OK, I do understand that a long, restful break is essential for arm health. What I can't seem to find solid information on is the meaning of "shutting down" the arm. Is this zero throwing for 2-3 months? Is it just no pitching? What about long-toss?
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None. Zero, Zip. Nada. No means no.
We're in the middle of my position player 2021 Kid taking 2 months off from throwing and he informs me that they are playing Flag Football in gym class and "can I play Quarterback?" Lord have mercy.
To answer the OP's question: it should be no throwing, at all, nothing.
My concern is when is the next time he can take 2 months off from throwing? Once we start him up again October 15th after two months off, the next opportunity for a break will likely be in late October 2018 after Fall Ball is finished.
Not a fan of this philosophy. Shut down from competitive throwing? Yes. Lighten the load? Sure. A complete shutdown - no throwing? I know of no other athletic activity or motion where this would be considered a good idea. Muscles and proprioception simply don't work like that. I think this notion causes more harm than good.
Interesting, Roothog. Dr James Andrews suggests a complete shut down from throwing for 2-3 months every year. Doesn't mean you can't lift weights/workout during that time. Just no throwing.
A lot of medical experts say that year round overhead throwing is a leading cause of arm injuries
roothog66 posted:Not a fan of this philosophy. Shut down from competitive throwing? Yes. Lighten the load? Sure. A complete shutdown - no throwing? I know of no other athletic activity or motion where this would be considered a good idea. Muscles and proprioception simply don't work like that. I think this notion causes more harm than good.
I am not terribly well read when it comes to arm care as it just gets too complicated if you try to understand the underlying science. That said, the whole complete shutdown approach has always seemed rather extreme. In basic terms, my understanding is that the break is designed to allow complete healing of all the various micro tears, but I don't really understand how some activities are acceptable (for instance the dual sport kid playing QB) while overhand throwing of a baseball - at any level - is considered unacceptable. I just cannot believe some level of throwing would totally disrupt whatever healing is supposed to occur. If the actual protocol had the kid in a sling for 2 months, that would make more sense (i.e. immobile for the duration), but isolating this one motion among all the other allowed motions just doesn't feel like the entire answer. It sort of feels like an easy, understandable program that has some benefits (certainly keeps the kid from pitching at 100%) but perhaps has some downside.
Has anyone seen any solid analysis of what impact low stress throwing might have on the perceived benefits that stem from a complete shutdown? Conversely, has any seen any solid analysis on the benefits of continuing low stress throwing? I am not arguing against the shutdown, just wondering what folks are looking into these days. Next thing you know, someone will say throwing curveballs at 12yo is not dangerous (oh yea, someone has already said that here).
Dr James Andrews
I believe key factors here are several in making this decision.
#1: What age is the player?
#2: What stage of maturity is the player, physically?
#3: How many innings have they logged & are there any arm issues currently?
Andrews & several of the other leading surgeons do recommend 2-3 months of ZERO overhand throwing in offseason, particularly for youth players. Mine is a 2021 & we had always adhered to this when he was in heavy growth stages. I think that makes sense with the growth plate issues etc.
He is now at a stage, physically (6'1" 170), where I believe taking a complete shutdown would be a negative. Our Fall season ends in October. After this, we intend to throw 2X / Week moderately, no mound. Some 80% long toss & a little flat ground & work on secondary pitch feel. Play catch & mix in change up grip & spin some. There will be ZERO max effort throwing & certainly no extreme long toss or heavy ball throwing.
Max Scherzer has adopted this type of program after years of trial & error & complaining of the difficulties & soreness that would always flare as you try to crank it back up in the Spring after a complete shut down.
This method keeps the gains you have made during the season & prevents atrophy of the throwing structures WITHOUT significant risk associated with year round pitching or heavy arm use. To me, it is logical to continue to use the throwing structures & maintain strength & stability to be better suited to enter into the Spring as opposed to a complete shut down for those players who are fully, or close to fully developed physically.
Bingo - "None, zero, zip, nada".... 10-12 weeks is phenomenal if you can. Work backwards from when the season starts, then the couple of weeks when you start throwing a bull pen to ramp up to full speed. This will help dictate when you should start the shut down so you get max rest.
Suggest you look into a reputable throwing program in your area. They'll be working key strength and balance in your lower half and back, as well as throwing patterns, so that the player is prime condition by the time he starts to throw. This can be down in addition to the off season strength program - just work in sufficient rest in between all workouts, and avoid doubling up on exercising the same body part.
My totally uneducated and non proven opinion is that for my son (2020) he needs time to not pitch, or do the pitching motion. Half of his wear and tear is from DEcelerating his arm after he throws. Going to have the same problem in long toss....it's the same motion and the same deceleration issue. I plan to shut him down for 2-3 months but during that time do a weighted ball program...his arm won't be moving as fast and my hope is his deceleration muscles will have time to do the healing they need.
Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.
Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.
Related question: thoughts on Jaeger Band work during the time off from throwing? Yes or no?
Next thing you know, someone will say throwing curveballs at 12yo is not dangerous (oh yea, someone has already said that here).
Yeah, I've said that here and everywhere else because every single study done on the subject backs this contention up and not one study has been able to prove the hypothesis that curve balls thrown by youth pitchers lead to an increases in injury rates - not one. That includes ASMI studies done under the direction of Dr. Andrews. However, that's an srgument for another post.
Part of the difficulty or challenge is that the year-round playing of baseball also correlates with . . . um . . . being better at baseball.
We're now seeing northern states producing more D1 players and high draft picks. How are they doing it? By building indoor facilities that enable year round training. And everyone knows about the Dominicans success in baseball, playing year-round (and the Floridians, and Californians, etc.)
The elephant in the room is that the highest, by far, risk factor for TJ is . . . pitching. But Andrews and Cressey can't come out and say "don't pitch." [BTW, I overheard an MLB area scout say about a HS kid who is a two-way player: "with a swing like that, why would you ever get on a mound?" Interesting viewpoint, IMO]
Steve A. posted:Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.
Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.
I've been told and read, that the arm is moving much slower, and not in a pitching motion. He did the program last year and it looked more like shot-putting than pitching, he didn't grip it like a baseball and over half of it was from his knees. It's not the same.
3and2Fastball posted:
Cressey's examples deal with time off from throwing competitively and throwing programs. I completely agree with it as far as that goes. My own son and my pitchers don't do a throwing program from November 1 until the day after Christmas, but I don't shut them down from light throwing and playing catch - nothing organized as a workout. I definitely wouldn't suggest weighted ball programs in the true "off season." I slowly ramp my kids into a weighted ball program and throwing program for eight weeks scheduled to end the day official high school practices begin. That means starting about Jan 1 where I am. Where I've seen REAL problems at the high school level is with kids coming off of basketball season. If they make the playoffs, I don't get them until basically a week before our first game, they haven't thrown in months and they don't have time to roll into a pitching routine because the season is so short.
CaCO3Girl posted:Steve A. posted:Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.
Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.
I've been told and read, that the arm is moving much slower, and not in a pitching motion. He did the program last year and it looked more like shot-putting than pitching, he didn't grip it like a baseball and over half of it was from his knees. It's not the same.
A good weighted ball program is actual "programming" your arm into correct mechanics, so, while it may not seem the same, the components are very much the same. Also, a good weighted ball program includes underweighted balls as well where - at least theoretically - the arm motions would be faster. Honestly, without the underweight component, you don't get as much out of a weighted ball program.
Steve A. posted:Caco, Totally respect what you relate above. I am certainly by no means an expert here by any stretch as well & just trying to common sense my way through it but I have to ask this.
Logically, how is throwing a 12 oz (weighted) baseball at max effort better for resting the arm or healing decel muscle superior to throwing a 5oz baseball at 80%? This makes no sense to me.
The initial part of the shutdown is complete rest, then they phase in weighted balls, which are thrown into a net close to you along with a crow hop... I don't think they get full extension on the throw... I'm sure a few others know more about the protocol.
I get the disconnect...
3and2Fastball posted:Related question: thoughts on Jaeger Band work during the time off from throwing? Yes or no?
Yesss. That's a big part of the "shutdown" time. We shut down for 2 1/2 months every year and do band work at least 3 times a week during that time. Been great so far.
