Should he bring his catchers gear? Can I stay?

coach2709 posted:

Golfman25 posted:

coach2709 posted:

 

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jdb posted:

I know you have done this for a long time.  When you coach, what are your priorities during freshman tryouts?  Do you focus more on offense or defense?  Other than pitching, is there a position that you focus on?  Do you have disqualifiers that you look for.  Do your priorities change year to year?

You can address those specifically about catchers to stay in line with the original question, but I'd love to hear what you looked at overall too.

Sounds like their are some regional differences but also the economic situation of the school plays a factor as well.  I've coached baseball at four different schools and all but one were poor.  I mean probably have enough to pay bills but not be able to get the high end stuff.  So our kids getting their own gear is rare.  Yes it's happened but most often it doesn't.  If I did what your coach does then I will never have a catcher because they aren't bringing their own gear.  Having your own gear shows you're serious about the position and I'll give them first shot if that's what they want but I'm not turning a kid away just because they don't have it.  I'll provide it for them.

I agree with your coach that if I have players in place at the time and for the future I'm not going to try out a project at catcher or infield.  If I get a raw baseball player with potential I'm going to put them in the outfield because (in my opinion) it's the easiest to teach.  If they pan out and push a kid out of an outfield spot then cool or if they really pick up the game quickly I'll look at them in the infield if there is a need.  I'll take a prospect as a pitcher any day of the week if they have a power arm although pitching is tough to teach.  You can never have enough arms.

Overall for my trouts I give them 3 days guaranteed tryout unless they don't show up for the second / third day.  After the third day I'll either keep them, cut them or give them a week's extension because I'm just not sure and want to see them longer.  First day is a pro style tryout - 60 yard sprint, everyone throws from RF, everyone throws from SS and then we start hitting.  Everyone gets the same number of cuts - 2 bunts, 2 hit and runs and 8 cuts.  While people are hitting I tell everyone else to go whatever position they want and shag.  After BP is over we look at pitchers and catchers.  We tell those who want to pitch and catch to head to the bullpen.  At this point if there were some arms we saw we liked from RF and SS we tell them to go to even if they have never pitched.  We get the pitchers loose and will do some blocking / footwork drills with catchers.  Then everyone gets about 15 pitches all fastballs and changes ups.  The strong arms we got to see how they react and if it might be worth continuing on as a pitcher.  This sounds like a lot but we would only have about 40 or less kids to tryout for about 15 on varsity and 15 on JV.  So the first day is a little time consuming but it's not bad overall.  Once BP is done and guys are heading to the pen we send everyone else home.

Second day is all defense (maybe some BP if we are good on time) but at this point we teach and we teach to see how receptive they are to teaching.  Do they listen, do they blow us off, are they able to take what we teach and apply it and things like that.  We will tell them to go the spots they want to go but we try to keep it as generalized as possible - all IF work same IF drills, same with OF and catchers do their own thing.  But we will do an extended pre-game IF / OF with some situation type stuff thrown in to see how they react.  End of this practice we meet as a staff and start the cutting process.  We break them down into - cut (they have shown us nothing or very little - third day hitting better be impressive), keep (they just have it and look like baseball players - if they can't hit we will teach them) and the unknown group (hitting may guarantee them a keep but this group will probably get the week extension).

Third day is all hitting (but we watch them during BP as well).  We will break them into two groups with one group on the field (typically older guys we know and younger guys who have already impressed us).  We will spend about 40 mins hitting in different rounds - first round (2 bunts, 2 hit and runs, 2 hit behind, 2 squeeze and 8 cuts) second round (2 bunt for base hit, 2 bunts and 6 cuts) third round (5 - 7 cuts depending on how much time we have).  We will incorporate some younger pitchers in with this group behind an L screen throwing fast balls and changes.  We see how they handle pitching and the better younger hitters get to see them hit live.  We don't spend a whole lot of time with this especially if a guy can't throw strikes.

While this is going on the other group (younger / newer guys) will be over at the cages / stations going through our drills.  Older guys getting bullpens in - the ones we already know from previous years but a coach is watching them.

After about an hour and half we switch and I try to not go over 3 hours on this day.  Also weather may cause us to switch hitting to the second day or have to evaluate in the gym which stinks.

After this practice is over we have the guys clean the field and we meet as a staff to see if any of our choices have changed.  Rarely does a keep move down but a week extension may move up to a keep or down to a cut.  A cut sometimes moves up to a week extension.  Then everyone goes up to the gym where my office is and we call them in one at a time to let them know their fate.  If they are a keep we hit it and get it to save time.  "Congrats you're on the team and you will play varsity / JV and your role will be ______.  Now if you work hard enough you can change your role.  Any questions?" I try to keep these at a minute or less to be honest.  The ones we give a week extension to will be a little longer but not much.  "We really like some things we saw which are _______ but there are some things we still have questions which are ________.  So you will get to stay with us another week and you need to impress us with _________.  At the end of the week we will let you know if you're on the team or cut.  Any questions?" This is a minute and a half or less.  Then we have the cut group.  "Really appreciate what you've given us these past 3 days but at this point you do not have the skill level we are looking for.  Your strengths are ________ and your weaknesses are _______.  We strongly encourage you to find someplace to play and work on these and come out next year.  Do you have any questions?"  This will take as long as is needed depending on the kid.  I may have just broke his heart and I'm not going to release him from my office to see all those guys until he has had a chance to compose himself.  It may be quick or he may need some time or he may have questions but I'm not kicking a kid out and have a high chance of being embarrassed.  I did the cut list on my door the next day my first year and I'll never do it again.  I had a kid in my class who I had a good relationship with break down crying in the hallway and it ruined our relationship.  He hardly spoke to me again the rest of the year.  That made me realize that posting a list is a chickensh*t way to handle kids and 18 years later I'm still embarrassed I did it.  Now if the kid is being a jack rear end because he got cut then I'm kicking him out.  He go cuss me out somewhere else.  I'll call the first kid in and then tell them to send another kid in when they leave so it's random on how we tell them.  

So what do we look for?  We look for athleticism and if they are baseball players.  We look for guys who are teachable, hustle and great attitudes.  Once we get into practice then we tell them "hey we have a shortage at such and such - why don't some of you at ________ look to move".  Now it's their choice to move but I'm constantly stressing "do you want to be the starter at a second position or the back up on the bench at your primary position?"  If nobody moves then I'll move someone and tell them that's the final decision because it's best for the team.

That's a really long winded answer and if you didn't make it this far I will totally understand.  I'm sure others have better ways of doing things and sometimes we will modify how we do it based on our numbers but overall this works for us.

That being said I want to stress I actually haven't coached baseball in 4 years and it's been 8 years since I was a head coach.  But this is how we did it back then and it worked.  I know it sounds like I'm still coaching above but I'm not and I don't want to go back and edit all that so here's the disclaimer.  I'm looking for a head coaching job now and when I get it I'm going to do this again just modified for the set up we have at that school.

Thanks Coach2709, I read every word and did not find it long winded at all.  Thanks for taking the time to write such an in-depth answer.  I actually knew you weren't currently coaching baseball from your posts on other threads, but your experience is what drove the questions.

It's funny how some of those tough experiences, such as cutting the player by posting a list on the door, stick with you.  I suppose they often shape your coaching philosophy as much or more than the successes.

Do you have any quirky things that you look for in these tryouts?  Something like a college scout who watches players get off the bus and forms his first impression based on that observation.  I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but generally long term coaches develop these unusual disqualifiers based on experiences over the years.

Going to be contrary here.  You say the kid prefers playing RHP, LF, CF, RF, and 1B over playing C.  In that case, unless his catching skills are needed to make the team, I'd leave the gear at home.  The problem is that in a big workout like that the coaches need to see a lot of bullpens, and your kid could end up in the squat all day catching those pens, when he'd rather be getting reps elsewhere and throwing his own pen for the coaches to see.

If they are short on catchers and need a guy to step up during the season, that's a different story.

JCG posted:

Going to be contrary here.  You say the kid prefers playing RHP, LF, CF, RF, and 1B over playing C.  In that case, unless his catching skills are needed to make the team, I'd leave the gear at home.  The problem is that in a big workout like that the coaches need to see a lot of bullpens, and your kid could end up in the squat all day catching those pens, when he'd rather be getting reps elsewhere and throwing his own pen for the coaches to see.

If they are short on catchers and need a guy to step up during the season, that's a different story.

Coach2709, you rock, thanks for that explanation.

JCG, that's my fear, he is a very good pitcher and fielder for his age but catching, he's weak on too many areas to go far with it and he knows it but he enjoys seeing everything and calling the pitches and says it makes him a better hitter seeing so many pitches. He has talked about giving it up but then he catches a game and says he changed his mind.  Hopefully the coach will evaluate him in other spots, or if the catching thing burns him there is always next year and he will have learned a lesson.

If the coach knows the incoming players from LL or travel (whatever feeder pipeline he has), he should already know where you son will play or not play (right or wrong, he should have an opinion already).  If you just moved, that's a different story.  Take the gear just in case and then split, find a hiding place and watch, but don't get caught.  Is your son stressing over it?  Don't add to it, just be prepared as best you can. The more options your son presents to the coach the better chance he has of making the team.  The rest will work itself out during tryouts, inter-squad, scrimmages, and games. 

2019Dad posted:

hshuler posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Thank you everyone!  I'll send him with both his bags then, and oddly enough his gear does match the school colors, so BONUS!  My kid has this general fog about him, Chipper Jones could be at the tryouts and he would just say oh cool, and carry on, so if I do show up a bit early I can't see it bothering him.  It sounds more like just a practice than an actual tryout, those don't happen until January, but I actually wanted to see the other kids and how the practice was being run.  I don't know enough about baseball to really critique much, I'm just curious.

All great advice but I will add that although it's not a tryout, the coach is gaining valuable information and taking notes on players. 

Bottom line is that most coaches aren't going to cut a good pitcher or a good catcher...and even if your son plays another position, knowing that he's can catch, if needed, is a luxury for a coach. 

Best wishes to T-Man!

What hshuler said. There is a school near here that has similar four or five "voluntary workouts" -- not tryouts -- for the ~50 incoming freshmen who are interested in trying out for baseball. The first thing the kids do is run 60s which are timed and recorded by the coaches, and throughout the "workout" the coaches are taking notes (literally) on kids. Particular standouts were pulled aside afterwards by the varsity head coach for one-on-one conversation, etc. Remember: not a tryout!

And good luck to him!

Make no mistake.  It IS a "tryout."

jdb posted:

Thanks Coach2709, I read every word and did not find it long winded at all.  Thanks for taking the time to write such an in-depth answer.  I actually knew you weren't currently coaching baseball from your posts on other threads, but your experience is what drove the questions.

It's funny how some of those tough experiences, such as cutting the player by posting a list on the door, stick with you.  I suppose they often shape your coaching philosophy as much or more than the successes.

Do you have any quirky things that you look for in these tryouts?  Something like a college scout who watches players get off the bus and forms his first impression based on that observation.  I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but generally long term coaches develop these unusual disqualifiers based on experiences over the years.

Yeah it is funny how some things shape you.  I felt so bad for that kid and I was 100% responsible for that.  All year when he was in my class I just knew he wasn't going to be any good because he had that look about him and I was right.  But he had such a love for the game and we talked baseball all the time.  I just hope that I didn't destroy the love of the game for him.  Breaking hearts is part of the job and it sucks but there's a right way and a wrong way.  It's hard for coaches to get this sometimes because we probably were never cut.  I never was so I don't know that feeling but if a kid is going to work his tail off for 3 days then he's earned the right to hear it man to man why he isn't good enough.  I need to be man enough to allow him to keep his dignity intact.

I don't think I have any quirky things I look for.  I do notice the "playas" who show up decked out in the best wrist bands, new batting gloves that fit perfectly out of each back pocket, brand new bat, new glove and all that.  I see those kids and try to guess exactly how good they are.  Typically I don't think they are all that talented and usually I'm right.  Sometimes you see that one kid who's visibly nervous and hanging by himself before we get started.  I always make it a point to talk to him, tell a joke and try to relax him.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

I just try not to overthink it.  I want to make my team based on who the best 15 are in terms of skill.  I do go watch the youth / rec games to kinda scout it out but end of the day who shows up and has 3 good days is who I pick.  My belief is if you can't perform to the best of your ability in 3 days you don't have it.  I give them 3 days so they can overcome that bad day due to nerves.

coach2709 posted:

jdb posted:

 

Yeah it is funny how some things shape you.  I felt so bad for that kid and I was 100% responsible for that.  All year when he was in my class I just knew he wasn't going to be any good because he had that look about him and I was right.  But he had such a love for the game and we talked baseball all the time.  I just hope that I didn't destroy the love of the game for him.  Breaking hearts is part of the job and it sucks but there's a right way and a wrong way.  It's hard for coaches to get this sometimes because we probably were never cut.  I never was so I don't know that feeling but if a kid is going to work his tail off for 3 days then he's earned the right to hear it man to man why he isn't good enough.  I need to be man enough to allow him to keep his dignity intact.

I don't think I have any quirky things I look for.  I do notice the "playas" who show up decked out in the best wrist bands, new batting gloves that fit perfectly out of each back pocket, brand new bat, new glove and all that.  I see those kids and try to guess exactly how good they are.  Typically I don't think they are all that talented and usually I'm right.  Sometimes you see that one kid who's visibly nervous and hanging by himself before we get started.  I always make it a point to talk to him, tell a joke and try to relax him.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

I just try not to overthink it.  I want to make my team based on who the best 15 are in terms of skill.  I do go watch the youth / rec games to kinda scout it out but end of the day who shows up and has 3 good days is who I pick.  My belief is if you can't perform to the best of your ability in 3 days you don't have it.  I give them 3 days so they can overcome that bad day due to nerves.

Good Stuff Coach, thanks again.

RJM posted:

Bring the catcher's equipment. Then he's prepared for anything. Pay attention to whether the coach says get on THE catcher's gear or YOUR catcher's gear.

Don't watch the first practice. It's not just the coach. Your son might not like it. Arrive about twenty minutes early to pick him up. If you see a bunch of parents watching walk over, say hello and watch the end of practice. Do not be hanging on the fence anywhere near the infield or backstop. Be in the stands or down the line away from any action. Direct nothing towards the field. Be invisible.

My son carried his gear in his bag, it was just what he drug along. And I agreeing the 20 minutes early for pickup. Is sit in my car and see another parent walk in, wait 2 minutes, and then roll in. I do think it's tough being the mom.  Lots of dads there, I'm often the only mom or one of a couple. 

Caco bring the gear. Don't stay. My son did some winter open gyms at the high school. I dropped, went home, and came back just a little early to pick him up and stood in the doorway of the gym to catch the last five or ten minutes. That way you at least get a little fix!  Outside you may even e able to get away with 15 minutes or so. Just stand far away. But staying is really out of the question. 

Go44dad posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

ironhorse posted:

Solid advice for sure. Worst case scenario:

Coach: "Anyone catch?"

Player: (Confidently raises hand)

C: "Alright. Gear up and head to the bull pen."

P: (Not so confidently) "Ummm...My gear is in my mom's car."

 

The school probably has gear, but you just never know.

Humm....this brings up another issue.  From favorite to least favorite (if he has such a thing in baseball) here is what he likes:

RHP, 1B, OF, C, anywhere on the field, bench.

Catching is not a passion of his, he just likes it, but he'd rather be playing other positions...is there a chance he will be pigeon holed if he brings his gear?

EDIT: His hitting is a major strength.

"Coach, I can play every position!  Wherever you need me! "  is my guess of what coaches like to hear.

Unless the kid really can't play any position and then loses credibility with the coach.  

CaCO3Girl, my son finished HS baseball a few weeks ago.   A little background:  he attends a school in the largest sports classification in Texas and in his senior year, there were 26 kids on varsity (19 seniors).  JV carried 24 players and Sophomore had 26 players.  These are the three teams at the high school level in our area.  

When high school started for him, and still today, my son would tell you that he is a catcher, and the college that he will attend considers him a catcher.   However, if I had it to do over again, I would make sure that my son was a proficient outfielder!  Simple math tells you that there is only one 1B, one C, but 3 positions in the OF.  On a team with approximately 25 players, we should have played the odds and not taken the attitude that his bat and defensive ability would do the talking.  

Every school and baseball program is different, and while all the coaches on this forum will tell you that all that matters is ability, that is not always the case.  A lot factors into if a kid will play and where he plays in our program.  I won't bore you with details at the risk of sounding like I have sour grapes because that is not the case.  I am thrilled with how my son's HS baseball played out.  He learned that life is not always fair, that he has to put in the work, and that sometimes you have to sacrifice (in this case, his love for basketball) in order to succeed at what you want the most.  All of those things are more important than whether he was the starting catcher his freshman year.  

After earning the starting catching position as a sophomore, he was converted to a pitcher before his junior year.  Senior year, he was hoping to pitch and catch, but his coach does not believe in one person playing both of those positions during district play.  By this point, he had earned the complete respect of his coach, and the coach told him that he would find someone else to be one of the two starting pitchers during district if he truly wanted to catch.  Coach probably said that knowing that my son would tell him that he would do whatever was best for the team.  

All this to say, if my son had worked at his defensive skills in the OF, he would not have been relegated to DH during the games he did not start on the mound.  So take the gear, but realize that if he wants to be on the field, he should play the percentages.

In reference to the "should I stay question," I too am a mom.  In Texas, baseball is very much a man's world, even in 2016.  Moms should wear the bling shirts and be team mom and that's about it.  Despite the fact that I out coached them repeatedly when the kids were younger and played more ball than most of them, its different when a woman stays to watch.  By high school, I showed up for games and that was it.  Your situation may be different, but realize that what is good for the "bubbas" might not be good for mom.  

Matty, I enjoyed that post and lots of good information.  I will say, though, that there is a flip side to the "percentages".  This may not be what you are saying but if you become an OF because there are more OF spots, this can work against you, particularly at the college level. 

Very good IF's (of every IF position) who can hit but have someone slightly better in front of them get lumped with the OF group for consideration for the starting OF spots.  So, it is not uncommon for 5 to 8 OF's and 5 or 6 more IF's to all be battling for that OF spot.  On the flip side, you almost never see an OF get moved to C.  If you are very good at C, you are a much more valuable commodity from a defensive standpoint.  If there are three C's, you are only competing with three C's. 

I'm a coach and I won't tell you it's all about ability...  at least not regarding the pitch/catch at the same time issue. This is usually more of an arm care, leg fatigue or throwing mechanics concern than an allowance of a player to take both spots if they have the ability.  (I know that is not what you were referring to)

Good points CabbageDad.  I'm glad you responded because it does seem in my post that I am saying that I wish he had been an outfielder.  That is not the case...I just wish I had encouraged him to take all the fly balls I offered to hit him when he was <14 years old!  He is a very good defensive catcher and has all the intangibles needed for that position.  But, if he had been better at getting a jump on fly balls, he would have played more defense.  He is a team player and did his job at whatever was asked of him.  He just felt it was easier to be a hitter when he was in the game on both sides of the ball.

I completely understand your point about the college level.  All, please take my comments as it relates to HS only.  In my experience, the position a kid plays on his high school team has very little to do with where he fits best at the college level.

Thanks for letting me clarify!

Update:

There are a total of 5 of these "workouts" and the first one was yesterday.  He asked me if he could wear shorts and I said absolutely not. He brought his two bags, dressed in baseball pants, belt, generic shirt and couldn't find a hat to fit hit huge head other than his current team hat so that is what he went with.

I dropped him off and showed up about 20 minutes before the end.  I saw 7 other parents there and about 20-25 kids on the field.  What a hodgepodge!  The thing that shocked me the most though was the high level kids, the ones that play on teams that travel to Ft. Myers and play PG often were in shorts! ALL OF THEM!  I saw one kid playing 2B take a bad hop without a cup on (ouchy), and my kid thank goodness had good judgement when it came time for him to run into a double play at second...he opted to jog into second standing up rather than cleat the kid in the shorts! 

When I got there my son was in LF.  I asked him how he got there he said " Well pitching and catching are next time, and only 3 kids lined up to play outfield, the rest lined up to play infield, so I figured that was my best shot of getting to play more."...........holy crud I KNEW there was a brain in there somewhere!

Maybe the kids wearing shorts down inside information of previously accepted attire. Your son was smart to go to the outfield. He should go to right and show off his arm.