1d).

Accordingly the batter is out, the ball is dead and the game was over.

 

MDBallDad posted:
Jazz posted:
mdschert posted:

Two outs, third strike  LH batter gives full swing  and misses curveball with RH pitcher and then ball hits batters leg.  Ump calls live ball and batter makes it to first after ricocheting.  Bases loaded so caused the game winning run.  Umpire acknowledged hit by pitch.  Umpire was the only one who didn't know the rule.  As ump was leaving after the game a dad asked him nicely to please look up the rule when he got home.  He responded by saying he knows the rules and no need to look up.  This was a HS game in Tennessee.

What would the proper mechanic be in this situation? Not sure if I've ever had this occur on a 3rd strike, two out scenerio.

Not sure exactly what you mean by mechanics but the NFHS rule is:

Rule 5 Dead Ball - Suspension of Play

SECTION 1 DEAD BALL

ART. 1 . . . Ball becomes dead immediately when:

a. a pitch touches a batter or his clothing (8-1-1d), a runner (8-3-1a);

1. The ball becomes dead even though the batter strikes at it (8-1-1d).

Accordingly the batter is out, the ball is dead and the game was over.

 

The term "Mechanics" refers to the approved procedures, positioning and signaling requirements taught to and used by Umpires.  

Last edited by piaa_ump

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