Tebow

LOL!  I copied and pasted you statement without changes.  You clearly stated, "He is, at best, a publicity stunt."

I am beginning to wonder if you know what Non-falsifiable means.  I most certainly do.

Every player on a roster by necessity takes a spot from someone else.  The assertion of the argument your parroting is that someone has been unfairly denied a spot on a roster.  I want to know who that person is instead of this nebulous, "I'm sure, that I'm, sure that I'm sure, that someone is being cheated of a spot" claim.

I am glad that we can be in agreement that knowing where to warm up is not the only criteria for being a prospect.  Maybe we can stop bringing it up, since it really has very little to do with ability.

Teaching Elder posted:

LOL!  I copied and pasted you statement without changes.  You clearly stated, "He is, at best, a publicity stunt."

I am beginning to wonder if you know what Non-falsifiable means.  I most certainly do.

Every player on a roster by necessity takes a spot from someone else.  The assertion of the argument your parroting is that someone has been unfairly denied a spot on a roster.  I want to know who that person is instead of this nebulous, "I'm sure, that I'm, sure that I'm sure, that someone is being cheated of a spot" claim.

I am glad that we can be in agreement that knowing where to warm up is not the only criteria for being a prospect.  Maybe we can stop bringing it up, since it really has very little to do with ability.

Then why didn't you copy the whole thing?

Also, not knowing where to warm up is indicative of not knowing other things. It's no different than using the wrong font or misspellings in a paper--it calls into question what other things are missed.

The Mets cut this guy last October.  And this one. And this one.  All more successful and younger than Tebow's been so far, and presumably a dime a dozen. It's essentially a given that someone similar is at least losing development time*, if not an actual roster spot, to Tebow at this point.

 

* I mean, the Mets could just be keeping him around to sell jerseys and not actually cutting some schmo earning $1K month to make up for the $100K they have invested in Tebow, but there's only so many PAs to go around, so every PA Tebow gets is one a Stefan Sabol doesn't. Not that it matters all that much, since the Stefan Sabols and Tim Tebows of the world are effectively an unlimited resource, as far as MLB teams needing that level of talent are concerned.

jacjacatk posted:

The Mets cut this guy last October.  And this one. And this one.  All more successful and younger than Tebow's been so far, and presumably a dime a dozen. It's essentially a given that someone similar is at least losing development time*, if not an actual roster spot, to Tebow at this point.

 

* I mean, the Mets could just be keeping him around to sell jerseys and not actually cutting some schmo earning $1K month to make up for the $100K they have invested in Tebow, but there's only so many PAs to go around, so every PA Tebow gets is one a Stefan Sabol doesn't. Not that it matters all that much, since the Stefan Sabols and Tim Tebows of the world are effectively an unlimited resource, as far as MLB teams needing that level of talent are concerned.

The Mets believe that Tebow was better for their business. They think 6'3" 235 lb super fast and strong Tebow was a business better risk than the 5'11" 200 lb guys they saw play for the last few years. I don't get where this is unfair, these guys all got their shot.  There is no right of equal chances in this world. If he is bad they will cut him as well. I am assuming Tebow and two other players are now taking the ABs these guys used to get. 

Ja'Crispy posted:
jacjacatk posted:

The Mets cut this guy last October.  And this one. And this one.  All more successful and younger than Tebow's been so far, and presumably a dime a dozen. It's essentially a given that someone similar is at least losing development time*, if not an actual roster spot, to Tebow at this point.

 

* I mean, the Mets could just be keeping him around to sell jerseys and not actually cutting some schmo earning $1K month to make up for the $100K they have invested in Tebow, but there's only so many PAs to go around, so every PA Tebow gets is one a Stefan Sabol doesn't. Not that it matters all that much, since the Stefan Sabols and Tim Tebows of the world are effectively an unlimited resource, as far as MLB teams needing that level of talent are concerned.

The Mets believe that Tebow was better for their business. They think 6'3" 235 lb super fast and strong Tebow was a business better risk than the 5'11" 200 lb guys they saw play for the last few years. I don't get where this is unfair, these guys all got their shot.  There is no right of equal chances in this world. If he is bad they will cut him as well. I am assuming Tebow and two other players are now taking the ABs these guys used to get. 

Except that it's possible (likely, even) that the decisions regarding Tebow are money, not performance, driven. Which is fine, of course, it is a business, but the idea that Tebow is somehow a better baseball bet than the randoms whose playing time he's now getting is pretty thin. The truth of the matter is that all of them, Tebow included, are the ultimate fungible baseball talent, but it's a lot easier to market Tebow.

jacjacatk posted:
Ja'Crispy posted:
jacjacatk posted:

The Mets cut this guy last October.  And this one. And this one.  All more successful and younger than Tebow's been so far, and presumably a dime a dozen. It's essentially a given that someone similar is at least losing development time*, if not an actual roster spot, to Tebow at this point.

 

* I mean, the Mets could just be keeping him around to sell jerseys and not actually cutting some schmo earning $1K month to make up for the $100K they have invested in Tebow, but there's only so many PAs to go around, so every PA Tebow gets is one a Stefan Sabol doesn't. Not that it matters all that much, since the Stefan Sabols and Tim Tebows of the world are effectively an unlimited resource, as far as MLB teams needing that level of talent are concerned.

The Mets believe that Tebow was better for their business. They think 6'3" 235 lb super fast and strong Tebow was a business better risk than the 5'11" 200 lb guys they saw play for the last few years. I don't get where this is unfair, these guys all got their shot.  There is no right of equal chances in this world. If he is bad they will cut him as well. I am assuming Tebow and two other players are now taking the ABs these guys used to get. 

Except that it's possible (likely, even) that the decisions regarding Tebow are money, not performance, driven. Which is fine, of course, it is a business, but the idea that Tebow is somehow a better baseball bet than the randoms whose playing time he's now getting is pretty thin. The truth of the matter is that all of them, Tebow included, are the ultimate fungible baseball talent, but it's a lot easier to market Tebow.

Of course that is possible (not likely), but you have to jump through too many hoops and make too many assumptions to get at that.  The simplest explanation is that they want/wanted him to succeed and will make their money off of his success. 

Ja'Crispy posted:
jacjacatk posted:
Ja'Crispy posted:
jacjacatk posted:

The Mets cut this guy last October.  And this one. And this one.  All more successful and younger than Tebow's been so far, and presumably a dime a dozen. It's essentially a given that someone similar is at least losing development time*, if not an actual roster spot, to Tebow at this point.

 

* I mean, the Mets could just be keeping him around to sell jerseys and not actually cutting some schmo earning $1K month to make up for the $100K they have invested in Tebow, but there's only so many PAs to go around, so every PA Tebow gets is one a Stefan Sabol doesn't. Not that it matters all that much, since the Stefan Sabols and Tim Tebows of the world are effectively an unlimited resource, as far as MLB teams needing that level of talent are concerned.

The Mets believe that Tebow was better for their business. They think 6'3" 235 lb super fast and strong Tebow was a business better risk than the 5'11" 200 lb guys they saw play for the last few years. I don't get where this is unfair, these guys all got their shot.  There is no right of equal chances in this world. If he is bad they will cut him as well. I am assuming Tebow and two other players are now taking the ABs these guys used to get. 

Except that it's possible (likely, even) that the decisions regarding Tebow are money, not performance, driven. Which is fine, of course, it is a business, but the idea that Tebow is somehow a better baseball bet than the randoms whose playing time he's now getting is pretty thin. The truth of the matter is that all of them, Tebow included, are the ultimate fungible baseball talent, but it's a lot easier to market Tebow.

Of course that is possible (not likely), but you have to jump through too many hoops and make too many assumptions to get at that.  The simplest explanation is that they want/wanted him to succeed and will make their money off of his success. 

Why make that assumption about Tebow, when the vast majority of players signed by MLB clubs are signed in the full knowledge that they aren't going to ever amount to anything, and the money the teams expect to ultimately make from them doesn't have anything to do directly with their individual success?

 

FYI, this is what $150K buys you in the draft. Gene Cone.

By the time a player reaches the AA or AAA level, been drafted originally by that team, an investment has been made by both parties. The player is not just another guy who isnt going to amount to anything. He has a legitimate chance to reach a 40 man roster.

For many players, they work hard the last season to get to play at a spring training game because this is the only time that the manager and coaches get to see a mil guy play. Its important, I know many dont get that.

Heres another thought, maybe if the Mets drafted better they would have much better options!

 

jacjacatk posted:
Ja'Crispy posted:
jacjacatk posted:
Ja'Crispy posted:
jacjacatk posted:

The Mets cut this guy last October.  And this one. And this one.  All more successful and younger than Tebow's been so far, and presumably a dime a dozen. It's essentially a given that someone similar is at least losing development time*, if not an actual roster spot, to Tebow at this point.

 

* I mean, the Mets could just be keeping him around to sell jerseys and not actually cutting some schmo earning $1K month to make up for the $100K they have invested in Tebow, but there's only so many PAs to go around, so every PA Tebow gets is one a Stefan Sabol doesn't. Not that it matters all that much, since the Stefan Sabols and Tim Tebows of the world are effectively an unlimited resource, as far as MLB teams needing that level of talent are concerned.

The Mets believe that Tebow was better for their business. They think 6'3" 235 lb super fast and strong Tebow was a business better risk than the 5'11" 200 lb guys they saw play for the last few years. I don't get where this is unfair, these guys all got their shot.  There is no right of equal chances in this world. If he is bad they will cut him as well. I am assuming Tebow and two other players are now taking the ABs these guys used to get. 

Except that it's possible (likely, even) that the decisions regarding Tebow are money, not performance, driven. Which is fine, of course, it is a business, but the idea that Tebow is somehow a better baseball bet than the randoms whose playing time he's now getting is pretty thin. The truth of the matter is that all of them, Tebow included, are the ultimate fungible baseball talent, but it's a lot easier to market Tebow.

Of course that is possible (not likely), but you have to jump through too many hoops and make too many assumptions to get at that.  The simplest explanation is that they want/wanted him to succeed and will make their money off of his success. 

Why make that assumption about Tebow, when the vast majority of players signed by MLB clubs are signed in the full knowledge that they aren't going to ever amount to anything, and the money the teams expect to ultimately make from them doesn't have anything to do directly with their individual success?

 

FYI, this is what $150K buys you in the draft. Gene Cone.

The Mets gave Gene Cone $150k to play low A, the Mets gave $100k to Tebow to try to do something, that is what the market priced them out as and both probably really mean nothing to them right now.  So what? He is a low risk opportunity, I have been saying that all along.  People in business take flyers all the time, nobody makes any plans off of them but if they pan out you are happy.  The Wilpons are more concerned about how the Fed raising interest rates this year will effect their commercial real estate business. 

I have made no assumptions about Tebow.  He is an elite athlete. The Mets kept him in the system and cut others. Those are facts.  Elite athletes get more chances to prove they can't play. The only assumptions being made are that this is a crazy get our Madoff money back scheme to bring up Tebow right away to MLB so the Wilpons can sell Tebow 15 jerseys to silly bible thumpers who would do absolutely anything for Tebow.  Even better bring him to Florida so he can sell out some small minor league park with his 3-4 ABs a night and we can make a mint off of hot dogs and beer. All problems would then be solved.

My point is usually when people rail against Tebow there is another agenda they are trying to get across and it isn't really the athlete Tebow they don't like. Why make up fairy tales just say what you like or don't like about the guy? I think I have always rooted against the teams he was on and hoped he failed miserably when he played, but he seems like a really decent guy, definitely a leader to accomplish what he has, and is definitely an unbelievable athlete.

Weren't the Mets in the WS two years ago with a few pitchers that were draft picks?

13 pages on Tebow. More than any other MLB topic. Kind of speaks volumes doesn't it?  $100,000 is a drop in the bucket for MLB clubs.  There are times that they end up wasting millions on a player.

When Tebow is done with baseball we would gladly pay him $100,000 to work for us.  He has a lot to offer to children and athletes.

My view of Tebow is simple. He appears to be a nice guy based on things I've read and seen on tv. He was a great college quarterback. He had limited success as an NFL QB based on eliminating 90% of the playbook and playing a string of below average or injury ravaged teams.

Once the Patriots defense (ranked 30th at the time) made halftime adjustments on Tebow they shut him down. Other teams used the same strategy. Tebow finished 1-5 that year including a 45-7 thrashing the second time around in the playoffs against the Patriots and their terrible defense. 

My gripe isn't against Tebow. Its against those who are too blind to see what happened in the NFL and believe Tebow was religiously persecuted out of the NFL. These people should go to a game and look at midfield after a game. They would see about fifty players on their knees praying. I have to think John Elway knows something about quarterbacks. He knew the Broncos weren't going anywhere with Tebow. 

If Tebow really wanted to become an NFL quarterback he should have gone to the CFL and developed with playing time. It worked for Moon, Theismann and Flutie to name a few. If nothing else he might have become one of the CFL greats with his athleticism, the field size and the rules..

I 100% believe the Mets signing Tebow is a publicity and headline grab versus the Yankees in the New York media. Signing him made no sense otherwise. What he will do for attendance for the franchise owned Low A minor league team is gravy. But they couldn't have dreamed up a better attendance grabbing promotion.

I don't see how you could say he's taking a spot from another more deserving.  There were over 8000 players signed drafted/undrafted starting from 2010 when Tebow last played in college.  He didn't take a spot from any of those players though.  Last year, Nearly 10,000 former all-state, all-american, 90+ throwing, 50+ throwing, rock hauling, cattle herding, 18yo HS dropouts, 50yo coaches attended open tryouts for MLB and less than 100 of them got a contract.  Either hitting 90 or hitting bombs will get you noticed.  Tebow hit bombs and got noticed.  For a typical MiLB contract, any team would've signed him, but only the Mets were willing to give him some real money.  

Once again, I am talking about taking a spot of another player already in the organization, not one of those players that attends the Mets open try out cattle calls.

He is a great guy, no doubt. I agree with RJM, if he really wanted a career in football he would have made it his business to go to the CFL to improve.

It really doesnt matter, the experiment wont last forever.

 

 

Yeah but the player whos spot he's taking is going to get cut to make room for the open tryouts guy.  Both of them are only signed to throw batting practice anyway, with the open tryouts guy simply being a new look, but basically they get rid of the BP thrower, don't sign the open tryouts guy and move up the ball boy to throw BP so they could sign Tebow.  

RJM posted:

My view of Tebow is simple. He appears to be a nice guy based on things I've read and seen on tv. He was a great college quarterback. He had limited success as an NFL QB based on eliminating 90% of the playbook and playing a string of below average or injury ravaged teams.

Once the Patriots defense (ranked 30th at the time) made halftime adjustments on Tebow they shut him down. Other teams used the same strategy. Tebow finished 1-5 that year including a 45-7 thrashing the second time around in the playoffs against the Patriots and their terrible defense. 

My gripe isn't against Tebow. Its against those who are too blind to see what happened in the NFL and believe Tebow was religiously persecuted out of the NFL. These people should go to a game and look at midfield after a game. They would see about fifty players on their knees praying. I have to think John Elway knows something about quarterbacks. He knew the Broncos weren't going anywhere with Tebow. 

If Tebow really wanted to become an NFL quarterback he should have gone to the CFL and developed with playing time. It worked for Moon, Theismann and Flutie to name a few. If nothing else he might have become one of the CFL greats with his athleticism, the field size and the rules..

I 100% believe the Mets signing Tebow is a publicity and headline grab versus the Yankees in the New York media. Signing him made no sense otherwise. What he will do for attendance for the franchise owned Low A minor league team is gravy. But they couldn't have dreamed up a better attendance grabbing promotion.

Very well put IMHO.

For any player to be on any roster, someone is going to get bumped. New prospects come in and other guys go out and people will debate who was deserving and who was was "cheated."  Usually it will be the player, his family, his girlfriend and maybe one or two other friends who are making the claim.  The world is full of bitter guys who didn't "get a fair shake by baseball brass."  I guess it is a coping mechanism once reality sets in and the game one has devoted so much time and so many dreams to has ended.  I feel for them.  

   Some guy who signed for $25k out of his senior year of college and tore up low-A ball will swear he was done wrong because he never got a shot at AA, while a guy who signed out of high school for $4.5M, but didn't have the same results in low-A ball, quickly made it through the ranks, and got chance after chance after chance.  This happens every day.  In the end, clubs will decide for themselves what they thing is best for their program.

At some point maybe we will note that we can agree to disagree and let a thread that has basically turned into your opinion vs. my opinion fade away and stop cluttering our inboxes.

I don't think this is about whether Tebow is good enough or not.  It is a pure business decision and it tells you that there is money to be made for minor league owners as well as major league owners.  Assume Tebow's 100k bonus and amortize that over 70 home minor league games which is about $1500 per game.  Assume the average minor league ticket is 10.00.  Tebow only needs to bring in an extra  150 people per game to break even and that does not include all the money they will make off of concessions associated with the 150/game. 

I am guessing that all minor league owners already know how much revenue increased when Michael Jordan played for example, and they have used that information to factor in Tebow who - although not quite as big a name as Jordan, is still a very big name nonetheless.  It doesn't seem a stretch at all to me to believe that Tebow will draw well over 150 people per game over what they would have gotten without him on the roster.      

PGStaff posted:

13 pages on Tebow. More than any other MLB topic. Kind of speaks volumes doesn't it?  $100,000 is a drop in the bucket for MLB clubs.  There are times that they end up wasting millions on a player.

When Tebow is done with baseball we would gladly pay him $100,000 to work for us.  He has a lot to offer to children and athletes.

Bingo,.. the value he brings to kids and community.  Dollars are there...

joemktg posted:

Tebow to Columbia Fireflies (Sally League). Oh those Gamecock fans will love that UF grad.

You sound like you don't think Gamecock fans will treat him with courtesy and class.  ;-)  Not a Tebow fan, but I have no doubt he will show more class than they will.

MTH posted:
joemktg posted:

Tebow to Columbia Fireflies (Sally League). Oh those Gamecock fans will love that UF grad.

You sound like you don't think Gamecock fans will treat him with courtesy and class.  ;-)  Not a Tebow fan, but I have no doubt he will show more class than they will.

Way to set the bar high, relying on the class of Gamecocks fans.  :-)  (Grew up one, but one of 3 people in my HS class not to graduate from there).

Consultant posted:

Question: what famous actor, also played in the NBA and MLB?

"True Story" My former MSU teammate, Tom Yewcic also played for the Detroit Tigers and New England Patriots.

Bob

I know... and he was 6'6", which was quite big back then when he was wielding a rifle.    Also drafted in the NFL, the guy's story is amazing.

Consultant posted:

Question: what famous actor, also played in the NBA and MLB?

"True Story" My former MSU teammate, Tom Yewcic also played for the Detroit Tigers and New England Patriots.

Bob

Chuck Conners, The Rifleman. 

Back in that era Dave Debussure (most know for Pistons and Knicks) played both. Ron Reed (mostly known for Braves and Phillies) also played both. DeBussure had a 2.91 ERA in 36 apppearances before passing on baseball. Reed averaged 7 points per game in two NBA seasons.

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