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Just curious why an organization would take a stacked team of D1 committ d kids to a PG tournament and play them in an age division in which they are all for the most part older (age and grades) and dominate their competition.  Their manager stated they came to Phoenix to allow their players have visibility with scouts in the west. I just don't understand the logic of looking good against players 3 years younger. Play kids your own age and older, the if you look good you are legit.

http://www.perfectgame.org/Art...w.aspx?article=13449

 

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I interpret "Underclass" as 2019-2020...18 D1-committed kids? Why in the world would you want to play them against a tournament field of mostly 2019-2020's? Challenge them, make them walk away saying they were tested this weekend. Two no hitters and outscored opponents 17-0 today tells me they are not playing against the kind of competition that is commensurate with their skill level. Long way to travel for BP.

I guess the teams that play them get a good challenge.

I guess I just thought once you got into HS ball you should be playing against your year group and older, not the opposite.

Last edited by SanDiegoRealist
SanDiegoRealist posted:

I interpret "Underclass" as 2019-2020...18 D1-committed kids? Why in the world would you want to play them against a tournament field of mostly 2019-2020's? Challenge them, make them walk away saying they were tested this weekend. Two no hitters and outscored opponents 17-0 today tells me they are not playing against the kind of competition that is commensurate with their skill level. Long way to travel for BP.

I guess the teams that play them get a good challenge.

I guess I just thought once you got into HS ball you should be playing against your year group and older, not the opposite.

I Agree with going for the more challenging opponents...

According to PG, The age eligibility for the event is 2018 grad and younger so it is interesting that so many 2019s are playing when there is an upperclass event the same weekend. 

I agree with Go44Dad that if you play them there will be lots of people watching so that's a benefit. 

The  team from Arkansas has 4 2019s and the rest 2018s. They probably could have played in the upperclass event with the talent they have on the roster. There is a team from Northern California that has all 2019s playing in the underclass too.

 

PlayWithEffort posted:
SanDiegoRealist posted:

I interpret "Underclass" as 2019-2020...18 D1-committed kids? Why in the world would you want to play them against a tournament field of mostly 2019-2020's? Challenge them, make them walk away saying they were tested this weekend. Two no hitters and outscored opponents 17-0 today tells me they are not playing against the kind of competition that is commensurate with their skill level. Long way to travel for BP.

I guess the teams that play them get a good challenge.

I guess I just thought once you got into HS ball you should be playing against your year group and older, not the opposite.

I Agree with going for the more challenging opponents...

According to PG, The age eligibility for the event is 2018 grad and younger so it is interesting that so many 2019s are playing when there is an upperclass event the same weekend. 

I agree with Go44Dad that if you play them there will be lots of people watching so that's a benefit. 

The  team from Arkansas has 4 2019s and the rest 2018s. They probably could have played in the upperclass event with the talent they have on the roster. There is a team from Northern California that has all 2019s playing in the underclass too.

 

Isn't it a quiet period. Not sure how many "eyes" will be there.  

Golfman25 posted:
PlayWithEffort posted:
SanDiegoRealist posted:

I interpret "Underclass" as 2019-2020...18 D1-committed kids? Why in the world would you want to play them against a tournament field of mostly 2019-2020's? Challenge them, make them walk away saying they were tested this weekend. Two no hitters and outscored opponents 17-0 today tells me they are not playing against the kind of competition that is commensurate with their skill level. Long way to travel for BP.

I guess the teams that play them get a good challenge.

I guess I just thought once you got into HS ball you should be playing against your year group and older, not the opposite.

I Agree with going for the more challenging opponents...

According to PG, The age eligibility for the event is 2018 grad and younger so it is interesting that so many 2019s are playing when there is an upperclass event the same weekend. 

I agree with Go44Dad that if you play them there will be lots of people watching so that's a benefit. 

The  team from Arkansas has 4 2019s and the rest 2018s. They probably could have played in the upperclass event with the talent they have on the roster. There is a team from Northern California that has all 2019s playing in the underclass too.

 

Isn't it a quiet period. Not sure how many "eyes" will be there.  

Heard from a friend there they haven't noticed any at all. May be some pro scouts there, but likely at the upperclass event where there are mostly 2017s.

The one year when it generally makes sense not to play up (in certain events) is this, the rising junior year.  D1 and powerhouse D2 RC's are more interested in seeing the best underclass players than rising HS seniors.  So, in this regard, it makes sense.

I can't account for the effect of all or most already being committed or the quiet period but some of the same principals likely apply to what MLB scouts are looking for...  which of the underclassmen are showing very high early promise and need to be tracked.

FWIW, down the road, your sons will think it is pretty cool that they were on the field with so many high recruits/draft guys...  or maybe be one of them.  It's all good.

Last edited by cabbagedad
Golfman25 posted:
PlayWithEffort posted:
SanDiegoRealist posted:

I interpret "Underclass" as 2019-2020...18 D1-committed kids? Why in the world would you want to play them against a tournament field of mostly 2019-2020's? Challenge them, make them walk away saying they were tested this weekend. Two no hitters and outscored opponents 17-0 today tells me they are not playing against the kind of competition that is commensurate with their skill level. Long way to travel for BP.

I guess the teams that play them get a good challenge.

I guess I just thought once you got into HS ball you should be playing against your year group and older, not the opposite.

I Agree with going for the more challenging opponents...

According to PG, The age eligibility for the event is 2018 grad and younger so it is interesting that so many 2019s are playing when there is an upperclass event the same weekend. 

I agree with Go44Dad that if you play them there will be lots of people watching so that's a benefit. 

The  team from Arkansas has 4 2019s and the rest 2018s. They probably could have played in the upperclass event with the talent they have on the roster. There is a team from Northern California that has all 2019s playing in the underclass too.

 

Isn't it a quiet period. Not sure how many "eyes" will be there.  

Not sure how many would actually be there this time of year but I think coaches can still evaluate off campus during this time for club / travel sportsduring a quiet period. 

 Edit: I had it wrong, quiet period contact must occur on campus.

Last edited by PlayWithEffort

Based on grade, they're not technically "playing down".  The question was based on the fact that almost all of their kids are already committed to a bunch of powerhouse D1's.  He wondered why they wouldn't play up to challenge themselves instead of playing with their own age.  As it turns out it looks like maybe they played where they should have

PGStaff posted:

Not sure how many understand how good the division they played in is.  It could be argued that it was the better division.  Wouldn't a top underclass team want to play in one of the countries top underclass tournaments.

BTW, they finished 2-2 and lost in the first Rd of the playoffs.

I guess it is semantics, if it's still based on age rather than graduation year, I think truth in advertising would lead me to bill it as a 16U tournament. The definition of Underclass is freshman and sophomores, this tournament probably had close to or as many 2018s (upperclassmen) than 2019/2020 players. The teams that went into bracket play and advanced typically were rostered with more upperclassmen than underclassnmen...again, I realize it's about the competition.

Last edited by SanDiegoRealist
SanDiegoRealist posted:
PGStaff posted:

Not sure how many understand how good the division they played in is.  It could be argued that it was the better division.  Wouldn't a top underclass team want to play in one of the countries top underclass tournaments.

BTW, they finished 2-2 and lost in the first Rd of the playoffs.

I guess it is semantics, if it's still based on age rather than graduation year, I think truth in advertising would lead me to bill it as a 16U tournament. The definition of Underclass is freshman and sophomores, this tournament probably had close to or as many 2018s (upperclassmen) than 2019/2020 players. The teams that went into bracket play and advanced typically were rostered with more upperclassmen than underclassnmen...again, I realize it's about the competition.

Actually, SD, "underclassmen" is anyone who is not a senior.  That's probably where some of the confusion comes in.

Some of the best tourney games my 2018 has played in has been against teams where 1/4 of the roster was 2017's.  If the players qualify per the age date, so be it, those kids could have easily been 2018's.  Our team of straight 2018's rose to the occasion in most tourney's and didn't care about it; you play in enough tourney's and it exists.    

A lot of 2017's could very easily been 2018's due to their age.  

Welcome to high end travel ball.

cabbagedad posted:
SanDiegoRealist posted:
PGStaff posted:

Not sure how many understand how good the division they played in is.  It could be argued that it was the better division.  Wouldn't a top underclass team want to play in one of the countries top underclass tournaments.

BTW, they finished 2-2 and lost in the first Rd of the playoffs.

I guess it is semantics, if it's still based on age rather than graduation year, I think truth in advertising would lead me to bill it as a 16U tournament. The definition of Underclass is freshman and sophomores, this tournament probably had close to or as many 2018s (upperclassmen) than 2019/2020 players. The teams that went into bracket play and advanced typically were rostered with more upperclassmen than underclassnmen...again, I realize it's about the competition.

Actually, SD, "underclassmen" is anyone who is not a senior.  That's probably where some of the confusion comes in.

Merriam Webster would disagree with your definition, although there are sources that would agree out there. My understanding (sports or non-sports) has always been frosh/soph is Underclass.

https://www.merriam-webster.co...ionary/underclassman

Gov posted:

Some of the best tourney games my 2018 has played in has been against teams where 1/4 of the roster was 2017's.  If the players qualify per the age date, so be it, those kids could have easily been 2018's.  Our team of straight 2018's rose to the occasion in most tourney's and didn't care about it; you play in enough tourney's and it exists.    

A lot of 2017's could very easily been 2018's due to their age.  

Welcome to high end travel ball.

I get it, trust me. 

It is "sort of" based on age, right? It finally dawned on me that you can have 2018s who are doing a "prep year" and may be 19 almost 20 years old. My son is a "late" 2018, born in Sept 1999. In spite of that fact he was still one of the younger on his 16U roster. Please correct me if I'm off base. I have not been to a tourney where they actually checked birth certificates.

SanDiegoRealist posted:
cabbagedad posted:
SanDiegoRealist posted:
 

Actually, SD, "underclassmen" is anyone who is not a senior.  That's probably where some of the confusion comes in.

Merriam Webster would disagree with your definition, although there are sources that would agree out there. My understanding (sports or non-sports) has always been frosh/soph is Underclass.

https://www.merriam-webster.co...ionary/underclassman

Huh, your right SD, some of both on the definition.  Weird, the other day when I replied, I looked it up to check myself and I got mostly my version.  Now, I look it up and I get mostly your version.  Learn something new every day.  

 

It's a weird thing, transitioning to "year group" baseball from age group. There are always studs who will want/need to play with older players. The point I was trying to make was that 2018s really aren't competing in the same recruiting pool as 2019s, 2019s not competing with 2020s etc...although I know someone on here will tell me different. It's like car shopping and looking at a Smart Car and comparison shopping it against a Ford F-350. They aren't the same product, should not be comparing the two of them. 

Bottom line, they went to a tournament with a team of mostly 2018s, and that particular tournament had mostly 2018s and 2019s in it (there was a separate division for 2020s, and a separate division for 2017s). And they went 2-2, losing in the first round of the bracket. I'm sure there are plenty of examples where a stacked team dominates their inferior competition. But this doesn't appear to be one of them.

It is true that underclass typically means sophomore and freshman, but in the PG world, these types of events break down into a senior tournament, a freshman tournament, and a sophomore/junior tournament. At least that's what it looks like to me.

Could be that they went 2-2 because they took the approach that winning doesn't matter and that they wanted to get as many kids exposure as possible.  Not saying they wanted to loose, but they may have pitched differently then they normally would to get a kid seen by a certain coach, or may have substituted when they normally would not have because a certain coach asked to see a specific player. 

A lot of your programs built for recruiting will take this approach depending on the circumstances. 

joes87 posted:

Could be that they went 2-2 because they took the approach that winning doesn't matter and that they wanted to get as many kids exposure as possible.  Not saying they wanted to loose, but they may have pitched differently then they normally would to get a kid seen by a certain coach, or may have substituted when they normally would not have because a certain coach asked to see a specific player. 

A lot of your programs built for recruiting will take this approach depending on the circumstances. 

It's a quiet period, though. Shouldn't have been any coaches even there

SanDiegoRealist posted:

In this age of "year-round" baseball, is anyone really not ready to go? I know position players probably tend to play more during the "off season" than a pitcher, but I honestly don't see high-level players in this area completely shutting down any more.

I agree on the "knowing your players" aspect of your post though.

A lot of guys from that team were just coming out of football.  Two of their top arms just ended their football season, one didn't pitch and the other threw two pitches.  Pretty common for guys to be off from August through December for football around here.      

d-mac posted:
SanDiegoRealist posted:

In this age of "year-round" baseball, is anyone really not ready to go? I know position players probably tend to play more during the "off season" than a pitcher, but I honestly don't see high-level players in this area completely shutting down any more.

I agree on the "knowing your players" aspect of your post though.

A lot of guys from that team were just coming out of football.  Two of their top arms just ended their football season, one didn't pitch and the other threw two pitches.  Pretty common for guys to be off from August through December for football around here.      

Interesting, I don't know any college prospect level baseball players who still play another sport. 

SanDiegoRealist posted:
d-mac posted:
SanDiegoRealist posted:

In this age of "year-round" baseball, is anyone really not ready to go? I know position players probably tend to play more during the "off season" than a pitcher, but I honestly don't see high-level players in this area completely shutting down any more.

I agree on the "knowing your players" aspect of your post though.

A lot of guys from that team were just coming out of football.  Two of their top arms just ended their football season, one didn't pitch and the other threw two pitches.  Pretty common for guys to be off from August through December for football around here.      

Interesting, I don't know any college prospect level baseball players who still play another sport. 

One of the kids off of that team is committed as a two sport player.  Two others have multiple baseball and football offers.  Those are just the kids that I know of.  Football is big in the South so there are a lot of kids that play football and baseball.    

A few things...

This was clearly stated on the tournament signup page

Age Eligibility: 2018 Graduate or younger.

Perhaps by strict definition a 2018 should not be considered an underclassman, in this tournament everyone entered knew what age bracket or class it was. The Upperclass eligibility was 2017 or younger.  Perhaps the wording should have left out Upper or Underclass, but false advertising? No not at all!  In our summer WWBA and BCS tournaments they are listed as 18u, 17u, 16u, 15u, and so on. When we do underclass showcases it includes any player that is not in their senior year of HS or not in their draft eligible year.  There has never been a complaint about these age divisions before this? But I suppose it is a reasonable concern, so we will simply drop the Upperclass, Underclass titles in the future just to make it less confusing.

The team in question had a lot of talent.  They could have won the championship.  Of the four games they played they lost two games by one run and they won one game by one run.  They didn't play against a bunch of young neighborhood teams. San Diego Show won the tournament.  Lots of very good teams! Northeast Baseball won the Upperclass.  All three tournaments were excellent for the most part.

Once again it seems like people don't understand the quiet period.  Obviously it is better if the college coaches could be there.  However, I don't think some people understand how closely they follow these things. First of all, just because they aren't there doesn't mean they don't have eyes there.  And even if they don't have eyes there, they have our people there.  And our people gather information from every player in every game.  We are first and foremost a scouting service!  We don't miss many good players and we report to colleges and MLB scouting departments.  Our phones get very busy after quiet period events.  Yes, it's best if they are there, but this is second best!  Let's think about this, there are many early commitments, don't you think their future college coach would want to know what we saw?  Don't you think college coaches would want to know what we saw among other uncommitted players?

Quick story from the past.  I once saw in Nebraska a HS pitcher from Kansas throw two innings in a tournament.  We had never even heard of the kid and other than his travel coach it seemed no one really knew about him.  It was the only two inings he threw in the tournament.  Anyway, he threw 90-92 that day, but it was the prettiest 92 I had ever seen with plus plus life and he could also really spin the curve ball.  He was 6-4/200 or so.  There was very little doubt in my mind that he could throw harder and for sure would in the future.  

We sent that report to MLB clubs and many of the top colleges.  I wasn't there the next time he pitched, but was told there were over 40 scouts including several MLB scouting directors and many Crosscheckers at that game and he was up to 95 that day. The following spring he went early in the draft and signed for a lot of money.  Before that he had committed to a national power college.  His career, like so many, ended by injury.  

Point is, there weren't any MLB teams or college recruiters that saw him that first time.  Word travels like wild fire in baseball. And to be blunt, we are responsible for most of it when it comes to amateur baseball.  That is what we have been doing for over 20 years. We are far from perfect or geniuses, we just have the biggest scouting department and the most information contained in, by far, the largest database of amateur players in the world. Kind of simple, we see more players than anyone. And just from our own events that includes nearly a thousand that have made the Big Leagues and most of the players drafted in the first 200 picks.  It doesn't make us that special... Anyone reading this would be pretty good at picking out players if they could have seen that much talent over the years. The more you see, the more certain things other than the obvious standout.

Very sorry if this sounds like bragging.  Sometimes it is just hard to explain things.

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