Staying in baseball shape while playing football

I think any more would be over the top.  The football players I see in fall baseball look exhausted.  I wouldn't add anything to it.  And their play often looks a little rough, my guess from the lack of rest.

My opinion on "football strong" through the strength and conditioning I see from my son's high school, it's all about "maxing out" on squats, bench, dead-lift.  If a player survives that without getting injured, move to a more plyo-based workout after football.

I would have him hit once a week in the cages or with an instructor if he takes lessons and then increase that the week b4 events. If he's not a QB and or doesn't pitch, then doing long toss twice a week should be good. Just something to keep his arm stretched out. Maybe do some fielding the wknd b4 events. I would recommend shutting down the arm after the fall events for at least a couple of months though.

MomLW posted:

....

What would you suggest he do to stay in the best shape for baseball?  ...

Avoid hitting and getting hit in football   

It can be tough.  He is gonna get beat up playing FB and will not be at peak with showing his baseball skills.  I'm not saying don't do it but that is the trade-off for playing both.  It's also tough because a lot of players really get out of the groove when they cut baseball activities from 5-6 days a week to one or two.  Some do fine with it.

So he needs to throw a few times a week to maintain arm strength and sharpness and he needs to hit and get glove work as often as is needed to stay sharp, particularly the week leading up to the baseball event.  It will also help a great deal if he can have someone throw live to him once or twice that week.  At least it's just through September so there is light at the end of the tunnel with the double duty.  

MomLW posted:

What would you suggest he do to stay in the best shape for baseball?  

I would suggest he not play Football and continue working on Baseball 5-6 days a week.

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, honestly.   But if he is playing Football I wouldn't have him Showcase in the Fall.   I don't know how he could keep his arm & hitting in shape while simultaneously playing Football without overtraining

Just an idea, MomLW -- does the football team have any weekends with no games, and, if so, can he do a camp/showcase that weekend? Hard to play football Friday night and be at your best on Saturday morning . . . Obviously, it can be done, but it sure would be easier if hey had an off weekend.

3and2, you make a good suggestion (not showcasing in the Fall), but the challenge is that NCAA D1 baseball programs go into a mandatory quiet period from Nov. 10, 2017 -- Feb. 28, 2018, so by the time football season is over, there isn't nearly as much opportunity to get in front of D1 coaches until March.

Son played that "other" football in fall. As a position player in baseball his fall ball allowed him to keep his swings fresh. His throwing was OK, but his base running wasn't as sharp due the playing 80 minutes straight in soccer as defender. I don't think he had any Saturday games for the other sport which made it doable.  As for 2019 Dad's comment above about the quiet period, son got quite a bit of mileage from Showball MEGA Camps in Florida in December during his sophomore and junior years. At those events (and others at that period)  coaches were "instructing" with clipboards in hand.

I think it totally depends on what position he plays.  My middle was and my youngest is a quarterback.  My middle threw faster in the fall than any other time and I think it was the throwing a football all week and then throwing a baseball.  My middle actually threw his best showcase ever on a Saturday after playing football in the rain.  Driving 4 hours to UNC.  Could not get a motel, the one we had overbooked and there was a big football game at UNC and Duke that weekend.  He slept on the parking lot at UNC and threw his best game speed wise the next morning at 8:30 AM.  He also hit a homerun and 2 doubles.

I remember the UNC assistant coach pulled into the parking lot and looked at him like he was crazy.  After the game, that morning he said maybe that needs to be his routine every showcase. 

Not the ideal conditions.  I think it depends on the kid and where he plays in football and where he plays in baseball.  We never threw baseballs during the week, not even shorts.  Both of them have done well in the fall.  If you aren't throwing a football, you definitely need to keep arm going during the week without overdoing it to be game ready.  NO  need to do showcases or tournaments in the fall if you are not in good shape.  I would also make sure the colleges that are watching you know that you play football so they know you might not be at top form.

As has been said on here before, some colleges like you playing multiple sports and some dont. 

Go44dad posted:

I think any more would be over the top.  The football players I see in fall baseball look exhausted.  I wouldn't add anything to it.  And their play often looks a little rough, my guess from the lack of rest.

My opinion on "football strong" through the strength and conditioning I see from my son's high school, it's all about "maxing out" on squats, bench, dead-lift.  If a player survives that without getting injured, move to a more plyo-based workout after football.

Couldn't agree more. In fact, if he can avoid max out lifting I would suggest that - especially with squats, dead lift, etc. - the lifts that put the back at risk.  So much HS weight lifting is not properly taught or supervised.  That turns certain lifts into high risk activities - and there are other ways to gain strength that are less risky.  But good luck explaining that to a football coach.  Baseball players need to improve flexibility and quickness more than they need bigger muscles. So my advice is try to avoid max out lifting (if possible), try to avoid risky lifts altogether (squats & dead lift), and try to do higher rep lower weight type work. Also a good idea to hang from a bar after doing upper body work. With the right mindset he should be able to participate in football team weight lifting activities without calling any attention to how he is lifting compared to his teammates. Hopefully. But if baseball is the higher priority, he doesn't need to be lifting like a football player.  He needs to be lifting like a baseball player. Just do it on the down low. I am speaking from experience on this one.

adbono posted:

 But if baseball is the higher priority, he doesn't need to be lifting like a football player.  He needs to be lifting like a baseball player. Just do it on the down low. I am speaking from experience on this one.

X 100

Thanks, all.  He's a linebacker, so not throwing a football.  

I've told him every year, it won't hurt my feelings one bit if you quit football, but he likes to play, so I stay out of it. His baseball coach is the linebacker coach, so I think he keeps an eye on Son and makes sure his strength training is good for a combo football/baseball player.  I've asked Son to talk to him about this topic, too, so maybe he'll advise him on what to do outside of football to be prepared for the camp and the showcase.  But it sounds as if you all suggest that a couple times a week throwing/fielding/swinging, with a bit more the week before the event is probably the best he can do.  

Pitchingfan, your story hits home.   We will have a 5 hour drive after a football game to the showcase venue.  Not ideal situation, but I don't think they will move the showcase for us!      

Sounds like you already have some events scheduled, but I definitely wouldn't add any others. I'm with Go44dad  and adbono... most football players are exhausted after practicing and playing all week. My suggestion would be to show up at the baseball events wearing football pant, and change on the field. (Only half kidding, but make sure they can figure out that he's playing football.)

adbono posted:

Go44dad posted:

I think any more would be over the top.  The football players I see in fall baseball look exhausted.  I wouldn't add anything to it.  And their play often looks a little rough, my guess from the lack of rest.

My opinion on "football strong" through the strength and conditioning I see from my son's high school, it's all about "maxing out" on squats, bench, dead-lift.  If a player survives that without getting injured, move to a more plyo-based workout after football.

Couldn't agree more. In fact, if he can avoid max out lifting I would suggest that - especially with squats, dead lift, etc. - the lifts that put the back at risk.  So much HS weight lifting is not properly taught or supervised.  That turns certain lifts into high risk activities - and there are other ways to gain strength that are less risky.  But good luck explaining that to a football coach.  Baseball players need to improve flexibility and quickness more than they need bigger muscles. So my advice is try to avoid max out lifting (if possible), try to avoid risky lifts altogether (squats & dead lift), and try to do higher rep lower weight type work. Also a good idea to hang from a bar after doing upper body work. With the right mindset he should be able to participate in football team weight lifting activities without calling any attention to how he is lifting compared to his teammates. Hopefully. But if baseball is the higher priority, he doesn't need to be lifting like a football player.  He needs to be lifting like a baseball player. Just do it on the down low. I am speaking from experience on this one.

Totally agree with all of this but the "avoid max out lifting" is way easier said than done.  With the local HS FB programs I am familiar with, measured maxes and competitive "max out" days are getting more spotlight than ever - this is the primary thing players are graded on in the weight room.  So it very well might become more difficult to do it differently on the down low.  

And now, Mom adds that the baseball coach is the linebacker coach.  This could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on that coach's top priority sport, knowledge base and some other factors.  

I know this can be a bit of a stretch but I'm gonna throw it out there anyway...

Mom, it seems that you do a great job of letting your son handle his own business, but this is one of those areas that I would consider stepping in and raising that question with this coach.  Any time health and safety are the topic, I think it is OK for parents to voice any questions or concerns.  Since your son is doing showcases, I will assume that baseball is the sport he wishes to pursue beyond HS (this may be a wrong assumption).  If that is the case, asking that coach what he thinks about slightly modifying son's routine so that it is safe and conducive to his baseball development and, perhaps, having him opt out of some of the max-outs with those movements generally considered to be counter-productive for baseball development may be something to consider.  First, getting some more specific guidelines from some of the resources here such as Matt Reiland may be a good idea.  I know this can be a very slippery slope and probably cause a bit of discomfort, but I think it may be worth considering if everyone is on board with keeping his best interests in mind for his sport of choice and still allow him to play football.  Your son is most likely going to be the warrior and do whatever his coaches tell him in this regard.  This is one of those issues that is too difficult for the typical HS kid to speak up to on his own.  There is also heavy peer pressure from the FB teammates.  But, if a coach is on board, it is far more doable.

At least, you will get a response that will tell you where the coach is in this regard and you and your son can make decisions going forward with that information in pocket.  Of course, there is a good chance that your son will NOT want this discussion to take place.  You are going to know that about him far more than myself or anyone on this board.

Cabbagedad, like minds think alike! I was hesitant to speak up on this topic...long story & not relevant, but FB coaches don't much like to hear from mom's! Been there, done that! 

MomLW, son's BB coach was also a FB coach...Son was a pitcher...So, it seemed best to have his pitching instructor talk to FB/BB coach...follow the advice above from cabbage, adbono, Go44, & russinftworth! Good luck with showcase!

Go44dad posted:

I think any more would be over the top.  The football players I see in fall baseball look exhausted.  I wouldn't add anything to it.  And their play often looks a little rough, my guess from the lack of rest.

My opinion on "football strong" through the strength and conditioning I see from my son's high school, it's all about "maxing out" on squats, bench, dead-lift.  If a player survives that without getting injured, move to a more plyo-based workout after football.

Over the years I've seen this topic come up, and Go44dad hits the nail on the head.   It is exhausting, not to mention all the other things going on in their lives with homework, visiting colleges and ACT/SAT tests.   If the kid has any energy left, let him do what he wants to do....possibly light work such as hitting off a tee or light throwing..  

As always, JMO.

Cabbagedad,

Good idea.  The coaches all know that baseball is Jake's priority.  In fact, he missed a lot of the summer football workouts due to a long run for his team into the ALWS.  His high school has a strong baseball program.  There has been NO push-back on his picking baseball over football, other than the coaches pointing out that it affects his place on the depth chart, and that he will have to make up work just like anyone else that misses football for vacations or other things.   

I will ask Jake about the weight-training, and probably come back here with more questions when I have specifics. Then, if we perceive that he's doing anything that would negatively affect his baseball "shape," I guess there will have to be some discussions with the coaches.  My inclination is that his linebacker coach (who is the head baseball coach) is already taking into account all the weight-training implications, but it is definitely worth being certain in that regard.  

You all are "da bomb" for advising me on this! 

baseballmom posted:

Cabbagedad, like minds think alike! I was hesitant to speak up on this topic...long story & not relevant, but FB coaches don't much like to hear from mom's! Been there, done that! 

MomLW, son's BB coach was also a FB coach...Son was a pitcher...So, it seemed best to have his pitching instructor talk to FB/BB coach...follow the advice above from cabbage, adbono, Go44, & russinftworth! Good luck with showcase!

Absolutely!  There is no way in ____ my son would let me talk to his coaches.  I think he'd take it up with the coaches himself.  

I am the baseball coach but all of our coaches know where my son falls in his future, that being baseball.  The football coaches and basketball coach, who is the weight lifting guy, know he is not to max out on anything.  They are just glad to have him continue to be a part of their programs since he has started on both since Freshman year.  I let him have that talk with them about weightlifting and they were completely fine with it, maybe more because he was man enough to talk with them.  He does some of the weightlifting they do but he actually is in a group with the freshmen so he gets to spend time with them and mentor them plus they cannot get near his maxes so he is doing almost everything everyone else does just not with the heavy weights.  He has caught a little flack from some of his buddies but he just jokingly reminds them he has a future on the mound and they are okay with it.  No fallout that I know of.  But it is a conversation someone has to have with whoever is over weightlifting program.

As baseball coach, I did have to have a conversation with our weightlifting guy last year because he was maxing out on game days with our baseball players and they could hardly move when they got to the field.  I just nicely asked if he did the same thing during basketball season and he understood.  All was good and he changed the plan for baseball players, especially pitchers during baseball season.

PitchingFan posted:

I am the baseball coach but all of our coaches know where my son falls in his future, that being baseball.  The football coaches and basketball coach, who is the weight lifting guy, know he is not to max out on anything.  They are just glad to have him continue to be a part of their programs since he has started on both since Freshman year.  I let him have that talk with them about weightlifting and they were completely fine with it, maybe more because he was man enough to talk with them.  He does some of the weightlifting they do but he actually is in a group with the freshmen so he gets to spend time with them and mentor them plus they cannot get near his maxes so he is doing almost everything everyone else does just not with the heavy weights.  He has caught a little flack from some of his buddies but he just jokingly reminds them he has a future on the mound and they are okay with it.  No fallout that I know of.  But it is a conversation someone has to have with whoever is over weightlifting program.

As baseball coach, I did have to have a conversation with our weightlifting guy last year because he was maxing out on game days with our baseball players and they could hardly move when they got to the field.  I just nicely asked if he did the same thing during basketball season and he understood.  All was good and he changed the plan for baseball players, especially pitchers during baseball season.

What you described is all very sound.  It is a sensible, practical and cooperative effort with the athlete's best interests being foremost in everyone's mind. I'm guessing you don't live in Texas. In Texas what you described would be called a fairy tale.

"In Texas what you described would be called a fairy tale."

Yep, that'd be called a visit from Tinker Bell!

adbono posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I am the baseball coach but all of our coaches know where my son falls in his future, that being baseball.  The football coaches and basketball coach, who is the weight lifting guy, know he is not to max out on anything.  They are just glad to have him continue to be a part of their programs since he has started on both since Freshman year.  I let him have that talk with them about weightlifting and they were completely fine with it, maybe more because he was man enough to talk with them.  He does some of the weightlifting they do but he actually is in a group with the freshmen so he gets to spend time with them and mentor them plus they cannot get near his maxes so he is doing almost everything everyone else does just not with the heavy weights.  He has caught a little flack from some of his buddies but he just jokingly reminds them he has a future on the mound and they are okay with it.  No fallout that I know of.  But it is a conversation someone has to have with whoever is over weightlifting program.

As baseball coach, I did have to have a conversation with our weightlifting guy last year because he was maxing out on game days with our baseball players and they could hardly move when they got to the field.  I just nicely asked if he did the same thing during basketball season and he understood.  All was good and he changed the plan for baseball players, especially pitchers during baseball season.

What you described is all very sound.  It is a sensible, practical and cooperative effort with the athlete's best interests being foremost in everyone's mind. I'm guessing you don't live in Texas. In Texas what you described would be called a fairy tale.

I will 2nd that!  At my son's HS there's FOOTBALL and then all the secondary sports. Even during baseball season, all FB players have to stay in the FB class and lift weights and do drills. Heck we even have spring FB for 3 weeks in May. The thing I don't get is that our head FB coach pitched in the MLB for 10 years and yet if you're on varsity you can't do anything baseball related during FB season (get you benched or dropped down to JV). My 2019 decided not to play FB this year because of all this, plus he wants to focus on baseball and changing a few things in his hitting and pitching (things you can't do while playing). The coaches got mad because he's the starting slot wr and backup qb, but baseball is his ticket to the next level-not football. This was a decision he made on his own when he started getting interest a month ago from 2 of his top schools. I'm proud of him for doing what he thinks is right, he faced a lot of pressure from his coaches (which irks me). 

I've just told my youngest (8th grader in 2nd and last season of football) to lift lighter weights and not max out on anything.  No squats, deadlifts or lifting any weights above shoulders.  All the body lifting / pushing / pulling / tubes / running / core work that he could do.

New middle school AD/FB coach came in last year and found this out and went straight to V baseball coach (who we are close w/ due to older son), who confirmed this.  AD/FB was not to happy.   

russinfortworth posted:

I've just told my youngest (8th grader in 2nd and last season of football) to lift lighter weights and not max out on anything.  No squats, deadlifts or lifting any weights above shoulders.  All the body lifting / pushing / pulling / tubes / running / core work that he could do.

New middle school AD/FB coach came in last year and found this out and went straight to V baseball coach (who we are close w/ due to older son), who confirmed this.  AD/FB was not to happy.   

My youngest son is a 2018 and was a promising prospect at this time last year. Last fall he hurt his back doing squats in his HS weight room (during 7th period off season baseball) with no coaching supervision.  He played in the Texas Futures Game with what we later learned were 2 bulging discs.  Did rehab and fought thru last spring at 70% and played pretty well considering his condition - but needed surgery when season was over.  Missed all summer and will likely miss all of this fall too - depending on how rehab goes.  Needless to say he has missed playing during the most critical time to be recruited (not sure how much of recruiting is really fun - for most it is stressful).  He will get a chance to play somewhere (assuming he fully recovers) but most likely not at the places he had his sights set on.  This is why I chime in pretty heavy handed on this topic. This could have been avoided so easily.

adbono posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I am the baseball coach but all of our coaches know where my son falls in his future, that being baseball.  The football coaches and basketball coach, who is the weight lifting guy, know he is not to max out on anything.  They are just glad to have him continue to be a part of their programs since he has started on both since Freshman year.  I let him have that talk with them about weightlifting and they were completely fine with it, maybe more because he was man enough to talk with them.  He does some of the weightlifting they do but he actually is in a group with the freshmen so he gets to spend time with them and mentor them plus they cannot get near his maxes so he is doing almost everything everyone else does just not with the heavy weights.  He has caught a little flack from some of his buddies but he just jokingly reminds them he has a future on the mound and they are okay with it.  No fallout that I know of.  But it is a conversation someone has to have with whoever is over weightlifting program.

As baseball coach, I did have to have a conversation with our weightlifting guy last year because he was maxing out on game days with our baseball players and they could hardly move when they got to the field.  I just nicely asked if he did the same thing during basketball season and he understood.  All was good and he changed the plan for baseball players, especially pitchers during baseball season.

What you described is all very sound.  It is a sensible, practical and cooperative effort with the athlete's best interests being foremost in everyone's mind. I'm guessing you don't live in Texas. In Texas what you described would be called a fairy tale.

Yeah, and this is definitely not just a Texas thing.  (BTW, just read a piece that lists the top ten towns that produce NFL players per capita and, surprisingly, none were in Texas )  Sorry, back to the post.  It is definitely the norm in most states that football rules and any adjustments come with much resistance.  

PitchingFan, you are fortunate.  As the baseball coach at a school with many multi-sport athletes, I have had similar conversations with our rotating AD's and FB coaches over the years.  Once in a while, adjustments will be made (or lip service given).  It will last a few weeks.  Then, FB focus resumes.  Push, push.  Bench, bench.  Max, max.   If demands don't come from the parents, actions are short-lived.   And that can be a tough spot to put the parents in.

At least, PitchingFan is a coach at the school with a talented son who is wanted enough by the other sports and they have managed a solution...  lots of points of leverage others don't have.

At least, for MomLW, they have the baseball coach on the FB staff, so hopefully that can be the point of leverage.

I will agree that I/my son have leverage.  But that is a plus in smaller schools.  I used to coach in GA and many of the larger schools there will not even let a player play multiple sports much less three sports.  So there are good things and bad things or larger and smaller schools.  I just know that if baseball is your thing then why would you let another sport take it away.  The major problem here is we only have three baseball players.  The rest are just athletes who play whatever sport is in season.  You have to work/coach real hard to win with decent athletes rather than baseball players.  I only have two players who play baseball at all in the summer or fall. 

MOMLW - After playing baseball full-time all summer and football part-time, I give my son about a month off before we do anything baseball related. He basically transitions from baseball to school and football without a break. Every day when I ask him how was his day at school and how was football practice his answer is always "long and tired." It doesn't help that classes start at 7:10am in our county. 

If he is going to participate in a fall tournament, he'll try to hit everyday leading up to it. His former travel team would work out on Sundays in the fall and he would also participate in those practices.  

We typically have a light fall schedule but I'll let him choose what he wants to attend.

Regarding lifting, I guess one good thing is that our football team doesn't max out during the season. They transition to maintenance with an emphasis on flexibility.