Question about PG Bat Rules for 2018 (13u/14u divisions)

Can anyone provide a summary of the tournament BAT rules for PBR for the 13u and 14u age groups including bats that are currently banned.  I've tried researching this and can't figure it out but I think this is what they net out at..

-for 13u/14u Metal Bats only ( which I assume means alloy AND composite?)

-For 14u bats must be  -5 or BBCOR; 13u any drop is OK? 

-2017 DeMarini Zens are banned (except the -5); no Demarini CF8s are currently banned; the 2018 Demarini Zens are not currently banned

-Do bat rules ever vary by tournament or showcase location? 

-Only certain wood bats (why would anyone use wood?)

For PG S Showcases (AT OLDER AGES)do they provide the bats you use and if so drop/BBCOR and brand are they? 

Thanks

Original Post

I responded.  I was referring to whenever PG officially measures batted ball exit velo using radar (?) and bat speed using Zepp.  Do they currently use wood, a certain BBCOR / brand etc?   14u and up I guess, if they record that Thanks for the question! 

Dadof3 posted:

Great question, but what about all the other open tournaments in the 13u/14u division?  Ripkin/ACB and all the others?  Are they going to the new usa standard or are they staying the same?

This "new bat" was discussed on the local youth board, here is a link from usabats:

http://www.usabatbats.com/usabat-bat-standard-2018/

 

A new bat-performance standard is coming to the youth baseball in January 1 2018. But what is the standard about? The USA Baseball organization, a national governing body of sports, has decided to adopt a new performance standard for the youth baseball bats. Befittingly, they have named it the USABat Standard. Even though the standard is yet to take effect, it is having broader ramifications for retailers, coaches, players, parents and manufacturers.

The USABat standard will replace the current 1.15 Bat Performance Factor (BPF) standard. The two standards (the current and the coming one) establish boundaries on barrel performance. However, the USABat standard authorizes a wood-like performance than the 1.15 BPF.

National Organizations Affected

If your child will be under the age of 14 years next season and playing the recreational baseball in the large USA Baseball national member organizations, then expect the standard to affect him/her. Several organizations have confirmed that they will implement the standard starting next season but for confirmation, you should contact your child’s local league organization. The organizations include:

Pony Baseball

Little League Baseball

Dixie Youth Baseball

Amateur Athletic Union (AAU)

American Amateur Baseball Congress (AABC)

Babe Ruth Baseball/ Cal Ripken Baseball

Tee Ball Bat Sticker Program

 

-After that was posted the local reps for USSSA and triple crown came on and said they are NOT following the USABat Standard. TBS says it will allow the new bats but aren't requiring them.

GoBlue, I have no experience in PBR.  I can say that the only org, that I know of, in GA that allows non BBCOR bats at 14u is USSSA. From the amount of kids who showed up to 14u tryouts with a drop 10 I'm guessing 13u doesn't have any drop rules.

PG tourneys may be metal or wood, or option for both.  Yes, it could change from tournament to tournament, but they always post the bat rules on the event page.

By th

CaCO3Girl posted:

GoBlue, I have no experience in PBR.  I can say that the only org, that I know of, in GA that allows non BBCOR bats at 14u is USSSA. From the amount of kids who showed up to 14u tryouts with a drop 10 I'm guessing 13u doesn't have any drop rules.

PG tourneys may be metal or wood, or option for both.  Yes, it could change from tournament to tournament, but they always post the bat rules on the event page.

Thanks CaCO3...I was totally shocked when my 8th grader played in a USSSA touranment as a 14 year old and kids were using  32 inch -10 bats.  Very unsafe if you ask me. 

So 14u PG uses BBCOR?  What about 13u PG?  is -5 required?  Are any BBCOR bats OK for metrics once they are old enough for that, or do they make you use a particular bat, or wood?   Thanks 

 

You can look on the PG website under Events and then filter to the age group and state you want to play in.  ALWAYS check the Bat Rules.

April 2017 13u = Metal bat only

April 2017 14u = Metal bat only

May 2017 13u PG Super25 = Metal bat only

May 20174 14u WWBA = Wood bat only

September 2018 13u = Metal Bat only

September 2018 14u = Metal bat only

However, if you click on bat restrictions it has instruction by age group:

BCS - Metal Bat Tournaments

14U-18U: Metal bat. All teams must use BBCOR -3 bats that are legal according to the National High School Federation.Wood bats are also allowed.

13U: Metal bat. All bats must have a branding, label, or stamp proving BPF 1.15 or BBCOR on it. There is length to weight ratio maximum of -5 (5 ounces). NO WOOD BATS

CaCO3Girl posted:

You can look on the PG website under Events and then filter to the age group and state you want to play in.  ALWAYS check the Bat Rules.

April 2017 13u = Metal bat only

April 2017 14u = Metal bat only

May 2017 13u PG Super25 = Metal bat only

May 20174 14u WWBA = Wood bat only

September 2018 13u = Metal Bat only

September 2018 14u = Metal bat only

However, if you click on bat restrictions it has instruction by age group:

BCS - Metal Bat Tournaments

14U-18U: Metal bat. All teams must use BBCOR -3 bats that are legal according to the National High School Federation.Wood bats are also allowed.

13U: Metal bat. All bats must have a branding, label, or stamp proving BPF 1.15 or BBCOR on it. There is length to weight ratio maximum of -5 (5 ounces). NO WOOD BATS

So ignoring wood bat possibility and assuming Metal Bat means any composite (not  wood composite)  the net is 13u uses -5 and 14u uses BBCOR. Right? 

Goblue33 posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:

You can look on the PG website under Events and then filter to the age group and state you want to play in.  ALWAYS check the Bat Rules.

April 2017 13u = Metal bat only

April 2017 14u = Metal bat only

May 2017 13u PG Super25 = Metal bat only

May 20174 14u WWBA = Wood bat only

September 2018 13u = Metal Bat only

September 2018 14u = Metal bat only

However, if you click on bat restrictions it has instruction by age group:

BCS - Metal Bat Tournaments

14U-18U: Metal bat. All teams must use BBCOR -3 bats that are legal according to the National High School Federation.Wood bats are also allowed.

13U: Metal bat. All bats must have a branding, label, or stamp proving BPF 1.15 or BBCOR on it. There is length to weight ratio maximum of -5 (5 ounces). NO WOOD BATS

So ignoring wood bat possibility and assuming Metal Bat means any composite (not  wood composite)  the net is 13u uses -5 and 14u uses BBCOR. Right? 

That is my take on it as well.  As I said, the rules are posted on each event page. If you know the event you are going to you can look up the rules for that event.

My son looks at every bat to make sure its labeled and the seal is in place.  Cheaters ARE out there and there are websites that claim they will shave a bat and its only for entertainment purposes (Then claim that they can all but hide the fact it was shaved.  Why would they need to do that????).

This year, and at a PG event I believe, we spotted a drop -5 being used.  Showed the ump and he said "so what.  What do you want me to do about it".  We were floored.  

PG umps are not "expert" level umps one may think being associated with PG and they sure as hell don't know the rules nor care about them.

Had one ump blow a call that would have went against us.  Both sides were sitting together under shade and enjoying a good game.  Man on first, pitcher pitches (field ump calls balk like he was in church) batter hits the ball and makes it to first and runner advanced to second.   Ump said it was a dead ball immediately when a balk is called.  WHICH is incorrect.  Guy made his call but was overhearing me explain the REAL rule to parents and he thought it best to disagree with me.  I said I would give him my number and he could text me HIS rule when he finds it in ANY book.     Guy never did text me.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Goblue33 posted: Thanks CaCO3...I was totally shocked when my 8th grader played in a USSSA touranment as a 14 year old and kids were using  32 inch -10 bats.  Very unsafe if you ask me. … 

What is unsafe about 32” -10 bat?

 

I think I know where you're going with this.  Had an argument with a friend when we were both coaching in our local junior high league (no sanctioning...swing what you bring).  Our guys were using -3 and -5.  He had kids swinging -8.  I couldn't get him to understand that if our kids were swinging a 32-27 or a 31-28 at the same bat speed as his kids swinging 31-23 that the extra weight of our bats would allow them it hit harder.  He just absolutely refused to believe it.....even though our kids were hitting balls 20-30' further on average than his kids.  My son actually tried one of their -8's....he was swinging a -3 and laughed when he couldn't get balls anywhere near what he was with his -3.  Even after seeing it, my friend stuck to his argument lol.    I wouldn't be real concerned with a 14 year old kid swinging a 22 oz bat.....I'd be more worried about the kid swinging the 32-29.

Kevin A posted:

My son looks at every bat to make sure its labeled and the seal is in place.  Cheaters ARE out there and there are websites that claim they will shave a bat and its only for entertainment purposes (Then claim that they can all but hide the fact it was shaved.  Why would they need to do that????).

This year, and at a PG event I believe, we spotted a drop -5 being used.  Showed the ump and he said "so what.  What do you want me to do about it".  We were floored.  

PG umps are not "expert" level umps one may think being associated with PG and they sure as hell don't know the rules nor care about them.

Had one ump blow a call that would have went against us.  Both sides were sitting together under shade and enjoying a good game.  Man on first, pitcher pitches (field ump calls balk like he was in church) batter hits the ball and makes it to first and runner advanced to second.   Ump said it was a dead ball immediately when a balk is called.  WHICH is incorrect.  Guy made his call but was overhearing me explain the REAL rule to parents and he thought it best to disagree with me.  I said I would give him my number and he could text me HIS rule when he finds it in ANY book.     Guy never did text me.

What rule set was this tourney using?.............that is what determines what the "real rule" is..

A balk in a tourney using NFHS rules is an immediate dead ball....

A balk in a tourney using MLB rules is a delayed dead ball......If all runners and batter runner advance at least one base, ignore the balk........otherwise call time and advance all runners one base.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Goblue33 posted: Thanks CaCO3...I was totally shocked when my 8th grader played in a USSSA touranment as a 14 year old and kids were using  32 inch -10 bats.  Very unsafe if you ask me. … 

What is unsafe about 32” -10 bat?

 

A kid can swing a drop 10 faster than a drop 3, it delays the reaction of the fielder and short term I do think the ball goes faster.  Long ball I think is BBCOR all day long, but infield...especially on one of those fake bunts , allow everyone to come in, and then swing for the fences at bats...*shudder*, that causes more trouble for infielders.

CaCO3Girl posted: A kid can swing a drop 10 faster than a drop 3, it delays the reaction of the fielder and short term I do think the ball goes faster.  Long ball I think is BBCOR all day long, but infield...especially on one of those fake bunts , allow everyone to come in, and then swing for the fences at bats...*shudder*, that causes more trouble for infielders.

 Will a lighter bat be swung faster than a heavier one? In most cases it sure will. But how much more dangerous it would be is a matter for discussion. FI, how many fake bunt swing away situations are there in a game, and what are the chances a fielder would get drilled?

 As horrifying as it is when a player gets injured by a hit ball, injuries happen whether it’s wood or metal. The only way to avoid fielding injuries is to only be the DH.

 

Stats:  "  ..My son actually tried one of their -8's....he was swinging a -3 and laughed when he couldn't get balls anywhere near what he was with his -3.  ...."

Stats,

Good anecdote.  But the fact is that 20 years ago most college players swung minus-5's even though minus-3's were available.  Huge sample size.  The players "voted" minus-5.

My anecdote: 

A friend of mine led his HS conference with 10 home runs back in the early 1980's.  I recently complimented him on that.  He replied, "Yeah, well I was swinging a minus-8!"

Another:

"Two years ago, [2003]  Frank Thomas started using an aluminum bat in batting practice. ... Major League Baseball told Thomas and the team to stop when fans entered the park.

'He was hitting the ball so hard that once the gates opened, people were really in danger,' Walker says. 'The ball came off the aluminum bat so fast, they sent up word we had to quit.'  "

http://www.usatoday.com/sports...tting-practice_x.htm

 

Buckeye 2015 posted:
Stats4Gnats posted:

Goblue33 posted: Thanks CaCO3...I was totally shocked when my 8th grader played in a USSSA touranment as a 14 year old and kids were using  32 inch -10 bats.  Very unsafe if you ask me. … 

What is unsafe about 32” -10 bat?

 

I think I know where you're going with this.  Had an argument with a friend when we were both coaching in our local junior high league (no sanctioning...swing what you bring).  Our guys were using -3 and -5.  He had kids swinging -8.  I couldn't get him to understand that if our kids were swinging a 32-27 or a 31-28 at the same bat speed as his kids swinging 31-23 that the extra weight of our bats would allow them it hit harder.  He just absolutely refused to believe it.....even though our kids were hitting balls 20-30' further on average than his kids.  My son actually tried one of their -8's....he was swinging a -3 and laughed when he couldn't get balls anywhere near what he was with his -3.  Even after seeing it, my friend stuck to his argument lol.    I wouldn't be real concerned with a 14 year old kid swinging a 22 oz bat.....I'd be more worried about the kid swinging the 32-29.

Are you guys taking into account that -3 means BBCOR now and the bat is not just heavier it's got thicker walls, or re-stricter rings and a really small sweet spot so the ball doesn't bounce off like it does with a -5 or -10 composite and kill the pitcher?    Sure a -3 BESR was better than a -10 USSSA BPF 1.15 in a big kids hands. That's not the point.  The point is BBCOR should be used for kids once they reach HS age because non-bbcor composite bats whether -10 or 5 have a ton of trampoline and the ball got to the pitcher so quickly they could injure him. That's the entire reason BBCOR and USA Bat Standard (which I hate) exist.    

The fake swinging bunts are called a butcher boy.  At many levels it is an illegal swing.  Not entirely sure at what point it IS legal but I know a majority of the tournaments to date have them outlawed.  Something tells me that at a minimum it is outlawed in HS as well and only legal in MLB (Legion ball basically follows MLB rules with minor changes.)

 

Not sure who our resident ump or rules person who likes to check on those items.. LOL

freddy77 posted:

Stats,

Good anecdote.  But the fact is that 20 years ago most college players swung minus-5's even though minus-3's were available.  Huge sample size.  The players "voted" minus-5.

My anecdote: 

A friend of mine led his HS conference with 10 home runs back in the early 1980's.  I recently complimented him on that.  He replied, "Yeah, well I was swinging a minus-8!"

Another:

"Two years ago, [2003]  Frank Thomas started using an aluminum bat in batting practice. ... Major League Baseball told Thomas and the team to stop when fans entered the park.

'He was hitting the ball so hard that once the gates opened, people were really in danger,' Walker says. 'The ball came off the aluminum bat so fast, they sent up word we had to quit.'  "

My son pitched his 1st HS Fall Ball game at 13 in 1999. By the time he finished pitching in college in 2006, he had thrown against some of the hottest bats ever produced. But it wasn’t the drop weight that made them hot, it was the construction of the bats. They were literally trampolines that shot the ball off them.

My anecdote. My boy pitched from 1995 thru 2006. He got a broken arm by getting hit by a pitch, a couple broken toes from getting stepped on covering 1st, a broken finger from getting hit with a thrown bat while in the on deck circle, a cracked rib from a collision covering home, and scores of minor cuts and abrasions like every other ball player who lasts that long. But in all that time, in about 500 innings of pitching, he never once got as much as a black and blue mark from a hit pitch.

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