Pre-rant Questions.....

Scotty83,

 

Your most recent point brings up one of the artificial but inescapable features of travel ball. 

 

At its highest levels, baseball is a game of small differences manifesting themselves over the long haul as the worst teams win around 40% of their games and the best teams lose around 40% of their games. 

 

However, at weekend or even week-long travel tournaments, baseball is a game of big differences that must manifest themselves in every game. To win a tournament, a team must sweep through pool play and survive a single elimination bracket, which might require them to have 9 or 10 quality starting pitchers.

 

It may be true that the starting eight position players and top three pitchers on some teams in the consolation brackets are as good as those on many teams in the championship bracket.  These teams can have great experiences at tournaments, accomplish all their objectives about playing well against good competition, and maybe even get visibility for their players.  The players can hold their heads high, knowing they have a good team that fell short primarily because they weren't built for big tournament play. 

 

All that is fine.  To my mind, it becomes a problem only if coaches of such teams market consolation bracket performance as more than it is. 

 

To my view, teams that aren't in the championship bracket are like golfers who miss the cut.  They don't finish with a place ranking.  The best scoring golfer who misses the cut doesn't finish in 73rd place.  He misses the cut.

 

Tournaments are not designed to rank order all the teams that enter.  They are designed to identify a champion. It's fair for a coach to say his team finished second in a tough pool that produced the eventual tournament champion.  It's fair for a team to include consolation games in its won-loss record.  But it stretches the truth to claim any place finish that derives from anything outside the championship bracket.

       
       

I promised myself I was out of this one...  but since I was directly mentioned...  first let me say my son has never been on a team that used elite in its name so its not a personal issue for me.  But some organizations who field a lot of teams use different labels to differentiate the various levels elite being one of those.  I have seen teams with elite in their name that were so so.  Have seen some that are good and some that are great.  I don't think the use of the term itself makes any team a certain level automatically.   My greater point simply was tournament ball has been watered down.  And it does negatively impact teams.

It's like winning the NIT basketball tournament. The winner can chant, "We're # 69!"

My biggest issue is really not with the kids themselves. Kids will be kids.  This game, at least at the HS level and much earlier for most, is so much more than just a game.  We have all talked about the life lessons that can be gained from baseball.  What lessons are being taught in this case? Is it that mediocrecy is okay as long as you won a trophy or plaque? My problem lies with the HC of the program.  The kids are only buying in to what they are being fed.  In the last case I mentioned, IMO, the HC is only pumping up the younger players to keep the money rolling in to support the upper team(who he does the same thing to).  This HC has gotten to the point where he doesn't even go to the younger teams games, and rarely practices with them, yet he heaps praises upon them, and that is misleading and wrong.

 

So, for those that think that this is okay, let me ask this.  When these kids come to the HC and say:  'Here is my list of schools that I am interested in playing baseball for'...what is the Coach going to say?  Is he going to say "sure, you've got a lot of talent, and when you write your letter to the HC of Baseball U, make sure you list the "Consolation Bracket Championship" you won!

 

Or, is this the time that the kid(s) will be absolutely deflated because his coach is going to have to tell him the truth(if he's honest) and say, 'sorry, you don't fit the profile for a school like that so I can't call and recommend you'.  But, hey, keep paying and playing for me and let's go chase another participation Championship Plaque.

Sorry, didn't mean to suck you back in.  

 

But I just love the term "elite"  -- seems like everyone is elite these days.   

       
       

LOL.  Thats ok.  I enjoy a good debate but when I feel like it may be becoming an arguement I usually like to bow out BEFORE it gets to that point.  And if I say I am out I do try to stay out...  now I think I am out!

First of all what, other than tournaments, are any superior teams playing in?  Are you talking about a superior league team?  A superior legion team?  A superior rec team?  Superior/elite teams play in tournaments.  It's what they do.  If you can't compete to win in tournaments, you are not a superior team IMO.  

 

Secondly, once you get beyond HS, a superior team must have pitching depth to win enough to be contenders.  MLB plays almost everyday for 162 games.  College teams play 56 games in the spring and if they are good enough, they go to the conference TOURNAMENT, then the NCAA TOURNAMENT.  They must have pitching depth to compete.  

 

There is a difference between having a team with a bunch of good ballplayers and a "superior/elite" team.  Superior means that you are well above the average team and since this is a TEAM, part of that is having pitching depth.  I'm not saying that there are not very good players that are on a team that is not superior.  But I am saying that unless that team can compete for a championship, they are not superior - as a team.

 

One of the things that used to bother me pre-HS in these tournaments was that the tournament organization would hold a qualifying tournament for a bigger one down the road.  They would have a Gold, Silver and Bronze bracket.  The winners of those three brackets would get a bid to the next tournament.  So you would have a team playing in and losing the championship game of the Gold (winners) bracket not get a bid, but the winners of the Silver and Bronze brackets would get a bid.  That is just stupid in my book.  There would be teams that would lose on purpose in pool play to play in a weaker bracket to get a bid.  

Just for the record, there are many teams that use the word Elite in their team name. We know of a couple of them that are among the best teams in the country.

 

 

       
       

Ahhhh see now this is a discussion a bunch of the parents had more than once. This was one sides argument. Last year their team played in 10 tournaments and a week day wood bat league. Their 1 went 15-0. Their 2 went 14-1 (lost a 1-0 game).  Their number 3 went 13-1 (lost a 2-1 game). Some of the parents argument was if they pitched 1&2 in pool play we would lilkey be seeded 1 or 2 in the top bracket in most of their tournaments. Since most of the tournaments they played cut bracket seeding at 8 teams that would leave them 1 game from the championship. Most likely their 3 would have won a majority of those and IMO they would have at least finished second in the major bracket in 7 of the 10 tournaments they played. Instead they won 2 gold, 4 silver, 2 bronze, and finished 2nd in gold twice. Both second place finishes the coach did the argument above and pitched 1&2 in pool 3 in semifinal. Now which record makes them a better team?

My answer. Neither. They are the same team either way. Now having said that no one ever bragged about winning silver or bronze. For that matter no one bragged about winning gold. It's just summer tournaments. The boys enjoyed playing baseball. The parents enjoyed watching baseball. Anyone getting too caught up in trophys regardless of the bracket name well. I'll say this my son was much prouder of his 3-5 record for his struggling school team than he was of his record on his summer team.

This is ridiculous!  My son never mentions any of the tournament results of his teams to coaches in recruiting e-mails.  Have coaches asked him how a weekend went?  Of course, but does son use that in recruiting?  Heck no!  Does a D-1 Coach care how son's team has done?  I don't think so.  I think he probably cares a whole lot more about how the 6'4" Lefty threw. 

 

Again, what does it matter if a kid or coach brags about winning an inferior bracket.  It doesn't mean dang thing!

       
       


I know a bad major leaguer is still a major leaguer but I'm going to compair MLB pitchers to MLB pitchers with my first statement. How many major league teams have 7 or 8 aces on their team. Wouldn't you say even the best major league teams only have two maybe 3 stud pitchers.

I've seen many colleges where their Friday, Saturday, and Sunday starters were phenominal but their weekday starters were ok at best.

I've seen quite a few HS teams win state championships with two or three stud pitchers. Heck my senior year we were the only baseball team in our schools history to make it to the 8 team state tournament and we only had 2 pitchers. Not two stud pitchers two pitchers period.

Superior and inferior are terms of comparison. A state champion would be compaired to the other teams in that teams classification. I believe the top team would be superior.

Honestly unless I'm missing something pre college summer ball is the only time tournaments are played in two days. So again I would say superior tournament team. Everything else including MLB is league ball. 

Now your last paragraph I agree completley. Also don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say teams should throw a party for winning a consolation bracket. Just that judging a team based on where the finished in some silly weekend tourney may not be a sound ideas.

By the way now that I'm thinking about it. I wonder if you took 8 MLB playoff teams and had a single elimination tourney in one day who would win?

It doesn't really matter, but it makes them look silly.  And for the OP, it may give the players and parents an inflated sense of ability.  Being positive is one thing.  Being realistic is another. 

As 13's my team competed in a CABA State Tournament. The top 12 teams out of pool went into the championship bracket and the rest into a Consolation Bracket. We went 2-1 in pool and got squeezed out of the championship bracket on the tie breaker. We proceeded to win three games, putting us into the Consolation Bracket finals. For the final game, they had three umps and a crew that brought in sound equipment. They played the National Anthem and announced the starting lineups. They played walkup music and announced the game. It seemed like a lot for a consolation game. After winning, they presented nice, big trophies and a really nice glass team plaque. My kids were maing fun of the trophies as "top losers," etc. I ran into one of the umps in the parking lot who expressed that my team didn't seem to excited at winning a state title. Then I noticed my plaque was a state championship plaque. It only then dawned on me what had happened. they had sent the entire crew, umps and all, to the wrong game. Somewhere, two very deserving teams played for the state championship on a back field with no fanfair while we went home with their state championship trophies.

It still doesn't hurt anything.  If these players are that bad, let them have a few moments in the sun!  They most likely won't have many, and they will figure it out sooner or later. 

 IMO, it does hurt them.  It's coddling.  It is teaching them avoidance, to not deal with reality as it is.   We all know life is not fair, not everyone or everything is equal. Learning how to cope with loss, disappointment and other adversities are just a few of the great things kids can learn through sports, if you let them.  

 

But again, my issues lie with the HC and coaching staff that suborn and foster this type of atmosphere, not he kids.  It is a coaches job to teach the kids some of the above, not perpetuate fantasy.

It's not perpetuating fantasy at all.  Having other divisions at a tournament is a great way to provide a great experience for all.  Putting like teams into the same bracket is smart.  I am quite sure this helps to have teams that come back each year.  By having additional brackets, teams can play more games, which can be beneficial. 

In that case, the teams should enter tourny's that they are able to compete in.  In this particular case, there were only 12 teams, and not to knock the teams, there were no real top level teams there.  It was a low level, average at best tourny.  So from the beginning, it was pretty equal and even across the board as far as talent level goes.

 

When PG starts offering consolation Championship Trophies, maybe I'll change my mind....lol

I think there are two flavors here.  A weekend deal with 6-12 teams forget the consolation stuff.

 

Weeklong affair in Disney, CABA etc.  I'd say get'em the extra games.  Been on both sides at Disney.  Getting knocked out by 1 run in the original pool in 2 extra inning games.  We then proceeded to win 6 in a row before losing a semi in the "consolation" round.  Some of those teams were solid clubs as were we.  The two teams that advanced from our pool finished in the round of 16 and semi's overall.  Of the 80+ teams there I would say we were probably solidly in the 2nd tier of 25 teams after the top 7-8.  We had nothing to be ashamed of, played a good solid week of baseball and had a family vacation on top of it all spending a couple of days in the parks. 

 

We went there knowing we'd get at least 6 games and got 10.  We got our money's worth and never regretted the extra games. 

 

On the other hand we never stressed too much about winning and losing (the parents did).  Our focus was not getting anyone hurt, finding good teams and playing them to make our kids better players and prepare them for HS ball.  Won our share but I can promise you that no one can name the winner of a single tournament we played in other than maybe the State Tournament.

 

 

There are many great tournaments that determine who is in what bracket based on how they do in pool play.  Just because you don't like, doesn't make it wrong.  If your kid is good, he'll have many opportunities to feel good about himself.  If your kid is not as talented, he may not.  I am assuming that your kid is a good player, so why do you care if some of these other kids feel something that your son probably has felt many times before and will many times in the future?  I just don't get it.  I think it is great for kids to enjoy playing sports, and there is more to it than being one of the elite.  It seems pretty selfish to want it your way, but we are obviously not getting anywhere with this.  I'm out...

Okay, I will try and say this one more time, after all I warned from the beginning it was my rant.

 

Ryno, not sure why you keep trying to spin it that I am against the kids themselves.  I have said repeatedly that my issue is with the way the HC is handling the situation and what he is teaching the kids by going about it this way.  Like I said before, kids will be kids.  And at no time did my son, other than his comments to the original situation, come in to play.  He isn't even playing on the team, or any team for that fact, at this time.

 

I can't even remember where "elite" was brought into the thread, oh wait, you did by claiming some of us had "elitist" attitudes...which has nothing to do with the original rant or the follow up rant.  Like you said, guess we'll just have to disagree....oh wait, is that elitist of me for not agreeing......(just kidding)

 

It been a great discussion and thank you all for participating.