Some "Runner at 3rd" situational discussion

With a runner at third and less than two out, how far off do you let your runner lead, with primary and secondary?  Do you allow a secondary?

Lead is as far off as the 3rd baseman.  Secondary is a walking lead.  When the pitcher falls to the plate we walk to the place.

On 1st & 3rd, when trying to create a steal/fake steal/etc. play with runner at first in order to score the runner at 3rd, specifically what are the cues you identify for R3 to go?

They must read an unreceivable by the pitcher or they will work off the Short Stop running R1 back to first on a Fake Steal.  If it is a straight steal by R1 they read unreceivable throw.  The way I define unreceivable is actually a high throw.  IMO when teams run a back to the pitcher play the ball will always be a lower throw more handable throw.  Hard to explain in writing.

Thanks IEBSBL..

OK, so on the first question, if you take a lead as far as 3b allows and then you take a walking secondary, does that mean you are OK with this runner getting stuck on a firm ground ball straight to 3b?  Or does your walking secondary include going only so far as that R3 can beat 3b back to the bag?

For the second question, if you have R3 going on unreceivable/high past P, how often are you caught by a ss/2b cheating in and taking the throw short to nab R3 at home?  Roughly what percentage of C's in your league throw thru strong enough and low enough that it is hard to identify "unreceivable"? 

Same questions to other coaches as well..

One of the cooler things I've seen used against a LHP in a 1st / 3rd is the leave early.  In this case the runner at third gets a huge walking start while runner on first takes a normal one.  But the runner on third breaks and as soon as he does the runner on first breaks - either straight steal, jog, sprint then stop, whatever - which draws the pickoff throw.  Basically, you want your runner on third to be about 1/3 of the way home before he breaks hard.  Plus, you want to make sure you time it so you don't break late and runner is going to plate and the pitcher has delivered a pitch.  Hopefully, you've trained your batters well enough to lay a bunt down if that does happen.  

I've never been in an opportunity to use this myself but I'm really hoping to.

Sometimes I have my runner at first take a lead that will draw a throw over, not a big lead that looks fishy, but just enough that the pitcher can't resist an attempt to pick him. Runner at 3rd will quietly take a nice lead without drawing much attention so 3b coach doesn't see what's going on either. When pitcher throw's to 1st my runner will take a quick jab step back toward first base as if he is trying to get back, while the first baseman is trying to apply a tag, runner at 3b is scoring. We like to use this against teams that have a big slow first baseman with bad footwork, the end result is almost always a run scored, and a runner at 2b, and a weakness at first exposed.

 Nice video, that is almost exactly what I'm talking about. The difference being we kinda scramble like we are trying to get back to first, and we stay out of reach of the 1st baseman. Then we take 2nd on the throw home.

Lead off at 3rd... very minimal making sure momentum is heading home when ball arrives to the plate. If you get picked off 3rd, you are probably coming out of the game. We only get 21 outs, i tend to be pretty protective of them.

1st and 3rd plays... as crazy as it looks, those plays are actually easier with a lefty pitching and he is looking right at it (cuz he's a lefty some would say!)... it does take some guts to try it... depending on who we have hitting, right guys?

Good feedback and take-aways from all...  thanks.

We graduated most of our starters so this year's team comes in with very sparse experience at the V level.  Some of their actions had me questioning some of our specific offensive directives in these situations.  As I re-thought through the various scenarios, I was left unsure that we had the best approach, particularly with the 1st & 3rd reads offensively.  Over the last five years or so, we have moved up in competition level and have built a much stronger non-league and tourney schedule.  It becomes apparent that the skill level of the defense can be cause for changing our old approach and tactics.  One thing I'm rolling around in my head is, as 3b coach, take a position much further down the line toward home plate to get a better read on P and MIF picks and call the yes or no on sending R3.

For 1st and 3rd defense, we run four plays.  Throw thru, MIF pick, P pick and C pump and throw to 3rd.  These still seem to cover everything pretty well. 

I'd love to hear further dialog here on 1st & 3rd reads offensively... Freddy, what do you do against good competition when your 3b coach does NOT know what the defense will do?  IEBSBL, would love to hear back from you with your take on my follow up questions and any further input.  Coach 2709, I like a lot of your approach but wonder, can R3 really have enough peripheral to watch for all possibilities (C throwing behind him, P picking, MIF picking and throw thru) and still make a good read on throw down?  Seems like if he is watching for P and MIF pick, he would have to shift his eye sights before catcher releases the ball.??

Trojan-skip, Doc, others?  More, more, more.

So, 1st and 3rd offense... keep it rolling. 

 If you like to roll the dice a little bit the "fake bunt slash hit and-run" can lead to a big inning. This includes a steal attempt and a fake bunt, the hitter will do his best to hit the ball in the dirt. I like to work this play in fast ball counts to ensure a good pitch to work with. With runners on first and third the infield is often moving and cant react to a sharp hit ball on the ground, guy"s that are in a slump or bottom of the line up make great candidates for this play.

The result is often a run scored and a man in scoring position.

I tell runners to get lead as far as 3rd baseman is playing off bag. Once pitcher goes through windup process, runner is to take secondary walking lead. I expect him to brake for home if the ball gets past catcher. If catcher catches, runner loops back to third in fair territory (eliminating clear line to throw from catcher to third base.)

Hey Coach3, glad to have you aboard. 

You may want to read the earlier posts in this thread.  If you use the method you describe with less than 2 out (which was the original question), your runner will be stuck on a firm grounder straight back to 3b or within a step left or right.  Unless I am missing what you are describing, the extra walking secondary creates the extra space that allows 3b to make the play on your R3.  That's one of the things that initiated my OP... the young kids coming up into our program were all inclined to make that mistake.  We don't want to lose our guy in scoring position here.  Certainly open to differing opinions, though.

Not going to lie but it is tough but we are going to take chances in these situations.  We do get burned sometimes but overall the odds are they will not do anything outside of throw through or do the MIF cut.  Don't forget there is a basecoach there to help as well.  Their responsibility is to spy the 3B to see if he's flashing to the bag.  Don't forget that we start close to the bag and in this situation we stop sooner than normal so our lead off the bag isn't that big.  So while the runner watches the MIF the coach is watching the 3B for a pick.

You know as well as I do there isn't a fool proof strategy that will work all the time.  When you do things like this you're taking a chance.  In terms of what the defense can do the most likely scenarios are throwing through or MIF cut.  In these two situations it is the runners responsibility to know what's going on.  The next two scenarios are (in this order) catcher picking to 3B and pitcher making the cut. In these two it's up to the basecoach to let the runner know what's going on.  

Overall, I want aggressive guys on the bases and not just in situations like these.  We do get burned on occasion and if we do we live with it.  You can't be aggressive and then get onto the guys when it goes wrong because they are doing what we tell / teach them to do.

If he is struck with a firm grounder (or line drive) it will be a foul ball anyway. R3 always needs to take his lead in foul territory for that reason. Now, as far as getting hung out, honestly, if he goes into a walking secondary, how many steps do you feel he will gain towards home? Maybe 3-4? The whole purpose of the walking secondary is for that momentum. Let's say primary lead is 5 feet off bag, and secondary is another 3-4 feet, once that ball is secure by the catchers mitt, that R3 better be booking it back to 3rd in fair territory. I have never seen a snap throw actually pick a R3 off under that condition (especially with a righty at bat.)

*Edit- Just noticed you said gb straight to 3b man or one step left or right. I agree, however, that's a gamble I may be willing to take early in the game. In my years of coaching, I have seen more wild pitches/passed balls with a runner at 3rd than a 5 PO unassisted at 3rd. I see what you are saying though.

Sorry Cabbage I thought I had already responded....

OK, so on the first question, if you take a lead as far as 3b allows and then you take a walking secondary, does that mean you are OK with this runner getting stuck on a firm ground ball straight to 3b?  Or does your walking secondary include going only so far as that R3 can beat 3b back to the bag? I have never been in a situation where a firm ground ball has gotten us out.  Now, I have seen some rockets but the firm ground ball no.  We spend a lot of time making 3B reads on the bases.  The secondary after the lead is only a 2 step walk so that your foot lands as the ball enters the zone.

For the second question, if you have R3 going on unreceivable/high past P, how often are you caught by a ss/2b cheating in and taking the throw short to nab R3 at home?  Roughly what percentage of C's in your league throw thru strong enough and low enough that it is hard to identify "unreceivable"? We don't get caught by MIF creeping unless our coach I blow the read.  That is what I look for.  There is only 1 catcher in our league that can make the type of throw we are talking about and he plays for us.

As far as runners at 1st/3rd are concerned, I'm not interested in trying to "force" that runner at third to score on that play. I am not trying to trade a runner at first and third with one out for a runner at second with two outs (because my runner at third got hosed at home). Seen it too many times and how it could completely deflate the teams/rally. I would take my chances trying to straight steal runner at first, and either get a ball launched to CF, or have MIF cut and then we have runners camped at 2nd and 3rd still with one out. IF by chance they cut down the runner trying to steal second, I say good job to them. Most cases, however, the defense will make a mistake and we get a stolen base and/or a run out of the situation.

We run it and call it "double first move." Basically meaning both runners are going on 1st move. We have the r at 1b take a big lead, and at the right time lean into it like he's going. Basically we're doing everything to draw the high leg kick throw to first. Runner at 3b breaks on 1st move and swipes home. 

We are a lot like coach2709, but we do get perpendicular to the foul line with our momentum headed home.  Runners should be able to read ground ball to 3rd and be headed back to the bag before the ball ever reaches the 3rd baseman....(also we are prob. running if R2 and R3...see the topic on running on contact). 

1st and 3rd there are many.... depends on who we are playing and who the runners are.  This year we have a fast team and we will straight steal most of the time.  With our avg. or slower runners we will delay steal. One of our slower kids has mastered this and is 5 for 5 this year on delayed steals. If you are playing a team that likes to bring the MIF up short and cut the throw from the catcher, slashing works wonders.  Someone above said they are going to start using this play on def.  I used to use it a good bit, but I have quit using this def play the last few years.  The key is to get your catcher to recognize if he can get R3 before he throws to second.  If R3 had a normal size lead and the catcher cant pick him off, our catcher and shortstop can play catch before R3 can get home.

I see your point but this is a 2 out situation with 1 or 2 strikes on the batter (typically, not your stronger hitters either).