Teaching spin rate

P.S. Anyone know of a reasonably inexpensive way of getting your spin rate measured?

Anybody that talks about "wrist snap" when it comes to throwing a baseball needs to be avoided like the plague.

       
       
how are you defining wrist snap?  Surely you are not suggesting that the wrist remains stiff throughout the pitching process?

It is basically unknown. We've done a lot of experiments with a Trackman radar as well as colored baseballs with high-speed video and have yet to formulate a decent hypothesis that stands up to evidence.

 

But that won't stop people from making wild guesses and claiming they are right, of course.

 

EDIT: Spin rate is all dependent on what you want the ball to do. Too many people are focused on the gross number and not looking at what it actually imparts RE: movement and deception. Baseball is way more complicated than a single number.

       
       
Thanks for the reply Kyle.  This is cutting edge stuff still.  I am an avid researcher and its great stuff for understanding why certain guys succeed and others don't.   I guess if we can figure out how to manipulate it we will have the holy grail!  As for what I would want to do with it...  like I said before if you could have a high rpm 4 seemer and low rpm 2 seemer that should be best if both worlds right?  And now have you seen the next level of spin research determining how much spin is useful spin?

This!

Takes some high speed video (some smart phones can even have this; e.g. 60FPS) and video tape at the fastest frame rate as possible.  On play back, zoom in and play back slowly and count the time it takes for the ball to make one revolution, then do the math. 

Could be. Trevor Bauer spins his 2sFB faster than his 4sFB I believe (I have the Trackman data, would have to double check). As a result, when it was good - earlier this year - it had insane lateral break. It had the highest combined/total movement of ANY two-seam fastball by a right-handed pitcher. We developed it using the slipstream methods uncovered by Dr. Rod Cross and Dr. Alan Nathan in "discovering a mystery pitch" on The Hardball Times (you can Google that to find the effect).

 

I have a decent grasp on the data. I see reams and reams of raw Trackman data from my MLB jobs as well as the data we collect in-house. But there's nothing definitive. Some ideas, but could very easily be wrong. It's exciting stuff for sure. 

       
       
I truly believe spin rates and spin axis is the key to separating yourself from the pack.  Obviously you have yo have some minimum velocity in the first place but once you are there this will make you special.  How can the average guy get analyzed?  Could it be done by video?  Is this something driveline could offer?  Perhaps you could send me a PM letting me know if you could help, cost etc.

It cannot reliably be done via video. There is more to the spin rate as you alluded to, the axis and trajectory is important as well - not all rates/axes can be generated on all trajectories (due to kinematic variations).

 

You need a Trackman or a PITCHf/x setup. No way around it unfortunately. There are other options in the wings, but realistically 1+ years away.

Doesn't this really get back to feel as your best indicator? A high spinning rate ball feels heavy or heavier when you catch it.  IE the old saying 'that pitcher doesn't throw as hard as the top guy, but he throws a heavy ball'.

       
       
In baseball people often use labels differently.  But my understanding of a 'heavy' ball was always one with less rpm that had some sink to it.  'Rise' would be more 'sneaky fast' as the high rpm induce a lot of swing and miss.

This is super interesting to me. Is any of this Trackman data publicly available?

 

2019Son only throws a two-seamer -- for some reason he's always liked that grip more than the four-seam -- and he gets a lot of armside run and sink (and that can cause trouble when he is playing shortstop!). I'd love to know how spin rate influences lateral and downward movement, just out of curiosity.

       
       
Pure spin - that is back spin or top spin with an axis completely perpendicular to the path of the pitch AND parallel to the geound will not induce any run or tail.  In order to get that the axis has to be on an angle like as in a 1/7 curveball.  Furthermore spin with an axis not perpendicular to the path of the pitch has been found to have a deteriorating percentage of usefulness as the axis becomes more and more off the perpendicular.   I will post a couple articles.  Absolutely fascinating stuff.

http://www.baseballprospectus.....php?articleid=22362

http://spiff.rit.edu/richmond/baseball/traj/traj.html

I really like how this one also talks about trying to get all of your pitches into one window at that key point when the batter is making his decision.  I don't want to put words in anybodys mouth but this may be related to what Kyle addressed when it comes to trajectory.

This is from Dr. Nathan and addresses useful vs. Less useful spin.

http://www.baseballprospectus.....php?articleid=25915

Thanks! This is interesting stuff. Definitely enlightening when thinking about a "rising" fastball or sink. And it seems one of the keys to success is to be different from the norm when it comes to spin rate (e.g. Koji Uehara). Will be fascinating to see if it can be taught.

 

Have you come across any explanation for why it often seems that lefties can't throw the ball straight -- is it just because we're conditioned (with 90% of the throwers being righty) to see the ball move in the other direction?

       
       
I think that combined with the fact there is a lower velocity threshold for lefties meaning there would be more with various angles of spin.  warning 2019 the more you delve into this you will be addicted to researching this topic - and like me looking for the holy grail of how to teach to it.  The original question of this thread as of yet unanswered.  Not that the many knowledgeable people on here don't want to help, I just am not sure we are at that point yet of knowing exactly how to manipulate our spin rate.

Lefties are just weird

 

Not sure there is a real explanation. It is true that if you look at PITCHf/x data, the top fastball movements belong to hard-throwing lefties. For example, Trevor Bauer had the highest total movement 2-seam fastball amongst all righties, but he was 6th in a list when you included lefties (David Price was highest, I think). 

Just got some spin rate info and am trying to decipher.  Fastball spin rates seem to vary widely.  Was wondering if there is a significant difference between 2-seam and 4-seam or is the difference attributed to other factors such as change in the arm slot.

Anybody have experience with a product called RevFire (http://www.revfire.com/a0002.html) ?

 

I just had someone give me one, so I'll start playing with it for fun. Said he bought it 5 or 6 years ago.  I don't expect much, if anything, from it, but figured someone may have figure out a way to get something useful from it.