My question is why is it that I always see coaches flocking to get a High school freshmen or sophomore who are above 6 feet , since they are projectable?
I see kids below 6 feet with better numbers that most kids ranked above , would the height and weight go into that big of a factor? I already see 2019's committing to Miami and Vandy and it looks to be at least 2-3 at the same positions( not including pitchers and bloodlines)?
just wondering why ,
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I think the reason you see coaches acting that way is because it is generally an advantage in baseball to be bigger and stronger. The average adult male in the U.S. is 5'9", the average MLB player is listed at 6'2".
That's not to say smaller kids can't play. In fact, one of the Vandy commits in the 2019 class is a pitcher listed at 5'10". But he is a lefty.
I look at it like speed. In general, it's an advantage in baseball to be able to run faster. I'd be willing to wager that the average MLB 60-yard dash (6.9 - 7.0) is way, way faster than the average among the population at large. But, still, there are some slow guys who can play.
There is a long-held belief by baseball people that taller pitchers are "more durable" and have longer levers, giving them more room for future development. Further, I think there is a deception in watching a tall pitcher versus a smaller kid. To me, the taller kid always looks like he's giving less effort and the small pitcher looks like he's straining and throwing his very hardest on every pitch. I believe these to be false assumptions and they aren't really backed up by science. However, with my 2018 approaching 6' 5", I'm more than willing to let the myth flourish.
Also the taller pitchers will release the ball a little closer to home plate ( announcers often talk about extension of perceived velocity) and taller pitchers often have a little more downward plane in their pitch which many pitching coaches like.
That is all true. When my son was in the being recruited mode, as a 5'10" RHP, he was discounted pretty quickly by a few. It happens, right or wrong. HE never really said much about it until end of last year, his freshman year in college. In a general conversation, he said he loved beating U of .... twice. He threw 15 IP of shutout baseball between the 2 games and K'd their drafted player 3 times in 5 AB. He said " Wonder if that coach thinks I am to short now" 
.
If you throw 93 height probably doesn't matter but if you throw 86 and you are 5"10 they won't see much potential to improve but if you are 6"5 they see a lot of room to grow, especially if you are thin.
Dominik85 posted:Also the taller pitchers will release the ball a little closer to home plate ( announcers often talk about extension of perceived velocity) and taller pitchers often have a little more downward plane in their pitch which many pitching coaches like.
The stride is also a huge consideration though some may argue this as myth as well. You can teach someone how to pitch, but you cant teach height and you cant teach speed. As far as position, most position players get offers based on their talent and skills, not position.
To the OP,
Height plus velo. Imagine a 95mph FB coming at the hitter, most just dont have time to catch up, more than likely the first few times they are at the plate.
I talked with a guy who was a late round pick 15+ years ago. Big guy, 6'4" 200+ coming out of college. Hard throwing RHP with good stuff drafted out of a D2. He said that he was measured physically every way possible, including his hand size both length and width, foot size, etc... Said it was more measuring than getting fitted for a new suit. And his stride length and release point from the mound was measured. He was not a 5'10" guy claiming to be 6'. Basically, size matters.
ok, I understand about pitchers, how about position players?
Once again I will throw out TrackMan as a tool that could help provide some additional "measurements" to include release point (how far from plate is ball released). This would account for both stride length as well as some body length and help provide actual data on how an individual uses their available height. I know there are some "calculations" that attempt to portray the "effective" speed of a fastball given its initial velocity and release point - the closer the release point the higher the "effective" speed (assuming an identical initial velocity).
chefmike7777 posted:That is all true. When my son was in the being recruited mode, as a 5'10" RHP, he was discounted pretty quickly by a few. It happens, right or wrong. HE never really said much about it until end of last year, his freshman year in college. In a general conversation, he said he loved beating U of .... twice. He threw 15 IP of shutout baseball between the 2 games and K'd their drafted player 3 times in 5 AB. He said " Wonder if that coach thinks I am to short now"
2 words: Carson Fulmer.
I stood next to him at Sox Fest last weekend and he might of been 6"0 with his boots on.....
Vandy doesn't seem to have a problem with the height myth going after that 2018 kid...
Here is a couple more. Interesting that they both listed them self taller than they are now.
http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...ofile.aspx?ID=112655
http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...ofile.aspx?ID=106217
Here is an interesting article about short pitchers.
PG Staff, you know all the right things to say ! haha
PGStaff posted:Here is a couple more. Interesting that they both listed them self taller than they are now.
http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...ofile.aspx?ID=112655
http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...ofile.aspx?ID=106217
Here is an interesting article about short pitchers.
http://www.perfectgame.org/Pla...ofile.aspx?ID=371327
You will now have to wait a season b/c of his transfer to OK, but watch Kyler Murray play QB on a Saturday and let me know what you think his height it.
wsoxfanatic posted:chefmike7777 posted:That is all true. When my son was in the being recruited mode, as a 5'10" RHP, he was discounted pretty quickly by a few. It happens, right or wrong. HE never really said much about it until end of last year, his freshman year in college. In a general conversation, he said he loved beating U of .... twice. He threw 15 IP of shutout baseball between the 2 games and K'd their drafted player 3 times in 5 AB. He said " Wonder if that coach thinks I am to short now"
2 words: Carson Fulmer.
I stood next to him at Sox Fest last weekend and he might of been 6"0 with his boots on.....
Vandy doesn't seem to have a problem with the height myth going after that 2018 kid...
Vandy has zero pitchers listed under 6 feet on their current roster. There are always exceptions for exceptional talent, and I would say Fulmer fits that category.
c2019 posted:ok, I understand about pitchers, how about position players?
The average MLB player -- not just pitchers, but overall -- is listed at 6'2". In general it is an advantage in baseball to be bigger and stronger. That's why coaches gravitate to bigger and stronger kids. There are always exceptions -- Pedroia, Rollins, Altuve, etc., etc.
9and7dad posted:wsoxfanatic posted:chefmike7777 posted:That is all true. When my son was in the being recruited mode, as a 5'10" RHP, he was discounted pretty quickly by a few. It happens, right or wrong. HE never really said much about it until end of last year, his freshman year in college. In a general conversation, he said he loved beating U of .... twice. He threw 15 IP of shutout baseball between the 2 games and K'd their drafted player 3 times in 5 AB. He said " Wonder if that coach thinks I am to short now"
2 words: Carson Fulmer.
I stood next to him at Sox Fest last weekend and he might of been 6"0 with his boots on.....
Vandy doesn't seem to have a problem with the height myth going after that 2018 kid...
Vandy has zero pitchers listed under 6 feet on their current roster. There are always exceptions for exceptional talent, and I would say Fulmer fits that category.
I would agree that it is more of an exception. The scouts will find the talent no matter what the physical makeup. The great under 6' pitchers typically are just great athletes. Btw Fulmer seems like such a great kid and was fun talking to him.
Look at this chart...
http://i.imgur.com/ftOaEsO.png
A large percentage of exceptional athletes in many sports are 6' or taller. At the same time there is plenty of room for those under 6' to reach the highest levels of baseball.
Good 5'9 or bad 6'3 is an easy decision. For some reason people want to believe there is some sort of conspiracy against shorter players. Maybe it is as simple as who is the best. Size doesn't necessarily make anyone better. But the 6'2 kid that gets beat out by the 5'9 kid uses what for an excuse?
If you are under 6', don't use it as an excuse. All those sub 6 footers that made it to the top never used that crutch. Size is an advantage, but there are a lot more baseball players at the top under 6' than those over 6'8.
Any successful athlete, any size, is unique. Sure size is a factor, so what?
c2019 posted:ok, I understand about pitchers, how about position players?
If you can hit, and demonstrate the characteristics of an excellent hitter as well as the characteristics of a great teammate and a hard worker in school and on the field, I wouldn't worry about it. Trust me on that statement, but if not, take a look at two of the 2016 South Carolina recruits.
IMO, there is a huge difference between what makes up a college player vs professional.
TPM posted:IMO, there is a huge difference between what makes up a college player vs professional.
MOTO alert.
joemktg posted:TPM posted:IMO, there is a huge difference between what makes up a college player vs professional.
MOTO alert.
What?
I said that because people always ask why did the better smaller player not get a scholarship to the power 5 or not drafted while the player who isn't as good gets attention.
In general it is about physical skills and being able to teach how to play a position . Usually the smaller guys have to play college to overcome that bias.
The long and the sahort of it is that size matters and some folks get real angry about that instead of focusing on what the player will someday excel at.
Hope that makes sense.
PG said it best Talent will win out every time. But size does matter to some folks in the decision positions. My son was never tall, probably never will be. He was undersized and pudgy from 11-15. (8th grade 5'3" 160#). He had natural talent for both baseball and basketball. Great hand, strong, eye/ hand coordination was exceptional. But slow. Did not fit the prototype for a point guard or SS at all. Puberty waited for him. But he was always one of the best players in both sports. because he worked hard and had a fiery competiveness.
His freshman year he "spurted" to 5'7" and slimmed down. Hard work and puberty. He was 5'9/10" 175 when he graduated HS. but left which much accolades over a large region. Today as a sophomore he is 6' 200# and crazy how sculpted
I think his height or lack of made him a better player and is partly why is where is he is today. He was never the kid who you looked at and said "stud". Even amongst his college teammates. He is not one of the more physically imposing guys (he is when compared to average college male now- but not the athletes).
But the truth is we always knew a slow footed 5'10" point guard was not going to play in the highest levels (or any) of college and he had moved to 3B because he was really quick but a ton of range like is necessary as a SS. He could really hit and hit with power. He could have done that in college, He had the opportunity to try it at his current university. But physically he was blessed with a very talented right arm and the other physically make up to be able to use that at full advantage.
For him is competitiveness, desire to stand out, hard work and the fact that his initial athletism was not a given made him a very good baseball player today. It isn't over, he has bigger dreams. Team and self.
So for him, his lack of height, etc helped him be who he is today. No excuses. Take what God has given you and work hard to make it the best it possibly can be. Let the chips fall where they may.
It is all I ever ask of any of my children in anything they do.
2019Dad posted:c2019 posted:ok, I understand about pitchers, how about position players?
The average MLB player -- not just pitchers, but overall -- is listed at 6'2". In general it is an advantage in baseball to be bigger and stronger. That's why coaches gravitate to bigger and stronger kids. There are always exceptions -- Pedroia, Rollins, Altuve, etc., etc.
Yadier Molina, Prince Fielder, Adrian Beltre, Yoenis Cespedes, Andrew McCutchen, Josh Donaldson......
First we need to understand there is a big difference between pitchers and positional players. It most definitely IS an advantage to be tall for pitchers. It is NOT myth that the longer levers result in greater velocity. Yes there ARE exceptions but relatively few. On the other hand size can be disadvantage for a hitter. Name pitchers 6'5" and over and you will be here all day. How many hitters can you name? Fewer than you may think. Hard to get to that pitch down and away. And umps simply refuse to adjust the zone for tall guys. They call the shin high strike. But the short guys do get their zone lowered. You need to be strong to be a good hitter, height is rather unimportant and can in fact be a disadvantage.
I recently heard a prospect Podcast and they dabated whether Julio Urias was to short to become a durable ace starter. Urias is 6"2. The guy mentioned that shorter Starters are usually not as durable, especially if they are hard throwers (if you are a knuckleballer it probably doesn't matter but if you throw 95 and you are 5"11 they might think you won't Keep that up and rather Slot you as a reliever).
Of course it is possible to throw 95 at 5"10 if you are really explosive but those guys Need to use extreme stride momentum and hip shoulder Separation to reach those velocities. if that guy just loses a Little bit of flexibility or lower Body explosiveness his Velo will go down quite a bit while a 6"5 guy might be able to throw 95 with a more conservative Motion. just compare a guy like lincecum with Randy Johnson, lincecum needed a lot more Separation and explosiveness to hit his 96-97 than Johnson and he lost his fastball when he was in his late 20s (without Major injuries) while Randy could throw 99 at Age 40.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to really add to the debate, but my gut says change podcasts. If 6'2" was tall enough for Nolan Ryan, I think Urias will be fine.
Since I'm the OP , ill add this, the KC WS Champs pitching leaders by the numbers are ( Edinson Volquez-6.0 ht, Yordano Ventura-6.0 ht, Greg Holland-5.10 ht, Kelvin Herrera-5.10 ht) all 6 feet or under..
I don't know about you, but they have a WS ring...
I'm all about the Underdogs and my son isn't a pitcher yet, if I were to show you my 2019 numbers without his year of Graduation you would think those are 2016 numbers. not taking away from anyone else that's just him, he's about to start on Varsity as a Freshmen , but you are correct the smaller kids have to work harder..alot harder !! also my 2019 was the MVP at a All American game last month at a 15u(2018-2019 ) event , he was the smallest kid on the team by far and had the best offensive numbers .I say that cause some of those kids have already verbal to D1 schools . but on that day he out perform everyone else.
big or small, you have to work at your craft . just my 2 cents ..
DOMINIK85,
Good point, but probably not fair to compare many pitchers 5-10 or 6-5 to Randy Johnson.
In his era some of the best pitchers beside him would have been Maddux, Clemens and Pedro Martinez.
c2019 posted:Since I'm the OP , ill add this, the KC WS Champs pitching leaders by the numbers are ( Edinson Volquez-6.0 ht, Yordano Ventura-6.0 ht, Greg Holland-5.10 ht, Kelvin Herrera-5.10 ht) all 6 feet or under..
I don't know about you, but they have a WS ring...
I'm all about the Underdogs and my son isn't a pitcher yet, if I were to show you my 2019 numbers without his year of Graduation you would think those are 2016 numbers. not taking away from anyone else that's just him, he's about to start on Varsity as a Freshmen , but you are correct the smaller kids have to work harder..alot harder !! also my 2019 was the MVP at a All American game last month at a 15u(2018-2019 ) event , he was the smallest kid on the team by far and had the best offensive numbers .I say that cause some of those kids have already verbal to D1 schools . but on that day he out perform everyone else.
big or small, you have to work at your craft . just my 2 cents ..
Everyone has to work hard. No exceptions.
And remember how you perform as a freshman does not determine how you will perform as a senior.
c2019 posted:Since I'm the OP , ill add this, the KC WS Champs pitching leaders by the numbers are ( Edinson Volquez-6.0 ht, Yordano Ventura-6.0 ht, Greg Holland-5.10 ht, Kelvin Herrera-5.10 ht) all 6 feet or under..
I don't know about you, but they have a WS ring...
I'm all about the Underdogs and my son isn't a pitcher yet, if I were to show you my 2019 numbers without his year of Graduation you would think those are 2016 numbers. not taking away from anyone else that's just him, he's about to start on Varsity as a Freshmen , but you are correct the smaller kids have to work harder..alot harder !! also my 2019 was the MVP at a All American game last month at a 15u(2018-2019 ) event , he was the smallest kid on the team by far and had the best offensive numbers .I say that cause some of those kids have already verbal to D1 schools . but on that day he out perform everyone else.
big or small, you have to work at your craft . just my 2 cents ..
Don't go comparing your player to ML guys, or 2016s either. A lot of stuff is going to happen between now and then.
TPM posted:c2019 posted:Since I'm the OP , ill add this, the KC WS Champs pitching leaders by the numbers are ( Edinson Volquez-6.0 ht, Yordano Ventura-6.0 ht, Greg Holland-5.10 ht, Kelvin Herrera-5.10 ht) all 6 feet or under..
I don't know about you, but they have a WS ring...
I'm all about the Underdogs and my son isn't a pitcher yet, if I were to show you my 2019 numbers without his year of Graduation you would think those are 2016 numbers. not taking away from anyone else that's just him, he's about to start on Varsity as a Freshmen , but you are correct the smaller kids have to work harder..alot harder !! also my 2019 was the MVP at a All American game last month at a 15u(2018-2019 ) event , he was the smallest kid on the team by far and had the best offensive numbers .I say that cause some of those kids have already verbal to D1 schools . but on that day he out perform everyone else.
big or small, you have to work at your craft . just my 2 cents ..
Don't go comparing your player to ML guys, or 2016s either. A lot of stuff is going to happen between now and then.
Ha..sorry I'm not comparing him just from what some scouts told me
c2019 posted:My question is why is it that I always see coaches flocking to get a High school freshmen or sophomore who are above 6 feet , since they are projectable?
I see kids below 6 feet with better numbers that most kids ranked above , would the height and weight go into that big of a factor? I already see 2019's committing to Miami and Vandy and it looks to be at least 2-3 at the same positions( not including pitchers and bloodlines)?
just wondering why ,
It's about the players tangibles, how many does he have? The more of course the better and above average. A scout will asked these questions when they watch 1 player. Can he run, can he throw, his height (for pitching)does he have good instincts, can he catch, can he hit and is he athletic. Is he heathly, Does he stay humble and respect the game, is he a teamate. There many players he can say YES to on these tangibles.
Now here where the speration happens, He looks this 1 players other tangibles and thinks to himself and says, can he play first, can he play 2nd base, SS and 3rd? Can he play the outfield? Well if a scout says yes to all of those than that player has a shot at being drafted or going to a D1 team or play in college. Of course there are other levels of this but basically this is what a scout is looking for when they come to watch a player.
