Support Networks: College vs Pre-College

What's different between the example and getting a job, an apartment and having to get up for work? I didn't like getting up early for work any more than I liked getting up early to work out for baseball. But both were responsibilities I signed up for. 

RJM posted:

What's different between the example and getting a job, an apartment and having to get up for work? I didn't like getting up early for work any more than I liked getting up early to work out for baseball. But both were responsibilities I signed up for. 

It's the starkness of the transition that I'm thinking about and what you can do as a parent to help prepare the kid for that stark transition so that when they get to college athletics, it doesn't come as the least bit of surprise and they are fully ready to deal. 

SluggerDad posted:

It's the starkness of the transition that I'm thinking about and what you can do as a parent to help prepare the kid for that stark transition so that when they get to college athletics, it doesn't come as the least bit of surprise and they are fully ready to deal. 

I guess for us it was a gradual process.  We worked on having our son take care of as much of the process as we could (with some guidance of course).   For them to be successful, they have to own it.  And even then there was a shock to him when we finally dropped him off at college and left for home (250 mile drive).

In the months leading up to his college freshman year, we helped as much as we could - arranging the off campus housing (coach had paired him with another player who was more or less local to the JuCo),  making one major run to move the big stuff (bed, furniture, etc) to the apartment in advance, worked with the roommates parents to get utilities taken care of, one final run to the local Walmart to get necessities and to stock him up on food.  We, more or less, tried to soften the shock of leaving home for the first time as much as possible, but there is only so much we could do.  Ultimately when we drove away, it was still up to him to get over the shock and deal with the reality that he had to make it happen - academically and athletically.

As far as preparing them to prove themselves to one man (the coach), our approach or guidance to our son was you have to prove yourself every day.   Every team he tried out for after LL (travel, JV, Varsity, Legion and college) he had to prove himself on the field and not take anything for granted - don't assume anything.  No matter how well prepared, nothing can really prepare them completely for college athletics - it is a dog eat dog world.

For our son, I think it was more of shock to show up to the first practice and see 53 players on the field.  All but two had been recruited.  It was up to him to perform well enough in practice to a) make the squad and b) crack the starting line up (he did both).  

One additional comment - no matter how well you prepare them, there will be something that will come as a surprise that no one thought of.  On that, I have no doubt.

I'm not sure if I answered your question, but those are my thoughts.

Now if you really want to shock a kid, let him join the military.  No matter how well prepared, it will be a challenge.  I know from personal experience.

Excellent post, sluggerdad! 

Excellent response, foxdad! 

Interesting questions for sure SD, and something we all have to think about when our kids go off to college, with or without sports.

I have no answers; only a few random thoughts and observations.*

• On campus life is about 5 times as easy as off campus life.  The transition to off-campus, with nobody to shop, cook, clean, enforce curfew, etc.  can be even more difficult for many kids than the initial move to college.
• Incremental responsibilities at a younger age may help. For example, making kids do their own laundry and prep their own lunch starting in middle school seems to have made ours manage a little better.
• Private school kids have better odds of getting into schools, but public school kids may be better equipped when they get there, as there is more of a sink-or-swim mentality in public schools, as opposed to the we-will-not-let-you-fail mentality in private schools. OTOH,  there is less peer pressure for academic achievement in public schools, so there the private kids have an advantage.**
• You really don't want to be a helicopter parent. But obviously you want the kids to thrive. I believe in staying out of their business 100% and have no contact with school, teachers, roommates, etc., but keep an eye on health. There are germs as well as temptations that they have never been exposed to. If one catches on, you want to know about it ASAP so it can be dealt with.
• As long as I'm paying the bills I get to see grades.
• Impress on kid as often as possible that actually going to class is 90% of the battle. 

* - as for school only, not athletics.  Give me a year or two to have an opinion  on that.

** - obviously these are very broad generalizations.

Good points JCD.

One thing I'd add...Teach your kids how to cook! Get them involved in the process at elementary ages...Around our house, from Jr high on, once a week, each kid shopped, prepped & cooked a meal, the other one did the clean up. Son like meatloaf & mashed potatoes, sometimes goulash, then learned to grill...daughter was more chicken dishes & broccoli every way imaginable. Both fixed breakfast occasionally, omelets, frittata, burritos & the like. So, when they were finally in their own apts, they could feed themselves & some of the roommates! 

JCG posted:

• Private school kids have better odds of getting into schools, but public school kids may be better equipped when they get there, as there is more of a sink-or-swim mentality in public schools, as opposed to the we-will-not-let-you-fail mentality in private schools. OTOH,  there is less peer pressure for academic achievement in public schools, so there the private kids have an advantage.**

Public schools are somewhat hampered by the federal policy of "no child left behind".  It's not like the days when I attended school.  There is pressure on the public schools to move the students onto the next grade level.

I can't speak for others, but our children felt a fair amount of peer pressure to succeed in public schools.

I agree that when kids leave for college they don't have the day to day reminders to get up, get moving, study, etc. But I disagree that the support network disappears. My daughter is at college an hour away, not an athlete. She texts two or three times a day with questions as complex as "I think I'm going to change my major" to "you know my white sweater. Is that a delicate?"

She still talks to teachers she had in high school, keeps in touch with family who have all supported her, and she's in a major where she HAS to have a 3.5 GPA in order to get into her program. She has pressures, but she knows where her support comes from and reaches out when she needs it.

My son is a 2018, and we're trying to help him build the same. I want him to feel comfortable asking me for support, but also to have friends and coaches who will still be there for him, even when they're possibly hundreds of miles away.

None of us, even the parents or adults, live our lives alone. Sure we have to get ourselves out of bed, to practice or to work, to battle through disappointments and set backs, but we all have friends, family, mentors and supporters we turn to when things get tough.

I'm grateful to have raised kids who will have that as well.

Iowamom23 posted:

I agree that when kids leave for college they don't have the day to day reminders to get up, get moving, study, etc. But I disagree that the support network disappears. My daughter is at college an hour away, not an athlete. She texts two or three times a day with questions as complex as "I think I'm going to change my major" to "you know my white sweater. Is that a delicate?"

She still talks to teachers she had in high school, keeps in touch with family who have all supported her, and she's in a major where she HAS to have a 3.5 GPA in order to get into her program. She has pressures, but she knows where her support comes from and reaches out when she needs it.

My son is a 2018, and we're trying to help him build the same. I want him to feel comfortable asking me for support, but also to have friends and coaches who will still be there for him, even when they're possibly hundreds of miles away.

None of us, even the parents or adults, live our lives alone. Sure we have to get ourselves out of bed, to practice or to work, to battle through disappointments and set backs, but we all have friends, family, mentors and supporters we turn to when things get tough.

I'm grateful to have raised kids who will have that as well.

Just doesn't  work that way in college athletics. 

Private school kids have better odds of getting into schools, but public school kids may be better equipped when they get there, as there is more of a sink-or-swim mentality in public schools, as opposed to the we-will-not-let-you-fail mentality in private schools. OTOH, there is less peer pressure for academic achievement in public schools, so there the private kids have an advantage.**

My son was recruited by a highly regarded private school with a top baseball program. When comparing the two we found the gifted program at the high school was a better academic program. In fact, one of our friend's kids was going to transfer from the private to the high school after we did the comparison. The issue was he wasn't accepted to the gifted program. 

The best students at the high school were getting into the same colleges as the kids at the private. A kid in a gifted program doesn't need to be pushed. He's competing against the top competition in his classroom.

Kids who want it are most likely to succeed. The most academically talented kids in high school don't see the world as sink or swim. They compete. 

I went to both private and public schools. I saw academically competitive kids in both environments. I saw kids in both environments who couldn't find their way out of a paper bag if you pointed them towards daylight. From my experience and my son's friends I've seen academically talented kids from both environments not do well, at first in college. 

As for sink or swim I knew kids from private school who felt the pressure to succeed as to not shame the family name (names anyone in the business world would recognize). I also saw some of these kids be drug addicts where their parents got them out of trouble and not kicked out of school by making large anonymous donations.*

* One kid while tripping on acid burned down the outdoor hockey rink. He was suspended for an entire week of school. He was back in when a large anonymous donation was received from a large corporation with the same name as the kid. 

FoxDad posted:

JCG posted:

• Private school kids have better odds of getting into schools, but public school kids may be better equipped when they get there, as there is more of a sink-or-swim mentality in public schools, as opposed to the we-will-not-let-you-fail mentality in private schools. OTOH,  there is less peer pressure for academic achievement in public schools, so there the private kids have an advantage.**

Public schools are somewhat hampered by the federal policy of "no child left behind".  It's not like the days when I attended school.  There is pressure on the public schools to move the students onto the next grade level.

I can't speak for others, but our children felt a fair amount of peer pressure to succeed in public schools.

My kids operated on internal pressure they generated themselves. In friendly competition they did want to be better than their friends. My son expected to be the best. My daughter feared not being the best. Two different personality types. My son mastered falling out of trees and landing on his feet while scoring a perfect 10. See! No problem! My daughter is intense. 

Seems to me that an athlete would be less prepared than a typical academic.  If he's used to getting everything handed to him, especially being driven to and from baseball practice/lessons, having all equipment, uniforms and lessons paid for by his parents, having to do less chores so that he could have more time to practice, focusing more on his sport rather than other real life issues, and having a parent who would beat up any coach who didn't play him, that's going to set him back for making the adjustment to college.  

The kids that can't handle the transition to college are usually the ones who were never allowed to make their own decisions, and suffer the benefits or consequences.

Too many parents busy preparing the world for their child instead of preparing their child for the world.

Let them do things.  Let them make mistakes. A parent of one of my son's senior teammates asked me what time he has to be in bed by?  I'm like - lady, he's 18 years old. All I care about is he gets to class on time and gets good grades. The details are on him.

Another mother has asked if her son can spend the night (one night) when she and her husband go out of town for a wedding.  Well, okay - but your son is 18 years old.  Are you telling me he is incapable of handling himself alone for one night?  For crap's sake he's going away to college in a few months.  I'm not sure when he is supposed to learn the skills necessary to survive once he gets out from underneath the apron?

Preparing for college in general is one thing.  College athletics is another thing entirely.

A College professor isn't looking to replace the students in his or her classes just because a better one might come along.   A college professor has an obligation to teach all students, treat all students equally, not to play favorites, to accommodate students with disabilities, to provide a supportive and empowering learning environment in class, in labs, during office hours  ...  and on and on. 

Of course, a professor won't chase you down if you don't show up, won't necessarily cut you slack if you don't put in the work.  That's a bit like a coach.  But there is a HUGE difference between a professor and a coach.   

A coach has nothing like the same set of obligations and responsibilities to his/her players  (or would-be players) as professor has to his/her students.  A professor is not allowed to ask a student,  in effect,  "well, what have you done for me lately, kid."  A coach is.  Indeed, a coach at the college level is almost REQUIRED to have that attitude toward each and everyone of his/her players.   Most professors will never ever call a problematic student out in front of the entire class. Coaches call players out in front of the team quite often. 

It's a little like that in high school, except that in high school  there is some pretense (more or less sincere, depending on the school)  that  coaches are still in the business of educating young men and women -- which means they can't just regard them as disposable commodities.   In college,  coaches are mostly not viewed as part of the teaching staff.  They are there for entirely different reasons and have entirely different relations to their players or would be players than a professor does  (or the student heath services office, or the dean of students, or.... you name it..)

The point is that most college students are embedded in a structure designed not just to test them, but also to help them succeed, if they will just do their parts.  I mean even if they  screw up, they usually aren't immediately kicked out.  They are put on probation, given a second chance, given academic counseling, etc.   All those structures may not be as loving and supportive as parents, but it's not without reason that many schools have a policy of "in loco parentis." 

 Not that there isn't some of that with college coaches.  But getting to the point where the team is invested in you involves more than just being admitted and doing alright.  There is no such thing as a gentleman's C on the playing field.  Hell, there isn't even the equivalent of a B minus.

 And they are much more willing to turn on a dime and be done with you.   That makes you much more of commodity than your average college student. 

So preparing a kid for college in general is one thing.  Preparing them to compete in a sport at the  college level  ... that's something additional.

 Now preparing them to balance BOTH the demands of college athletics AND the demands of college academics... big challenge.  no simple recipe.  

hsbaseball101 posted:

Seems to me that an athlete would be less prepared than a typical academic.  If he's used to getting everything handed to him, especially being driven to and from baseball practice/lessons, having all equipment, uniforms and lessons paid for by his parents, having to do less chores so that he could have more time to practice, focusing more on his sport rather than other real life issues, and having a parent who would beat up any coach who didn't play him, that's going to set him back for making the adjustment to college.  

 

That's a broad general statement that doesn't apply to all student-athletes.  Many student-athletes are high level students who also excel in the classroom.

I can't speak for all, but we did not "hand" our kids everything as you stated.  Did we fund the purchase of uniforms and equipment?  Sure.  Did we drive them to practice and games?  Yes, but after they obtained a car and license it was up to them to get to practice and games.  And our children were still responsible for their chores.  We didn't slack up in that regard.   We also expected them to do well in the classroom.

We didn't snuggle up to the coach and try to influence him in any way like some parents attempt to do.   We emphasized to our kids you have to prove yourself every day at practice.   Nothing is a given.

I'll agree that parents that do some or all of what you posted are not doing their children any good in the long run.  Especially when they get to college.  As I have posted before college athletics is a dog eat dog world.  If a student-athlete can't perform the minimum expected from the coach, they won't be playing long if at all.  Next man up.

There's quite a few life lessons in traveling the road to college baseball even if you don't reach the ultimate destination.

Great post but for me as a father I try not to over think it.  My son will rise to the challenge or not. 

FoxDad posted:

hsbaseball101 posted:

Seems to me that an athlete would be less prepared than a typical academic.  If he's used to getting everything handed to him, especially being driven to and from baseball practice/lessons, having all equipment, uniforms and lessons paid for by his parents, having to do less chores so that he could have more time to practice, focusing more on his sport rather than other real life issues, and having a parent who would beat up any coach who didn't play him, that's going to set him back for making the adjustment to college.  

 

That's a broad general statement that doesn't apply to all student-athletes.  Many student-athletes are high level students who also excel in the classroom.

I can't speak for all, but we did not "hand" our kids everything as you stated.  Did we fund the purchase of uniforms and equipment?  Sure.  Did we drive them to practice and games?  Yes, but after they obtained a car and license it was up to them to get to practice and games.  And our children were still responsible for their chores.  We didn't slack up in that regard.   We also expected them to do well in the classroom.

We didn't snuggle up to the coach and try to influence him in any way like some parents attempt to do.   We emphasized to our kids you have to prove yourself every day at practice.   Nothing is a given.

I'll agree that parents that do some or all of what you posted are not doing their children any good in the long run.  Especially when they get to college.  As I have posted before college athletics is a dog eat dog world.  If a student-athlete can't perform the minimum expected from the coach, they won't be playing long if at all.  Next man up.

There's quite a few life lessons in traveling the road to college baseball even if you don't reach the ultimate destination.

I was trying to decide whether hsbaseball101 was using humor to maybe point out instances where a parent went about it the wrong way - I certainly hope he was joking.  As is pointed out here many times, baseball should help further certain attributes you want your son to have, not be a replacement or substitute.  There are going to be instances were fewer chores get done, but this should not take away from the ideals of discipline and hard work.  It is hard enough to raise a kid and get them through high school with a good head on their shoulders.  If baseball is used as part of the process, then certain realities will exist (they will need equipment and may not have sufficient free time to gain meaningful employment).  Please don't get me started on parents simply handing over material goods to the kids so they don't feel shortchanged - way too many brand new cars parked in the student parking lot - not talking Honda Civics either.  Whether a kid is truly "spoiled" probably depends more on their values then on what they are provided, but a brand new BMW or F-150 being driven by some sophomore just feels like a too much.

As for the comment about beating up a coach, well that is clearly a joke as all a parent has to do in our program is run their mouth a little too much and the poor kid will never see the field (rightfully so).

Florida State Fan posted:

Great post but for me as a father I try not to over think it.  My son will rise to the challenge or not. 

That's about the best approach that a parent can have. It's really out of our control. Obviously, we provide support but it's up to the kid to figure all of this stuff out.  

When my son was five I allowed him to learn a lesson that wouldn't hurt anything more than his feelings in the short run and help him in the long run. 

He always bugged me for a second ice cream from the truck. I decided to give him his week's ice cream allowance all at once. I gave him money for eight ice creams. I told him he could spend the money whenever he wanted. The money was gone in four days. He was begging me for more money. I told him I already gave him money for eight ice creams that week.  He spent the next three days watching friends eat ice cream.

What he learned was decisions have consequences. The ice cream story still comes up in conversation with my kids (now in their 20's) on how they were raised. 

The kids grew up in a house on the fairway of a country club. They would pick up comments from friends that would make them sound a little full of themselves. I shut it down by suggesting maybe we needed to go live in a row house in a low income town a couple of towns away. I was also very clear there's a difference between what you need and what you want.

Other than having a sports bar for a basement I don't think the kids grew up any different than a typical kid. It was more important to them to play basketball in the driveway and whiffle ball and football in the open space. While a lot of their friends got three year old hand me down expensive cars mine got six year old Civics after junior year.

The academic expectations were always higher than the athletic expectations..

RJM posted:

When my son was five I allowedmhim to,learn a lesson that wouldn't hurt anything more than his feelings in the short run and help him in the long run. 

He always bugged me for a second ice cream from the truck. I decided to give him his week's ice cream allowance all at once. I gave him money for eight ice creams. I told him he could spend the money whenever he wanted. The money was gone in four days. He was begging me for more money. I told him I already gave him money for eight ice creams that week.  He spent the next three days watching friends eat ice cream.

What he learned was decisions have consequences. The ice cream story still comes up in conversation with my kids (now in their 20's) on how they were raised. 

The kids grew up in a house on the fairway of a country club. They would pick up comments from friends that would make them sound a little full of themselves. I shut it down by suggesting maybe we needed to go live in a row house in a low income town a couple of towns away. I was also very clear there's a difference between what you need and what you want.

Other than having a sports bar for a basement I don't think the kids grew up any different than a typical kid. It was more important to them to play basketball in the driveway and whiffle ball and football in the open space. While a lot of their friends got three year old hand me down expensive cars mine got six year old Civics after junior year.

The academic expectations were always higher than the athletic expectations..

I remember that story, although I'm not sure you ever fully explained how the kid was entitled to 8 ice creams each week.  Geez, every kid in the neighborhood got ice cream every day?  What a  life.

If the kids and a parent were home when the truck came they got an ice cream. They were allowed seconds once a week. I never thought about how the other kids were treated by their parents. But given our kids behaved I didn't think an ice cream was spoiling them. I don't consider it an entitlement. Anything our kids had could be removed at any time. Entirlements aren't removed.

Given their conduct growing up there was little need for discipline. My daughter never made a mistake in judgement beyond ending up in a timeout chair as a toddler. My son made one mistake when he was thirteen. His penalty was so much more severe than all of his friends he learned he better not misbehave. In fact, it was so much more severe I paroled him a month early for good behavior. 

But getting back to the ice cream, the point is decisions have consequences and he learned it at an early age without a damaging effect. For reinforcement he got hammered by the philosophy at thirteen.

I humbly apologize for my poor attempt at humor.

" with that  man always being on the look-out for someone better, like a faithless lover who refuses to commit to even the thought of monogamy."

SD, in my view and experience, your perspective is far too narrow to make conclusions such as this.  Many college coaches commit to our sons in ways apparently your son never appreciated or experienced.  Many college coaches are not looking for someone better as a "replacement" until the player they have shows he won't be the player he probably can be (in the eyes of the player and coaching staff- but not on the field).

Think of this from the perspective of the coaches: they have 35 young men ages 18-22 (normally) who they are trying to get to work together toward one goal of winning while also creating an environment for each player to perform at this highest level.  Needless to say, far too many of those 35 are not "buying in" to the program. Some are not even to that level.

On top of the baseball stuff there things like working to keep every player eligible from a classroom perspective, dealing with parents calling at 3am  about their son possibly being "suicidal" (coach finds the player in his room laughing and  doing video games) or having your best players arrested (on the field) on the day before the first game for shoplifting at a campus food store.

It is certainly unfortunate that your son's experience was comes across through incredibly negative comments. 

Coaching 35 or so players to exceed at  levels each has not achieved and as a team they have never achieved takes considerable skill, patience, and persistence. While some coaches succeed because of the level of player they recruit each year, that is the vast minority.

Following the D3 CWS in 2015,   an interview was posted on this site  from a panel of the 3rd place team just after it had been eliminated. The panel included a player who had almost been cut and who hardly ever played in 4 years, but was part of the group chosen to go to Appleton.  That young man's completely off the cuff comments on his teammates, his coaches and the experience was the type which put lumps in throats and tells so much about the other side of the college baseball experience than the one you are trying to convey.

I know from first hand experience that you are just plain wrong with suggesting the following is common place in college athletics:

"Suddenly, there will be no more  "I'll invest in you, if you just invest in yourself."  It's more a matter of  "So what can you do for me kid?" 

For good and successful college coaches, their day is just beginning when practices end and players are heading for to their dorm. For good and successful college coaches, their day begins well before any player ever sets foot on the field, locker room or weight room. College baseball involves 3-4 coaches investing some part of themselves in 35 or so young men.  Each player may not get all they want, but plenty of those players fail to give even that much.

College baseball, in essence, is the process of our sons identifying what the coaches want and then putting in all the time and effort to exceed those expectations. It is being coachable while adapting to being independent and self reliant in an environment which is foreign, competitive and uncomfortable.  It is about understanding nothing which happened before means anything in terms of playing and competing tomorrow.  It then means growing to realize that the success I have tomorrow means nothing in 48 hours when I have to be better again.

.

The good college coaches are going to care about you more than any high school coach.  HS coaches often don't have any access to your records and are discouraged to hound teachers about their players grades.  College coaches are on campus all day and communicate daily with teachers and counselors.  

Whether a kid goes to college and plays baseball (or another sport), goes to college and doesn't play a sport or goes to work the previous eighteen years are supposed to be about raising a kid who is ready for personal responsibility and personal accountability. Some kids get it better than others. Some kids are more ready than others.

The kid playing a sport or who went to work is going to have someone holding him accountable. It's the kid who just heads for college who is really on his own. The first attention he might draw is when he's told not to come back. 

A baseball player being told not to return next year? A commodity? Welcome to the real world!