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We're in the middle of my position player 2021 Kid taking 2 months off from throwing and he informs me that they are playing Flag Football in gym class and "can I play Quarterback?"  Lord have mercy.

To answer the OP's question: it should be no throwing, at all, nothing. 

My concern is when is the next time he can take 2 months off from throwing?  Once we start him up again October 15th after two months off, the next opportunity for a break will likely be in late October 2018 after Fall Ball is finished.  

 

Not a fan of this philosophy. Shut down from competitive throwing? Yes. Lighten the load? Sure. A complete shutdown - no throwing? I know of no other athletic activity or motion where this would be considered a good idea. Muscles and proprioception simply don't work like that. I think this notion causes more harm than good.

roothog66 posted:

Not a fan of this philosophy. Shut down from competitive throwing? Yes. Lighten the load? Sure. A complete shutdown - no throwing? I know of no other athletic activity or motion where this would be considered a good idea. Muscles and proprioception simply don't work like that. I think this notion causes more harm than good.

I am not terribly well read when it comes to arm care as it just gets too complicated if you try to understand the underlying science.  That said, the whole complete shutdown approach has always seemed rather extreme.  In basic terms, my understanding is that the break is designed to allow complete healing of all the various micro tears, but I don't really understand how some activities are acceptable (for instance the dual sport kid playing QB) while overhand throwing of a baseball - at any level - is considered unacceptable.  I just cannot believe some level of throwing would totally disrupt whatever healing is supposed to occur.  If the actual protocol had the kid in a sling for 2 months, that would make more sense (i.e. immobile for the duration), but isolating this one motion among all the other allowed motions just doesn't feel like the entire answer.  It sort of feels like an easy, understandable program that has some benefits (certainly keeps the kid from pitching at 100%) but perhaps has some downside.

Has anyone seen any solid analysis of what impact low stress throwing might have on the perceived benefits that stem from a complete shutdown?  Conversely, has any seen any solid analysis on the benefits of continuing low stress throwing?  I am not arguing against the shutdown, just wondering what folks are looking into these days.  Next thing you know, someone will say throwing curveballs at 12yo is not dangerous (oh yea, someone has already said that here).

I believe key factors here are several in making this decision.

#1: What age is the player?

#2: What stage of maturity is the player, physically? 

#3: How many innings have they logged & are there any arm issues currently?

Andrews & several of the other leading surgeons do recommend 2-3 months of ZERO overhand throwing in offseason, particularly for youth players. Mine is a 2021 & we had always adhered to this when he was in heavy growth stages. I think that makes sense with the growth plate issues etc.

He is now at a stage, physically (6'1" 170), where I believe taking a complete shutdown would be a negative. Our Fall season ends in October. After this, we intend to throw 2X / Week moderately, no mound. Some 80% long toss & a little flat ground & work on secondary pitch feel. Play catch & mix in change up grip & spin some. There will be ZERO max effort throwing & certainly no extreme long toss or heavy ball throwing.

Max Scherzer has adopted this type of program after years of trial & error & complaining of the difficulties & soreness that would always flare as you try to crank it back up in the Spring after a complete shut down.

This method keeps the gains you have made during the season & prevents atrophy of the throwing structures WITHOUT significant risk associated with year round pitching or heavy arm use. To me, it is logical to continue to use the throwing structures & maintain strength & stability to be better suited to enter into the Spring as opposed to a complete shut down for those players who are fully, or close to fully developed physically.

Bingo - "None, zero, zip, nada".... 10-12 weeks is phenomenal if you can.  Work backwards from when the season starts, then the couple of weeks when you start throwing a bull pen to ramp up to full speed.  This will help dictate when you should start the shut down so you get max rest.

Suggest you look into a reputable throwing program in your area.  They'll be working key strength and balance in your lower half and back, as well as throwing patterns, so that the player is prime condition by the time he starts to throw. This can be down in addition to the off season strength program - just work in sufficient rest in between all workouts, and avoid doubling up on exercising the same body part.

My totally uneducated and non proven opinion is that for my son (2020) he needs time to not pitch, or do the pitching motion.  Half of his wear and tear is from DEcelerating his arm after he throws.  Going to have the same problem in long toss....it's the same motion and the same deceleration issue.  I plan to shut him down for 2-3 months but during that time do a weighted ball program...his arm won't be moving as fast and my hope is his deceleration muscles will have time to do the healing they need.

Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.

Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.

 Next thing you know, someone will say throwing curveballs at 12yo is not dangerous (oh yea, someone has already said that here).
 

Yeah, I've said that here and everywhere else because every single study done on the subject backs this contention up and not one study has been able to prove the hypothesis that curve balls thrown by youth pitchers lead to an increases in injury rates - not one. That includes ASMI studies done under the direction of Dr. Andrews. However, that's an srgument for another post.

Part of the difficulty or challenge is that the year-round playing of baseball also correlates with . . . um . . . being better at baseball.

We're now seeing northern states producing more D1 players and high draft picks. How are they doing it? By building indoor facilities that enable year round training. And everyone knows about the Dominicans success in baseball, playing year-round (and the Floridians, and Californians, etc.)

The elephant in the room is that the highest, by far, risk factor for TJ is . . . pitching. But Andrews and Cressey can't come out and say "don't pitch." [BTW, I overheard an MLB area scout say about a HS kid who is a two-way player: "with a swing like that, why would you ever get on a mound?" Interesting viewpoint, IMO] 

Steve A. posted:

Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.

Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.

I've been told and read, that the arm is moving much slower, and not in a pitching motion.  He did the program last year and it looked more like shot-putting than pitching, he didn't grip it like a baseball and over half of it was from his knees.  It's not the same.

3and2Fastball posted:

Cressey's examples deal with time off from throwing competitively and throwing programs. I completely agree with it as far as that goes. My own son and my pitchers don't do a throwing program from November 1 until the day after Christmas, but I don't shut them down from light throwing and playing catch - nothing organized as a workout. I definitely wouldn't suggest weighted ball programs in the true "off season." I slowly ramp my kids into a weighted ball program and throwing program for eight weeks scheduled to end the day official high school practices begin. That means starting about Jan 1 where I am. Where I've seen REAL problems at the high school level is with kids coming off of basketball season. If they make the playoffs, I don't get them until basically a week before our first game, they haven't thrown in months and they don't have time to roll  into a pitching routine because the season is so short. 

CaCO3Girl posted:
Steve A. posted:

Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.

Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.

I've been told and read, that the arm is moving much slower, and not in a pitching motion.  He did the program last year and it looked more like shot-putting than pitching, he didn't grip it like a baseball and over half of it was from his knees.  It's not the same.

A good weighted ball program is actual "programming" your arm into correct mechanics, so, while it may not seem the same, the components are very much the same. Also, a good weighted ball program includes underweighted balls as well where - at least theoretically - the arm motions would be faster. Honestly, without the underweight component, you don't get as much out of a weighted ball program.

Steve A. posted:

Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.

Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.

The initial part of the shutdown is complete rest, then they phase in weighted balls, which are thrown into a net close to you along with a crow hop... I don't think they get full extension on the throw...  I'm sure a few others know more about the protocol. 

I get the disconnect...

roothog66 posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

Cressey's examples deal with time off from throwing competitively and throwing programs. I completely agree with it as far as that goes. My own son and my pitchers don't do a throwing program from November 1 until the day after Christmas, but I don't shut them down from light throwing and playing catch - nothing organized as a workout. I definitely wouldn't suggest weighted ball programs in the true "off season." I slowly ramp my kids into a weighted ball program and throwing program for eight weeks scheduled to end the day official high school practices begin. That means starting about Jan 1 where I am. Where I've seen REAL problems at the high school level is with kids coming off of basketball season. If they make the playoffs, I don't get them until basically a week before our first game, they haven't thrown in months and they don't have time to roll  into a pitching routine because the season is so short. 

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. HS practice begins 1/15/18.  His "shutdown" is 10/1/17-1/1/18. The weighted ball program was about 6 weeks long last year and brought him to right before Christmas. After Christmas was the ramp up, with him near 100% by HS tryouts.

He's also playing basketball for the high school, so we are trying to avoid the other scenario you mentioned.

3and2Fastball posted:

I've never been impressed with the logic that Andrews uses. For years, he preached the whole "don't throw a breaking ball until you shave" advise. His logic was that the forces on the elbow were greater and, thus, injury risk was greater. This was a logical conclusion based on a good understanding of anatomy. However, when his own organization started with this hypothesis and, as scientific theories are correctly tested, did a 10 year study and published the results, they had to come to the conclusion that it was not proven that curve balls (self-reported, so this includes ANY mechanics used) resulted in any greater injury risk than fast balls. However, he continues to preach the notion that youth pitchers shouldn't throw curves, but his logic changed. He now cites his reasoning as one of efficiency. In a way it makes sense. His theory is that pitchers who throw curves at younger ages have greater success and, because of this success, are relied on more by their coaches and are, therefore, more prone to overuse. I mean, it does make some sense in a weird sort of way. Personally, I think if there is an argument to be made for holding off on the curve, Boddy has the better arguments and they have nothing to do with injury rates or overuse.

The other logic problem with Andrews (and a LOT of other people) is the thinking behind increased injury rates. The problem is that it starts with a flawed premise. There may or may not be a recent increase in ucl injuries, but using the number of surgeries as the sole evidence behind the contention is simply ludicrous. Yes, there are more surgeries than in past years and they are being done on younger kids than ever before, but is this truly an indication that there are more injuries or just an indication that we resort to surgery more than in the past? 

10-20 years ago, pitchers pitched through a ucl tear far longer than today before resorting to surgery. As to youth pitcher? How often would ANYONE even consider TJ surgery on a 13yo in 1995 even if they had torn the ucl? First, it's unlikely they ever would have even SEEN a surgeon. Most likely you would take your kid to his pediatrician, put some ice on it, pitched until the pain got too bad and eventually just stopped pitching. Bottom line is that we will never really know if injury rates have increased, especially among kids, because the data isn't available. I'm sure to an orthos surgeon it seems like injuries are on the rise because they have more patients and I think that's a good thing because now we pay attention to these injuries and don't just write kids off. 

The only long term indicator we can look at is MLB DL lists. In fact, though, time on the disabled list for arm injuries, as measured in days, has steadily decreased for years. However, that may just be more proof that recovery time, due to increased use in surgery as an earlier treatment option, has compacted. We are still in an era where at the pro level we can try and blame injuries on too many pitches when they were younger. In ten years, though, if, despite all the pitch count rules and emphasis on recovery and decreasing throwing regiments, injury rates (or surgery rates since it will in the future be a better indicator of injury than today) increase or remain steady, we may have to readjust our thinking. Don't forget, there was a time not so long ago when the scientific opinion was pretty set that the curve itself was simply an optical illusion.

Picked Off posted:

To me, it's just common sense. They do it in the pros on mature arms, so why wouldn't you do the same for youths. My sons youth PC would demand a shut down from pitching. College coaches set limits on pitches and innings thrown. 

Go play another sport or work on academics. 

 

I don't think anyone disagrees with a shutdown on pitching. The question is all overhead throwing

We are also learning more as the art of pitching enters a long overdue scientific age. Guys like KB are destroying a lot of age old concepts we all took as absolute truths. I think the impact of curve balls is one, but it won't shake long-held impressions for quite a while. I'll give you another one. Flat ground throwing vs. throwing from a mound. New research (mainly Driveline) is cutting through what we have long held as an absolute truth - that flat ground throwing isn't as stressful on the arm as throwing from a mound. It appears that just simply isn't true.

roothog66 posted:
Picked Off posted:

To me, it's just common sense. They do it in the pros on mature arms, so why wouldn't you do the same for youths. My sons youth PC would demand a shut down from pitching. College coaches set limits on pitches and innings thrown. 

Go play another sport or work on academics. 

 

I don't think anyone disagrees with a shutdown on pitching. The question is all overhead throwing

Agree. The danger is continuous MAX EFFORT overhand throwing. How many catchers have TJ & these guys are throwing every pitch back to the pitcher 5X a week all season? The difference is in the MAX EFFORT. Refrain from max effort throwing in the offseason either off the mound or long toss but not necessary to shut down completely unless you fear mental fatigue or the player is youth level.

Plus, everyone is different & there is no universal answer to this question for all players. That is part of the difficulty. 

Here's another example of why I take anything Andrews says with a grain of salt:

"Dr. Andrews actually said that kids throwing harder than 85 miles per hour in high school are going beyond the "developmental properties" of the human body at that age and that going over that is a major risk factor." How would he possibly come up with that number? The problem is that when someone when his credentials makes comments, it's hard to shift out what he's actually basing on scientific study and knowledge and what's simple speculation biased with a slant toward low-risk evaluation. Someone said it earlier, but throwing is bad on the arm, period. Andrews emphasis is on the risk side rather than the reward side and understandably so. His job isn't to build big league pitchers. His job is just to fix the damage, so he's naturally going to be on the low risk side of the equation.

 

 

Steve A. posted:
roothog66 posted:
Picked Off posted:

To me, it's just common sense. They do it in the pros on mature arms, so why wouldn't you do the same for youths. My sons youth PC would demand a shut down from pitching. College coaches set limits on pitches and innings thrown. 

Go play another sport or work on academics. 

 

I don't think anyone disagrees with a shutdown on pitching. The question is all overhead throwing

Agree. The danger is continuous MAX EFFORT overhand throwing. How many catchers have TJ & these guys are throwing every pitch back to the pitcher 5X a week all season? The difference is in the MAX EFFORT. Refrain from max effort throwing in the offseason either off the mound or long toss but not necessary to shut down completely unless you fear mental fatigue or the player is youth level.

Plus, everyone is different & there is no universal answer to this question for all players. That is part of the difficulty. 

It's easy to overlook the genetic factor because it's so hard to quantify into something we can control. The simple fact is there are always going to be freaks like Nolan Ryan who could throw 150-200 pitches a game for years without damage and guys who, no matter how much you emphasize arm care and limits are just not going to be able to avoid injury.

No question. Mechanics, genetics, conditioning, volume of throwing. So many variables.

What is impossible to argue, however, is that throwing a baseball with max effort repeatedly, on a regular basis, is much more likely to result in arm injury than throwing a baseball with moderate effort repeatedly, on a regular basis. This is simply a fact.

So therefore, if you reduce the MAX EFFORT in the equation during the "offseason, or down time" this should logically = less chance of injury. 

So, therefore, launching heavy objects at max effort into nets in the offseason DOES NOT = Less Injury. Launching heavy objects into nets into the offseason = more opportunity for injury. Max Effort being key in the above.

 

Kyle Boddy has an interesting take: 

www.drivelinebaseball.com/2012...aining-is-the-devil/

"Here is how I approach training youth pitchers (13+ years old):

1. Very little – if any – pitching off a mound during the winter months. Completely avoiding pitching off a mound for 4+ months is strongly preferred.
2. Pitchers should be on a regimented and structured throwing program year-round, including winter training. Pitchers should prioritize deceleration training in the off-season.
3. If pitchers want to take time off from throwing, it should be for psychological reasons, not for any perceived physical benefit. Time off should not exceed four weeks.
4. The intelligent use of radar guns to track progress and to diagnose mechanical flaws with weighted baseballs is encouraged.

*                 *            *           *

However, the idea that you will get better at throwing a baseball by not throwing a baseball is insane."

roothog66 posted:

As an experiment. How many on here over the age of, let's say 40, had an arm injury as a youth or high school pitcher? If so, did you ever visit a doctor about it? If so, what was the prescribed treatment? And, did anyone ever follow that up with a trip to a specialist?

Played all through HS, arm always hurt (as a position player)... Never saw a Dr, it took a 25 year shutting down of the arm to get it fully rested.  I finally developed the proper throwing motion after watching my boys instructors - never hurts, even after long toss or BP sessions.  Gotta watch out for that word never...

roothog66 posted:

Here's another example of why I take anything Andrews says with a grain of salt:

"Dr. Andrews actually said that kids throwing harder than 85 miles per hour in high school are going beyond the "developmental properties" of the human body at that age and that going over that is a major risk factor." How would he possibly come up with that number? The problem is that when someone when his credentials makes comments, it's hard to shift out what he's actually basing on scientific study and knowledge and what's simple speculation biased with a slant toward low-risk evaluation. Someone said it earlier, but throwing is bad on the arm, period. Andrews emphasis is on the risk side rather than the reward side and understandably so. His job isn't to build big league pitchers. His job is just to fix the damage, so he's naturally going to be on the low risk side of the equation.

 

 

I read his study.  He came up with that number by testing stress on cadaver arms.  Supposedly, a "normal" person can only handle the stress of pitching 85mph without it breaking, or being severely damaged. 

The thing that always bugged me with that assertion though is that it is SOOO obvious that players who throw over that are genetically unique. They aren't the norm.  We have said on here a thousand times that you can't train kids to throw as hard as they do today.  All the training in the world won't work unless the genetics are there to back it up.

There is a LHP senior in my son's high school that wants to pitch at the next level SOOO bad. He does strength training, weekly pitching lessons, he's about 5'11 200#'s, he wants it so much, but he's only hitting around 75.  It's obvious his genetics just aren't there.

More kids nationwide are throwing year round

Kids are throwing 90+ at younger & younger ages

We are seeing a huge increase in Tommy John surgeries for teenagers

It blows my mind that some people might think that taking 2-3 months off from throwing could be detrimental to arm health.  Is that really the case?  Or is the problem with taking 2-3 months from throwing that it can potentially slow down development?

3and2Fastball posted:

More kids nationwide are throwing year round

Kids are throwing 90+ at younger & younger ages

We are seeing a huge increase in Tommy John surgeries for teenagers

It blows my mind that some people might think that taking 2-3 months off from throwing could be detrimental to arm health.  Is that really the case?  Or is the problem with taking 2-3 months from throwing that it can potentially slow down development?

Here is the problem. These velocity camps & the increased training actually works to increase velocity. This is obvious. More high velocity throwers at all levels than ever before. There is such pressure & a chase now for velo that patience is set aside & youth injury has spiked tremendously. 

Steve A. posted:

No question. Mechanics, genetics, conditioning, volume of throwing. So many variables.

What is impossible to argue, however, is that throwing a baseball with max effort repeatedly, on a regular basis, is much more likely to result in arm injury than throwing a baseball with moderate effort repeatedly, on a regular basis. This is simply a fact.

So therefore, if you reduce the MAX EFFORT in the equation during the "offseason, or down time" this should logically = less chance of injury. 

So, therefore, launching heavy objects at max effort into nets in the offseason DOES NOT = Less Injury. Launching heavy objects into nets into the offseason = more opportunity for injury. Max Effort being key in the above.

 

There is only so far you can go with "max effort".  Trust me when I say my son's pitching "max effort" can't come close to what he does from his knees, into a net, with a weighted ball.  And I say again, it's NOT a pitching motion where he can gather momentum, it's more like shot putting.

CaCO3Girl posted:
Steve A. posted:

No question. Mechanics, genetics, conditioning, volume of throwing. So many variables.

What is impossible to argue, however, is that throwing a baseball with max effort repeatedly, on a regular basis, is much more likely to result in arm injury than throwing a baseball with moderate effort repeatedly, on a regular basis. This is simply a fact.

So therefore, if you reduce the MAX EFFORT in the equation during the "offseason, or down time" this should logically = less chance of injury. 

So, therefore, launching heavy objects at max effort into nets in the offseason DOES NOT = Less Injury. Launching heavy objects into nets into the offseason = more opportunity for injury. Max Effort being key in the above.

 

There is only so far you can go with "max effort".  Trust me when I say my son's pitching "max effort" can't come close to what he does from his knees, into a net, with a weighted ball.  And I say again, it's NOT a pitching motion where he can gather momentum, it's more like shot putting.

Totally get it. Sounds like it is a rational approach. I just have seen crazy winter programs in my area & I am sure it is not exclusive to where I am located.

I do not have it figured out by any stretch & that is why I am here. To gain insight into how others like yourself who are students of the process are approaching it & maybe we can help each other in our common goals to make our kids experience as positive as it can be.

Steve A. posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

More kids nationwide are throwing year round

Kids are throwing 90+ at younger & younger ages

We are seeing a huge increase in Tommy John surgeries for teenagers

It blows my mind that some people might think that taking 2-3 months off from throwing could be detrimental to arm health.  Is that really the case?  Or is the problem with taking 2-3 months from throwing that it can potentially slow down development?

Here is the problem. These velocity camps & the increased training actually works to increase velocity. This is obvious. More high velocity throwers at all levels than ever before. There is such pressure & a chase now for velo that patience is set aside & youth injury has spiked tremendously. 

"Survival of the Fittest" is somewhat inevitable in all sports.  But it appears that we as a Baseball Industry have taken that to a whole new level when it comes to arm health.

We need to understand, we come to this website as parents, but the Baseball Industry ultimately views our kids as commodities.  "Oh, you got hurt? That's too bad.  Well, go get surgery."  Meanwhile there are dozens of others throwing just as hard ready to take your place.

In order to achieve anything in sports you have to push to a level very close to your genetic potential to reach your goals, and that increases the potential for injury, I get that.  

I just don't see how taking 2-3 months off completely from throwing can be anything but good for your longterm health, and whatever limits that puts on how quickly you develop is very much negated by being healthier.

3and2Fastball posted:

More kids nationwide are throwing year round

Kids are throwing 90+ at younger & younger ages

We are seeing a huge increase in Tommy John surgeries for teenagers

It blows my mind that some people might think that taking 2-3 months off from throwing could be detrimental to arm health.  Is that really the case?  Or is the problem with taking 2-3 months from throwing that it can potentially slow down development?

Yes, we are seeing an increase in TJ surgeries for teenagers, but to assume this correlates with an increase in actual injuries is a logical fallacy. An increase in the number of surgeries on teenagers only means that more teenagers are undergoing surgery for an injury that, in the past, wasn't treated with surgery. 

I like to use this example. From 1969 to 1986, artificial hearts were implanted in approximately 100 cases. IN 1986, the Jarvik-7 greatly increased the use of such devices and by 2010, there were some 1300 implants. Now, does this mean heart disease has increased by 1 million percent? NO, of course not. It simply means that the way we treat heart disease has changed an a particular surgery that was once reserved for only the most desperate of cases is now routine. Same with TJ. Rates of TJ surgery are going up because 1) it's now a more accepted surgery at all ages, 2) a LOT more doctors now have the expertise necessary to use the procedure, 3) the results have been good enough to convince doctors to go the surgical route with patients they would not have deemed surgery cases in the past, and 4) we get our young pitchers medical help much quicker than in the past.

Now, none of this proves that injury rates aren't on the increase with teem pitchers. However, it shows very viable factors affecting the increase in the number of surgeries that don't depend on an injury rate increase.

CaCO3Girl posted:
roothog66 posted:

Here's another example of why I take anything Andrews says with a grain of salt:

"Dr. Andrews actually said that kids throwing harder than 85 miles per hour in high school are going beyond the "developmental properties" of the human body at that age and that going over that is a major risk factor." How would he possibly come up with that number? The problem is that when someone when his credentials makes comments, it's hard to shift out what he's actually basing on scientific study and knowledge and what's simple speculation biased with a slant toward low-risk evaluation. Someone said it earlier, but throwing is bad on the arm, period. Andrews emphasis is on the risk side rather than the reward side and understandably so. His job isn't to build big league pitchers. His job is just to fix the damage, so he's naturally going to be on the low risk side of the equation.

 

 

I read his study.  He came up with that number by testing stress on cadaver arms.  Supposedly, a "normal" person can only handle the stress of pitching 85mph without it breaking, or being severely damaged. 

The thing that always bugged me with that assertion though is that it is SOOO obvious that players who throw over that are genetically unique. They aren't the norm.  We have said on here a thousand times that you can't train kids to throw as hard as they do today.  All the training in the world won't work unless the genetics are there to back it up.

There is a LHP senior in my son's high school that wants to pitch at the next level SOOO bad. He does strength training, weekly pitching lessons, he's about 5'11 200#'s, he wants it so much, but he's only hitting around 75.  It's obvious his genetics just aren't there.

I originally addressed the cadaver study in the previous post, but withdrew it because it's difficult to quickly explain. However, most researchers agree that this test on the ucl's of cadavers is useless because of factors it didn't take into account. What it basically found was that, if you don't take into account genetic differences in bone and muscle structure and focus solely on tensile strength of ucl's, you get a calculation that shows that, generally, every kids arm should basically fall off his body when his fastball reaches 81 mph. This, of course, does not and cannot, take into account supporting muscles and the stress affect variances of different mechanical models. In other words, there are thousands of important factors this test ignores. 

roothog66 posted:

As an experiment. How many on here over the age of, let's say 40, had an arm injury as a youth or high school pitcher? If so, did you ever visit a doctor about it? If so, what was the prescribed treatment? And, did anyone ever follow that up with a trip to a specialist?

This times 100...  No one ever went to the doctor for a sore arm.  You just fought through it until the season ended.  Ice and aspirin.  Plus Icy Hot.  Lots of icy hot.  Every team I ever played on had a gallon of the stuff to help you get through a game.  

Granted a BIG difference was that you played the spring season and legion ball than you were done until next spring.  

Obviously a very hot topic that has coaches at the highest levels on different sides of the fence. I will keep my opinion to myself as it is nothing more then an opinion based on the coaches I follow and trust. However, I have learned a lot about the mental side of the game over the last couple of months and different ways to practice the mental side of the game without ever throwing. I would highly recommend that everyone, and especially those who believe in taking time off, read anything and everything you can find by Brian Cain. Great stuff!

There is no question that arm injuries are at an exponential increase compared to 20-30 years ago. I get it in that what surgeons do is: they perform surgery. This is how they get paid. However, I happen to know a former DIv 1 coach who was in charge for 17 years at a prominent South East school ending in the 90's. Guess how many arm blow outs he had???? Zero. Zero in 17 years. Had numerous Big League pitchers from his school.

My own experience was similar. Pitched Div . Graduated in 88'. Zero arm injuries on our entire staff that I can recall in those 4 years. Zero. Pitched in Pro Ball thru mid 90's. I can certainly recall some guys with arm trouble who were shut down but nowhere near what we see today. I'm sorry but its just not close. Guys are throwing, on average, with way higher velocity now & as a result the spike in traumatic arm injury. 

3and2Fastball posted:

Genetics is a huge factor in all athletic achievements, absolutely.  However are we to believe that the current generation is genetically superior to every generation that came before them?  More pitchers than ever are throwing 95+

I believe it is the training that is taking players who could throw 85-90 to 95+ ... 

 I think training is THE factor in why we're seeing so much velocity increase rather than some idea that kids are simply throwing with more intent than in the past because someone stuck a radar gun out there. The fact is there are works in play with the body that limit velocity based on structural abilities and training has somewhat overcome genetics in this field. What I mean to say is that more bodies are being developed that can withstand 90+mph velocities. It's no different than any other athletic endeavor. Athletes get bigger, stronger, and faster over time. 

I actually think the way we train and develop athletes now makes for a lot more guys throwing heat being able to last long enough to reach high levels of pro ball where in the past, genetics would have taken over and they would have been physically out of the game due to injury during their teen years or before.

I just don't see how taking 2-3 months off completely from throwing can be anything but good for your longterm health, and whatever limits that puts on how quickly you develop is very much negated by being healthier.

I would largely agree with this statement but with some assumptions.  Assuming you want to throw 100% during the season - and throw harder than last season - you need for your arm to be in top shape from any number of aspects.  Taking off 2-3 months will reduce wear and tear, but something must be done to maintain, or re-establish - full arm strength to include numerous muscles in the arm, shoulder, back, etc.  If you take time off and don't have a really good program to ramp back up, then you can be more prone to injury.  It sounds simple, but throwing a baseball is probably one of the most efficient method of strengthening many of those muscles.  

I do think more kids' arms are getting hurt these days.  Go watch low level 12yo travel ball.  Most of the kids don't really need to be playing travel ball - they need to be practicing.  However, they are out there battling.  The top pitcher is usually some kid who can throw the ball harder than the other 10 kids and the team relies on this kid to win games.  The kid loves it and thinks of himself as a pitcher.  Who knows - maybe Daddy is in the dugout.  Weekend tournament with 5-6 games.  The team has a little success and Little Timmy gets his share of time on the mound both days.  When not on the mound, he's probably playing SS as he can actually get the ball to 1B without a hop.  Daddy's really proud.

Steve A. posted:

There is no question that arm injuries are at an exponential increase compared to 20-30 years ago. I get it in that what surgeons do is: they perform surgery. This is how they get paid. However, I happen to know a former DIv 1 coach who was in charge for 17 years at a prominent South East school ending in the 90's. Guess how many arm blow outs he had???? Zero. Zero in 17 years. Had numerous Big League pitchers from his school.

My own experience was similar. Pitched Div . Graduated in 88'. Zero arm injuries on our entire staff that I can recall in those 4 years. Zero. Pitched in Pro Ball thru mid 90's. I can certainly recall some guys with arm trouble who were shut down but nowhere near what we see today. I'm sorry but its just not close. Guys are throwing, on average, with way higher velocity now & as a result the spike in traumatic arm injury. 

Edit - I believe your experience and the coaches experience is true, but I don't believe that experience supports an exponential increase in arm injury.

I believe this to be true, but at the time how did one define arm injury?  I have second hand knowledge from multiple college programs in that era that if you wanted to play you didn't speak about a sore arm.  There was no fix.  So what would happen?  The player would simply stop performing at his peak and get less innings to the point where he was done with baseball.  No injury reported.  It becomes a survival of the fittest.  Those genetically gifted to perform at those levels without injury moved on.  Those that were not simply moved to the bottom of the rotation until they rotated out of baseball.  No injury ever reported.   

Last edited by real green
real green posted:
Steve A. posted:

There is no question that arm injuries are at an exponential increase compared to 20-30 years ago. I get it in that what surgeons do is: they perform surgery. This is how they get paid. However, I happen to know a former DIv 1 coach who was in charge for 17 years at a prominent South East school ending in the 90's. Guess how many arm blow outs he had???? Zero. Zero in 17 years. Had numerous Big League pitchers from his school.

My own experience was similar. Pitched Div . Graduated in 88'. Zero arm injuries on our entire staff that I can recall in those 4 years. Zero. Pitched in Pro Ball thru mid 90's. I can certainly recall some guys with arm trouble who were shut down but nowhere near what we see today. I'm sorry but its just not close. Guys are throwing, on average, with way higher velocity now & as a result the spike in traumatic arm injury. 

Edit - I believe your experience and the coaches experience is true, but I don't believe that experience supports an exponential increase in arm injury.

I believe this to be true, but at the time how did one define arm injury?  I have second hand knowledge from multiple college programs in that era that if you wanted to play you didn't speak about a sore arm.  There was no fix.  So what would happen?  The player would simply stop performing at his peak and get less innings to the point where he was done with baseball.  No injury reported.  It becomes a survival of the fittest.  Those genetically gifted to perform at those levels without injury moved on.  Those that were not simply moved to the bottom of the rotation until they rotated out of baseball.  No injury ever reported.   

I'm not saying this is inaccurate but it was simply not my experience. If you blow out your UCL or your Rotator, there is not enough aspirin or Ben Gay in Texas to get you to post your next start & be in the zip code of effective. So, the notion that there were a fleet of guys grinding out UCL & Rotator tears & slowly transitioning out of the game seems a bit difficult for me to believe.

Maybe legion ball or HS ball flipping it up there, but 1 dose of that at a Higher College level or in Pro Ball & case closed, you are done. I understand the data was not tracked like now & it certainly did happen (my Dad, without question, blew his UCL in 1964). Never had surgery, was not an option then.

4T2 posted:

OK, I do understand that a long, restful break is essential for arm health. What I can't seem to find solid information on is the meaning of "shutting down" the arm. Is this zero throwing for 2-3 months? Is it just no pitching? What about long-toss?

-42

I think at the very minimum there should be six weeks without any throwing but ideally it is 2 plus months. Also at least another month of not pitching in games after you start touching a ball again.

That doesn't mean you do  nothing, get strong with eating and heavy lifting (avoid overhead stuff) and also do  lower body expressiveness stuff. Then slowly ramp up intensity again starting with slow throwing and increasing gradually and maybe do weighted balls with it.

roothog66 posted:

Not a fan of this philosophy. Shut down from competitive throwing? Yes. Lighten the load? Sure. A complete shutdown - no throwing? I know of no other athletic activity or motion where this would be considered a good idea. Muscles and proprioception simply don't work like that. I think this notion causes more harm than good.

Other activities aren't as harmfull as throwing,every pitcher gets hurt or is at least having pain with no exception. Throwing is not a healthy activity and causes inflammation in the arm.

 

Now I think you could do just 4 weeks off and then 4 weeks throwing 45 mph and it would give the arm the same kind of recuperation but who really throws that soft for a month when he can throw 80?

Now if the kid has the discipline to do it go for it but most kids will probably throw harder soon.

Last edited by Dominik85

Btw I think that part of why tj is up is that there is better diagnostics and more surgeons but still most evidence does point towards tj being up and harder and year round pitching being the biggest  factor.

You can always try to interpret the studies your way and everyone thinks he is smarter than the system - until the kid gets hurt. Everybody thinks just a little more goes and then the arm breaks. Andrews reaearch might not be perfect but I would be wary of using bro science to justify  erring on the risky side. Better to err on the conservative side.

Dominik85 posted:

Btw I think that part of why tj is up is that there is better diagnostics and more surgeons but still most evidence does point towards tj being up and harder and year round pitching being the biggest  factor.

You can always try to interpret the studies your way and everyone thinks he is smarter than the system - until the kid gets hurt. Everybody thinks just a little more goes and then the arm breaks. Andrews reaearch might not be perfect but I would be wary of using bro science to justify  erring on the risky side. Better to err on the conservative side.

Gotta ask - what evidence are you talking about that points towards those factors being the culprit? I'm also not familiar with the term "bro science" but I'm sure guys like Dr. Andrews, Dr. Fleisig, Dr. Niessen, and Kyle Boddy probably don't categorize their work as "bro science." Just a guess.

Andrews and fleisig both recommend shutting down and cite overuse as the main risk.their science is not 100 percent conclusive but conclusive enough that it has to be considered as the current gold standard. There are plenty of studies on overuse out there. They are not proving it 100 percent but are enough that the burden of evidence has probably shifted to the other side.

There simply currently isn't a good reason to believe that andrews and fleisig have done wrong with their recommendation to shut down.

 

That doesn't mean there isn't a better protocol out there I actually would prefer a month off and then another month at 50-60 percent intesity but propagating it would not be correct until it has been tested.

Currently 2-3 months off is simply the gold standard even though the evidence is low as there hasnt been anything better being proven yet unfortunately. 

 

But anything else out there is N=1 type of science so the common sense is sticking with Andrews and fleisigs recommendation.

2019Dad posted:
Dominik85 posted:
every pitcher gets hurt or is at least having pain with no exception.
 

Every pitcher is having pain? Are you talking MLB? That certainly is not the case with 16-18 year olds.

I think at some point all our kids who pitch have had pain of some sort.  Perhaps they call it "soreness" or "stiffness", but it is a pain receptor firing.  

Steve A. posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:
Steve A. posted:

No question. Mechanics, genetics, conditioning, volume of throwing. So many variables.

What is impossible to argue, however, is that throwing a baseball with max effort repeatedly, on a regular basis, is much more likely to result in arm injury than throwing a baseball with moderate effort repeatedly, on a regular basis. This is simply a fact.

So therefore, if you reduce the MAX EFFORT in the equation during the "offseason, or down time" this should logically = less chance of injury. 

So, therefore, launching heavy objects at max effort into nets in the offseason DOES NOT = Less Injury. Launching heavy objects into nets into the offseason = more opportunity for injury. Max Effort being key in the above.

 

There is only so far you can go with "max effort".  Trust me when I say my son's pitching "max effort" can't come close to what he does from his knees, into a net, with a weighted ball.  And I say again, it's NOT a pitching motion where he can gather momentum, it's more like shot putting.

Totally get it. Sounds like it is a rational approach. I just have seen crazy winter programs in my area & I am sure it is not exclusive to where I am located.

I do not have it figured out by any stretch & that is why I am here. To gain insight into how others like yourself who are students of the process are approaching it & maybe we can help each other in our common goals to make our kids experience as positive as it can be.

Steve, you're not alone with how your viewing this... Try to get educated with the programs, their hypothesis, their results, their plan.  YOU have to be comfortable with what your son is learning.  A very key thing which is a contributor to injuries from all of the advanced techniques is the "actual throwing protocols".  When the players are taught heavy ball or bands, there is a specific way the training has to be done, or the player is exposing himself to unnecessary risk.  Off season protocols with each program, ensuring proper balanced strength (all the muscles in the back, all it takes is one group to weak and throws off the kinetic chain), pre throwing and post throwing routines.  

I certainly didn't mean to incite a riot with my original question, but I truly appreciate the various perspectives. From the scientifically-based to the empirically-based, I appreciate them all. It seems as though science supports a shut-down, but genetics can "trump" that to some degree (as evidenced by those that skip the shut-down, develop faster, and don't get hurt). Seems like a risk, unless one is awfully certain his kid's arm has that magic genetic advantage. I'll be shutting him down and focusing on other areas of development, personally.

A follow-up question, which was actually 50% of the reason I asked in the first place: how do you manage timing of the shut-down? Many advocate fall-ball, many also advocate attending college camps/showcases in the fall/winter. HS baseball starts up in January...I don't see a 8+ week span in my calendar that accommodates the other activities. How do you shut down, but then perform at a showcase/camp? Am I missing a month in my calendar that you guys all have?

-42

4T2 posted:

I certainly didn't mean to incite a riot with my original question, but I truly appreciate the various perspectives. From the scientifically-based to the empirically-based, I appreciate them all. It seems as though science supports a shut-down, but genetics can "trump" that to some degree (as evidenced by those that skip the shut-down, develop faster, and don't get hurt). Seems like a risk, unless one is awfully certain his kid's arm has that magic genetic advantage. I'll be shutting him down and focusing on other areas of development, personally.

A follow-up question, which was actually 50% of the reason I asked in the first place: how do you manage timing of the shut-down? Many advocate fall-ball, many also advocate attending college camps/showcases in the fall/winter. HS baseball starts up in January...I don't see a 8+ week span in my calendar that accommodates the other activities. How do you shut down, but then perform at a showcase/camp? Am I missing a month in my calendar that you guys all have?

-42

My son shut down for late July & August, started playing baseball again in September, and also started an eight-week throwing program in September. He'll start pitching from a mound again in November, but in the meantime he is just playing as a position player. It certainly complicates things from a recruiting perspective but, like you, it is difficult to find a time to shut down.

Youth pitchers should shut down, I think that we all understand that is what is the protocol. Shutting down isn't always about giving the arm a rest, but rather other parts of the body as well.

I believe that Dominik brings a valid point, most pitchers at some point in their careers experience some type of major injury, and there is an expression among those that log a lot of innings, "my arms is hanging to the ground".   ML pitchers don't pitch in the off season. College pitchers that play summer ball shut down for fall practice.

If this is true why would a youth pitcher, whose body isn't developed play all year?

Weighted ball programs are not for everyone. All pitchers, including youth pitchers should have a baseline evaluation.  And the evaluation should be by a qualified pitching coach.

JMO

 

TPM posted:

ML pitchers don't pitch in the off season. College pitchers that play summer ball shut down for fall practice.

If this is true why would a youth pitcher, whose body isn't developed play all year?

 

Kyle's blog post (www.drivelinebaseball.com/2012...aining-is-the-devil/) touched on this topic, and had an interesting perspective, IMO:

"GREAT ADVICE FOR PROFESSIONALS, TERRIBLE ADVICE FOR AMATEURS

Yeah, Justin Verlander and Felix Hernandez should probably take plenty of time off in the off-season because they threw 200+ innings, plus tons of side work, plus their legendary training programs, plus spring training, plus… well, you get the point. However, you aren’t Justin Verlander.

Justin Verlander

Is this you? I thought not.

However, amateur pitchers have numerous mechanical flaws, lack of fitness in their pitching arm, and throw maybe 40-50 innings per year. There is plenty left in the tank for them to hit the weights hard and throw a few times per week to improve throwing mechanics, proprioceptive sense, and body awareness."

I have to say, I respect Kyle a ton and am a big fan of his work, but I really think that is just insane to have youth pitchers throw year round without a break.  If anything, their arms are overused well beyond what a pro pitcher goes through.  After they pitch they usually play a defensive position the rest of a tournament, they throw an incredible amount over the course of a weekend between warmups, playing a position, pitching, then back to playing a position etc.... Sure some are PO's but most are not.... Factor in that their growth plates haven't closed, their mechanics aren't top notch, they are still growing which throws mechanics off even more

I think it is just insane, and doubt there is any data to back that up.  It is theoretical, and theoretical is a big roll of the dice.

3and2Fastball posted:

I have to say, I respect Kyle a ton and am a big fan of his work, but I really think that is just insane to have youth pitchers throw year round without a break.  If anything, their arms are overused well beyond what a pro pitcher goes through.  After they pitch they usually play a defensive position the rest of a tournament, they throw an incredible amount over the course of a weekend between warmups, playing a position, pitching, then back to playing a position etc.... Sure some are PO's but most are not.... Factor in that their growth plates haven't closed, their mechanics aren't top notch, they are still growing which throws mechanics off even more

I think it is just insane, and doubt there is any data to back that up.  It is theoretical, and theoretical is a big roll of the dice.

Fair, but keep in mind he is talking 13+, not 10, 11, 12

TPM posted:

I think KB's philosophy is more about working in the gym to get stronger and better, learn, rather than be in competition all year round.

Absolutely, and in a perfect world, if Coaches held to the ideals that Driveline frequently proposes (strict pitch counts, practicing more than competing, not playing SS/3B after pitching in the same weekend etc) that'd be different.  But in reality most of those kids are abused at tournaments, pitch way too much and their arms need a break...

I believe that every young pitcher should take at least two months off of competitive throwing.  However, people need to understand that it doesn't have to be the same two or three months for everyone.  But for most it will be in the end of July to beginning of February time frame. In other words within those 6 months. 

Everyone should understand that pitching has risk involved.  You cannot eliminate risk, but you can do things that will help.  High velocity is a problem and can create additional risk.  However in many cases high velocity gets the biggest rewards.  Risk Reward, too much risk might create injury.  No risk = No reward.

Probably still too early to call, but it looks like PitchSmart and HS Association pitch rules are helping to eliminate a lot of abuse. I think we only had one or two violations of the pitchsmart rules all year.  We are talking about thousands and thousands of games.

2019Dad posted:
TPM posted:

ML pitchers don't pitch in the off season. College pitchers that play summer ball shut down for fall practice.

If this is true why would a youth pitcher, whose body isn't developed play all year?

 

Kyle's blog post (www.drivelinebaseball.com/2012...aining-is-the-devil/) touched on this topic, and had an interesting perspective, IMO:

"GREAT ADVICE FOR PROFESSIONALS, TERRIBLE ADVICE FOR AMATEURS

Yeah, Justin Verlander and Felix Hernandez should probably take plenty of time off in the off-season because they threw 200+ innings, plus tons of side work, plus their legendary training programs, plus spring training, plus… well, you get the point. However, you aren’t Justin Verlander.

Justin Verlander

Is this you? I thought not.

However, amateur pitchers have numerous mechanical flaws, lack of fitness in their pitching arm, and throw maybe 40-50 innings per year. There is plenty left in the tank for them to hit the weights hard and throw a few times per week to improve throwing mechanics, proprioceptive sense, and body awareness."

You have to consider that kyle hates youth select ball at least according to his tweets. His post probably describes kids who mostly play rec for like six months a year.

I'm sure he would recommend off time for players who play from february till November in travel, school and showcase teams, espec two way players.

But a kid who just plays LL or  HS and then shuts down competitive pitching for 5 months probably is fine taking two weeks off and then continue light throwing.

PGStaff posted:

I believe that every young pitcher should take at least two months off of competitive throwing.  However, people need to understand that it doesn't have to be the same two or three months for everyone.  But for most it will be in the end of July to beginning of February time frame. In other words within those 6 months. 

Everyone should understand that pitching has risk involved.  You cannot eliminate risk, but you can do things that will help.  High velocity is a problem and can create additional risk.  However in many cases high velocity gets the biggest rewards.  Risk Reward, too much risk might create injury.  No risk = No reward.

Probably still too early to call, but it looks like PitchSmart and HS Association pitch rules are helping to eliminate a lot of abuse. I think we only had one or two violations of the pitchsmart rules all year.  We are talking about thousands and thousands of games.

Pitchsmart is being followed but  do wish the daily limits were set lower for the young kids.  Pitchsmart is SOOO careful in saying anything over 20 pitches needs a full day rest, but then let's a 13 year old  throw 95 pitches in one game and an 11 year old throw 85 pitches?  OUCH!  My son's JV Coach in High School said "You will never throw over 80 pitches in a game, even though the state says you can throw 90."

I really hope they reexamine the daily pitch count for next year. 

CaCO3Girl posted:
PGStaff posted:

I believe that every young pitcher should take at least two months off of competitive throwing.  However, people need to understand that it doesn't have to be the same two or three months for everyone.  But for most it will be in the end of July to beginning of February time frame. In other words within those 6 months. 

Everyone should understand that pitching has risk involved.  You cannot eliminate risk, but you can do things that will help.  High velocity is a problem and can create additional risk.  However in many cases high velocity gets the biggest rewards.  Risk Reward, too much risk might create injury.  No risk = No reward.

Probably still too early to call, but it looks like PitchSmart and HS Association pitch rules are helping to eliminate a lot of abuse. I think we only had one or two violations of the pitchsmart rules all year.  We are talking about thousands and thousands of games.

Pitchsmart is being followed but  do wish the daily limits were set lower for the young kids.  Pitchsmart is SOOO careful in saying anything over 20 pitches needs a full day rest, but then let's a 13 year old  throw 95 pitches in one game and an 11 year old throw 85 pitches?  OUCH!  My son's JV Coach in High School said "You will never throw over 80 pitches in a game, even though the state says you can throw 90."

I really hope they reexamine the daily pitch count for next year. 

Those numbers for 11-12-13 year olds go back to the deal with the devil that Andrews and ASMI made with Little League to get something passed.  He has stated publicly that he wishes they were lower, but they compromised to get Little League on board.  Now those numbers are pretty much etched in stone.  

3and2Fastball posted:
TPM posted:

I think KB's philosophy is more about working in the gym to get stronger and better, learn, rather than be in competition all year round.

Absolutely, and in a perfect world, if Coaches held to the ideals that Driveline frequently proposes (strict pitch counts, practicing more than competing, not playing SS/3B after pitching in the same weekend etc) that'd be different.  But in reality most of those kids are abused at tournaments, pitch way too much and their arms need a break...

If a kid's arm gets abused between the months of Feb-Nov, then a 2-month break is certainly called for.  However, if the kid has a light load between Feb-Sept, then 2 months off might not be completely necessary.  Where exactly a "light load" turns into "overuse" is not real clear, but the comments above provide a start.  I also individual kids experience different wear and tear based on their current strength (relative to competition) and their overall mechanics, which can include whether the kid is high effort or low effort.  

Two months off is the gold standard, but to apply that standard and ignore all other aspects is, IMO, short sighted.  I would still promote the 2 month break (with proper program to ramp back up), but folks should not think such a break is a panacea for abuse during the other 10 months.  Conversely, under the appropriate circumstances, tossing the ball around during those 2 months is not going to blow the kids arm out.

4T2 posted:

>>>>>>>>

A follow-up question, which was actually 50% of the reason I asked in the first place: how do you manage timing of the shut-down? Many advocate fall-ball, many also advocate attending college camps/showcases in the fall/winter. HS baseball starts up in January...I don't see a 8+ week span in my calendar that accommodates the other activities. How do you shut down, but then perform at a showcase/camp? Am I missing a month in my calendar that you guys all have?

-42

4T2 - For Pitchers, I'd stay away from winter camps.  As you mentioned, there is no way to achieve a complete shut down and rest period, plus the arm will be tired after a full year of throwing, the kid won't show well as a P on a winter weekend.  We've done a quick two week shut down at the end of July and take two weeks to slowly ramp back up so the boys were ready for both fall ball or the fall camps and showcases.  (this served as an excellent mental refresher as well, plus I could play some golf).  Complete shutdown started around Nov 1, started throwing bull pen Jan 15 (or so), ready to go in Feb for HS, which for us starts Mar 1.  

JMO.. the winter camps we attended were more for position players...

If your son is a higher academic kid, get him to a few of the high academic college camps  for the fall of junior year.  Two full days under the watch of all the coaches, if he's got skill and grades the coaches will notice, he'll have momentum going into any October AZ, HF, PG Acad, or ShB large format showcases.

 

4T2 posted:

I certainly didn't mean to incite a riot with my original question, but I truly appreciate the various perspectives. From the scientifically-based to the empirically-based, I appreciate them all. It seems as though science supports a shut-down, but genetics can "trump" that to some degree (as evidenced by those that skip the shut-down, develop faster, and don't get hurt). Seems like a risk, unless one is awfully certain his kid's arm has that magic genetic advantage. I'll be shutting him down and focusing on other areas of development, personally.

A follow-up question, which was actually 50% of the reason I asked in the first place: how do you manage timing of the shut-down? Many advocate fall-ball, many also advocate attending college camps/showcases in the fall/winter. HS baseball starts up in January...I don't see a 8+ week span in my calendar that accommodates the other activities. How do you shut down, but then perform at a showcase/camp? Am I missing a month in my calendar that you guys all have?

-42

Here in lies the entire problem, IMHO.  My issue is with the Sophomore to Senior in HS that is looking to play at the next level.  If you are trying to get a college scholarship, the summer and fall is the time to be seen by colleges.  I understand there is some recruiting happening in the spring, but that is there competitive schedule.  This is the EXACT issue we struggled with when my son was going through the process in 2013-2015.  

Son pitched since he was 8 or 9.  We always tried to be sensible and use pitch counts before they were in vogue.  He never complained of arm pain until he felt a "pop" at the age of 15 (actually 1 week before his 16th birthday).  I don't think he was overused, but he did throw frequently as the pitch count rules allowed.  He played CF when he wasn't pitching.

I beat myself up very badly when his UCL was injured.  I placed ALL the blame on myself.  We had the fortune to see Dr. Andrews.  He is an incredibly caring man that takes an incredible amount of time with his patients.  He sat there and listened to our "story" and asked a LOT of questions.  He was extremely patient as well and assured me that it may or may not have been anyone's "fault" that it happened.  He did state that the harder throwing kids ARE the ones getting injured.  He also admitted that he was unsure if it was because they threw harder, which led to them being used more and possibly overused, or it was simply a genetic factor.  Most likely it is a combination of all the above.

The last 5 years of my son's life has been extremely difficult.  He has gone through ulnar nerve transposition and recovery, then UCL reconstruction and recovery.  12/16/17 will be 2 years post-op from TJ surgery.  Things still aren't back to "normal", and they may never be.  It has been and is a LONG road with lots of "two steps forward and then one step back".  His dream is still MLB.  I support him in whichever endeavor he pursues, but as a dad, I'm tired!  The stress is significant.  I completely understand that there is NOTHING I can do, but he is my son.  I will never watch him play again without fear and trepidation.

Competitive baseball is now available year around. To blame the organizations that provide it as the problem is ludicrous. If you choose to have your kid pitch competitively year round - that's on you. I personally think that the availability is fantastic. It gives incredible scheduling flexibility for those attempting to make it to the next level. It allows a kid ans his parents to have choices as to when they take a break and when they schedule off-season work. However, in my experience, I have seen very few (in fact, can't think of one kid) who actually pitch a 12 month schedule or anything close to it.

What works for one may or may not work for another. My '18 son learned to say no to a lot of people and opportunities. In the end, the missed opportunities.....(Scout ball, Ft Myers, AZ).....he'll never know what they were and they don't matter.

He played one season of fall ball freshman year.  Sophomore year, shut down in Oct after doing a couple camps, trained for HS start in March.  Junior year, first time he was really clocked (we really seen it as good velocity and never really cared about the mph)....... 86-90, which garnered very little interest. He decided at that point 90 was not good enough. He shut down in August, worked out and prepared for HS spring, came out 89-93.......That's what it took to bring them out........no instate schools ever surfaced, coincidentally the instate schools were the only camps he attended in the past.

He shut down in August, works out daily, currently gained 11lbs of lean muscle, works with an athletic trainer on mobility and will start arm care/pitching program the first week of November, ramping up to February. To be continued..........

Time off has paid him back well. It comes down to doing your own thing to improve or following the pack and having less time to get it done. JMO

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